Transcripts
In this episode of Live With The
Pricing Lady, I talk with Anna Lundberg.
2
:She's a coach and business mentor
and founder of One Step Outside.
3
:She'll share with us her Pricing
journey, for example, why Pricing
4
:clarity starts with defining
what success really looks like.
5
:So sit back, relax, and enjoy the episode.
6
:Janene: Welcome to Live with The
Pricing Lady, I'm Janene, your hostess,
7
:where we turn Pricing confusion into
clarity so you can grow and build
8
:your business with more confidence.
9
:Welcome, and today I'm super excited to
have as a special guest, Anna Lundberg.
10
:Hello, Anna.
11
:Welcome.
12
:Hi Janene.
13
:Thanks so much for having me.
14
:Yes, I'm super excited.
15
:I wanted to share, before we get into
the questions, I wanna share a few
16
:things that you had said about Pricing
over the years, and there are a few
17
:things that you learned along the way
We're gonna be talking about, which
18
:is why Pricing clarity starts with
defining what success looks like.
19
:Also why competitors may not
matter as much as you think.
20
:I'm looking forward to digging into these
and some other topics with you today.
21
:Anna: Great.
22
:Me too.
23
:I love a Pricing conversation.
24
:It's quite a prickly one.
25
:Obviously you've chosen a challenging one.
26
:It's a bit of an emotional one,
but also an important one, so,
27
:looking forward to getting stuck in.
28
:All
29
:Janene: right.
30
:Let's get to know you first.
31
:Where are you calling
32
:Anna: from today?
33
:I am in pool, in d it, it's
on the south coast of England.
34
:I can see the ocean just out there.
35
:Well, ocean, whatever it's
called, the English Channel.
36
:A big boat there.
37
:Yeah.
38
:Nice.
39
:Two hours from London.
40
:It's, it's a very nice place.
41
:Don't tell anyone to see.
42
:Janene: And
43
:Anna: is
44
:Janene: that where you
were originally from
45
:Anna: or?
46
:No, so originally, originally I'm from.
47
:Sweden.
48
:So my parents are both Swedish
but I grew up outside of London,
49
:so I have been here all my life.
50
:But then I was in Switzerland for
10 years and then did the digital
51
:nomad thing for a few years.
52
:Unfortunately, as I say, sometimes
met my partner who was in London and
53
:then we've settled out here by the sea
for now, at least with our children.
54
:Janene: Well, I can think of a lot worse
places to be, so definitely lovely.
55
:Excellent.
56
:Anna, what would you
describe as your superpower?
57
:I.
58
:Anna: Oh, it's always
a tough one, isn't it?
59
:To, to identify your own strengths.
60
:I always hated that in my corporate
per performance reviews, so
61
:thanks for putting me on the spot.
62
:I like to think that I give people
permission to articulate what they
63
:really want, because I think there's so
much, and so many particularly business
64
:coaches are like, you've gotta do this.
65
:It's the webinar, or you've got to
do a high ticket or group program,
66
:or not group program, et cetera.
67
:And I'd like to think that I'm
quite rare in going, no, you don't.
68
:But the important thing is you
need to figure out, as you just
69
:said there with the Pricing, what
does success look like for you?
70
:And then, yes, we can choose the
right path and, and they're experts
71
:who can show you a particular
strategy, but it's so important to
72
:first figure out what, what you want.
73
:And I think most people kind of know
that, but they don't dare to express it
74
:to themselves, let alone someone else.
75
:So I give them that space to admit their
secret desires, and then of course,
76
:find a way to, to make it happen.
77
:Janene: That's so important that
people understand one, that they can
78
:do really within, you know, ethics
and morals and things, whatever
79
:they want, to some degree, right?
80
:Important.
81
:Can't be at them.
82
:It's gotta be legal.
83
:It's gotta be legal.
84
:Exactly.
85
:But you know that, that really, there
isn't a one size fits all answer.
86
:And yes, you're right that a lot
of times that's the perception
87
:that we're given for sure.
88
:Next question, what's one
interesting thing that most people
89
:don't know about you that you'd
like to share with us today?
90
:Non-business related?
91
:I guess
92
:Anna: it's up to you.
93
:Well, I, I've started sharing this a bit
more often, so maybe you do know this
94
:if you've heard me, but I'm descended
from a witch who was burned at the stake
95
:in in I want to say 16 hundreds Sweden.
96
:So my mom is very interested in
ancestor research, and we've gone back
97
:and sadly, I guess she must have had.
98
:Children, because otherwise I
wouldn't be here before she was burnt.
99
:But yeah, I sort of, yeah, I mean,
let's not go down that rabbit hole, but
100
:it's an interesting story and I feel
like I've got the powerful women in
101
:my blood, so I channel that ancestry.
