What even is a ‘perfect’ activist?

Tori Tsui (she/they) is a Bristol-based climate activist, speaker, writer and consultant from Hong Kong. She is the co-founder of the space, Bad Activist Collective, and a member of the climate coalition, Unite For Climate Action. In 2023, they released their debut book 'It's Not Just You', which explores the intersections between mental health and the climate crisis.

To kick off the first episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover sits down with Tori Tsui to explore how to be a bad activist. In this conversation, Clover and Tori discuss the pressure they've felt to be perfect activists, explore how the fear of being a ‘bad activist’ has dissuaded people from joining the climate movement, and, finally, Tori spills their juiciest climate confession!

“We’ve got to broaden this view of what activism entails, and recognise that direct action is one part of the puzzle.” -Tori Tsui

You can purchase Tori’s book here.

Follow Tori:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/toritsui_/

Website: https://www.toritsui.com/

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Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”.

What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone?

Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family.

See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions.

After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

Welcome to the first episode of "Confessions of a Climate Activist".

When I turned 11, I declared to my parents that I wanted to become an activist. It was a bold statement, built on the promise to myself that I wouldn’t just be an activist, but the most devout one possible. 12 years later, and I'm a strict vegetarian… except when I gorge on salmon sushi, kitchen lights off, should anyone discover this shameful secret (like my boyfriend, who I only half-jokingly remind "meat is murder" when he orders a hamburger).

I don't shop fast fashion…. except socks. No matter how "sustainable" I want to be, I can’t justify 20 bucks on a bit of eco-cloth to swaddle my feet. Come to think of it, I haven't *really* had to buy clothes because of those I'm gifted by brands hoping I’ll model them to my Insta-following.

I refuse to drive a car, aka a gas-guzzling, planet-destroying combustion engine… except when it's an *absolute* emergency, like when it's raining.

I’ve posted petitions against the toxic and destructive mining of copper and lithium — from a smart device that wouldn’t function without them.

Over the past decade, my idealistic activism has become a parade of caveats and contradictions. Does this make me a “bad activist”? Some people think so. Followers on social media don’t hesitate to share their ‘disappointment’ in me when I post a photo of myself with a disposable coffee cup, or travelling on a plane to a new speaking engagement.

In the past, when I’ve read these messages, they often throw me into a tailspin of self-doubt and guilt. I was curious to see if anyone else grapples with these feelings, so we asked the Force of Nature community to share their thoughts on being a ‘bad activist…’

Community member 1:

My name is Eloise. I'm French, living in the UK. I used to be involved with Extinction Rebellion. I felt like that was proper activism because it was civil disobedience. I was on the ground doing action, but since I have trained in media to tell longer stories about the climate crisis and social issues, and because I'm not directly involved in campaigns, I feel like I'm not directly involved and therefore I feel like I'm a bad activist.

Community member 2:

My name is Sheyi and one example that comes to mind is earlier this year, when I had a really important meeting based on my work in communicating sustainability, and because I had no electricity for a while, I had no choice than to use generator to power my system. And I remember after that meeting, I started feeling like a fraud and I started feeling like an imposter, like I'm trying to solve something but yet contributing to it. What I have learned to do is to start with the things that I can do, start with the choices that I can make and focus on the power of community and collaboration.

Community member 3:

The phrase, we don't need a handful of people doing zero waste perfectly, we need millions of people doing it imperfectly, has never been truer. We need everyone showing up in their own capacity and ability to address the unjust systems that have made it so difficult to live life sustainably. There is no such thing as a perfect activist. So why do we strive for it?

Clover Hogan:

Something that really stuck out to me here is the feeling of imposter syndrome; or that question of am I really doing enough? We polled our community at Force of Nature to see how many had felt pressure to be the ‘perfect’ activist and 100% said they had. 100%! When we asked them what it actually means to be a ‘bad activist’, people mentioned skipping protests; others said ‘being hypocritical’ or ‘performative’. Yet we’re all living in a system that makes us complicit in the climate crisis, right? So short of moving to a deserted island, growing our own food, and generating our own energy, I’m struggling to see how any of us can avoid hypocrisy or inconsistency.

