I’m so excited you’re here to experience the first episode of Leaving In Color. My dear friend Marcos joins me for a raw, real conversation about growing up in the Mormon church as a queer person of color. We’ll talk about grappling with your identity, and how painful it can be when being true to yourself conflicts with the faith that’s bound your family for generations. 

Our conversation was too important to cut short, and too big for just one episode. Look for the second half of this engrossing discussion in two weeks.

About Our Guest:

Marcos is a born and bred Californian who is proud of his multiple identities as a Chicano, gay man. His life experience and education has shaped his passion for social justice and care for marginalized communities. Marcos enjoys working in higher education to serve students, provide support, and pay it forward based on his own experiences as a first-gen college student navigating academia. He is an avid animal lover who also enjoys concerts, live theater, and the beach.

Mentioned: 

The Book of Laman by Mette Ivie Harrison https://www.amazon.com/Book-Laman-Mette-Ivie-Harrison/dp/0998605247 

Connect with Leaving in Color:

Instagram - @leavingincolor.pod 

Email - leavingincolorpod@gmail.com.

Music by Tucker Winters

Art by Jen Cagle Gilmore

Editing by Particulate Media

Hi, welcome to Living in Color, a podcast about uncovering your

radiant self after losing your faith.

I am your host, Christina Elmer.

I'm so delighted you found us.

Hello, hello.

Oh my god.

Um, I can't believe it.

We're actually finally here.

This is the first episode of Leaving in Color.

Wow, this has been such a process getting to this point.

I am incredibly grateful for the support of so many people.

My coach, Natalie, and my producer, K.O., and of course, friends and family.

And yeah, it's just, it's a little surreal, surreal that we're

actually here recording today.

So, when I had the idea for this podcast, God, it was about a year ago and I was,

working with a different coach at the time and in the coaching container,

we were envisioning our future selves.

And what I had envisioned for myself was to be a host of a podcast.

And at that time, I wasn't sure what type of podcast it would be,

but I just knew that I wanted, to be a storyteller of some kind.

And the idea for Leaving in Color is to create a space where individuals who

may not necessarily get the opportunity to tell their story for a multitude

of reasons, that this space is the place where they can come share their

experiences of leaving high demand belief systems and that their stories matter.

Um, also being a person of color, being Japanese American, often feel

like I don't fit in a lot of places and I want to be able to create a

community where anybody, regardless of their skin tone, that they can feel

like what they have to say that their experiences matter, that they just matter.

They themselves as a human being.

So here we are leaving in color the podcast for uncovering.

Your amazing self after leaving your faith or losing your faith.

Today's episode is going to be a great one.

Um, the guest that we have today is a very...

I don't want to say old because we're really not that old, we're actually pretty

fucking fabulous, is my amazing kind.

wonderful, strong friend, Marcos.

and he has so graciously decided to join us here today to share

with us his story of finding the strength to uncover his truest self.

It wasn't an easy path, but here he is, and he has survived, and he is here to

share his amazing experience with us.

It's a little wild because we're recording on a Sunday and for a lot of

people in Christianity and Mormonism in particular, Sunday is the day of rest.

It's the Lord's day.

And it's, for a lot of people that are out of Mormonism or whatever

their journey may be, um, Sunday is considered a second Saturday.

So it feels very serendipitous to be recording on a Sunday, but

I would love to now introduce to you after that long spiel.

my lovely, amazing, talented, wonderful friend, Marcos.

Um, it's wild that we're here, um, 20 years later after meeting at the Lord's

University, Brigham Young University.

Welcome Marcos.

I'm so glad you're here.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

I'm very happy to be here.

Thank you for the invite.

And congratulations,

Thank you.

Yeah.

It's been, I contacted Marcos.

When was it?

It was back in April when I got the idea to start the podcast and it's

been months of, I had to really muster up the courage to get into the space

where I could just really trust my ability to say that I belong, you know?

And so thank you for being willing to do this journey with

me and to be the first guest.

Um, Where do we begin?

I

Yeah, Marcos and I have known each other for 20 years, as I said, and, um, we met

in college and we'll, we'll talk about a little bit about our time at Brigham

Young University back in the late 90s,

The early

uh, the early 2000s, um, we're totally aging ourselves here.

Yeah, the eve of the new millennium.

My goodness.

And the thing is just like.

I think, I honestly feel, Marcos and I are here sitting on video and we have

both definitely gotten better with age.

We're both like fine wines.

We've definitely gotten better with age, or fine cheese if you don't

drink alcohol, but, or whatever gets

Right, right, right.

But definitely, and it has also to do probably

with the fact that, you know, we also have great genetics.

So...

we're both mixed.

We're both mixed.

I'm, I'm half Japanese and Marcos is...

I'll let him tell his story, but um, but yeah Marcos, please tell us, who are you?

let's see, that's a tough question.

I am California local, so born and raised, um, very

proud to be from California.

I feel very fortunate to be, be here.

Um, my...

Grandparents had migrated here, um, almost a hundred years ago, from Mexico.

Um, so with that, there's a long and now long family history,

specifically in Southern California.

And so I'm very happy to still reside in the state and in the history

that we have here as a family.

Um, I'm very proud of my Mexican heritage.

Um, my, so on my mom's side, I am Mexican.

And then my dad's side, um, my dad is white.

He has a long history in this, in this country, um, as well.

Like, I think like his ancestry might go back to like the Mayflower.

Cool.

I don't really though.

connect with that side of my, um, of my heritage per se.

Um, I'm happy for my dad and his heritage and I see that as, as all,

you know, very good for him, but it's not something that I fully connect to.

Um, and I think that works for me and I think that works for him.

Um, I know, um, it's all very complicated when you're mixed as I'm sure, you

know, um, it can be complicated.

So it's one of those scenes where I'm like, my dad is

white, but I am not, right?

So, very interested and involved with being Latino, Chicano,

Mexican American, person of color.

That's something that's really important to me.

Um, I also identify as gay, um, and, you know, I think being from marginalized

groups and just depending on your experience, I think sometimes the more you

have to battle things along your process and journey with those identities, it

just makes you hold on to it more dearly.

Um, so I think, uh, I became even more proud of my identities as I've had

different experiences within my life or have had to, like, defend myself and...

defend those identities and communities.

Um, so it's something that's very proud to me.

I know some people don't understand that.

