In this special year-in-review episode of CLOC Talk, host Oyango Snell is joined by Australian legal ops leaders Anna Golovsky, Petra Sterling, and Matthew Duncan to reflect on the milestones, momentum, and lessons that shaped the Australian Legal Ops community in 2025—and to preview what’s ahead in 2026. Together, they explore how a “small but mighty” community is driving real impact through practical innovation, peer collaboration, and honest case studies.

The conversation covers AI adoption and upskilling, spend and vendor management, CLM implementation, data governance, and knowledge management (“curate or wait”), along with the realities of law-firm collaboration and operating in highly regulated environments. They also discuss why ROI-focused AI use cases, mentoring, and community-led learning remain essential—and how Australia’s market dynamics can help influence the global legal ops conversation in the year to come.

Welcome to Clock Talk, the podcast

where we explore the people, the

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ideas and innovations shaping

the future of legal operations.

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I'm your host, ol Yel Snell, and today

we're taking a moment to look back at

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2025 and peek ahead to what's next for

the Australian Legal Ops community.

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Joining me are three incredible,

awesome dynamic leaders driving

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change across the region.

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Anna GSKi, Petra Sterling,

and Matthew Duncan.

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Welcome back to Clock Talk.

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Thanks, yca.

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Good to be here.

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Look, guys, Australia saw strong

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I mean, everybody saw it on, on socials.

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The people who were there in Australia

got a chance to witness it firsthand.

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Let's start right there.

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What were some of the biggest wins or

milestones in your region this year?

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And Anna, I'm gonna kick it off with you.

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Thank you.

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Well, I'm gonna start straight away

with our clock community because I think

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that is the biggest win for me in legal

operations in Australia, our community.

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We said on a clock podcast a couple of

years ago that our community was small

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but mighty and it remains relevant

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that we had three quarterly meetings.

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We had a clock summit in the middle of

the year, which was another fabulous

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event, bringing our community together

from across Australia, including 12

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international guests from regions

close to Australia, including

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Singapore and Hong Kong and Japan.

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We had a clock showcase at

the law, tech, and innovation.

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Tech fest where we shared

our clock insights.

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We had a clock after hours dinner in

Melbourne for our Melbourne community

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because our summit had been in Sydney.

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It, it was a great dinner.

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It was sponsored by Harvey.

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So I think the connection, the

collaboration, and the content of our

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clock community is the biggest win for me.

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Let your add to that, but also

for folks who don't know, explain

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kind of what you mean when, when,

when Anna says small but mighty.

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Because not a lot of people know

how small, large, or small or medium

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sized, rather the Australian regional

community is compared to the United

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States or other regions around the globe.

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Great question, ao.

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So, in Australia, we see about

200 people a year at our summit,

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and that's a, a very healthy size.

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I would say actually my legal team is

200 lawyers, so we got scope to get

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larger, but what we do have in that

group is strong voices, strong opinions.

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I'm looking at you, Matt Duncan.

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Fantastic ideas and

genuine drive for change.

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Many of our legal ops gurus are

able to innovate in their companies

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in the most incredible way.

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So we've heard from.

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People from Sydney Uni, from NBN,

which is our National Broadband Network

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here in Australia and others about

some spectacular tech and process and

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cost innovation, which is one of my

favorite topics throughout the year.

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So it is not a huge team actually.

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How many people do you have

in the States in clock?

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Ao, here's the tricky question, Amy.

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Quickly look it up in the background.

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Lot more than two's.

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A lot.

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Yeah.

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See, I'm the new girl on the

block right here, so I'll be

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meeting you all at CGI next year.

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It's very exciting.

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Yes, I'm looking forward to it.

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I'm looking forward to

seeing you in the flesh.

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Matt, give us some of your insights

here and also pointing out maybe

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some of the ROI or visibility

of Australian initiatives.

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Well, just to quickly to add to what

Ventra and n have said, the, the thing

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that was exciting, I think for all of

us this year as well, was the growth of

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new members in the Australian community,

particularly at the Australia Summit.

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So it was really pleasing.

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This is, you know, we, we, we've done

that a couple of times now, but what

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was really pleasing to see was a whole

range of new faces in the room and.

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That was pleasing for all of us.

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'cause it means that not only sort of

the, those that have been around the

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traps for a little while could sort of

reconnect, but also some of the newer

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faces that were getting into it, seeing

as a career opportunity, understanding

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their role inside their organizations

where there was chance for them to grow

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in their careers was really exciting.

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So.

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It meant that some of the things that

we're doing were right and it was kind

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of really infusing to use the same

word again in terms of ROI, I'll even,

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one of the best examples, I don't,

don't wanna steal Anna's thunder, but

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I think some of the presentations that

she gave at the summit around specific

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initiatives that were really making

an impact in their own organization.

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I, we do hear stories about that from

different people in the ecosystem

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about the things that they've done

from the legal ops perspective inside

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their corporate, that the shifting

the dial for their organization,

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those stories were always in.

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Exciting to hear, and

they're different cost.