To help us get some clarity, I’ve invited my friend Tori Tsui onto the show. I’ll let her introduce herself.

Tori Tsui:

My name is Tori Tsui. I use she / they pronouns. I'm based in the UK, but I am from Hong Kong. And I would describe myself as a bad activist, specifically a bad climate justice activist, which is a testament to the power of being imperfect and showing up authentically in this space. and I'm also an organiser with a few different climate groups and coalitions. Very grateful to be part of this big diverse community. And I'm officially a writer now, so I'm going to start using that. Woo! I'm a writer.

Clover Hogan:

That's super exciting. Quick plug, you want to share the name of your book?

Tori Tsui:

Yeah, as a testament to the power of community, it's called It's Not Just You. And it's, yeah, all about navigating the mental health and climate crisis. through a climate justice lens.

Clover Hogan:

Amazing. I'm very, very excited to read it. That is such a brilliant segue into the big subject that we're diving into today. Obviously, the intention behind this entire season of the podcast has been to talk about, you know, imperfect activism. I recognised in myself and in observing my community how the pressure to be perfect can be a source of burnout and can, you know, be a source of eco-anxiety; can prevent a lot of people from even wanting to engage in the community. We asked our community ahead of time how many of you have ever felt that pressure to be perfect in activism and amazingly 100% of people said yes. 100% of people said they'd felt that pressure to be the perfect activist. And we asked them, you know, what in your mind does it look like to be a quote unquote like bad activist? Like what's the inverse of being a perfect activist? And people mentioned not attending protests, being performative on social media, being hypocritical. One person wrote failing to practice what I believe is right. So it's clear that pressure is real. And with that, I'd love to dive into the first question, which is, do you remember the first time you felt that pressure to be the quote-unquote perfect activist?

Tori Tsui:

I think the pressure to be perfect, if I'm really honest, and this might surprise a lot of people, because I go on a lot about the climate community and how amazing it is, but it's actually in organising in the climate movement, which I think a lot of people might find surprising in part because I talk about how much sense of community it gave me and how much joy it gave me as well. But I think because it is such an urgent issue. And because we're seeing how our governments are failing to act accordingly, many of us feel like we have to take the world on our shoulders and you see your friends or comrades doing the same and then there's this whole sort of narrative that's unspoken in many ways that you feel the need to replicate the same work to the same standard. And that can cause, as you mentioned, a lot of burnout, a lot of comparison. And just this need to fill the archetype of what we think an activist is without actually really asking ourselves, like, is this the world that we want to create? Is this a world where, you know, we want to be burned out all the time? And so for me, the antithesis to that is really trying to own those imperfections and say that they are as much a part of me as they are a part of my activism. And then also trying to encourage, you know, conversations about, hey, like we should totally live the world that we want to see. which is we want to be a community together where people feel like they can show up authentically and that they're not judged for making a mistake or for being imperfect. And that for me is kind of the world that I want to envision. So I own these things authentically, or at least I try to, but it's a journey to say the least.

Clover Hogan:

I love that. And are there explicit examples that you can share of like where you maybe internally compared yourself to other activists or where you felt like that kind of impossible standard was being upheld by other activists?

Tori Tsui:

Yeah, definitely. I think the standard for me kind of came from, as I mentioned, organising, especially with direct action groups and feeling like unless I was showing up to a protest every other week then my activism wasn't valid. And that's not to say that direct action isn't important, but I've been doing a lot more reading and understanding of different theories of change and why they're so essential to this movement. And that's really created that space for me to reflect on, okay, what is it exactly that I can contribute and what's my best use of time playing to those strengths. And so for me, I've really been trying to navigate that. And writing has been something that I wanted to do for a long time. I love to write. It brings me a lot of joy. And so I've really tried to lean into that. But yeah, I would... say that probably the times where I felt like I wasn't good enough was when I felt like I had to show up to a protest, but it didn't really allow for the nuance to understand how overstimulating these environments are for me as a neurodivergent person, like the accessibility requirements, the costs of getting to protests all the time, trying to juggle work-life balance on top of that. For me, I've come out the other side being like, Yes, it's important, but we've got to broaden this view of what activism entails and recognise that direct action is one part of the puzzle.