102
:Well,
103
:Janene: Both of my parents got into
ancestry and my dad wrote us all, this
104
:was quite a few years ago, he about, a
long lost relative who was repeatedly
105
:in the stockades for fornicating.
106
:Also
107
:Anna: a great claim to
108
:Janene: fame.
109
:There are worse crimes,
110
:so yes, a can can reveal some
really interesting things.
111
:Alright, why don't you share with
us a bit about your business and
112
:how you got started doing this?
113
:I.
114
:Anna: Yeah, sure.
115
:So, I mean, without boring you with
all the, the details of the full story,
116
:because of course there are so many twists
and turns, but I'm, I want to say I'm the
117
:least entrepreneurial person you can meet,
which, which I think is not true anymore,
118
:but at least it was never on my radar.
119
:So I'm sort of an accidental entrepreneur.
120
:Maybe a lot of us are, I
didn't sort of dream of.
121
:Being a business owner.
122
:When I was younger it was very much,
you know, my parents were quite
123
:academic and traditional career
path and whatever that is really.
124
:But I, you know, I, I did as I
was told, and I did school in
125
:university and got a good job.
126
:So I was in brand building and marketing
at Proctor Gamble, big American company.
127
:Amazing.
128
:School to learn branding and, and
marketing and to be honest, opened
129
:all the doors to what happened later.
130
:Mm-hmm.
131
:But there was always
a bit of a disconnect.
132
:Again, I hadn't really
dreamed of that path.
133
:It, it was just kind of
an accidental career path.
134
:I think that's the case
for a lot of us, perhaps.
135
:Mm-hmm.
136
:I studied one thing, ended up
there, so I left there in:
137
:really knowing what I was doing.
138
:I kind of landed in consulting
because at the time.
139
:My digital marketing skills
were very much in demand.
140
:So that's how I began.
141
:But then I discovered coaching for selfish
reasons, for my own personal development.
142
:And over time I kind of found a
way to weave those things together.
143
:So I, I dreamed of what I call
freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.
144
:But of course, at the time, but I say
of course, I was young and carefree.
145
:So at the time it was traveling
the world and staying Airbnbs.
146
:Mm-hmm.
147
:And I did my coach training in Hawaii
and learned to play the ukulele.
148
:And that was what that looked like then.
149
:Now it looks a bit different, as I said,
with two young children and, and living
150
:by the sea, but of course, mm-hmm.
151
:That freedom, flexibility,
and fulfillment, I think
152
:has still been a red thread.
153
:So, in a nutshell, to answer your
question, I now help people do that.
154
:That same, I'd say, transition.
155
:It used to be actually helping people
with that initial step, but now it's more
156
:people who are a few years down the line,
but not quite realizing that potential.
157
:I suppose that we've, I always
thought that, you know, you say,
158
:I quit and then ta-da, your.
159
:Best, most fulfilled life.
160
:And it turns out that's not the case.
161
:It's actually the bit that comes next.
162
:That's the hardest bit.
163
:And I think it's harder
to break the patterns.
164
:Once you're there.
165
:You bring with you your old habits from
corporate, you become your own worst boss.
166
:Mm-hmm.
167
:And you are working way too hard for way
too little reward, and I don't like that.
168
:So my mission now is to
really help experts who are
169
:incredibly good at what they do.
170
:They've got the experience, they've
got the, you know, authority really.
171
:Right.
172
:But for whatever reason.
173
:They've just gotten locked into
a business model that isn't
174
:quite delivering on the promise.
175
:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
176
:When they started.
177
:So it's kind of recalibrating, right?
178
:You know, I'm running a session this
week that's, that's work less earn and
179
:more, which feels like a ooh, really
uncomfortably oversimplified message,
180
:but that's what it's about, right?
181
:It's earning more money without
burning out, without, you know,
182
:compromising your health, your
family relationships, and so on.
183
:So, of course, Pricing that you focus
on is a really important part of that,
184
:because otherwise it's not going to
deliver on your, your income targets.
185
:Janene: Right, right.
186
:Now, one of the things that
you had mentioned when we spoke
187
:before was this let's say this.
188
:Mindset of mutual exclusivity that
you can either be fulfilled or
189
:earning money, but you can't do both.
190
:And I find that a, an interesting
segue into talking about Pricing.
191
:Can you tell us more about your
experience or your thoughts on that?
192
:Anna: Yeah.
193
:I think that we are so often trapped
in that really black and white extreme
194
:zero sum game that either we're the
struggling freelancer over here.
195
:The creative is often the
picture we have, right?
196
:We won't earn money
doing something artistic.
197
:There's all those stories we've been told.
198
:Mm-hmm.
199
:I wanted to be a writer and I was told
you'll never make money being a writer.
200
:And then there's the other
side, which is the sort of I.
201
:Obviously, I don't want to be insulting
to people, but the very successful
202
:business person you know, who is very
sort of hardnosed and earning lots of
203
:money, but selling their soul because
they're working in, let's say a bank
204
:or consulting or something like that.