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Innovation from Petra's point of view or

deployment of AI in another area, or just

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simply, you know, hygiene initiatives,

deployment of manner management, document

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management spend, management systems,

people meeting the ecosystem where they're

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at, and getting help and support from

other people doing the same thing, or

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insights from where they've done that.

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Well, I mean, for members, that's

been something that's been really

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beneficial in the Aussie ecosystem.

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Just connecting with people that have

done the same thing before or, you know,

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sharpening up what they're doing now.

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I don't think you stole

Nana Thunder at all.

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I think you set her up, you know,

you like basketball, you threw Ali

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hoop and now she's ready to take it.

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And what were some of those other

things that stood out for you?

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Because you heard Matt talk about the,

you know, the infamous AI in innovation

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and technology enhancements and different

things like that, but I'm sure there were.

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Other things other than salsa dancing,

which I am so disappointed that I missed

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out on because I know my way around

a salsa marengo bachata dance floor.

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I'm just gonna let you know that.

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Okay, you and I have a date at CGR.

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Alright.

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There it is.

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There it is.

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So in, in true form, we surveyed our

members at the beginning of the year.

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As to, you know, what are

their priorities for the year?

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And there were four key focuses.

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It was AI adoption and upskilling.

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No surprises.

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And I think that we certainly

have as a community tested and

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learned across the year and.

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I, for one, have certainly gone on

a real journey of learning about the

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implementation of AI in spend management.

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So I've implemented a program where

I'm scrutinizing all of our external

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invoices through a bespoke designed

AI spend management platform.

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So that has been a, you know,

a significant learning curve as

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we've learned about how to create

your model, train your model.

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Onboard law firms, put law firms through

the change management of now having

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invoices scrutinized from leveraging AI

and working out, you know, the tolerances

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of what the law firms can manage and

how we bring them along this journey.

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Other priorities for the year that we

identified with CLM implementations.

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And that goes to Matt's point about

that sort of, that hygiene factor.

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And, and obviously as legal

ops professionals we're always

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got one hand on hygiene and

another hand on, on innovation.

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Big focus was on data management,

looking at our data and making sure

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that we're not, our organizations are

not holding more data than we need.

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Our legal departments are not

holding more data than we need.

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Automating retention and disposition,

trying to curate and start to curate

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our data, you know, as part of our

knowledge management strategies.

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And then another key focus is vendor

management, managing our law firms,

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managing our spend, managing performance,

but building KPIs, running RFPs.

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They were the focuses that we learned

that our community was focusing on in 25.

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Yeah.

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You know what I love about legal ops is

we're all tackling the very same issues.

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Rather it's CLM management or document

retention or training and skilling up

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or AI innovation as well as integration.

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But everybody is approaching it from

a different lens, especially when you

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look at the, you know, various regions.

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And Petra, was there some community

project or any other discussions

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that came from the survey that Anna

mentioned that jumped out for you?

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There are so many, but let me just

pick one and it's hard for me to

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pick one 'cause they're so exciting.

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Yeah.

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When we met last with our clock community

in Sydney and Melbourne, just ahead of

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the dinner that Anna mentioned, we had a

long conversation about curate or wait.

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And what we mean by that is it

old school knowledge management

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is coming back to the fore as.

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The necessary precondition to any AI

effectiveness as an organization and

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certainly as a legal team, and our vendors

are telling us that we can do it for you.

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Now you've got, in my case,

six terabytes of data.

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We'll go find the gold in that for you.

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No problem whatsoever.

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Just let us into your shop

and we will curate it for you.

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And the reality is that we are not sure

that that's going to happen just yet.

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So we had, I think Matt and Anna didn't

we, a really robust conversation about.

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That touched on tools and process

and the human challenges and human

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opportunities that you have, particularly

in house where you don't have knowledge

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lawyers typically speaking or not

in the Australia region in any case.

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So that was, I think, a fascinating

conversation that touched on ai, but

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went well beyond the who's using what?

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What are your main use cases?

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What vendors do you like and are your

firms giving you any benefits yet?

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I'd love to talk about firm

benefits, but we'll go back there.

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I'm sure y go.

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This reminds me of, I was talking with

our folks in the German region and one

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of the things that really stood out for

them as far as this year and going as

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they get ready to launch and going forward

is sort of those practical, realistic.

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Components, those real

life examples, right?

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That those case studies, for lack of a

better explanation of things that they

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can really look at, examine and share,

which is what our community is known for.

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Matt, I'm a seventies kid and Petra talked

about bringing that old school back.

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I'm seeing a lot of old school stuff kind

of get reinvented, rather it's on social

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or music or different things like that.

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What's some of the trends you're seeing

or lessons learned from this year?

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It is old school.

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Everything old is new again, I think

there's no shortage of the need to try

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and figure out who's doing what and

where, and what, who they're doing it

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for inside your organization, how much

of it's going on, measuring it with

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metrics and data, setting a team up to do

that kind of stuff and to tell the story

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of what value legal is driving, where

it's driving value is never going away.

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The AI layer is the really interesting

part because a lot of the time the

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legal ops function is kind of the

pointy end of explaining parts of

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a legal team's value to its own

organization, or explaining the role of

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the legal team to the external vendors

you're using to to deliver outcomes.