Clover Hogan:

That's such a powerful reflection and I think it really speaks to this kind of image and archetype of what an activist is, who they are, how they engage, what their theory of change looks like. You've spoken to that within the movement and maybe your own personal comparisons and reflections. your perspective, to what degree do external sources also perpetuate that idea? I'm thinking of the media, journalism. I remember, I think it was around the time of COP, and it was when Greta was suddenly in the media and in the news, and this ridiculous headline about her being spotted on a train with some plastic. I'd love to hear from your perspective, What are those other sources of this perfection and activism? Why do you think we're trying to collectively uphold this image of what activism is supposed to look like?

Tori Tsui:

Yeah, that's a great question. And oh my goodness, I think every single one of us can remember the time when the media felt so compelled to focus on Greta eating from, I don't know, a- with some plastic or something of the like, I can't remember explicitly. I think she was on a train, am I right?

Clover Hogan:

Yeah.

Tori Tsui:

And I was just like, this is such a big distraction from the main culprits of this crisis. What are we doing? What are you doing to this young person who has literally dedicated their whole life to campaigning for a cause and hasn't necessarily asked to be spearheaded as the face of a movement?

For me, it was just really dissonant. And I think you put the nail on the head there, which is that the media is complicit in this. They are obsessed with heralding heroes out of young people, but then tearing them down the next second because it sells stories and because, as we know, a lot of the media is run by climate-skeptic billionaires, so they have a great time lambasting us and humiliating us in the press. So I feel as though that's definitely a factor that plays into it. On top of the fact that, you know, We know that there are so many companies out there that either greenwash their image to make it seem like they're doing more than they actually are, or they try and deflect the blame by saying, what's your carbon footprint? You know, don't get me wrong, all of these things like the individual actions, they do matter. But when you realise that people are trying to weaponise them in a way to detract from their accountability, and I say people being those in charge of massive polluting corporations, then you start to go, hang on a second. What's going on? And what it leads to is this pressure for us to be perfect. And it leads to a lot of people experiencing eco-anxiety and burnout, but it leads to a lot of conflict in this movement. And I've noticed that we get distracted fighting with one another, as opposed to actually realizing that we are our biggest allies and that, you know, this world is full of a lot of people who would want to see us fail because it harms their profits. And so for me, You know, I have to vigilantly ask myself, is this a distraction from the work that we're trying to achieve? Why are we fighting one another? Why are we saying mean things to one another? Why are we tearing each other down when in reality people are just trying to survive this confusing, messy world and they're doing the best with what they have? I think a lot of mental health issues specifically for people in the climate movement come from that. We've fallen into such a cycle of guilt and shame based activism and action that it can kind of become this self-flagellation where it's like, oh, I feel such guilt about not recycling properly or not eating vegan or whatever. But those feelings alone are not inherently sustainable, right? And I think it's quite... healthy reframe to think what are the actions and what is the lifestyle that is consistent with my values, but building in a lot of acceptance around your inconsistency and fallibility because we live in systems that make it inherently difficult to do the quote unquote right thing. So it's like giving a lot more grace.