But you know, like I say, if, if you don't want people to be so

proud of their identities, maybe you shouldn't treat them like shit.

Yeah.

Because when you treat them that way, they're going to start to be, you

know, be more proud of it because they have no choice but to latch

on to it once they realize that that's what you just need to do.

But I'm someone who I definitely value kindness.

I value empathy.

I value community.

I just try to be a better person each day.

Um, and when I'm not, I try the next day.

yeah, that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Um, anything else you want to know with that, or that kind of covers it?

No, that was, that was beautiful.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

I loved when you said that, because of the way that people

have treated you, or just people that treat people that are marginalized, that,

you know, we need to latch onto that identity, and it makes it stronger for us.

I think I've not actually thought about that in that way, and thank

you for bringing that to light because it's actually something

for me to think about now.

Like, I identify as Japanese You know, but I feel like I haven't

really tapped into that a whole lot.

I also being you know, a cis Asian woman.

I feel like I haven't experienced a lot of marginalization or even

racism or hatred because of who I am.

I still have a lot of privilege.

Um, and so thank you for sharing that with me and, you know, saying that, that that's

allowed you to, to come into who you are.

And I, I think that's beautiful.

And I would love to explore that more as we get, further into this podcast

and have more of a conversation because I'm very, very curious about

the journey of, how you came into the beautiful human that you are today.

Not that you weren't beautiful 20 years ago, but you know, just, just

seeing you evolve, as your friend has been just beautiful to, to watch.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Um, So, obviously you went to Brigham Young University,

you grew up Mormon, right?

Um, what was that experience like growing up in Southern California?

where there's a predominantly huge Mormon LDS, Church of Jesus

Christ of Latter day Saints.

We need to call them by their proper name, right?

They don't, they don't like being called Mormons anymore.

Um, Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

That is a mouthful.

It is.

Um, but what was that like growing up, as a Chicano

man in a predominantly white religion?

You know, very North American white religion.

yeah, let's start with that.

Very complicated.

Very complicated.

Um, you know, I, like you said, was born and raised in the church, um,

on my mom's side, so on my Mexican side, I'm actually fourth generation.

Fourth generation LDS.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

So her, her grandmother, so my great grandmother, had converted when

some of her kids were very young.

So when my grandmother was very young,

In Mexico?

my grandmother's...

Yeah, in Mexico.

Yeah.

So at this point, I believe it was still in central Mexico.

Um, that's where my grandmother's from and that's where they're just,

that's just where they originated.

And, my grandmother's father had, had passed away, um, when he was

young or when she was very young.

And so soon after that, I believe is when the missionaries came to my great

grandmother's house and she converted.

You know, I mean, I can get into that later, but the church has been

very significant, very important for generations within my family.

And then my dad was actually a convert, so he converted in his

20s, I believe his early 20s.

And, um, my mom and my dad, they actually met the day after he

got baptized, um, at church.

Yeah,

Was it in, was it in a, a young single adults

ward or a family congregation?

Um, good question.

I believe it was still the family ward.

I believe it was the family ward.

And, uh, so, yeah, they met the day after he got baptized.

And then soon had their courtship and, uh, they both went on missions and basically

let's see what happens type thing.

And then they came back and then soon after got married and went from there.

So, um, and they're still very, um, very strong on the church, very much LDS.

And, uh, so I grew up in very.

what's the word?

I forget the word.

Uh, it's funny how it works when you're a little bit far further

removed from religion, you forget some of the words and terms.

but they, they were very, it was a very faithful household.

They definitely ruled, um, raised us with the church's guidelines.

However, they weren't overly zealous about some things, which was nice.

Um, but they were pretty, you know, by the book in most areas.

So, you know, most of my ward, um, and area, well, most of the

ward specifically was white.

Um, there were a few of us who were not, few families that

were not, but most were white.

For the most part, I would say I had a good experience, like people were

very nice, um, you know, within time, you know, I was like a teenager, I

developed really strong bonds with some of the senior citizen, uh, women

in our ward, and we loved hugging each other, you know, most of them

were white, um, but there were some of like the older brown women too that we

connected, um, the most part it was good.

However, there definitely were a lot of microaggressions.

that you just hear from the pulpit and you encounter, in your socializing

with people, it's a lot of, a lot of microaggressions and racism.

Like even when I went to a wedding, um, probably like eight years ago of

a friend I grew up with in the church.

A very nice family, um, was there, and I was just surprised

by some of the microaggressions that immediately came out.

While trying to give a compliment, it was a backhanded, while, complimenting me

and my family was insulting my, you know, ethnic community, and I was like, okay.

So there definitely was a lot of that with my experience in the church.

Um, and then just hearing, and it feels odd using this term now, but all the

Lamanite talk that they would have, how the fetishization and, you know,

just all sorts of things that they do with brown people and say about

brown people was really frustrating.

Um, so it was definitely a mixed bag.

I'm very thankful for my experience overall.

I feel like it taught me about faith and prayer and provide a community.

And, you know, with the fact that you learn so many little skills that

you wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise, like as a kid, right.

How to make photocopies, how to, how, how

I mean, the church library was like, anytime you got access

to the church library, it was just like, you felt like a freaking baller

because it had everything in there.

It had the crayons.

It had all the artwork and the copy machine, which was always broken.

it was always broken, but it was just like, when you got to use it, it was just

like, you felt like, so freaking cool.

That's so true.

Like, I remember as a kid, we would photocopy our face

No!

machine.

Like, I never would have experienced this otherwise, right?

You didn't get a chance to do it as a kid in private.

Yeah,oh

So you learn a lot of little skills, you know, and so

that was all rewarding and I, um, was very appreciative of it.

And so it's weird when that becomes a place of solace and peace and

then it starts conflicting with you and then it's no longer that.

Or it's like, or it could be both at the same time, right?

And that's where it starts getting really complicated and really, um, unfortunate

to where it could feel like a betrayal.

So it was every which experience I would say.

Yeah.

Would you mind expounding a little bit more, um, for

listeners that may not really know kind of the theology in Mormonism

and regarding the Lamanite people

yeah.

Um, at least at the time when I, um, was involved, I'm sure, I'm assuming most of

it has stayed the same, um, essentially it was believed and taught that Lamanites

are essentially the ancestors of present day, um, Native Americans, um, or

those with, you know, Native descent.