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When you throw the AI layer over the top

of that, including the exploration of

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that AI layer by your own organization.

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It's almost like an extra job for the

legal team, legal ops team to do in

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terms of explaining the impact of that

on the legal function and the impact of

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that for the legal function, and then

what's needed inside the legal function

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to really get value of it over time.

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So it's kind of like spinal tap.

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It turns everything up to 11 and you're

doing the same thing, but faster,

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but with the new layer over the top.

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So.

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As Anna said in the Australia community,

every year as part of one of our quarterly

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meetings, we, we talk about what's on

everyone's agenda for the year, what

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are the projects that you're doing?

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And we sort of share that within the

in-house community because you want

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to draw connections, join the dots,

make sure that people can buddy up

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with people with similar challenges.

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And there's this, it's not

sheepishness, but everyone's like,

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oh, I'm doing document management.

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Oh, I'm doing matter management.

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And someone else is on the other

side going, oh, I've got the, the

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latest whizzbang, exciting thing.

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It's gonna revolutionize the world.

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And so people are feeling like

they're going at different speeds,

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but it's actually the same game and,

and people that at different parts

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of it, they all do interconnect.

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So I'm not even sure if that's

an answer to your question, just

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what I sort of see going on.

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Look, I feel like this, this

discussion is so riddled with

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metaphors and phrases and jewels that

our participants can take with them.

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So I think you did answer the question

quite well, Matt, and then some.

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As far as adding more

value to this conversation.

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Help me understand this or

help our listeners understand.

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When you talk about some of the events

and programs that you had, how do

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you feel like it's really galvanized

the Australian legal ops community?

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How has it brought people

together to focus on enhancing and

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changing and transforming legal

ops in the Australian region?

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And I'll start with you.

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I think the, the key galvanizing

force in our Australian community

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is that point you mentioned

before about practical takeaways.

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Every meeting, all of our content, it's

all focused on practical takeaways.

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So what someone's done, how they've

implemented it, what they've learned,

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what went wrong, you know, why the ROI

wasn't as good as it should have been.

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We pride ourselves on really

focusing on practical.

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And the second key, I think, thing

that galvanizes our community is the

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informal mentoring and the informal

networking that our community offers.

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So we have side conversations off the back

of our quarterlies because of something

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that somebody said in the meeting.

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You know, I've met people off the

back of the summit to talk about my.

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Spend management program.

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I've spoken to people about what

they're doing in knowledge management

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so that I can spearhead my own strategy.

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That's what our community is about

and, and that's what really brings

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people back and keeps people connected.

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Patrick, give us your perspective

here and, and, and I think this

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is a good time to talk about that

value benefit to law firms and

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law firm leaders in, in legal ops.

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So it's a really interesting area.

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Aang.

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Go Anna.

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When she presented at our summit last

year, well, it's almost last year.

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This year.

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It feels like this last year, right?

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I know it's, I'm already in 26.

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We've got so much fun coming in 26

in our Australia summit, and we're

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desperate to talk about that as well.

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Anna, when she presented on her AI

driven spend management program.

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She and her partner on the

stage referenced the size of the

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Australian legal market spend.

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It's about, was it 67 billion?

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Anna.

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That is a huge number for a small market

effectively globally, and there's a

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fantastic opportunity to disrupt that.

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There's a fantastic opportunity to

interrupt that in a way that could

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be market transformative, and we

love this ecosystem, not just our

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in-house teams, but our vendors.

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Our law firms as well, and in fact, we

need our law firms to keep building the

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talent that will be the future in-house.

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Legal teams.

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There are not a lot of legal teams that

run a grad program in corporate Australia.

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They tend to be all built and

grown within the law firms.

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So it's critically important that we

manage the progress and we have what you

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might call in climate, adjust, transition

from the current value chain to the

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future value chain where our law firms

deliver very different benefits using

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technology really for the first time.

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So it is a fascinating

conversation that we're having.

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We know from global research that it

is only in-house teams and the in-house

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communities who can and are pushing

for change in this area and looking for

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demonstrable financial risk, quality,

or speed benefits from AI deployment.

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And are looking and knocking on the

door to be part of the AI value chain,

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whether that's through portals that

are emerging in the market, or AI

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use cases and processes and workflows

that are built in a law firm and then

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sold or provided to an in-house team.

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There are just so many opportunities

in that space and it's something

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I feel really passionate about.

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Don't start Matt on this topic

or this podcast will go for

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three hours 'cause he's got a

lot to say on this topic as well.

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The Australian market is ver

is unique because it's small

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and I think historically.

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We have innovated faster or

at least got on that path to

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innovation a little bit faster.

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And because there's less tolerance

for inefficiency because of the

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competition within the market.

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And whilst we haven't yet seen that

transformation, and I'm gonna hand

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to Matt, I think that that Australia

will get on that journey a little bit

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faster potentially than say the US.

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I feel like I've been set up here.

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Anna threw the AlleyOOP right back to you.

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Exactly right.