Yeah, and you have to ask yourself why have I been put in this impossible situation where no matter how much I do, I'm still not able to live a truly sustainable life? quote unquote, you know? And I think when you start to ask those questions, you begin to realise, holy crap, this system was set up in a way to make people fail. You know, I'm not gonna be berating myself anymore for being imperfect because I just feel like I'm doing everything I can with the resources, the time, the energy that I have. And we know that this problem goes deeper than just what we buy and consume. We know that there are systems which... specifically prop up certain industries so that we don't have a choice but to consume through these means. And I also just feel like at the end of the day, a lot of the time people do try to employ individual actions because they don't want to get called out, they don't want to get humiliated, they don't want to be called a hypocrite. And I think a lot of energy is expended doing that, which would otherwise, well, not necessarily otherwise, but which could contribute to them focusing more on the issue at hand, as opposed to that which they believe they have to do in order to be valid. Because you're right, like we've seen how Greta's been lambasted for using plastic. We have all been there, whether it's because we fly, whether it's because we've worked in a realm that people don't deem sustainable, you know, like we've all been there. And I think we just need to have frank conversations about frank and transparent conversations about why we're doing this because a lot of the time it's a pressure. It's a pressure that no one else really sees unless you're in the movement because you do get criticised a lot and it's really tiring.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, it's exhausting. I remember chatting to a really good friend of mine who's quite a big ending plastic pollution advocate. And she, a few years ago, was speaking at this event and she was there for hours and the only food they had on offer was wrapped in plastic. And she forwent eating because she didn't want to have a photo snapped of her eating plastic. And I was just like, this is so stupid. And by no fault of her own, we have created this kind of culture within activism that is such intense scrutiny. And I think it's also important to recognise that as much as perfectionism in activism is being upheld by media, I've been critiqued by people outside of the movement many, many a time. And generally, I find myself pretty resilient. But when that criticism is coming from people you consider your peers, people you consider part of your community, and it doesn't always feel like it's coming in the most loving, constructive way, that's... can be really difficult because then there isn't that kind of foundation of trust or just spaciousness to be human, to not always be perfect, to make mistakes and not have your mistakes be more a definition of your validity in the movement than all of the work that you're doing every day to try and change things.

Tori Tsui:

Yeah, for sure. I think this is also something that I've come to realise. We need to celebrate our comrades and peers as much as we... talk about things that they're doing wrong or things that we don't agree with because I've realised that a lot of people are really struggling in this day and age, unsurprisingly. And a little comment or two saying, like, I think you're doing amazing work or I'm really proud of what you've achieved goes a long way. So I'm going to say that to you today, Clover. I'm proud of you. You're doing great work.

Clover Hogan:

Ditto, Tori.

Tori Tsui:

Because it can be so overwhelming to just feel... yeah, faced with so much negativity and be surrounded by people even in your circles who don't feel like you're doing enough, who don't feel like you're good enough. I do think accountability and loving criticism is important, but it's also a matter of, like you said, doing it in a community-structured way, doing it in a way that is gentle and also trusting and really actually is a journey and not just like, you need to change overnight and do this. It's like no, change takes time. We're all... trying to do the best we can with what we've got.

Clover Hogan:

This kind of like upholding people to impossible standards in my mind sort of like falls into two buckets. So like on the one hand, which we've kind of spoken to, there is this attachment to like perfection, like living in a way that's like quote unquote consistent with your values, living sustainably. And then there's also this element of like the theory of change, right? Like what your actual approach to activism is. And what I've seen a lot in activism is like this kind of mentality of like, this is the way that I'm creating change in the world, ergo, like this is the only way to create change. And I've seen that also in like some of the gatekeeping around like the language of activism of like, oh, you can only consider yourself an activist if you tick X, Y, Z boxes, right? And you kind of alluded to that even like, engaging in certain spaces, like engaging in protests, like if you're someone who is like overstimulated in a space, maybe that's not where you can show up effectively. Like I definitely relate to that. But I'd love to hear from your perspective, like where do you think some of that comes from in terms of this attachment of like my way or the highway? And then we can talk a little bit as well about maybe like accountability and what that... look like in a more constructive way as well.