Um, so it can include many, you know, people from Latin America, uh, Um,

some also extended it to like the Pacific Islanders, in my experience,

my family would have been more with the native ancestry aspect.

Um, and my family is very much brown, um, my Mexican family.

So, um, definitely they were seen as like descendants of Lamanites.

And, um, with that, um, essentially Lamanites they descended

from the family, Lehi and his family who came from Jerusalem.

They came to what is the Americas.

Um, essentially the promised land.

Um, they arrived.

Lehman and Lem Lehman and Lem

yes.

Lemuel, should I say it correctly now, they were, uh,

essentially the, the evil sons, the evil

They were really vilified.

Yes, and of course, um, their followers were then known

as the Lamanites, were then, as they were were cursed with dark

skin or cursed in general, but the mark of that was the brown skin.

And so, there's both this deep demonization, but then also like

this fetishization that happens, um, with, um, these groups.

And so it's really, Interesting to see and just, I know like many family members

and I definitely were uncomfortable with some of these things that were

said and it wasn't until BYU, my Book of Mormon professor, who's a very nice

man, um, he tried clarifying it as far as like, no, the brown skin, the dark

skin is not the curse, that's the mark and then the curse is something else.

I mean, it definitely is playing semantics, um, but definitely at

the time it felt a little better.

Like, thank you for saying this in a predominantly white classroom.

Yeah.

Um, because people are going around thinking that we're cursed.

And, you know, many Christian denominations have that

mentality about people of color.

That, you know, white is virtuous, white is pure, and we just see that

throughout, not just religion, but like literature and just society, right?

Going back, the fair maiden and all

Always dressed in virginal white.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So it's overlapped so much with like race, ethnicity, and gender

when it comes down to that.

And so all that was very complicated.

You know, being a kid, some of it was like a sense of pride.

Right?

Like.

You know, that's right.

Like, we, you know, this is where we're from.

This is our land.

Christ came to visit us as well.

And we matter too.

But now as an adult removed from that ideology, I'm like, I do not like

how they still like take those tours.

Like, no, no, no, no.

from my perspective, that's not your ancestor stories.

Those are indigenous people and these descended people's history and

families and stories and beliefs.

So I don't like how they Columbus that still.

Um, so that really bothers me.

Um, and it's also led to a lot of other, it's contributed to a lot of other groups

out there, um, that do, essentially pirate indigenous history and culture.

And, um, so it's very problematic in that regard.

So it's all very conflicted, right?

On one hand, at one point it's like, yay.

And then I was like, nay.

Um, so, um, so it's very complicated, but that, that was

my overall experience with that.

Um, but I do definitely think it's problematic.

Yeah.

For sure.

It definitely is.

I, yeah, I can definitely relate to that.

And it's different because being of Japanese descent, like there's not,

you know, I didn't necessarily identify with the Lamanites per se, but I did to

an extent, like, especially when I had children and, you know, we'd be reading

from the Book of Mormon and it would talk about, people, because they were wicked,

they were cursed with darker skin, and,

hmm.

Mm hmm.

my, ex husband is of German descent, so he's very fair skinned

and, my, my children have some color.

But you know, it's, it was, there's the, there's a term in the book of Mormon

that talks about white and delightsome.

And even like as a child, just reading that, cause you know, I'm naturally

tan, like, um, a lot of, there's different variations of skin tone

within, you know, people, colors, you know, even within Japanese,

Right.

. Christina Elmer: And so, um, I just remember reading that and just being

like, what the hell, what the hell does white and dark, it's so mean, you know,

it feels very, and you know, there's Mormon apologists that sit there and

they, you know, as your Book of Mormon professor at BYU tried to recognize

that there was some issue with it and tried to maybe add in a little bit of,

there was a little bit more nuanced than, you know, it was intended, but you

know, I think he, he tried to make it.

fit into something, maybe what he was believing for himself.

And maybe that wasn't what necessarily what Joseph Smith intended, but I

do appreciate that he, he did do that because he was acknowledging

that there was some problematic themes within what he was teaching.

Um, and I, I appreciate that.

But yeah, some of the, just looking back and, you know, cause my, my,

my kids are still very active in the church because my ex husband is.

And so I still have a connection to it in a sense.

Um, but it's just very interesting kind of remembering those things that we

read as kids and just, you know, I...

I don't know if your experience was like this, but I, I didn't

really read the Book of Mormon.

Like, it was just kind of like, I read it once to get done with my young women's

certification, like the young women's, whatever the thing was, because it was

like, you know, looking for external validation because, you know, my, I came

from a family that wasn't necessarily fitting into the normal Mormon,

confines of what a perfect family was.

Um, and so I felt like I had to do it.

And so I read the book of Mormon just once, just to get, the, you

know, beautiful medallion with the Salt Lake temple and graved on it,

which they don't do that anymore.

So it feels less rewarding in young women's, they just did like little

bookmarks with ribbons and like,

Oh.

You know,

I used to like their

I know!

We got some sweet swag in Young Women's

need something

I know, especially with the Boy Scouts

getting as much swag as they did.

It was always nice as a Young Woman to get the Golden Medallion when you

finished and Beehives and Miamades and Laurels when you finished all of it.

So, I always loved

I wanted, I would have preferred a medallion over a tie tack.

To be honest, I'm like,

Right?

Yes, I know.

can you make this a medallion, not

sure.

tie tack?

But I'll settle for it.

Fine.

I can wear it on Sunday.

But,

Yeah.

But I want to go back to what you said about like that scripture.

Um, I have a book right here.

I'm actually, there's a Mexican, a Mormon, I forgot what it's called, but

like Mormon Mexican history museum.

It's just a very small, like little

And where's Improba?

Okay.

And about 10 years ago, um, I went, I'm like, okay, I want to see.

Cause you know, my, my grandmother, I, as I mentioned, she was from

central Mexico, but they had migrated to Northern Mexico when she was

younger as well and after they converted and stuff and were baptized.

So they were actually living in the Mormon colonies in northern Mexico, so

The colonias.

because Say it

The colonias.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

Look at you, El

Yeah.

You know.

You know.

You know all about it.

Um, and actually El Paso is where my grandparents, um,

Oh, that's really

So, yeah, yeah.

Um, but, so we figured there would be some family history at the museum.