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Also, I, I dunno if I'm gonna be able

to dunk it, but one, one of the features

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of the Aussie market, at least over

the last 20 to 30 years, has been a

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stronger collaboration between large

corporates and their law firm providers

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in ways that I think the UK has used

to match that similarly, but, and

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possibly after that, the US I think

that's changing because of the speed

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of AI deployment in parts of the us.

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But that market size does mean that

you have a multi-speed market in the

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US in a way that in Australia, because

it's a bit tighter, you've had some

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more history of collaboration between

large corporates there, law firm

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providers and, and various forms of

innovation and vendors to support that.

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I think that the last year seemed,

there's a lot of law firms with

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consulting practices in ai, with

capability in AI that are sort of

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saying, Hey, look at the shiny thing.

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We can help solve your problem.

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And I think SIE market's well

placed to sort of lean into and

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do those sorts of things together.

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One of the other things that's

interesting in the Aussie market is

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that I think if you look at some of

the larger, broader surveys, there's

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actually a bit more reluctance

around trust of AI in the Australian

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market than other parts of the globe.

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And so there's, there's like enthusiasm

here for what AI will mean to things, but.

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Sort of a pragmatic reluctance

to lean completely on AI as

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being the answer to everything.

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So you mix all those things together

and it's a really interesting, really

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interesting time to do something

meaningful, to do it slowly, to

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do it carefully, to measure it as

it's making an impact, to do it in

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partnership with various people that

need to be part of each solution.

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I mean, I think it's an exciting time.

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But what we're seeing is law firms making

announcements about what we're they're

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doing, but no real translation into ROI.

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Efficiency dividend projects of

collaboration with clients that

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can deliver more cost effective

or faster service delivery.

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The the tools are not

translating into results yet.

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But they will.

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Yeah.

335

We are really excited in my day job,

although I like to think of clock as

336

my day job and my other jobs, what

I do when I'm moonlighting, where we

337

did finally have a firm come to us

in our annual governance conversation

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with case studies demonstrating the

benefits of the AI they've used into

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projects, so they know who they are.

340

They're my favorite firm, and they're

absolutely pushing forward in that space.

341

What's it like in the rest of the world

when you are having this conversation?

342

Orango, how do you think we compare?

343

I think what you guys are articulating

or sharing is on point, just on speed.

344

Everybody's doing it different, right?

345

I think there's a significant

reluctance on the ethics behind ai,

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the policies behind ai, particularly

here in the United States, of everybody

347

wanting to get it right out the gate.

348

It's not as quick to experiment

as much knows that it's there,

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knows that it has to be leveraged.

350

Understand that the technological

enhancements will continue to

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rapidly grow and increase, and

that's sort of the scary part of it.

352

There's no regulatory

environment around it, right?

353

So we pride ourselves in the US on having

regulatory compliance on everything.

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So without that regulatory compliance,

there's that fear of jumping in and, and

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doing something like screwing the pooch.

356

So another metaphor to add to the list.

357

So that, that Peter did not mean,

one of the cca, who's obviously

358

on the clock board was here in

Australia for the summit this year.

359

And one of the things that he noticed.

360

So when you sort of immerse yourself in

a different region, there was a greater

361

conversation inside Australia than he had

seen in other parts of the clock ecosystem

362

around highly regulated enterprises, you

know, the financial services industry,

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government organizations, you know, he,

he was like, what is this sort of role

364

of government inside organizations?

365

I said, well, it's a.

366

The sorts of organizations in

clock are highly regulated.

367

There's a carefulness and, and and

appropriateness around figuring out

368

what it is we're doing before we're

doing it because of the obligations

369

that we have to all of our stakeholders.

370

And he picked that up inside the

Australian market in a way that he hadn't

371

seen in parts of sort of the move fast

and break things, markets that that exist

372

in other parts of the clock ecosystem.

373

So I thought that was really interesting.

374

Jumping back to the earlier conversation

around ROI and AI more generally,

375

it's the, there's an exciting

pressure on legal ops people to bring

376

opportunities that matter around ai Yes.

377

Into the legal ecosystem.

378

So a lot of the law firms do have

the shiny, they've got all the

379

tools they've had, had years playing

with them and exploring what that

380

means for legal team workflow.

381

It's the large corporates and large

enterprises, or even small ones who

382

will have the use cases for that AI

technology where it can add value.

383

You know, if you, if you start from

the premise that the corporations that

384

have legal needs are the reason for

the in-house team and their external

385

providers, all of the deployment of

AI solutions has to be focused on

386

what difference it's making to solving

that problem, which is where you're

387

really gonna measure real ROI 100%.

388

I think that.

389

When you look at certain industries like

healthcare or insurance or other types of

390

entities that really have a significant

ton of significant private data that is

391

actually their customers or clients that

need that extra layer of protection, I

392

think those industries or those companies

should be taking that slow pathway, right?

393

You don't have the luxury of breaking

it first and then figuring out later.

394

I think there's low risk with, you know,

folks in with some organizations and

395

some industries that lend itself rather

much more to exploring and innovating

396

and being more entrepreneur and risky.

397

There I say, and breaking things first and

moving into AI integration a lot faster.