205
:Even now with entrepreneurship,
there are versions of that.
206
:There's still the hustling
startup founder, oh, I work.
207
:3000 hour weeks, but I
love it kind of messaging.
208
:Janene: Right?
209
:Anna: And probably not earning so
much money or earning, I don't know.
210
:There's, there's sort of both
versions and then again, there's.
211
:There's a quite a belittling view of
like, oh, it's a lifestyle business.
212
:Or often, often coaches, often
women, I just want to help people.
213
:I don't need to earn so much money.
214
:Yeah.
215
:And then we end up in this kind
of hobby charity mode where it's,
216
:you know, and it's sort of self.
217
:So I just, I like to question some
of those boxes we put ourselves in.
218
:And, and I really rail against this
like, you know, extraordinary success
219
:requires extraordinary effort and.
220
:Success requires sacrifice in all this.
221
:I think on whose terms?
222
:It's like we, right.
223
:We can decide on a version of success that
actually involves being with our children.
224
:You know, I just volunteered
at my daughter's school trip
225
:to a farm the other day.
226
:Mm-hmm.
227
:And also I'm ambitious and I want to
do talks and, and earn money and go on
228
:holidays and things, you know, and those
two are not mutually exclusive, so I
229
:think we just need to let go of those.
230
:Both outta date and also not very
helpful labels and boxes and extremes,
231
:and just find the nuances between
and make it possible to hold both.
232
:Janene: I had my own version of that and
I'm sure I'll discover more along the
233
:way, but mine was, I, because I left the
corporate world in part due to a burnout
234
:and mine was, I can either be healthy
or successful, but I can't be both,
235
:which is rubbish of the highest order.
236
:Anna: Glad you said it, not me.
237
:Janene: That's the sort of the
Yeah, the thought process that
238
:was going on in my own head.
239
:Mm-hmm.
240
:It's important that you, that we
bring that up and that we help people
241
:to recognize that those ways of
thinking don't help us very much.
242
:Mm-hmm.
243
:Exactly.
244
:Yeah.
245
:Yeah.
246
:So, Anna, what was it like for you
the first time you had to set a
247
:price for something in your business?
248
:Anna: It's a good question.
249
:I was thinking back to this and it's
hard, hard to remember, to be honest.
250
:The consulting, I have no idea how
I came up with a rate, to be honest.
251
:I must have Googled it or something.
252
:There was no AI at the time, so my
goodness, that would've been easier.
253
:So I actually have no idea
with the initial consulting.
254
:Mm-hmm.
255
:I know that my first contract well
I did some little entrepreneurship,
256
:entrepreneur mentoring kind of stuff,
and then I did with a big company
257
:where I was actually paid sort of.
258
:All the hours I worked and there
was a lot of overtime and travel,
259
:so that was very lucrative.
260
:And then another one where they
explicitly said I was only paid
261
:for like the nine to five hours.
262
:So then I, I literally
left the office at five.
263
:I was like, okay, okay, fine.
264
:So I think that was really good, but also.
265
:I, I landed on my feet a
bit too easily because Okay.
266
:That was very lucrative and I earned
more money than I was in my job.
267
:Whereas then came when I
went into coaching mm-hmm.
268
:That's when it became really difficult
because it was, I'm sure you know this
269
:from your, all the work that you do as
coaches, we tend to go, oh, it's this much
270
:for an hour or this many hours, and that's
how we start with the hourly Pricing and,
271
:and our coach training doesn't tell us.
272
:How to run a business.
273
:It just teaches us to be a great coach.
274
:We come out thinking, Hey, I'm a coach.
275
:Everybody paid me.
276
:And it doesn't quite happen that way.
277
:So I think that was a tricky moment
when I, yes, a couple of very
278
:generous clients worked with me.
279
:Mm-hmm.
280
:Even though I was inexperienced and I
put whatever price I did at the time.
281
:But I mean, yeah, it was a bit
of a rude awakening to realize.
282
:Both, not to undercharge, but then
also not there were all, it was
283
:all the messaging at the time I
remember on Facebook, like mm-hmm.
284
:Oh, put your number
down and then triple it.
285
:And then, you know, there were people
who were charging like 50 K and
286
:I was like, I'm just a new coach.
287
:I do, you know, so there's, there's the,
again, there's the two extremes actually.
288
:There's the, oh, do it all for free.
289
:You're helping people $50
an hour kind of thing.
290
:And then there's a.
291
:Oh, you should be charging VP,
high ticket, blah, blah, blah.
292
:You know?
293
:And it's just this, depending
on who you're with, I suppose.
294
:Like with my sister who works in heritage,
we call it like museums and things.
295
:She's always like, and maybe it's
limiting beliefs as we say in
296
:coaching, but she says, you know, you
just can't charge those big numbers.