So we went, because part of like, we don't, you know, just to learn more.

And so we went and I was so bothered because the book that they sell there,

it has that scripture on the front cover.

And essentially, and you look like the Journal of Discourses, prophets, you

know, passages talking about, like, especially about Mexican people, they

would talk and, you know, native descended or native people in general, they would

talk about, and bring up like, oh, pretty much after being converted and

following the church, they became whiter.

They became lighter.

Can you believe it?

This shows how great the church's teachings are.

And I'm like, it's all documented.

So this book has it on the cover and it has a picture of a bunch of brown people.

And then it has that on top.

So I got it just for that reason, because I wanted to have proof of it.

And I wanted, I was tempted to email them.

I, I'm like, I need to calm down before doing so.

But I, but I didn't.

It's still not too late, but um, it's been sitting, you know, on

my bookshelf for about a decade.

And I'm so annoyed still about it.

That's wild.

Thank you for sharing that.

Um, when you were talking and we were sharing about, you know,

when you're talking, explaining to our listeners about, um, Laman

and Lemuel, it was interesting.

When I was kind of exploring different versions of Mormonism

while in Mormonism, coming into my baby feminist stage in Mormonism.

Um, Um, but also realizing, you know, being, what do we call Asian?

Are we do, are Asians, are we considered brown?

Are we considered, you know, I just, I just go with persons of color.

Cause that's what feels most safe to me.

Like how do, how do I fit into the grand scheme of the ideology and

the belief system of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

And what do I want my children to know?

Because they're, they're like a weird percentage because

I'm three quarters Japanese.

And so they're like 38 percent Japanese.

But how do I want my kids to feel in this belief system that's very,

very, very whitewashed and feels very call, you know, has a real

colonial colonization feel to it.

Um, and it was interesting as I was kind of looking at, um, Mormon literature

written by, you know, Mormon authors, people that are still believers

within Mormonism, but had a little bit more of a nuanced take to Mormonism.

Um, one book that I found and, um, she's a fiction writer, you may

have to put it in the show notes.

I can't remember her name.

Um, but I loved the books that she wrote and there was one that she wrote

and I, I'm going to tear up thinking about it because it just really spoke

to me was called The Book of Laman.

I don't know if you you ever read it

hmm.

Mm hmm.

You may not have because I think I read it in like 2017

Okay.

But it's about Laman's take on the book of Nephi

ooh,

It was it still may be a very interesting read now for

right.

I'm curious as to where you are now within, within Mormonism.

Um, but when I read it, I felt such a connection to it cause it really came

from a place of like struggle and, you know, just cause growing up, we had

really seen it as they were very vilified, like they were wicked and they were,

you know, rebellious and they fought against their father, Lehi, and they, you

know, tied up their righteous brother.

Um, but we never got the perspective of Laman and Lemuel,

like what were they going through?

What was their experience?

And as I've matured as a human being, I really wanted to know

different perspectives in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon.

Like what are women's take on, you know, what happened when Jesus was on earth?

Or why aren't there more stories within the Bible or Book of Mormon

where women are actually named, you know, and I would ask friends

about it or my spouse at the time.

And the answer that I consistently got was, oh, there's stories,

you just have to look for it.

And I would look and I wouldn't find anything.

And the thing that I really appreciated towards the end of my journey in Mormonism

was there was a lot more coming out about women in, in the scriptures,

you know, women in the Bible, there's, volumes of, of text of, um, people taking

dedicated time to research women in the Bible and the Old and New Testaments.

And I don't know if there was one that ever came out about the book of Mormon,

but back to reading the book of Laman, it just like this story was granted, it was

fictionalized and it was this woman's, this, the author's take of how she felt

Laman was experiencing, you know, coming to the Americas and, you know, how he felt

after he tied Nephi up on the ship and how he felt when, you know, he was forced to

go and get the scriptures, you know, the brass plates from Laman and, or Laban.

And it just was such a beautiful read.

I almost want to go back and read it because, um.

It's bringing up a lot of emotion for me.

I remember reading it and thinking about it when we were on family vacation

in southern Utah, and I just kept feeling so connected to that story.

And even now leaving, having left Mormonism three years ago, I wish

that there were more things like that available, whether, especially for people

that decide to stay in Mormonism, you know, to have, um, stories written for

them about that they can identify with more and not, you know, read the Book of

Mormon and, and feel detached from it, but feel like they have to believe it because

they're told that they have to believe it.

You know what I mean?

hmm.

Mm hmm.

It's also beautiful to see the journey that Mormonism

has taken for a lot of people.

Like there's a lot of people that are still in that are really working to make

Mormonism a place where people can stay, you know, if they, if they choose to stay.

And I, I really appreciate those, those individuals who are doing that work

because there is something to be said about having a belief system and having

a community and, but it's hard when you can't find yourself in a lot of,

of, you know, the, the images, the, the pictures that are used in Mormonism,

you know, you can't see yourself,

The The pioneer stories.

which, you know, then they say, you know, you can, you're

a pioneer in your own right, but it's like, I don't identify with those people

crossing the plains and suffering.

And yes, like I have ancestors on my dad's side that probably

have crossed the plains.

I actually have not done a lot of family history.

That was one thing I didn't really love was the family

history aspect of the church.

But, you know, I did have family members that did cross the plains as I'm sure if

you'd, anyone does any research into their family history, but it, yeah, I, it's not

something that a lot of people of color.

You know, brown people can really identify with, which we do have

our own versions of our, our own people coming into this country.

And it's not necessarily that, but it is, it does resonate with us.

And I wish that we had more of that in, in the form of religion,

if, if that calls to people.

Right.

Yeah, it's just interesting that growing up in, even in my

congregation in El Paso, Texas, you know, which is on the border, there was a good

mix of, you know, we had black people, we had brown people, we had white people.

I, but I was the only Asian in my congregation.

and.

I don't think I really came into my Asian ness until I got to BYU.

And I would really love to talk about our, our time at BYU.

Um, but yeah, we may have to come back to this.

It's not, it's not feeling easeful, but, um, yeah, let's talk about BYU.

Yeah, Yeah, ha

What, how, how did you end up there?

Like, is it, because we know that BYU, for listeners out there, BYU is

a church owned, supported university.

And so, the tuition is subsidized by the monies that church members

give in their tithe offerings.