398

Then some of the more companies

that really need to make sure

399

that they have this right, because

we don't know where data goes,

400

we don't know who can access it.

401

We don't know where it's

stored in, in various clouds.

402

So I think that that will continue.

403

But I love your idea and your thought

process that you put on the table map

404

about real practical case studies or

user studies that people can relate to.

405

Because I think that's how our,

our professionals in in the

406

legal ops space are really.

407

Trying to, you know, lean into is look

at user case studies to then determine

408

or benchmark where they are in their

own operation, and then to see if those

409

are some of the things that can help

them elevate their games and bring

410

more of an impact to their strategic

bottom line at their enterprise.

411

Well, it's the fun bit and

the scary bit as well, right?

412

Because particularly on the AI

front, like it's starting to reveal

413

what's the real thinky thinky work.

414

Yeah.

415

And what's the real sort of time based

on sort of rolling the arm over and

416

just the grunt work, which has always

been covered with costs, I think.

417

I think AI is driving a like right at

the heart of that to try and figure

418

out what's valuable and what's not.

419

And anyway, it's fun.

420

But back on law firms for a minute.

421

Yes.

422

When you talk about the two ends

of the spectrum, Ango, where you've

423

got, you know, your highly regulated,

careful companies and you've got your

424

innovative, fast moving companies,

where do law firms fit on that spectrum?

425

Where should law firms

fit on that spectrum?

426

My.

427

Gut is that they should be in the

innovative bucket because their data

428

can be anonymized and aggregated

so that they can and should be

429

able to use it in a very safe way.

430

I think that law firms think

that they should be in the slow

431

moving, careful bucket, and I

think that's our big challenge.

432

In conversations that I have,

there are some that are more, yes,

433

in line with the former, right?

434

They're good ones, slowly to adopt.

435

They're taking their time,

they're examining the marketplace

436

to see where it's gonna get.

437

I mean, we're talking about a system

that has held the billable hour in

438

place for decades and eons, right?

439

So.

440

As we dare think about change and

innovation, but let me be honest, there

441

are some managing partners who I talk to

at M 100 law firms that are experimenting,

442

that are looking for the cost savings,

that are partnering with their clients

443

and customers in order to try to create

these types of user case studies that Matt

444

was talking about, so that they can bring

more innovation to the marketplace here.

445

But not all of them, not

enough of 'em yet, right?

446

Maybe that's a podcast for another day.

447

We've talked everything, all things

448

at the bit to get to next year.

449

Petra, I'm gonna start with you

actually, and then work my way

450

around here as we do head into 2026.

451

What are your highest priority

initiatives for expanding legal

452

ops engagement across Australia?

453

What's on the horizon?

454

What are you looking at?

455

What are you think of thinking about?

456

What are you hearing?

457

Spoiler alert.

458

You ready?

459

Yes.

460

The first thing that we'll be doing

is kicking off our awards program,

461

so I think we'll be the first

clock region to run clock awards.

462

We will move fast and break things

to borrow Matt's terminology

463

at our summit in August.

464

Awesome.

465

Developing that awards program at the

moment, and it will be so different

466

from every long turgid boring.

467

Dry Chicken Fed Event you've

ever been to for law awards.

468

So, so look out Australia

and look out world.

469

We are gonna absolutely move fast

and break some things in our awards

470

program, so that is super exciting.

471

We will be seeing our community

three more times apart from our

472

summit, which is absolutely adored.

473

And not only for the salsa and

for the debate, which we'll

474

tell you about in a minute.

475

We will be repeating the debate.

476

Anna and I, I think did

this for the first time.

477

Two years ago now, Anna.

478

Two years ago I think it was.

479

Yeah.

480

Yeah.

481

Two or three years ago.

482

You know, 50 cuffs on the stage.

483

Sing right, left and center.

484

Good Aussie dry humor,

and we absolutely love it.

485

Unfortunately, I got, uh, completely

wiped this year by very, very strong

486

representation from one of our law firms.

487

But, um, I'll be back with a vengeance

if I'm allowed to debate again.

488

There was some dancing on the

stage, let's put it that way.

489

There are a number of really important

conversations for us to be having.

490

So we've just talked about

the benefits from ai.

491

This is the year where we

absolutely have to prove it.

492

And the community in my view, and I think

in in our view as clock co-chairs needs

493

to lean into drive that change in the

industry or the change will not occur.

494

So we are really excited to be

actively engaged in market change

495

in a meaningful way in the region.

496

Just to give it a more serious note for

half a second and prove to the world that

497

I am capable of being serious on occasion.

498

There'll be great growth in the community.

499

We welcome new members, and particularly

members joining us from the broader

500

Asia-Pac region or Australasian region.

501

That's been something that Matt and

Anna and shout out to Kat Gowans, who

502

has been an amazing chair of clock and

stood down from that role this year.

503

That growth in regional community

and new community members is

504

something that's incredibly

important to us and will continue.

505

To do, and I promise you if

you're listening, I won't make

506

you dance, but you might want to.

507

Anyway.

508

Finally, that knowledge management

and curate or wait conversation

509

remains critically important and

one where we're hoping to work as a

510

community to sort of really build out.

