We learn in acupuncture school that the body, mind and spirit are woven together into the tapestry of one’s life. We learn that each of the yin organs has a spirit aspect, and that we can’t touch the body without touching the mind and vise versa. And yet there are blockages that are lodged more in the psycho-emotive realm and can at times prevent healing on the physical level. 

In this show we explore the healing of emotional trauma. Investigate some ways of thinking about how to interact with the spirit aspects of the organs, how facial diagnosis can help both with understanding where a patient’s problem is lodged and if our treatment is having an effect, and how channel palpation can lead us directly to blockages and help us make choices about choosing effective points. 

In addition we discussion some self-care practices for patients and get an overview of CT’s thoughtful and clinically based book on healing emotional trauma.

Listen in for a wide ranging discussion on working with emotions, trauma and some useful diagnostic tools that both allow you to diagnose and check the effectiveness of your treatment. 

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold itself

separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our medicine

did not grow out of Petri dish, experimentation, or double blind studies.

It arose from observing nature in our party.

East Asian medicine evolves, not from the examination of dead structures, but

rather from living systems with their complex neutrally entangled interactions.

Welcome to qiological.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues,

pertinent to practitioners and students of east Asian medicine, dialogue and

discussion have always been elemental to Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic.

My guest today is CT Holman.

CT is an acupuncturist in Salem, Oregon.

He's been practicing since about the year 2000, and he's recently

written a book on healing, emotional trauma with Chinese medicine.

That's the main focus of our discussion today.

In addition to all this, he is a director of development over at Lotus Institute.

The a, the only in bridges organization that teaches facial diagnosis.

And he knows quite a bit about that, teaches it here in the

states and abroad as well.

And like I said, our show today, while we'll be talking some about the book,

mostly what we're going to be talking about is the applications that come

from this book and the methods in working with emotional trauma, using our

methods of acupuncture and Chinese man.

CT.

Welcome to qiological.

Thank you so much, Michael.

It's great to be here.

It's great to have you.

We first ran into each other in Beijing and like the early two.

O's right.

Yeah.

It's crazy to connect again.

It's been so long.

I don't have no podcast in those days.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

So we were there studying with Dr.

Juan Jui, correct?

Yeah.

The channel palpation, which I want to get into a little bit later here in the show.

That sounds great.

Yes.

You know, I'm always curious about what brought people to sort of the

specialty that they do or the thing that's really got their attention.

You know, you just wrote this book.

It sounds like you do a lot of work with healing, emotional trauma.

What got you interested in working with these kinds of issues and how

is it that you've been able to craft Chinese medicine into helping you with.

Well, I've always been fascinated by the spirit.

And when I was in school, I always gravitated towards

teachers who specialized in treating emotional imbalances.

And I even ended up interning at an outpatient psychiatric ward where

patients who'd been admitted, had to have been admitted to the hospital twice.

And last six months, these were severe, uh, psychiatric patients and

just saw amazing results with using acupuncture and Chinese medicine.

Now, was this, was this like an extern type of thing, or is this something

that you sort of crafted up on your own?

It was part of the school program, like where you do, uh, out,

you know, outreach and clinics.

And so one of my teachers worked with the psychiatric ward in San Francisco

to, um, allow acupuncture to be part of this integrated program and the program.

They had, um, art therapy and group therapy and individual therapy, and

she was able to name's pat Keenan.

She was able to get us in there.

Primarily ear acupuncture treatments, but group treatments for patients there.

And they really responded very well to it.

So that was kind of one of my first exposures to using acupuncture,

to treat emotional conditions.

Right, right.

From the get go.

I mean, you're still in school and getting to experiment with us.

Yeah.

And I was very blessed with some great teachers and just seeing how the emotions

played such a role and their physical manifestations of different symptoms.

So once I started my practice, I found the same thing.

I was noticing that people had these emotional conditions that

tied into their physical issues.

And, you know, it was treating people who had experienced

emotional trauma and one person.

I remember, uh, specifically she had been in a car accident years before, and wasn't

really responding to treatments like for neck pain or, you know, specific issues

she might be having that were physical.

And I went back to a tree.

That I kind of morphed from a treatment that I was taught in school to help,

uh, grounded center, someone after a trauma, even if it had been years

ago and notice that once we did that, the treatments for more specific

conditions were working really well.

So that led me, led me more to try to study in depth about the

emotions and how they really played a role in the physical body.

Yeah.

You know, this is one of the beauties of Chinese medicine is that, you

know, we really don't draw these distinctions between mind and body.

There they're aspects of the same thing.

And so of course it makes a lot of sense to us that working on one side of that

coin will affect the other side of it.

This grounding treatment that you were doing, what does that look like?

Well, it's primarily working with points to affect the earth element,

but I really look at it in a bigger way of working with mothering the body.

So it's kind of a three-stage approach when I treat trauma, but the first stage

is really grounding and centering someone.

So when someone experiences emotional trauma, it can be, you know, this

can be a wide variety of traumas.

It could be childhood trauma, birth trauma, divorce, loss of a

loved one natural disaster, a car accident, a serious health diagnosis,

anything like that is, uh, creates a shock and it scatters the energy.

So, you know, as we know, the body has a rhythm it's trying to maintain homeostasis

when it experiences a shock, the energy scatters, and it's no longer able to.

I maintain that rhythm very well or respond to treatments even for specific

conditions to acupuncture Chinese herbs.