Tori Tsui:

My way over the highway is such an interesting topic to delve into because I have seen it everywhere and I'm gonna hold my hands up. I've been that person at times too where I was just like no like you can't do it that way it has to be this way. This is what climate justice means and I get it like I get why it exists. Over the years I've learned that we really do need everyone in this battle. fight struggle, if you want to call it that. My friend calls it a dance, which I love. She's like, why can't it be playful? Why can't it be creative? I'm like, I love that. However you want to understand the road ahead. I've just come to realise we need everyone, but also we're never going to achieve what we want in society if we really think that there's only one way to get there. That is a sad reality for some. for others that's a joyful reality. For others, you might not even be bothered, but I think it's the lay of the land. I've come across so many thinkers over the years who recognise that. I was actually talking the other day on social media about something that Edward Said had said, which is that we have to be uncompromising in the values that we hold, but we can be flexible in how we get there. I thought that was quite interesting, and it's quite similar to... what civil rights activist Loretta Ross says about how people who are heading towards a common goal thinking the same way and doing the same things as a cult, but people heading in that direction and doing diverse things and employing diverse theories of change as a movement. I think that's what we want at the end of the day, right? We want to be in a movement. We want to tackle this from so many different angles. There have been a lot of social theorists and political theorists over the years who have really tried to... and what those roles can look like and what those series of change can look like. And there's so many different types, so many different types. And at the end of the day, you have to meet people at where they're at.

Clover Hogan:

I'd love to hear another, you know, on this kind of theme of like what it means to be like imperfect and examining your own role in these spaces and these movements.

One thing that I've definitely struggled with is this kind of like not just like attachment to like how I'm perceived in different activist spaces, but like my attachment to like, whether I think I'm being impactful. And I think that's maybe the base fear that like comes up for me when I have received like criticism or if I compare myself to another activist is like, is what I'm doing like even making a difference? Like am I actually moving the needle? I'd love to hear from your perspective if that's something that you've also had to navigate in terms of like is what I'm doing making a meaningful difference.

Tori Tsui:

Yeah. Oh, wow. Spoke to the heart, Clover. Honestly, I ask myself this question pretty much every day. There are certain days where I'm like, yeah, I think I've made a difference in this tiny little pocket here. Then other days where I'm just like, what am I doing with my life? I need to just drop everything and go straight back into direct action, organizing and stuff. I'm like, calm down. It's okay. It's okay to take stock of where you are. That's healthy. But too much scrutiny can kind of mean that you spend more time thinking about that than actually getting anything done. So that's been a good thing for me to reflect on. But I would say, you know, a lot of this comes from living in a Catholic system, which tells people that they're only as good as the work that they put out and that your responsibility to do good work is down to you. And it's just such a huge myth because as I've mentioned, we're so much stronger when we work with other people. But also, you know, who's to say that me taking time to take care of my body and my mind in community isn't part of that as well? You know, who's to say that being a creative person and wanting to go into a realm of writing and using that as one of my main forms of advocacy is a bad thing or a waste of time. We've been so heavily indoctrinated through the system to think that there are only a few ways to take action, be the change, that we start critiquing the things that are actually our greatest tools for that change, which is really profound and quite interesting and a bit paradoxical to me. And I also just feel like, you know, we're in a situation now where urgency is paramount. We're talking about X number of years to halt the worst of climate breakdown, 1.5 degrees. We're talking about tipping points and all of these things that make us incredibly eco-anxious or other psychoterratic emotions that people relate to. And with that comes the pressure that we put on ourselves to have this one theory of change, act in a certain way that may not be necessarily the most loving, but is the most urgent. and also do things that, yeah, we push ourselves out of our comfort zone to do. The latter I don't think is too much of a problem, but it can be sometimes. And with that urgency, I know that it sounds counterintuitive, and I know that it sounds difficult to do, but slow down. Like, slow down, you know? I know we are up against the clock. I'm not gonna deny that. I'm not gonna deny that the situation is really... you know, not serious, because it's very serious. But my point being is that if you have the capacity and the ability to slow down, you might find ways to work smarter, not necessarily harder, more efficient, and do the work that I think will actually create more impact in the long run, because you're not going to burn out and you're not going to drop everything because we've all been there, right? We've worked so hard to the point where we're just like, I can't do this anymore. I literally can't do this anymore. And we have to find ways to make this sustainable. You know, I've always reiterated that sustainability to me is as much of a mindset as it is a practice.