511

Take all the gold out of the old way of

doing things and turn it into the new way.

512

So a couple of highlights there,

but of course our summit is going

513

to be big, shiny thing that we,

we absolutely want it to be.

514

That's full of dialogue, debate, welcoming

new members, fun inside vendors love it

515

because it's, they're not stuck out in

the vendor hall, you know, waiting for

516

someone to shine some light on them.

517

It's a great opportunity for us,

and we absolutely love it, don't we?

518

Anna and Matt?

519

Yep.

520

Two other key highlights.

521

For the summit, we hoping to enhance

the focus of legal operations in the

522

eyes of our general counsel community.

523

We're gonna have a special focus

session where we invite GCs to come

524

to our event, partnered with their

legal operations professional, or GCs

525

who don't have legal ops professionals

to come and learn why they need one.

526

And we think that the GCs that have

embraced legal ops in the Australian

527

community are really at the forefront,

and we wanna showcase them and we

528

wanna showcase their learnings and

why they have benefited from having

529

legal ops professionals on their teams.

530

So that, that's a big

focus for the summit in 26.

531

Over to you, Matt.

532

Yeah.

533

No, I was good.

534

That was one thing.

535

The only other things I was gonna add to

that is continued rollout of the academy.

536

So Club Academy, we've obviously had

100, we've got more 200 sessions coming.

537

That's really great for growth and

development for people, depending on

538

where they're up to in their legal ops

journey and the regional round table.

539

So we had one in Melbourne.

540

We'll aim for another one.

541

I think in February we're gonna

try, try and push for that

542

need to get our skates on.

543

In terms of planning, I've, I've

had, you know, vendors and other

544

sponsors that are keen to get

those things happening as well.

545

So there's enthusiasm for those as

a great format in the Aussie market.

546

And then you mentioned about

Australia in particular.

547

I mean, Australia's a big country as

a small, small but mighty legal ops

548

market, but it's a big country, so.

549

Representation that it's relevant

for a community based in Sydney,

550

one in Melbourne, one in Brisbane.

551

Other parts of the country as well.

552

People do fly across from Perth to Sydney,

Melbourne, Brisbane for legal ops events,

553

you know, that's a buy their flight

just to give some of our international

554

audience a sense of the size and scale

and small community, big country regional

555

relevance in the sort of the smaller

markets within the country as well.

556

So pushing at that, but round

table's a great format to do that.

557

Academy and learning.

558

So more of the same, but you

know, excited to deliver it.

559

I think you guys are definitely on the

right track when it comes to bringing

560

in general counsels, rather they have

a legal operations component or not.

561

I've spent half of my first year as the

executive director of Clock going to

562

conferences where general counsels meet.

563

Rather, it was through our partnership

with a LM or the economists or

564

other general counsel conferences

in order to show them that.

565

We support what it is that they're

trying to achieve, and understanding

566

what their thought process is when

it comes to legal operations and

567

how we can work better together.

568

We've also launched a partnership with

Vanguard, which you'll see at CGI in May

569

in 2026 in Chicago, to kind of elevate

our educational component as it relates

570

to the executive level decision making.

571

Particularly to attract more general

counsels and deputy general counsels

572

to participate in that event.

573

And the reason why I think it's

even significantly much, much

574

more important is that I believe

that it enhances our profession.

575

There are some who believe that legal

ops is about Googling templates and just

576

figuring it out, and this is a profession.

577

This is a discipline.

578

This is something that's

very, very unique and serious.

579

On that note.

580

I'll start with you and, and maybe Matt,

you may wanna add something to this.

581

When you think about the early career

professionals in Australia, rather

582

there are law firm representatives

or in-house counsel, legal op or or

583

counsels or legal ops folks, what's some

of the thought process on opportunities

584

for that demographic of people who are

just getting into the legal op space?

585

I've got two young people in my

team at the moment who I have

586

this conversation with a lot.

587

My view is that there are amazing

legal ops professionals who come from

588

a background as a practicing lawyer and

just, you know, final shout out on the

589

GC side, there was fan recent research

release, which I think is fantastic,

590

that shows that general counsel who

move into broader C-Suite roles.

591

Seek to become the future

CEO of their company.

592

Almost always either have an legal

ops background or have worked really

593

closely with a legal ops professional.

594

So if there's no other reason to

do it, everybody come see our yang.

595

Go to enhance your career.

596

That's all I can say there at the top end.

597

Now let's talk about people

coming into the market.

598

So there are so many

fantastic opportunities.

599

We have some great training programs

in this region through the College of

600

law and other educational institutions.

601

That are absolutely worth doing.

602

Not to mention clock 1 0 1 2 0 1 3 0 1,

and being part of this community just

603

to get your hands dirty and get your

elbows out on some legal ops projects.

604

You absolutely need to have

experience in panel and vendor

605

management and spend management.

606

If anyone's listening to this and wants

to speak to the guru there, Anna Glovsky,

607

she's the woman to speak to on that front.

608

You absolutely need to be able to

understand organizational architecture

609

and technology decision making

and technology implementation.