297
:And she, she would be appalled if
she heard some of the numbers I said.
298
:Mm-hmm.
299
:But then in other circles,
300
:Janene: right,
301
:Anna: people are like,
of course you charged.
302
:Yeah, that's a half million.
303
:Contract, whatever, and that's, you
know, so it's just, I guess that
304
:suggests to you that it's important
to move in the right circles because
305
:you will, there's no right price.
306
:Right?
307
:It's just finding the
people and the value.
308
:And what feels good to you and yeah,
309
:Janene: what feels good to you and
what's appropriate for what you offer
310
:and who you're targeting it with.
311
:I think that's one of the things
that I see with a lot of people is
312
:they are trying, they're casting a
wide net, trying to catch anyone.
313
:Yeah.
314
:And in the process they're, what they're
offering and how they're positioning it.
315
:It really doesn't, it's like
a one size fits all t-shirt.
316
:You know, it's, it's okay if we're
sleeping in, but you wouldn't
317
:really wear it for much else.
318
:Anna: I think we also get caught,
caught in the middle ground because we
319
:kind of get, oh, I should charge more,
but then we're not quite confident
320
:enough, so we go in the middle.
321
:And so it's too cheap for the people
who wanna pay more and they don't think
322
:you're good enough, but it's also too
much for the people to be a no-brainer.
323
:So you're stuck in that kind of, nobody
can kind of, or wants pay that amount.
324
:So yeah, I think you either
need to go sort of lower and.
325
:You know, bigger quantity or
you go higher, but then you
326
:only need a handful of clients.
327
:I think again, in between actually that's
one of the cases where maybe the extremes
328
:is more useful than the the middle ground.
329
:Janene: Yeah.
330
:Yeah, yeah.
331
:You're right about that.
332
:Many entrepreneurs, they struggle
with this whole topic of Pricing.
333
:And it can be, they're,
they're very new to it.
334
:They're years into their business
and they're still struggling.
335
:How do you help the people that you
work with, their Pricing journey?
336
:What is it that you really focus on that
you think helps them get on a path that
337
:brings them towards where they wanna go?
338
:Anna: So I guess, I think
there's two parts to it.
339
:One is I.
340
:The strategy and then
the other is the mindset.
341
:Mm-hmm.
342
:Because obviously we've got all
the imposter syndrome and mm-hmm.
343
:Could I possibly charge that much?
344
:And what, you know, oh, they've
got much more experience than me.
345
:So that's one piece
that we need to work on.
346
:Mm-hmm.
347
:You know, we have like a little
confidence jar or confidence folder
348
:where you keep all your right.
349
:The external validation you get, but
every testimony, every positive thing,
350
:like all the certificate, you remind
yourself of how amazing you are.
351
:Mm-hmm.
352
:When you get a bit of a wobble and those
kinds of things I think are important.
353
:From a strategy perspective, you
know, you mentioned there again,
354
:the definition of success from a big
picture perspective, what do you want?
355
:So again, the people I work with
often, they say, you know, I
356
:don't wanna be a thought leader.
357
:I just want to be a
respected expert in my field.
358
:So I say.
359
:And maybe this will change,
but for now, I don't need to be
360
:a Brene Brown or a Simon sin.
361
:It's hugely complex and it's a
very different kind of stage.
362
:Right.
363
:I want to be known in my space mm-hmm.
364
:Big enough to charge enough
and enjoy my work and dah dah.
365
:Mm-hmm.
366
:And so that's, you know, defining
the, the big picture of what do you
367
:want your business to look like?
368
:I wanna work term time to take, sorry.
369
:In, in England it's called
terms rather than semesters.
370
:So, you know, to have the holidays off
with the kids, those types of things.
371
:And this is how much I want to earn.
372
:Mm-hmm.
373
:With Pricing.
374
:I've always really started with, you know,
you mentioned there, I said, okay, let's
375
:not pay too much attention to competitors.
376
:Because really it starts with you
and I, you know, I think I chatted
377
:with you about this the other day
that let's say I want to earn a
378
:hundred KA year, whatever currency.
379
:Mm-hmm.
380
:I'm working 200 days a year.
381
:Half of those are business
development, admin, accounting.
382
:So I've got a hundred days a year.
383
:That means that my so-called
day rate has to be a thousand.
384
:Right.
385
:And I call that my sort of integrity rate.
386
:That's what I wanna be earning
to really hit my goals.
387
:This is, and I'm making that number up,
but it's just an easy math number for me.
388
:Mm-hmm.
389
:I do that all the time.
390
:Yeah.
391
:At some point I should do a number that's
harder and I pretend that I can do the
392
:maths in my head, but the gone are those
days when I can do mental arithmetic.
393
:My teacher would be yeah.
394
:Crying wherever he is today.
395
:But you, you work out that that's
the race I need to have to feel like,
396
:yeah, this is, you know, I'm valued.