And so it makes it very economical for, you know, Mormon kids to go to

Brigham Young University because tuition is subsidized and it's significantly

less expensive than going even sometimes to the state institution.

Um, so how did you end up at Brigham Young University?

Provo, because they do have different campuses.

They also have the Hawaii one, which I heard is much more

difficult to get into, but

Okay.

I didn't

how Provo?

Yeah.

So I always wanted to go ever since I was a kid.

Um,

love that.

I love that for you.

I can just see you with, like, a little

I was quite the little Mormon boy with, I had a little BYU

Oh my god,

I was so sad when, I was so sad when it flew off and I lost

it when we were on a family trip in Mexico in, in Ensenada, I was

like, oh, the wind took it away.

I was so sad.

But, so I just wanted to go there.

My eldest brother went there.

So it was something that always kind of had to, you know, to model after,

um, I went through a period as a kid wanting to go to BYU Hawaii.

Like, oh, that just sounds so cool, being in Hawaii on a tropical island.

Um, that dream was just very short lived.

But either way, I wanted to go to a BYU campus.

And so Provo was what I had in mind.

And I went to SOAR, um, which was their...

Um, summer of academic refinement, which was for, um, students of color, um, and or

I think it's since it's expanded a little bit, but it's still students of color and

lower income backgrounds, first generation college students, like a combination,

but all of us were students of color.

And, um, it's before your senior year of high school.

So I went there, and essentially they help prep you for college, help prep

you for admissions to BYU, prep you for the ACT, and you actually take

the ACT there as well, which is a standardized test for those who aren't

familiar with the ACT versus the SAT.

Um, and, so that was, that was where I wanted to go.

And then when I went to SOAR, that's where I got to meet the people from the

multicultural office and the recruiters.

Really bonded with some of them, made some great connections and, um,

relationships with some of the staff and there'll be our counselors or, um,

recruiters and different office personnel.

Some of which I'm still, you know, in communication with on social media.

And, um, so it was great.

I, the recruiter who I love so much, um, she was, she really walked me

through the process of admissions.

She actually personally told me that I was accepted to BYU over the phone.

That's so

Um, because it was like a journey of like having to submit more documents

and have to send this and send that.

I was, um, a first generation college student, grew up low income, um, while

my parents, they had some experience, um, in college at a community college.

Um, you know, life happens as an adult, and so pretty much just working,

marriage, kids, um, that, that took over.

Um, so even though they didn't have the opportunity of college education,

they definitely encouraged it.

Um, so BYU felt in reach because of, you know, it was a Mormon owned church.

We constantly would hear about it.

My father went there, a lot of cousins went there, and so

it's just where I wanted to be.

So I was very thankful that I was accepted.

Um, it was through the Multicultural Office, so I definitely had a

lot of support through them.

Um, I was very fortunate to be granted a scholarship through them as well.

And this is where I wanted to be, so I was super ecstatic.

Overall I love the experience, uh, cause where I want it to be, a

fresh, being a freshmen's always an adjustment at first year, you know,

being out of state, um, was, it's always in being adjustment period.

and I was fortunate to have, you know, some cousins at the school,

but other cousins in the area, just extended family in the area in

general is very lucky to have that.

As well as friends, people from SOAR, people from childhood, so it

was very, I was fortunate to not, I knew people already, so that helped.

but being at a PWI, uh, so primarily white institution, is very interesting.

Um, very, and BYU does love their acronyms as well as, as does education

in general, but BYU loves their acronyms.

Um, it was a big adjustment for me.

Um, you know, I grew up in Southern California where it's very diverse.

I was used to have, being around all people of color, just very diverse group

of people at all, most of the time.

And being where you're by far the minority was really an adjustment for me.

And thank goodness for the Multicultural Office, um, and all their activities

and programs I was part of, and meeting you and your group of friends.

Um, other friendships that I, you know, had there was very helpful to make that

world much smaller and where most of my close friends there were people of color,

um, with the exception of, you know, a few token white people, um, which I,

which I, which I built is the opposite, right, where I built good relationships

with or still in touch with, right?

Some of our mutual friends as well.

So, so I am appreciative of all that.

It took a turn though, um, because it was around this time when I was having to

figure myself out and my sexual identity.

So it was a really difficult time.

It was a mixed bag because it was both so much fun and so exhilarating

and I loved the knowledge.

I loved the experience.

You know, with some struggles there too though because I

was a new college student.

But then being away and trying to figure it out, because, you know,

I was 18 and, you know, at the time, 19 was the missionary age.

And what I didn't want to do, and this is just for me only,

what I didn't want to do was...

go on a mission and figure it out there.

I wanted to have it figured out before I went, before I did the whole temple thing.

I wanted to be clear about who am I, where do I stand with

this about my sexual identity.

So that's why I put that on myself.

Looking back, I was very young.

I could, I had a lot more time to figure it out if I wanted, but

I didn't want to do that because of my belief in the church.

I knew that their stance on that.

So I didn't want to necessarily, I had to be true to myself, but without

what I thought was disrespecting their teachings at the same time,

um, which was a really hard balance.

So that's why at 18, essentially I kind of put that on myself, while a

BYU student, um, to start exploring.

And so with that, that doesn't really, you know, coincide being a BYU

student and exploring your sexuality.

Um, but I felt like I owed it to myself to do that.

Um, it was, it was a struggle though, because there's so much

Mormon guilt, um, that was attached.

So it was really hard.

Like, definitely looking back on it, I definitely think I had periods of,

of some depression there after I would explore, um, the depth, there was

a lot of, you know, self isolation.

There was, um, it was hard looking back on it and I will still try

to figure out what's next, right?

Because after freshman year, that's time to go on a mission.

So I had my year of trying to figure it out and exploring.

I didn't attach an identity to it.

I just attached actions.

Um, I didn't attach identity to the actions.

I just saw them as actions.

And at the end, uh, which is, kind of coincides with Mormonism too.

There's homosexual, quote, homosexual tendencies and same sex attraction,

I hate those words.

versus your actual identity.

Me too.

Me too.

They're so frustrating.

So I spoke with my bishop at BYU.

Um, I stayed for the first summer term.

Um, I think you may have been

I was there with you, yeah.

Yeah, and you know I was suffering in silence for the most part,

um, with all this, and I eventually did confide in one friend who was

going through something similar.

So thankfully we had each other at that time.