610

And if you're looking for a

guru there in the region, Mr.

611

Matt Duncan is the Manco chat to, and then

you need to understand legal practice.

612

So as I said, there's great opportunities

for people who've been in legal practice.

613

Who have either are or would like to

be a recovering lawyer, but there's an

614

amazing opportunity for people coming

out of all different disciplines.

615

So I've worked with fantastic young legal

ops professionals whose backgrounds have

616

been in criminology, whose backgrounds

have been in psychology, whose backgrounds

617

have been in professional dance, which

of course is you very dear to my heart.

618

And particularly his backgrounds

are in technology and data.

619

But for those specialists.

620

You have to go deep on

what is this area of law?

621

What does it mean?

622

What is the knowledge base?

623

What does success look

like across practice areas?

624

So in my legal team, we practice

in about 30 different areas of law.

625

We encourage our all of our ops team

at all levels to sit with and soak in

626

the legal priorities and the commercial

priorities that our lawyers are

627

delivering for our lines of business.

628

And to listen really closely for

those opportunities because of

629

course that is they're, they're your

customers, they're your clients.

630

That's the market that you're serving,

and there is no change without

631

technology in my personal view.

632

So yeah, absolutely.

633

You need to partner with lawyers.

634

You need to learn to speak lawyer.

635

That's a really special language

that I'm not sure that AI can

636

particularly help you with terribly

much yet, although maybe it will.

637

I'm really looking forward to getting

some of those new AirPods that auto

638

translate different languages for you.

639

I'm hoping that it can auto

translate risk for me in the future.

640

That will be great.

641

I'll sit in Risk Co and it will

translate it all into actual English.

642

For example, Anna, I know that

you feel my pain there, so there's

643

lots of opportunities for people

coming into the legal ops market.

644

We think the growth is slow

but steady, but we are as.

645

The old guard of legal ops in

in Australia to influence GCs.

646

As Anna says, if you don't already

have a legal ops professional in your

647

team, come find out why you need one.

648

Awesome.

649

Matt, I'll kick it over to you.

650

What, what's your thoughts?

651

Early stage legal ops, career development?

652

I think there's lots of

opportunities inside law firms.

653

I mean, running the, the business of a

law firm and expo like there's lots of

654

opportunities for what I'd call business

services professionals inside law firms

655

that are bringing their capability to

think about how that applies not just

656

for the law firm benefit, but ultimately

for that law firm's client's benefits.

657

So people in HR roles, it roles,

business development roles in particular.

658

They, they, they learn to speak lawyer,

they understand the legal ecosystem and

659

they understand it from that perspective.

660

In vendor land, like if you're working

with software development startups, large

661

startups or, or larger organizations,

you learn about legal operations from

662

the perspective of how a specific

solution meets a particular client's

663

needs, whether that's a law firm

client or an in-house team client.

664

So start there as well.

665

I, I think I've heard.

666

Previous clock presidents talking about

starting with one other part of the

667

clock wheel, becoming good at that.

668

Yeah, it's just all about.

669

Having a couple of deep verticals and

then a couple of generalist skills.

670

And then it's all all about general

management and leadership capability

671

development On top of that, um, on

from the in-house team side, you

672

know, there are, there are probably

fewer like, enormous organizations in

673

the Aussie market that in some other

parts of the globe, but they do exist.

674

You know, we've got teams of

one, teams of five, teams of 10.

675

So rolling around and being exposed to

different people with their specialisms

676

inside those teams is really useful to

understand where you've got something

677

to offer and how that could help

you with a career path on that one.

678

And then, as Anna's mentioned,

there is that tipping point.

679

There's a conversation around for in-house

legal teams in particular that match

680

between the general counsel and the

legal operations head and what that's

681

supposed to drive for the organization.

682

It'll be different for every organization

is why it's hard to answer the question.

683

But I do see opportunity there.

684

Absolutely.

685

And any additional thing to add

on this matter on just how early

686

professionals, because they're

not all young, come against some

687

of us, come to this profession

from a second or a third career.

688

I mean, I'm really excited because I've

just employed a legal ops principal who's

689

come in from a procurement background.

690

So they, they have seen that legal

procurement is at the cutting edge

691

of procurement and that they've

got new skills to learn for their

692

wheelhouse by coming into a legal team.

693

So I think that's really exciting.

694

I think.

695

In addition, the other key opportunity

for people looking to come into legal

696

ops to think about is about the, the

training and the upskilling that's needed.

697

Within both in-house teams and within

law firms to use AI and leverage ai.

698

AI adoption.

699

Upskilling is gonna be a critical

piece of legal ops roles over

700

the coming 12 to 24 months.

701

And I think that, you know, someone

with, with that kind of background is

702

going to be uniquely placed to really

drive innovation within an in-house team.

703

I got one more question for you

before we move to closing thoughts.

704

I love when I am in other countries

and folks ask me about Australia

705

or they ask me What's going on?

706

So let's talk.

707

Let's take Australia global.

708

Where do you see the biggest opportunity

for Australia to influence the

709

broader CLO conversation even further?

710

And second, what can we do at clock

with our resources and team to help

711

support you all on the global content?