397
:I'm, I'm hitting my goals, you know,
sometimes a bit under, sometimes it's
398
:over, but on average, kind of, you're
going to be not just breaking even, you're
399
:also going on holidays with your family.
400
:You've got the gym, you've
got the whatever else.
401
:Now, there's also your resentment
rate, which is if you go below that.
402
:First of all, it might even be that, you
know, you're not even gonna be able to pay
403
:your bills and live, so that's a no go.
404
:But there's a race of which you, you know,
you're just gonna feel like, oh, I can't
405
:believe Janene is making me do this work
and I don't wanna show up to this call.
406
:You know, that sort of,
you don't wanna go there.
407
:So I think, let's say a thousand pounds
is the day then, I don't know, 500, 300,
408
:you can get to decide where that is.
409
:And if you're a beginner,
it might be a lower number.
410
:Right?
411
:So when you're kind of proactively
quoting things and Pricing things, mm-hmm.
412
:You need to make sure you're at or above.
413
:That 1000 mark
414
:Janene: mm-hmm.
415
:Anna: For your core things.
416
:Mm-hmm.
417
:But that's not to say that behind closed
doors, if, if Janene goes, Hey, can you do
418
:this thing for me next week at 600 pounds?
419
:I'll be like, yes, sure.
420
:Because it's above my resentment rate.
421
:Right, right.
422
:So I think for me, it start, it's
not to say that I get to decide the
423
:Pricing and it has nothing to do
with the rest of the world, but if
424
:it's a business that works for you.
425
:Then it needs to work for you.
426
:So then of course, the question
is, okay, who are the clients who
427
:can and are willing to pay that?
428
:Mm-hmm.
429
:What is the value I can
put into this offer?
430
:What result can I help them get?
431
:But you have to know those numbers.
432
:You have to know what your
integrity rate is and your
433
:resentment rate, because otherwise.
434
:What if, if you say to me, or if
a client comes to me and says,
435
:oh, what's the right price?
436
:Who knows?
437
:There's no right price.
438
:You tell me like, what are your expenses?
439
:What's your desired lifestyle?
440
:What are your, you know, how
many hours do you want to work?
441
:There's so many factors to that.
442
:So that's, that's where like looking
at someone else's website mm-hmm.
443
:We can get all caught up and oh my
gosh, Janene charges this much, and,
444
:but she's so much more experienced.
445
:But who knows?
446
:Behind closed doors you have zero clients
and nobody knows because you know, one.
447
:You only see what they
share on social media.
448
:You only see, and even if
they have clients, maybe
449
:they have a really lean team.
450
:They've only got a cat at home.
451
:They don't have the eight children
and the five in private school and
452
:the Tesla and whatever else you have.
453
:So your expenses are slightly higher.
454
:So it's so personal.
455
:So of course there are, and I know you
share it, so much wisdom around, you
456
:know how you can price, but ultimately
it's very individual to the nature of
457
:success and the nature of your business
model and your family as so, yeah.
458
:Janene: One of the things I find
with a lot of women when they look
459
:at their price setting is they try to
be fair to everybody else, but they
460
:forget themselves in the process.
461
:And so, you know, by having, by
starting with, okay, where do you
462
:want to get to with your own business?
463
:Then you, you kind of put yourself in
the forefront of, that thought process.
464
:That you can be more fair to
yourself while you're being
465
:fair to everybody else as well.
466
:Mm-hmm.
467
:Anna: And by the way, it's really hard.
468
:I mean, I literally, a couple of
minutes before I came on here, got an
469
:email from someone who had been talking
about joining my accelerator program.
470
:She said, I'm really sorry.
471
:I'm not earning any money.
472
:I just can't spend that money right now.
473
:And it's so hard.
474
:Yeah.
475
:Because I know that she would
get results if she only joined.
476
:And of course, actually I've been
in that situation so many times.
477
:Sometimes I have overpaid for
a program and regretted it.
478
:Mm-hmm.
479
:I mean, you also learn something always.
480
:Yeah.
481
:But always I've been okay if I'm
paying:
482
:What do I need to make that possible?
483
:Well, I need to make sure I get
one coaching client or like two
484
:workshops or whatever that is.
485
:And you have to make it happen.
486
:Exactly.
487
:But, but I could in that
situation, oh my gosh, no worries.
488
:I'll, I'll charge you half price
or I'll give it to you for free.
489
:And that unfortunately isn't fair to
everyone else who's paid full price.
490
:It's not fair to her because it means
she's not then fully invested in it.
491
:You know, so there are some really
difficult things when you just know
492
:something's gonna help someone.
493
:Janene: Right.
494
:But
495
:Anna: unfortunately, you don't, you
know, they, they have to choose and
496
:they have to feel right for them.
497
:Janene: Yeah.
498
:I think it's also a readiness factor.