Um, but all in all, we were also handling it differently.

And so it was, it was just a very hard time for both of us.

And so I spoke to the Bishop and, it actually went pretty well, I would

say as well as it could have gone.

But because of the timing of it, you know, I'm about to go home for, the

school year now, from the school year.

And so I didn't now, because I had to work through it, right, like through

the repentance process, I would now have to tell my home bishop as well.

So I essentially had to tell two bishops.

And looking back on it, I mean, at that time, it's just the norm,

Yeah.

But looking back on it, it's so, um, not only is it so

vulnerable, but it's violating.

You are literally telling a middle aged man, or older man, what

you have done, giving details.

It feels odd.

It's so fucking invasive.

can feel, yes, yes!

And so, long story short, essentially I would have had to have gone on

a mission to clear everything up.

Essentially, to go back to BYU to, you know, continue BYU with my scholarship.

you know, and then kind of go along my merry way.

So both bishops, all in all, were willing because they saw

that I did feel very guilty.

I did want to go on a mission.

I came from a family who's very missionary minded, and so I was starting the process.

Of course, the bishop at home was encouraging that I date girls.

as well.

And I'm like, oh, I don't really want to.

Um, but he was trying to be understanding.

He did have a scientific approach to some of his things, which the

first time I had heard some of that.

Um, so, okay, cool.

So he was, I think he did try.

I think both bishops did try.

Um, but all in all, once I saw like, I was figuring out if

this is really just who I am.

I stopped responding to correspondence, and then it became a big deal.

So, essentially, long story short, I was on the run, on the run, and what I

felt like on the run, for a long time.

You were a fugitive.

You're a fugitive from the morgue.

a fugitive.

I was a fugitive.

And all while virtually alone, um, thankfully at that time, as

I did have, I was in a long term relationship that had started.

And thankfully for him and his support, I started expressing bits and pieces to

like a close friend or to my close cousin, but without getting, giving details.

Um, the only one at the time that knew all the specifics were, um, my then boyfriend.

and I think actually my other close friend at the time who was also

going through something similar.

So those were the only two.

So I felt, it was very scary, you know, living at home and

just trying to start your life.

And I was working full time now at this time, not going

to school, because I still...

not telling people that I decided not to go on a mission yet and just trying

to prolong all these conversations, put off all these conversations as long as

I could, um, just trying to do my thing.

Um, so it's interesting because the church, my sexuality, and my personal

relationships, my familial relationships, so professional education, it's all

very intertwined for a long time.

And it was inevitable.

So it was really complicated.

So the life definitely took a turn that I was not, I never

would have expected, to be honest.

I had everything mapped out, you know, when you're Mormon, you kind of do.

And when certain things are expected of you, whether it be from the church or from

school or whatever, or just personally, you have it all mapped out and I did.

And when none of that happens or in that order or to those types, that gender

of people, it's really, it's really.

It throws you off.

And it took a long time for me to figure it out because I was in hiding and

having to protect myself and survive while still trying to move ahead.

Um, it was a lot.

it was a lot.

Yeah.

Wow.

Oh, my heart, Marcos.

Thank you for sharing that.

It feels, like I can't imagine having to navigate all of that alone, you

know, I know that you had a couple of people, but just, I, and maybe

my, I'm assuming, but I, I know you to be a very social and loving

person, you love being around people.

So I can imagine that that was just so, probably heartbreaking, and terrifying,

and just potentially made it much more difficult to even try to work through

some of those things because you were so extremely isolated and you couldn't

reach out when you needed people.

Thank you.

And you're exactly right.

It, it, through my young adulthood and actually adulthood

overall, I had to change.

I kept my circle very small.

Um, I grew up in a family that's also very private as well.

So I was kind of already used to, you know, being selective what I would share.

But that was kind of normal for me, but to have to be so selective

about who I can let into my life.

I may, I delayed on getting on social media.

I dreaded bumping into people because I didn't know what wasn't be said or

what wasn't be asked or what was heard.

And so it made it very, very hard, to create new relationships as an

adult, like friendships as an adult.

So thankfully, I was able to take in the circle of my then, um, my then boyfriend.

And we, you know, we had a very long term relationship.

We're still close friends.

I'm still good friends with his family.

So thank goodness for all their support that I've had for a very long time.

Um, and then fast forward now, you know, being married to a

wonderful man and having his circle.

And so, really, it's through them and their circles were my closest people

in my life, while also being selective who I would let in through work,

through school, um, along the way.

So it definitely did change, like, any, any idea of, like, developing

new friendships and socializing that I would have had during my time at BYU.

It had to shift.

And so it was hard, and then you kind of get used to it,

and that becomes your new norm.

Um, and when people do kind of like do you dirty along the

way about your sexual identity.

Um, and there's betrayal there that you just start to trust less

people and you start to just once again keep your circle even smaller.

And so it makes it hard.

It does.

Um, but you're right.

And I appreciate you seeing that and understanding that because I

don't think a lot of people would.

I, people would at the time in my early twenties, I would hear comments,

like they sensed a shift in me.

But I think it's funny because at that time we're growing up.

There were times where I was a little bit different than my usual

self and no one thought to ask why.

And that's what kind of hurts looking back on it.

That's something that recently hit me.

It's like, okay, I remember going through a really angsty period in

middle school and I remember people telling me, you're being different.

What's going on with you?

And the same thing happened when I was trying to hide my relationship and

hide the, prevent conversations about mission and BYU in my early twenties.

And I was having to be very quiet and not talk about my life, ask about their life.

And there were people that, that kind of called me out on being different,

um, or thought something was going on.

And so I think some people may have tried.

Did anyone stop to think, was I okay?

You know what I mean?

And that's what kind of hurts looking back on it.

Like, did anyone stop to think if I was okay?

Because I was on autopilot.

I was in survival mode.

And, facing it from a lot of people, it doesn't help, and it makes it hurtful.

Like, as a kid growing up, being perceived as gay was

yeah, yeah, yeah,

Very, very hard.

And, and it literally started from before kindergarten, but at least kindergarten,

all the way up through, it never ended.

And that was hard, your whole educational experience, um, having to deal with

questions and assumptions and, and negative comments being made to you.

And no one, did anyone ever stop to think, was I okay?

Because I was sure trying to put on a happy face,

Yeah.

but at home it was, I was hard, I was struggling.