712

Things that you guys wanna put out there

to help influence that conversation?

713

I'm gonna start with Anna.

714

I think in Australia we pride

ourself on local content.

715

One of the unique selling points of

our community and our summit has been

716

bringing that real local context to a

global framework that Clock provides.

717

So.

718

I think we wanna continue to

bring out those local stories,

719

the local innovation journeys, the

unique aspects of the way that.

720

In-house collaborate with the ecosystem

within Australia, but we also, I think

721

in Australia, want to start to have

greater relevance within our region.

722

We are connecting with colleagues

in Singapore, in Japan, in

723

Hong Kong, and that they are.

724

Using the Australian community

is an opportunity to connect if

725

they cannot get to say CGI in 26.

726

So continue to drive that local flavor in

Australia, but leverage the really deep

727

content and methodical framework that

clock enables us to, to learn from Petra.

728

Awards, then we'll take Berlin.

729

Right.

730

Okay.

731

It's, um, we, we might

skip Manhattan entirely.

732

It's, it's, it's the next thing.

733

I think we've all sat through hours and

hours, as I said, of the dry chicken event

734

of death, hoping that your person gets.

735

Disappointed that they haven't

and possibly been surprised by the

736

result, there's a genuine opportunity.

737

We've been clock in

Australia for 10 years.

738

Yeah.

739

We think it's a fantastic time to

actually talk about the heroes and the

740

amazing things that our teams have done.

741

Make it meaningful as well.

742

Yeah, so not too many spoilers because

I, you know, I don't wanna give away all

743

the goods, but if you ask our younger,

how can clock globally help Australia

744

take some of our ideas out there?

745

Let's pick this one up

and bring it to CGI in 27.

746

Receiving reward award from your

peers is, I think the highest.

747

Recognition and accomplishment and

achievement that one could ever

748

receive because it shows that your

peers, the people you work with and

749

work around value your contributions

as significant to the profession.

750

So I love where you're going, Petra,

and appreciate you all for taking the

751

leadership here and bringing this program.

752

Back with some significant thought

and I can't wait to see it unfold.

753

Matt, give us your thought

process on biggest opportunity,

754

what we can do here at Clock to

kind of help help you get there.

755

I think clock's a great platform

for some of the innovation

756

that's going on inside Australia.

757

I think if you look back over the last

decade, you'll see that there's been

758

lots of representation of Australian

organizations, Australian companies,

759

bits of Australian software, uh,

you know, as it has startups, scale

760

ups and the like that have been on

walk, walking the floors of clock.

761

Not just the Australian clock

ecosystem being small but mighty, but

762

as an Australian market, I think we

represent well on the global stage.

763

There's some, Australia has a long

history of innovation and typically great

764

ideas get started here and then they

wanna scale it and they have to go to

765

markets with frankly, a lot more money.

766

And that's sort of the,

the, the Australian story.

767

Great ideas get exported.

768

I think there's some cool things

that are going on in the Aussie

769

legal ops ecosystem, the the same.

770

And then the other thing I think I've

mentioned earlier in the podcast a bit is.

771

Around the close relationships.

772

So to the extent that the clock ecosystem

is that combination of law firms

773

in-house, legal teams and vendor sort of

perspectives coming together to create

774

solutions that will make a difference.

775

There's some great examples and

that close-knit Australian community

776

can model how that works in

different markets around the world.

777

That might be an opportunity

that's worth exploring.

778

Awesome.

779

All right.

780

What a conversation.

781

We went around the globe, literally, but

brought it right back home to Australia,

782

so I appreciate you all for doing that.

783

Let's see, closing thoughts,

and I'm gonna start with you

784

and this is more rapid fire.

785

Give us some closing thoughts

that you'd, or a closing message

786

rather, that you wanna share with

members across the Australian

787

region as we enter into New Year.

788

It's the most exciting time

to get into legal operations.

789

We're on the cusp of real industry change,

and if you wanna be right in the middle

790

of that, you have to join Clock Australia.

791

You have to come to our summit and

you have to get on board to the clock.

792

Ecosystem.

793

Not everybody wants to

dance, but if you do.

794

Not only should you come to Clock for

innovation, for being on the cusp of

795

material change, to be part of designing

the value chain for that $67 billion

796

industry, but also because you will

laugh in the way that you will not

797

at any other conference in the world.

798

And you will make friends, you will

enjoy yourself, you'll develop a network,

799

and if you want to, you will saucer or

flamenco with me at the end of the night.

800

Matthew, close us out.

801

I like, uh.

802

Good conversations between great people

doing interesting things, and I think

803

that clock is a great place for that.

804

So hop on bullet.

805

Beautifully said.

806

Thank you, Anna Petra, Matt, for sharing

your insights and your leadership,

807

and I personally extend my gratitude

and appreciation for you all leading

808

the region and having such a dynamic

influence on what we do clock worldwide.

809

Thanks to all our listeners for

tuning in to another clock talk.

810

Looking back on 2025.

811

But looking around the corner for

812

I am so excited.

813

I'm Olgo Snell.

814

I am wishing you all a

815

I.