499
:Anna: Yeah.
500
:Janene: And there's a time and
place for whatever resources,
501
:you know, someone needs.
502
:There's a, and there's
503
:Anna: so many free resources for me too.
504
:I've got podcasts.
505
:I'm running a free session I can
send her to go to, like, it's
506
:not like I just have to say, and
507
:Janene: even nowadays, it's, I mean,
you can gather free resources is
508
:a lot easier than you used to be.
509
:You can definitely,
510
:Anna: I mean, all the information is
there and that's also why I work more
511
:with people in terms of accountability
and implementation and a sounding board,
512
:because yes, you can get any information.
513
:Now, my whole book is probably online.
514
:You know, you could get it
for nine to nine p or free.
515
:I don't know.
516
:You.
517
:I've got six years of podcast
episodes you could listen to.
518
:There's a lot of, if you just applied
everything I've ever said, I'm sure you'd
519
:be richer than I'm for sure, but, you
520
:Janene: know.
521
:Now it does, you know, you don't have
to go through each and every episode
522
:all on your own and trying to figure
out what's this and what's bad.
523
:I mean, there's, yeah, it still requires
time and effort, don't get me wrong.
524
:And you still have to understand
how to apply those things.
525
:'cause it's not always, you know,
what seems to you or I obvious isn't
526
:always obvious to everyone else.
527
:Mm-hmm.
528
:Anna: No.
529
:And it's also, it's easy for me to
say this about someone else's that as
530
:soon as it's my own, it's much harder.
531
:Right.
532
:Because you just, you're so deep
in the nuances of it and your own
533
:personal emotions and things, so
it's easier to help someone else
534
:than it is to help yourself always.
535
:Janene: Absolutely.
536
:I recently, I've made a few posts
about Pricing in ai and you know, one
537
:thing that I'm very clear about is that
yes, there's a, a place for using AI
538
:to support your Pricing strategy, but
there are some very specific things
539
:that it can't really account for.
540
:Like your readiness to charge that much,
or how strongly you believe in that price
541
:that it's saying you should charge, right?
542
:Yes.
543
:So it's, you know, it's all, it's about
putting all that information into context
544
:so that you can make the best decisions
possible for where you are currently.
545
:I think that's also a big point.
546
:Anna: Yeah, I've done that with chat.
547
:Bt I've exam said, what would
it take to get to this number?
548
:And it all sounds very doable, but
I'm like, I don't really believe
549
:that I can get there right now.
550
:So definitely it's, it's easy enough
to, oh, you just charged them this much.
551
:I'm like, okay, chat.
552
:Bt satisfied.
553
:It's not quite working like that,
but it's still, it's useful exercise
554
:to do because it makes you realize,
yeah, I'm not gonna get there with my.
555
:$50 an hour coaching sessions or my 500
pound VIP days or whatever, like you can
556
:tell that it's not gonna add up to where
you want to be, which is useful maths.
557
:If the math isn't math, then
you need to rethink the model.
558
:Janene: Yeah.
559
:Yeah.
560
:I, that's, I think we've both seen that.
561
:I mean, with some clients you're like,
you go right in and you're like, okay.
562
:They don't yet see like finance
or the finances in their
563
:business, let's start there.
564
:And with someone else, it might be,
they don't really see how it's possible
565
:for anybody to charge this much.
566
:So you might start with
that element of it first.
567
:And so I always find it interesting
'cause it's so varied by the client.
568
:Hmm.
569
:Okay.
570
:Let's see.
571
:I am just looking at my notes here and.
572
:If there were like, some feedback
or advice that you'd like to give
573
:people when it comes to their own
challenges with Pricing what would
574
:you, what would you share with them?
575
:Anna: I think I said there is no
right answer, which is frustrating,
576
:but hopefully reassuring in that as
much as you know, you or I can help
577
:to guide through and we can probably
land at maybe a better number.
578
:Mm-hmm.
579
:We won't know until we put
it out there and actually ask
580
:people to, to buy the thing.
581
:And you know, when we worked,
when I worked in the big
582
:company, we would have that too.
583
:That we would do Pricing
research and focus groups.
584
:But it's one thing to say,
yeah, sure, I'll pay that.
585
:And your friends and family
go, oh, that sounds amazing.
586
:No problem.
587
:But it's another, when you put up,
you know Daniel Priestly at the
588
:moment is really big here in the uk.
589
:Mm-hmm.
590
:And he always talks about a waiting list.
591
:He's got software and stuff
to, to support you doing that.
592
:Fine.
593
:I mean, it's, it's a mm-hmm.
594
:Process that's been around for a long
time, but it's super smart because
595
:you put up a page, you go, Hey,
I'm thinking of doing this thing.
596
:Are you interested?
597
:Would you pay?
598
:You know, and then actually he even
says, put a question like, would
599
:you pay this, that, and the other?