And so same thing as an adult.

So I thank you for kind of seeing that, um, because it was

just, definitely far from easy.

Yeah.

I can imagine.

In regards to your sexuality, was it something that you noticed,

like you knew about yourself since the time that you were little?

And it just, you know, because of Mormonism, it was something

that, you know, just like, we, we don't acknowledge it.

It's not, we're not labeling it.

We're not putting a face to it because I can't.

And then when you got to college, then it was like, okay, well,

we're already on this journey of like, we're away from home, we're

experiencing new things and people now.

It's okay.

Um, great question.

It's so complicated.

It's one of those things where I'm very young, I would say probably around four

is when I know that I knew there was something different you know, like,

you don't I, at least in my experience and many others, you know, in our age

groups experience that I've heard, you don't necessarily attach an identity

to it, you don't attach a word to it.

But you know, it's just something's different about you.

And, you know, I did notice, men.

You know, men did catch my attention at times.

And, so I did know that, starting pretty young.

I didn't do anything with it until some online communications like later

in high school, but still very rare and still like trying to tune it out.

And then it wasn't until probably after graduation of high school when I was

more exploring more things online.

Um, and then going through early college years, um, is when I started, college

year, I guess, first freshman year is when I started doing more of that, um,

because I wanted, I still was unsure.

Because looking back on it, I think I was emotionally attracted to girls.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I definitely, I had the emotional, cause I had a lot of crushes

and this is not, and I, you know, I thought girls were pretty, and I, you

know, did some experimentation with girls, you know, first base type stuff,

um, but that's kind of where it stops.

Um, there wasn't anything strongly physical there, minus,

oh, they're a pretty girl.

You know, I'm supposed to marry a girl one day, so I'll get married to

a girl, you know, who's in this, we're gonna have a lot of kids, we're gonna

have a big wedding, um, of course I'll be the one to plan the wedding.

Yes.

But, let me, I'm gonna pick out your dress.

Yes

But, um, so it was all that type of thing, there was always a conflict,

everything was conflicting, right?

This dichotomy of this, you know, this versus that.

So it was complicated.

I did start having feelings of very young, um, but I was just trying

to be who I was throughout my life.

And it just, when you see that who you are is being ridiculed, then that's hard.

And that's when you start thinking about it more.

And I remember starting in early high school, maybe end of middle school,

but starting early high school, I was literally praying to be less feminine,

to be perceived as more as less feminine.

I would literally pray.

And I actually went to high school, my first semester of

high school was actually in Utah.

Um, cause my closest cousins had moved and we're like, oh, let's start,

let's go to high school together.

And there was some talk at the time of maybe my family moving to Utah

eventually, as in many Mormon families.

Um, and that didn't happen, but I started my first semester, um, in Utah.

And a lot of the reason that I never shared with anyone was, a

lot of them wanted a fresh start.

And I was basically trying to escape the comments , are you gay?

Or you are gay.

Or, and also there's nothing wrong with being gay, but at the time it

was definitely used as an insult, it wasn't a compliment, and, um, I wanted

a fresh start, and I figured if I move and start fresh, maybe I'll have that.

And actually I did at first, it was good, life was good, I was doing really well

in school, I was being more disciplined, because my cousin I was living with

was very disciplined, so I kind of like, followed his example with that.

Um, you know, there was the whole girl thing going on, there was

some attention, making friends.

This is nice.

And then boom, the end of that year, it started happening there too.

And because one of my closest friends I made there who was

the same, we were the same boat.

We were both perceived as gay.

Because that's who you're going to bond with or people that are very

similar to you and similar interests.

So we both had our love of divas and so we bonded.

And it started happening there.

And I was like, no, like, I obviously can't hide from this.

I can't run from it.

I should actually say I was there for the first semester.

So towards the end of that first semester it happened, then I ended up moving back

home with my parents and started back at my home school where I would have gone.

And it was actually worse there than ever, which was the irony, is I left to try to

escape it and then when I came back now in high school, it became very opposed to

just like individual comments, it became like systematic or systemic hearsay per

se, um, where there were like legit rumors now going around of things I didn't do.

And it's like, what is this?

It felt very strange to me.

So it was really hard.

That time period was very hard.

But the irony is through church through trying to just work like, you know, in

the 90s, you know, mid to late 90s when we were, at that time, um, you know,

kind of learning more about ourselves.

Self help was a big genre of reading, like all the Chicken Soup books.

I was diving into those Chicken Soup books.

I was diving into seminary.

I was going to all the youth activities.

I, um, eventually started working and, you know, extracurriculars, um, you know,

that really helped me come into my own, come out of my shell, feel more confident.

And when I was feeling more confident, I was able to tune out all the BS.

It still happened, but I felt more comfortable with trying to tune it out.

Um, and throughout the end of high school.

Um, so that was helpful.

And same thing there was very much, um, this duality of I felt very isolated.

I felt almost like I had no friends.

I was tired of feeling a certain way.

But on the flip side, I did have friends.

I did have this.

I did have that.

But it was always like an internal struggle.

Um, and I was, you know, that struggle became exhausting.

Yeah, because you weren't able to show your authentic

self to people because the fear of, you know, them finding out this big part of

yourself, which, you know, if we can't authentically show who we are, that,

you know, there was probably multiple layers for you and tell me where, if

I'm wrong, but navigating as a Chicano man in Mormonism where it's completely

whitewashed and now you have this other layer of your identity that's complicating

things and it's just like I can't...

where do I fit in?

Who can I trust?

You know, and it's just a So difficult and understandably why

you just kind of, just went inward.

Yes.

Yes.

Especially in, when you're talking about that stage in

your twenties when you were navigating a relationship with a man, but also

having to keep a lot of these things secret and just kind of running

from, if we want to call it this, the retaliation from the church, you know,

and, we can, we can get into that.

But it just, trying to navigate all of that and, also 20s is a time where you're

trying to figure out still who you are and, you know, you're wanting to share

this part of yourself but you can't and, that's, that's a heavy, heavy load, man.

It honestly was.

And it's one of those things, I didn't even realize how heavy it was until

probably my early to mid thirties.

Um, because I was literally in survival mode for a long time.

Um, and.

It wasn't until afterwards, and there took a little, a few breakdowns,

and, because when you just have no, no choice but to survive, and then

when you kind of like can breathe.

