Join Cathie Humbarger to hear her message of hope and desire for the saving of infants, of whom many are facing the death penalty through abortion, unless rescued. Legislation is not enough. Action must be implemented in a way that will help both young and old to know that these children belong to their Creator and Redeemer, Jesus Christ. And that we must get involved to help with their rescue. Hear of Cathie's mission to make our nation abortion-free. Pastor David Schultz hosts. reprotection.org

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to engaging truth, the manifestation of God's word and the lives of people around us. Join us each week. As we explore the impact of his message of spiritual renewal from the lesson of forgiveness forged and the crucible of divorce, to the message of salvation learned by an executioner from a condemned killer to the gift of freedom found in the rescue of victims of human trafficking. This is God's truth in action.

Welcome to engaging truth. This is Dave Schultz, your host for this evening's program. And I have a special guest that I have only met, uh, in conversation, but now this evening we see each other, um, on the screen of a zoom screen. So welcome Kathy humer to engaging truth.

It is my privilege and honor to be with you as a guest, uh, pastor Schultz. And I'm looking forward to the conversation that we're gonna have over the next few minutes.

One of the things that delights us, um, in the work of sharing the Lord, Jesus, is that there are people in the listening audience, uh, who may be lost may, who may be, have fallen away or walked away from Jesus and just need to be encouraged. And so we hope that this program not only touches the, the lost people, but the people who need to be touched again with the message of Christ and him crucified and risen. So tell us a little bit about Kathy Berger.

Well, I was in that category of the lost and wandering for a while, um, when I was much younger and I appreciate grace and compassion that is extended to those who, uh, might be in that situation right now, I was born, uh, in Columbus, Indiana, and, uh, grew up in a, uh, Lutheran church. Missouri Senate home was blessed to be baptized as an infant and go to St. Peter's Lutheran elementary school and be confirmed there as well. Little did I know that that foundation was preparing me for what the Lord had in store for me to do much later in my life. So I lived in Columbus, Indiana until I married my husband and we moved, uh, he was lived in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And so that's where we reside. Now we have three children and, uh, 14 grandchildren. We have one in heaven that we're waiting to meet.

So I said, well, of course, tell me your story. Of course, I'll be your friend. Tell me your story. And, uh, through that, she allowed me to walk through the healing and, uh, forgiveness that we all find for any sin at the foot of the Lord, Jesus Christ cross. And, uh, this sin is no worse than any other sin. Uh, the many that we've all committed. So this was before pregnancy resource centers were even founded, um, wide were widespread across the country. As a matter of fact, there were no pregnancy resource centers in Fort Wayne at the time. And, um, there were real, really no post-abortion ministries as we, uh, see so prevalent today. So as I worked through this with my friend, uh, Lord grabbed my heart for the broken heart of, uh, of my friend who had made this decision. And we were privileged to be part of founding the first pregnancy resource center in Indiana, excuse me, in Fort Wayne.

So that's, um, I try to be as brief as possible, but I'm an old timer. So it took me a while to tell the entire story,

Why is this so difficult to get pro-life, uh, legislation passed? Um, you would seem to think that the culture today would say, we need to save these children, but why is it so difficult to get past Kathy?

Well, at the federal level, of course, it depends entirely upon who's in control of each chamber and the white house right now. The climate is not such that the party that typically passes pro-life legislation is in power. However, we anticipate that will change, um, at the state level, it varies from state to state. I live in Indiana, of course, and I have been disappointed recently at the lack of courage of the legislators and especially the leadership in the house and Senate to pass meaningful pro-life legislation. However, in states around us, uh, Kentucky, Ohio, and, and other states across the country, there seems to be an increased boldness. So I think, um, in Indiana, the, uh, um, party that is most likely to promote and pass pro-life legislation has, is in the majority, in both chambers. And I think they become a bit complacent. Obviously this is still a hot button issue, and even more so now with some of the, uh, uh, events that may unfold going forward.

But I think they, if they can get elected without touching this issue, they can tell the, the voters that their pro-life, however, when the rubber meets the road and it's time to act on that they're less likely to do so. I had an experience this past session. That's a textbook example of that. If we have time, I'll, I'll flesh that out a little bit more, but I think it depends on the leadership in each state and the boldness of those who we elect as legislators, but may have to push back against the leadership that under which they serve.

Sometimes we can become very angry about, uh, the negative attitude toward pro-life. How do you, how do you talk about turning anger into action? Uh, I, I think that's a, that's an important detail that we need to, to focus on.