600
:And his story goes, when he launched
his latest book AI software.
601
:Mm-hmm.
602
:That actually they were thinking
of charging much lower number
603
:because so many people said
they expected to pay much more.
604
:They went for a higher fee.
605
:So great.
606
:Right.
607
:That's a really tangible thing.
608
:People are giving their email
address saying, I actually want to
609
:do this thing, or, or even, yeah.
610
:Running a free event, running a
workshop for 30 bucks and just
611
:seeing if they'll join that.
612
:Mm-hmm.
613
:It's you, you've gotta put it out there
and then recalibrate obviously, if, right.
614
:And, and the problem I suppose,
is that if, if nobody signs up,
615
:you might say, oh, it's the price.
616
:But it could be the messaging or it
could be, you know, so that's the
617
:hard to know, tricky part of it.
618
:But just to say that we're all kind of,
to some extent fumbling in the dark.
619
:There's no right answer.
620
:But, but you know what works for you.
621
:Mm-hmm.
622
:In terms of, in order to make a
living, I need to be earning this much.
623
:So therefore you need to
make those numbers work.
624
:So whether you need to then add more
value to it or target it to a different,
625
:more affluent client or have more
clients, you know, those are the.
626
:Yeah, recalibrations we can make, but
we need to start somewhere to that.
627
:And if you, if you talk to 50 people
and every single one says it's too
628
:expensive, then you know that, you
know, either it is too expensive or
629
:you're talking to the wrong people.
630
:Whereas sometimes I guess we just talk
to two people, we get a bit nervous.
631
:And pull back.
632
:And we don't actually have the data to say
if it's the price, if it's something else.
633
:Right.
634
:Whereas if you hear consistent
messaging across the board.
635
:Or the other thing is if you work with
corporate, some people say, you know,
636
:if they say yes right away mm-hmm.
637
:You know, probably you've gone too low.
638
:So next time you add like 20% to
something, you know, that's just each time
639
:you, it's a bit of a tapestry of moves.
640
:You're not gonna go
from zero to making the.
641
:250 KA year, whatever
it is you want to make.
642
:But each time you're like a little bit
more there and a little bit more there.
643
:And then you're gradually,
you know, getting to place and
644
:sometimes you take a bigger leap.
645
:Maybe if you've maybe got some new
certification or if you feel like, you
646
:know, I've got a lot more experience now,
or you've developed a new framework that's
647
:giving lots of value, you've got lots of
testimonials, then you can feel perhaps
648
:like it warrants a bigger price increase.
649
:Right.
650
:So there is no right answer.
651
:That's my wisdom.
652
:There you go.
653
:Sorry.
654
:There is no right answer.
655
:Janene: Yeah, there's, I
always tell people when they
656
:and repricing question almost.
657
:Everyone, when people ask it, you
can start with by asking first
658
:who, who's your target customer?
659
:Anna: Mm-hmm.
660
:Yeah.
661
:Well, in my gamble days questions,
R-A-C-E-O used to say consumer is boss.
662
:And it was all, it all started with
the consumer and who's the consumer
663
:and what are the insights, what's
the problem you're solving and so on.
664
:So that's deeply ingrained in
my psyche to start with that.
665
:Janene: Exactly.
666
:Okay.
667
:Why don't we start wrapping this up.
668
:I kind of already asked
this question, but.
669
:Maybe you have a different answer now.
670
:What's one takeaway you'd like people
to walk away with our convers walk
671
:away with from our conversation today?
672
:Huh?
673
:Jingle.
674
:Yeah.
675
:Anna: I guess it, it links to us, so
I said there's no right answer, but
676
:then define what success looks like.
677
:And that sounds really lofty,
and it's like, oh, I need a
678
:vision statement or something you
can put on a mark is like, no.
679
:In fact, actually what I came up
with, I, I need to remember that
680
:was in my, book sort of three P.
681
:So one is your practical parameters.
682
:Mm-hmm.
683
:So that's like your criteria, like,
okay, I need to be earning this
684
:much and you know, I need to be only
working these many hours and so on.
685
:Mm-hmm.
686
:You've got your personal preferences,
which is like, oh, I really love working
687
:in groups or with big companies or
startups or individuals, whatever it is.
688
:And then you've got more, your
purpose, which is your Ikigai,
689
:or like the real impact you wanna
be making, the meaning and so on.
690
:So thinking of those
three criteria mm-hmm.
691
:And kind of filtering.
692
:Work through that can
really help you as well.
693
:It doesn't have to be, yes.
694
:Some big thing you've got on a poster
like successes and people have got on a
695
:quote card they'll share on Instagram.
696
:No.
697
:The point is that you need to
know what enough looks like.
698
:Like I need to be earning this.
699
:But beyond actually, you know,
there's probably a range.
700
:Mm-hmm.