I then kind of had a little mini breakdown and, um, was like, damn,

like, I was really young going through a lot of shit and I didn't

give myself enough credit for that.

And it wasn't until I started telling my story more to a few people that

I kind of saw their reactions.

I was like, oh, I guess I was a lot stronger than I realized,

or that did take strength.

To me, I always kind of tried to be true to myself, whatever that meant.

I think that's just something that maybe is through all my struggles

in childhood without realizing it.

It's just I had to develop strength and I had to be true to who I was and mixed with

how I was raised about always trying to do your best and be proud of who you are.

So maybe those things were just kind of, you know, entrenched,

but it took a lot of strength that I didn't give myself credit for.

It was hard.

I was essentially a kid, a very new, new adult, having to battle institutions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, legitimate institutions.

Yeah.

Put on us by society, put on us by religion.

Yeah.

And those are, they're all consuming because they're everywhere.

You can't escape that, you know?

Exactly.

And then having these adult adults seeking you out to check in on you

and come to your work and try, yeah.

I can't imagine that.

Must have been absolutely terrifying.

It was so terrifying.

Like and looking back on it now as an adult who works with young people, I get

a sliver of it of like, you're just trying to find them where they're at, see how

Yeah, and, cause you legitimately care about

these people as individuals, but what is the underlying purpose?

Exactly.

It was scary.

All of a sudden I'm at work, and then all of a sudden the bishop's there.

Because I wasn't responding to messages that were being left for me at home, um,

eventually, when I would occasionally go to church for, um, like family things,

like farewells, homecomings type thing, you know, the stake president would then

try to connect with me if he saw me.

And that felt weird, but all that stopped once I was no longer

eligible to go on a mission age wise.

I, I, I saw the connection.

So I, yes, so I think they were trying to, in one hand, still work with me to

see if we can get them all, quote, on the right path, get them on a mission.

And then the other hand is, what else can we maybe have a meeting with him about?

So I just, my go to at that point was just avoidance.

Like, I have to survive.

I'm not dealing with this.

Please stop, you know, in my head, please stop bothering me.

So once again, thank goodness for the support I did have.

Um, because I don't know if I would have survived, to be honest.

Um, it's really nuts to get back on it.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's, it's so interesting to me, the tactics and the,

the methods that they use.

Like, what, what, what age were you when the, the call stops.

I, I'm assuming like most people are considered ineligible to serve

a mission at about, what, 25 or 26?

Yeah, I think at that time it was 26.

So once I turned 27, I stopped hearing from them.

And I kind of noticed that a few years after it clicked, I'm like, oh

wait, I think that's why it stopped.

It feels so gross to me that like, their only reason

for, you know, granted, we're not saying that this is generalized across

the board for churches, people for, that are members of the Church of

Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

A lot of people really legitimately do care about people.

But just the methods that they went about to keep you in a certain space,

in a certain box And to just like keep tabs on you in a really invasive way.

Like, you know, instead of just respecting that, if you wanted to

come back, you would have come back.

And like, we were taught growing up, like, yes, the power of

the atonement is huge, right?

Like if we truly believe in Christ as our savior, he will fix everything, right?

No matter where we end up, like if we end up committing, in your book,

probably, you know, as you're looking at the ultimate sin of entering into

a homosexual relationship, right?

If they truly believe what they were teaching, they should have just let you

come back and say, you know, I'm ready to do this instead of just like running after

you in a way that just felt terrifying.

Right,

it was like,

Right, Exactly.

You know, I like to think of it as like, what would Jesus do?

We used to have those bracelets growing up.

Like, what would Jesus do?

And that doesn't feel like something that Jesus would.

So it's just, it's very curious to me, the tactics that they...

take to like keep people in and using like such a fear model, right?

Instead of just like loving people and trusting that the space that they're

in that they'll come back if they choose to come back instead of just

coming at it from the space of fear.

And we know that as humans like if we approach anything with fear

that the outcome is going to be completely different and we can't

keep people in that space when we're coming from the space of fear.

So, it's interesting.

It's, yeah, it's just very, Mormonism is just very interesting.

I feel like we could spend hours talking about it, but it's just

like when it comes to things of like disfellowshipment or excommunication,

Um, Uh,

there is a lot of stigma behind it, especially when

you have family members that are still active in the church, right?

Like, or you have a son that's not serving a mission.

There's a lot of people that are sitting in the congregation, this happened to me

with a dear friend here in town, whose son came home early from a mission,

and she was very cautious about who she told as to the legitimate reason why.

And fortunately, like, it happened when COVID was pretty

at it pretty much at its peak.

And so they kind of were able to use that as you know, COVID got too much.

He was in an unsafe area.

You know, it was um, even though there's a lot of people still were

out serving missions during COVID.

But it just like, I, my heart broke for her and I, I'm thinking about, you know,

the perspective of your mother, as me as a mother, like how it must have been,

and I can't speak to her experience, but I know that for a lot of women

that have, are in Mormonism and have sons, cause mostly sons are required

within Mormonism to go on missions.

RIght?

Because that's one of the boxes you check to be a worthy priesthood holder

and worthy of being married to, you know, someone for time and all eternity.

And it's, you know, did they serve a full time mission?

If they didn't serve a mission, you know, what's wrong with them?

And I just feel like the, stigma that comes from not serving a mission must

have um, added a different layer for you as well, like, you know, looking

at it from, um, the lens of, you know, how is this going to affect my family

that are still very much in, um,

Exactly.

No, you're right, because I...

I'm the only one in my immediate family that did not go on a mission.

So all my siblings, my parents, um, you know, most of my cousins went.

Um, very missionary minded family.

I always wanted to go.

That was always the plan, you know, and looking back on it, there was a time where

I was seen as the goal, I think a golden boy, maybe not the golden boy, but a

golden boy in the family and in the area.

And so, I think it was expected, and, um, so I think it really surprised people,

and that's when tongues started wagging.

What's going on?

And for me, I just isolated and hid from it all.

And like, I'm just gonna do my own thing now.

But it was still going on until I think maybe people finally

found someone else to do that.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, so there was a big thing too.

I was lucky because I didn't get as much from my family as

I was expecting about that.

But what did happen was already enough.

Um, and at that point was more just like, separation, and people were just saying it

with me not around, so it was very hard.

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