Absolutely. Um, I want people to be angry. I want to stir them, uh, stir their hearts and their emotions and, uh, their sensibilities to be angry about the abortion issue, but I also want to, uh, help them channel that anger into action. And I have long said that there is no one that the Lord has created, that doesn't have a gift that can be used in defending the unborn. So whatever that, uh, gifting is for that person, there is a place for, for you to be a part of this fight. And I know that oftentimes, um, we don't know where to turn, but I am more than happy to direct anyone to, uh, a, a place where they can make a difference. And I'd be glad to, if, if anyone wants to contact me, contact me at Kathy C a T H I E at repro protection, R E P R O T E C T I O n.org. And I will be glad to plug you in to a place where you can make a difference wherever you are across the country. Uh, uh, I think there's nothing, any worse than thinking. I'm just one person and I can't do anything. Well, a lot of it is just a matter of getting up, dressing up and showing up if you're available and you're willing, and you ask the Lord, there will be an assignment for you where you can make a difference.

Sometimes whether you're living in the state of Indiana or living in the state of Texas or wherever you're living. Uh, there are people who get elected to positions in the house of representatives or in the, the Senate on the basis of their pro-life, uh, thinking. But when they get into the elected office, their mentality on this changes. Tell me about that and what, what happens to those folks?

Well, I think a lot of it has to do with, um, fighting hard to get elected and then getting into that, uh, uh, body of government and trying to find out how it all works and where you fit and newly elected legislators, maybe a little less likely to speak out. Um, especially when there is an attempt being made to not address these issues, but we bear responsibility too. We obviously need to know who's running for every office and vote for the pro-life candidate and then support them during the election process as well. And then when they get elected, we need to reach out to them and remind them of the promises and the position that they took before and encourage them. Oftentimes they, once they're elected, they feel like everybody has gone on to other things, but that can be the time that we are most needed to encourage them and to, to, uh, uh, they have a lot of issues that they're dealing with, but we can be their pro-life resource and encourage, or, and of course we must pray for our elected officials, uh, especially those who we've supported and we know, and we know need boldness and courage.

I'm sure you've run into the person that I'm gonna be describing to you. And I'm gonna ask you how you would deal with this. Let's say this person is, um, is a member of the church that you belong to, you know, them elected

Official.

Yes. Uh, no, no, just a, just a person that, uh, is not elected a fellow congregation. I think it'd be elected, but let's just say that they're not elected and in a discussion in a Papa class one day, um, Kathy understands that this lady friend of hers is pro-abortion and she's belonging to your church. Uh, how do you, how do you deal with that? And, um, what are the, what are the steps that you would take to deal with that Kathy?

Well, in the first, uh, in the very first place, I wouldn't call her out publicly and I wouldn't engage in this, uh, conversation publicly. Uh, if it's brought up in a Bible class, uh, listen, but then if you can approach or when you can approach the individual privately, uh, say something like I was really interested in the comments that you made in Bible class, would you be willing to have a cup of coffee with me and help me understand more where you're coming from? And then as you engage in that conversation, allowing them without being threatened or feeling, um, intimidated to share why they are, uh, they support abortion and then listen very carefully. And there are, uh, questions that you can ask, oh, well, that's interesting. Tell me why you came to that conclusion. Um, it's, it's really not that hard. We just need to remember not to be angry, but to be gracious.

And there are several organizations that offer UN uh, online training as to how to have these conversations. Um, um, Scott clues, Endor, uh, organization, uh, is one that comes to mind. Uh they're they're uh, and, uh, uh, pastor Mike Spencer, uh, they all provide training and I will get you the links to their websites, so that if anyone is interested, they can go on the website and learn how to have these gracious, but persuasive arguments, or maybe not even arguments, but discussions. And it's amazing how that approach is much more likely to turn the person's, um, um, position, uh, to one that is pro-life once we're able to get them to under or to listen, but we need to that right, to share the information that we have. Scott Senor told me one time, if the person that you're talking with gets angry, you've lost, doesn't make any difference how right your points are or any, anything like that. If your goal is to walk away with someone who, um, at least reconsiders their position, making them angry is not gonna help

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Let me get a little closer to home and that's okay. Um, with pastors, do we, do we hide behind, um, whatever legislation is happening within the community or ought? We be more bold in talking about pro-life from the pulpit and in Bible class studies. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, uh, I will answer that question with, um, conversations that I've had, and they've been more than one with women who are, um, attending church. And, um, they don't hear anything about abortion because these, the women that I've spoken with have perhaps made an abortion decision. And afterwards they tell me, well, this must be the unforgivable sin because my pastor has never talked about it. So they talk about every other thing, you know, from, uh, greed to, uh, uh, whatever, whatever the issue might be. Um, however they never say anything about the life issue. So therefore my, the sin that I committed must be the unforgivable sin. So if they're having those thoughts after, why would they think before that, uh, the church, uh, has a better choice for them, if they've never heard anything about it from the pulp put from the Bible class or in a newsletter, or even as simple as the pastor praying every week for women who are facing challenging pregnancies and perhaps even have an abortion scheduled that week, that the Lord would touch their hearts and help them make a better decision and then make it public.