Clover Hogan:

Just in response to that, like emerging from a place of burnout, have you ever neared a point where you're just like I’m done I don’t want to do this anymore.

Tori Tsui:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I've definitely gone to that point and I've had to check myself sometimes and been like, okay, it's a huge privilege to say I'm done because that is kind of, um, almost not an assault per se, but a real disappointment to, I think, the people that I'm in community with, not that I've ever said this to them or like said, I'm quitting, but you know, I've thought about it and I've been like, I know we can't afford to quit and I know that it would be… Yeah, really privileged and wrong of me to say I'm going to pack it all in. Um, but then also on the other side of it, I think it's not so much about quitting so much as taking breaks. I've reminded myself, okay, if I need to rest, I know there's somebody else out there who will take up the work, so to speak, and if they need to rest, then I'll do the same. And I think that we need to not frame this as, oh, I want to quit, but actually like, how do we slow down? How do we put a pause? a moment for a second so that we can make this sustainable, as I've mentioned. But yeah, I will agree though that I've been at that point and it's not pretty.

Clover Hogan:

You can imagine, and I'm sure you relate to this as well, when you get to the point where you're just like, what am I actually doing? Is this even worth it? It's always in a really difficult time. We wouldn't say that unless the situation wasn't great or was really bad on our health and our wellbeing. And then it's in those moments where I just have to remind myself, like, it's not just you, you're not alone, like, you can slow down. And I've felt really held and supported in those moments. I really relate to that. And I definitely, I have these like, very consistent cycles where I touch on this feeling of like, I'm not doing enough. So my way of coping with that is like being like hyper. productive and like obsessive and like fixating and like throwing everything and then I become so resentful because I'm so exhausted and I don't have the energy for like any of the things that actually fill my cup like seeing friends, like family, whatever. And then I get to this like really low point where I'm like I'm my body through illness or like mental ill health whatever like forces me to stop. And then I come back and I'm like... I'm ready to go again, you know? And I don't know if I've found like a healthy version of that cycle yet, but I will say like time in nature, time in community, like having an identity in the lived experience outside of like, quote unquote, activism is so important to get that perspective.

Tori Tsui:

It really is. And I love that you brought that up because I've had this conversation a lot with people in different spaces that I've been in. One of the things that keeps coming up is like, who are you outside of activism? And I think that, you know, for a lot of people, the lines are very blurred. I'm sure they are for you as well. Um, cause you know, so much of who we are as people and what we care about translates into the work that we do. Um, but I do also think that it is a really important exercise, I don't know if you would call it that, but a really important thing to do to really think, okay, if I am a changemaker, an activist, a mobiliser, an organiser, whatever it is, like what is it that gives you so much unadulterated joy that may or may not be related to the work that you do? And for me, again, lines are blurred, but for me that's foraging, and I think you probably know that I love mushrooms. I love mushrooms and it's so geeky and nerdy. But for me, mushrooms and foraging are just, you know, it comes and goes with the season, so you're just like, oh, I never know what I'm going to find. It's like a game to me. You know, it's really playful. Like, I go out in nature and I don't know what I'm going to find. I can go with friends. I can be alone. I can take a book. You know, every day is different. I love to do that and that's something that... brings me back down to Earth. It keeps me grounded, rooted even. Very literally. Quite literally. And it's something worth fighting for. It's something that you realise you love this planet and you love this Earth and you love what it provides and what it gives. And I think in reflecting on that, it makes me feel like the work that I do is worth it, if that makes any sense. You have a purpose, you have a love. I don't necessarily go to protests with little signs that say, protect the fungus. But in my heart, I think I secretly am like, I'm rooting for you little guy.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah. I love that.