701
:And to be honest, I'm in a phase
where I'm a bit like, oh, I'm
702
:curious as to how can I push it more.
703
:I've been a bit.
704
:Limited limiting myself maybe.
705
:Mm-hmm.
706
:And that's interesting.
707
:But doing it for the right
reasons, being intentional about
708
:it and not just thinking, I've
gotta grow, I've gotta scale.
709
:I've got to, you know, more and more,
more forgetting that we probably started
710
:this business, at least in the case of
me and my clients for more time freedom.
711
:Mm-hmm.
712
:Flexibility, fun.
713
:Yes.
714
:Finance is a part of that.
715
:Mm-hmm.
716
:But we mustn't forget
the other Fs as well.
717
:Correct.
718
:So define what success looks
like and then build from there.
719
:I love that.
720
:Janene: Excellent.
721
:Is there a book or a podcast or
something that you're listening
722
:to right now that you're finding.
723
:Compelling that you'd
like to share with us?
724
:Anna: Well, I'm, I mean, it's sort
of unrelated but also very related.
725
:Mm-hmm.
726
:It's well, I finished 4,000 weeks by
Oliver Berkman and his new one, I want to
727
:say is called Meditations for Mortals, and
you're supposed to read one page a day.
728
:So it's taken me a few months
because I read one page a week.
729
:I forget about it, but I come back to it.
730
:But he is really questioning
the whole time management thing.
731
:Basically.
732
:He's saying we, we are.
733
:Mortal life is finite, as we know
life is short, but you're never gonna
734
:get round to reading all the books.
735
:You're never going to be that
perfect person who plays the
736
:piano for 10 minutes every day.
737
:So just go and play the
damn piano right now.
738
:You know?
739
:And I think there's something around that.
740
:I think I.
741
:I've always been so goals oriented
and future oriented, and my focus
742
:now is being present and just,
okay, right now I'm having a really
743
:interesting conversation here.
744
:I'd hate it if my kids
were banging on the door.
745
:'cause then I'd feel like I'm
neither with them nor with you.
746
:Right?
747
:So now I make sure I do these
calls, like when they're not
748
:outside banging on the door.
749
:Likewise, if I'm with them, I'm,
you know, as Father's Day for us
750
:as we record this and I was with.
751
:The family and we were present and
I wasn't like checking Instagram the
752
:whole time, but I think it's just
being present for me is really key.
753
:Mm-hmm.
754
:In that book, 4,000 Weeks
Oliver Berkman, it just, yeah.
755
:Basically 4,000 weeks of your life,
a lot of that is spent sleeping,
756
:eating, et cetera, you know, so when
you realize how precious every moment
757
:is, you may be, make different choices
in terms of how you're spending it.
758
:Janene: I love that.
759
:Excellent.
760
:Okay.
761
:We'll put a link to that in the show.
762
:Next last question, if people would like
to reach out and find out more about how
763
:to work with you, where can we send them?
764
:Anna: Well, I think actually, given
what we've talked about, what could be
765
:interesting is a resource that I have.
766
:Mm-hmm.
767
:So if you go to one step
outside.com/intentional
768
:business, and I know you'll put
it in the show notes as well, but
769
:one step outside.com/intentional
770
:business.
771
:Mm-hmm.
772
:And it's a simple little PDF audit.
773
:Audit sounds like a very serious word,
but it's just checking in on where are
774
:you on your energy, your income, you know,
do you enjoy working with your clients?
775
:And it just lets you
maybe identify some gaps.
776
:You know, it could be, and I spoke
to someone this morning and actually.
777
:Her life is, is sort of perfect
except for the income bit, in which
778
:case, okay, let's look at Pricing
and business one and so on, right?
779
:But then for a lot of people it's
rather, you know, I actually, the
780
:income is good, but I'm not enjoying the
clients I'm working with, for example.
781
:But just know, sometimes you don't
stop, you just know something's
782
:off, but you're not sure what it is.
783
:So I think that really helps you.
784
:And then to, from there, from that base
of understanding, you can then build
785
:intentionally in a direction that's gonna
get you closer to where you want to be.
786
:I hope that's useful.
787
:Janene: Excellent.
788
:Yes.
789
:We'll put that in other links so that you
can connect with Anna in the show notes.
790
:Anna, thank you so much
for joining me today.
791
:It's been a real pleasure having
this conversation with you.
792
:Anna: Thank you.
793
:Such a good conversation.
794
:Such an important topic, and I hope there
was some nuggets in there for people to,
795
:to reflect on and, and take forwards.
796
:Thanks, Janene.
797
:Absolutely.
798
:Janene: Alright.
799
:Thank you everyone who is listening.
800
:We appreciate you being
here with us today.
801
:If you have any questions or you'd like
to reach out to Anna or myself, you'll
802
:find the information in the show notes.
803
:Have a great day, and as
always, enjoy Pricing.