Um, I'm not, not focused on any one person, but just make it known in the church that if there is a, a woman who is in a difficult situation to please come to an identified person, be a pastor or pastor's wife or whatever, and let us come alongside you and help you make a decision that you won't help you consider your decision before you decide, uh, something that's go, you're gonna regret for the rest of your life. So, um, I think there's been a Stony silence from the church and that has communicated nonverbally a lot to people about the church's acceptance. So, um, and, and I've heard pastors say that, um, well I know people in my church that have had abortions and I don't wanna say anything about it because I don't wanna make 'em feel bad. Well, I understand that, but what we're doing when we don't address abortion as a sin and also communicate the message of grace and forgiveness at the same time, um, uh, we are denying the woman, an uh, the mother, uh, an opportunity to repent her sin and be forgiven and be restored, uh, as for any other sin that we've committed.

So if we're just gonna gloss it over, I think we're doing a disservice to the women that need to hear, uh, the message of forgiveness. But if there, if we're not discussing it, not only are they not hearing the message of forgiveness, but they're, they have no idea where their church stands.

Okay, well, uh, as I was, um, involved as the executive director of right to life of Northeast Indiana here in Fort Wayne, my office was right next door to the abortion provider. And I would look out my window every Thursday morning, which was procedure day in Fort Wayne. And I would see women going into the abortion facility and a couple of hours later stumbling out with an arm thrown around the friend that brought them at an arm thrown around at an abortion, uh, facility staff member. Stumbl down the steps, literally be dragged across the parking lot to the car and collapse in the back seat of her car. And I'm thinking to myself, how come the abortionist doesn't have to have a wheelchair ramp? It, it seems that everybody else has to. So from my investigation in, into, uh, been research into the wheelchair ramp issue, we ultimately came to a point where we found, um, many violations that the abortionist was committing. We filed many complaints, and eventually we, we were able to shut him down. So from that, um, uh, experience, I was approached about taking the same strategy, um, across the, the country. And so we founded protection was just smooshing together, re uh, reproduction and protection to make a new word re protection. Um, and now we're going from, uh, one state to another helping those people do the same thing we did here in Indiana when we closed down three abortion facilities,

Kathy, when you are in the position that you're in, it's by grace. And, um, I'm thanking God for just you being willing to talk about this, this thing I wanna ask you, when you peek around the corner and see the future of what you have done and what the pro-life movement is doing, what are your thoughts?

Well, it's gonna be a new world. I think in pro in the pro-life fight. Um, after the Supreme court decision comes down this summer, depending on what their decision is and how wide sweeping it is, it could return the abortion decision back to every state. So there are some states of course, that are gonna be firmly entre in, in the abortion business and, and protect that in their state. And there are gonna be others that prohibit abortion and, and perhaps outright ban abortions in their states. So the fight is gonna go back to the states, but the overarching, uh, thing that we must be aware of is we have to have services and help for women who are in crisis pregnancies, and perhaps would've chosen an abortion, but that door may be close to them now. So how could we help them, uh, in their situation that they're in and in the states that are most likely, and some have already done.

So to protect, uh, abortion in their state, there are other ways that we can continue the fight. There may be states, and many of them are, uh, they don't give a fig about abortion or regulating abortions, but they're regulation crazy. And they, we found that the abortionists are violating many of those other regulations, be it related to, um, environmental protection, uh, laws and, and regulations, or, you know, some things as simple as how many parking spaces, uh, does their zoning require for them to have in their parking lot. And are they, uh, complying? So the whole idea is not to necessarily bring these abortion facilities up to standard, and then we're okay with it. But it's, uh, kind of like, uh, death by a thousand paper cuts. So if we can continue to get them fined and increase their, their, the, their cost of operating, because they have to comply with all these regulations, the number of abortions will drop. And there are many CD abortion businesses that we've seen already when we hold them accountable, just mirrored, close their doors,

Kathy. Humer I wanna say thank you for being on tonight. We've already concluded our time. So all I can do you go so fast. All I can say to you is thank you and make God continue to bless you for what you are doing, what you have done and made the grace of God, continue to give you strength to pursue pro-life in Indiana. Thank you for joining us this evening on engaging truth. Come back to us again next Sunday night. Thank you. And goodnight.

Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at this time, to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office box 5 68, Cypress Texas 7 7 4 1 0. Or visit our website@elmhouston.org, or find us on Facebook at evangelical life ministries. Thank you.