Tori Tsui:

Big guy.

Clover Hogan:

Before we go, one final request. Taking a leaf out of the book about Friends of Climate Curious, we're inviting all of our guests to share climate confessions. And we've also been inviting our community to share. confessions, we set up a box at the Natural History Museum and got all members of the public to share what are those things you feel maybe a little guilty about or make you feel a little bit inconsistent. So I'd love to invite you to share a climate confession. I will go first. I will lay my secrets bare. My confession, I was recently on holiday and I've been vegetarian for 11 years. I occasionally make allowances. And on this occasion, my friends are eating paella. And I was like, I'm gonna try some paella. I'd never had it before. And I ordered this paella and the first bite was so delicious. But then the guilt came crashing down, like this rain cloud. And I was looking at all the little creatures. And I went down this spiral. I was like, what about this little prawn? maybe he's not going to go back to his family. It was so ridiculous. Ridiculous to the point where I couldn't finish this damn paella, which is so unsustainable, right? Like the food waste and everything because of the guilt. So that's my ridiculous climate confession. But do you have any climate confessions you'd like to share?

Tori Tsui:

Thank you for sharing that. I mean, wow, you've taken us on a journey. I mean, like, from like... going on holiday and having paella to having like an existential crisis. I mean, yeah. Like you've ridden the wave and like sit with that and you know maybe it can serve some like space for reflection. Oh I hope so. I'm sure it'll be an Instagram post eventually. Yeah, I mean, hell why not, you know? I bet a lot of people relate to that. This is a really good question. This is a really bad one so you'll have to... deal with this. But I know that there's a big protest that's coming this weekend and I'm only going to one day of it. Is that really? I don't know if that's a climate confession, but you would expect people to drop everything and go to every single day of a protest, especially if it's a really big one. But for me, I was like, no, I want to stay at home and rest because I'm really tired. I know that's not really like... Hey, that's such a... That's not like, what?

Clover Hogan:

No, it's a great climate confession, but you're making me feel better because I too am only going for one day of this protest.

Tori Tsui:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing, I'm trying to wrestle with it in my head. There was a part of me that's just like, how dare you? You should be there every single day showing up with your comrades. And I'm like, yes, that makes sense. And yes, we should show up. And yes, everyone has a duty to fight for this planet. But at the same time, reflecting on just what we've spoken about, I'm so burnt out right now. And it's not, funnily enough, it's not actually to do with... strictly climate stuff. It's to do with other work and it's to do with hosting a lot of people and trying to be a good friend and taking care of a lot of people. I don't have resentment for that at all, but I do need to carve out space for myself to be like, I need me time and this weekend seems to be one of the few times I can actually do that outside of the work week. That's my climate confession.

Clover Hogan:

That is an excellent climate confession. I love it. I'm excited for you to take some Thank you so much, Tori.

Clover Hogan:

Every time I speak to Tori she teaches me something new. I loved how she showed us there’s no such thing as a perfect activist… but also, that trying to attain that is not only impossible, but debilitating. It feels important that we stop trying to hold ourselves to unattainable standards. The more we acknowledge the good work others do, the more people will want to become part of the solution. And hopefully we’ll stop excluding all the people on the outside who do want to engage.

On that theme, in next week’s episode we’re diving into what it means to be an outsider — and how it feels to be excluded from activist spaces. We’ll be hearing from our Force of Nature community again, and I’ll be speaking to not one but two incredible guests: Jaiden Corfield and Ben Hurst.

In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content, check out the first episode of Season 2. We explore the fossil fuel industry and its greenwashing tactics — including its campaign to distract us from systemic solutions by popularising individual lifestyle changes. When you’ve listened, drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment.

If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website.

If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast... well, you know what to do.

This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.