So the first thing I want to do is really center that person.

And the core treatment is using pericardium six, spleen six Ren

12, and you had Tom and these points all have an ability to.

Uh, center and settle the body.

I mean, pericardium sticks not only calms the spirit, but it works on the human way

to help nourish all the organs with blood.

Because when you get scattered the energies no longer Floyd well, and

the organs aren't being nourished just helps to center someone that way.

Ren 12 is literally the center of the body.

So it guides all the treatment towards the center, spleen six, you know,

it's on the earth channel, but it also affects the liver and kidney.

And so it's helping to ground someone and also provide that nourishment.

And then the in Tong is working on the third eye to really help someone

step out of their individual drama and see the bigger picture and shift

away from being caught in that cycle to then be able to see where they are

in the whole kind of universal aspect and begin processing their trauma.

Right.

Opens up the perspective.

Correct?

Yeah.

So it's, it's pretty amazing.

I mean, it really does help someone who's feeling so out of sorts and the

spirit can, um, be so shocked and scared that it could literally leave the body.

And so it's helping somebody get back into their body, into their power,

into their full awareness, so they can then begin processing the trauma

and move forward and transform that.

I think we've all met people that, you know, you look at them or you talk to

them and it seems like they're not all quite there, which I would think is

sort of a spirit, not quite connected to the, to the physiology, you know,

not quite connected to the body.

What are some other ways of bringing that back of inviting that to return?

So besides doing acupuncture.

The other thing that I do is, uh, a little more esoteric, but it is part of

the core of actually Chinese medicine, um, in terms of the shamonic aspect.

So as we know, shamanism was a big influence on Chinese medicine in the

early days, even before the jig and they, the sharp ones would use drumming.

And so I've recently been using shamonic drumming on my clinic as well.

This last year I released a CD actually using shamonic drumming.

And I've studied with, uh, this one drum teacher, Toby Christianson, who

studies with a tribe in Africa who uses drumming for healing and has

developed these five element beads.

And when I studied with Toby, I realized how similar the five elements

of this dog are a tribe in west Africa is to the Chinese medicine.

And, uh, started working with these beats and playing with these beads

and realizing how much they do connect with the Chinese five elements.

And I used those along with, uh, just a shamonic trans speed,

and that is very powerful.

So when people come into my clinic who experienced emotional trauma, at least

for the first treatment or so I will use this drumming along with the gathering.

I call it the gathering, she treatment, this treatment that was talking about

it really helps to bring them back into their body, into their spirit.

And so.

You know, when I was studying in school, you learn about the spirit.

You learn about the emotions, but, you know, there's only so much

time that can be allotted to that.

And I realized that I just need to study more in depth.

And I began studying with different teachers to work with the emotions,

work with the spirit and working, you know, through cheek, on practicing self

cultivation and doing that also helped me to get more in depth with my own spirit,

my own emotional health and help transform all the emotional traumas that I had.

And I realized through doing that, she gone working with facial

diagnosis and other modalities.

I could begin to perceive people's spirits better.

I could see when someone's spirit wasn't fully in their body.

I could see when certain emotions were stronger and affecting the

physiology through those practices.

I began to almost really Intuit the balances of the spirits

and that's helped so much.

You know, seeing when these treatments I have kind of got to a certain

completion point to then move to the next level, you talk about the

spirits and we have this amazing idea in Chinese medicine that each of the

elements has their own spirit aspect.

Right.

There's the . I mean, there's a lovely terms.

And for me, they're a little bit slippery.

It's like, how do we know when we're dealing with the spirit aspect and

how do we know when we're dealing with maybe something that's, that's

not particularly spirit aspect.

I mean, I'm not saying that we draw a distinction like

Western medicine does that.

There's, you know, there's a body and there's a mind, we know this

as a continuum, but I'd love to get your take on the, uh, five

spirit aspects of the know.

Well, this is a core treatment of course, to treat emotional trauma,

understanding the spirits does help to determine what you can do for diagnosis.

How are you going to treat these kinds of things?

I was first really exposed to understand the spirits with working with Dr.

WAM cause you're right.

They're very slippery.

It's you know, what does it mean when someone has a weak

PO how does that even look?

What are we looking for and how do we diagnose that?

And then even more on how do we treat it?

So the first thing I tried to get as an understanding of what the spirits and

how to even, you know, put them into some kind of framework, I'll use this example.

When I teach, uh, let's say someone decides they want to be a pilot.

You know, they're sitting around one day and they get this

thought, I want to be a pilot.

Well, they get an insight.

They just, something comes to them.

And it just turns on a light bulb.

That to me is like the shin.

It's really bringing that insight.

Just a flash of light.

So I think, okay, there's the Shen?

Well, then they have to, uh, make a plan after process.

How are they going to do this?

How are they going to go through all the different motions of, you know, going

for training, applying for a license, uh, doing the testing, maintaining

all of this well that's processing.

And that's trying to, you know, taking an idea and really working

with it and processing it.

So I look at that as being the E well then to go ahead and actually accomplish

the goal and move forward and do it and have that courage and determination.

That really is about the hoop.

It's really choosing the right timing to act.

And so, you know, when someone's going to become a pilot, they have

to, you know, have everything, their ducks in a row, so to speak.

And that's more of a Hoon type of thing to really decide the right timing.

And when to go ahead and move forward.

As they accomplish this, they have to have clear boundaries with themselves and the

environment, how to, how they're going to interact with, you know, the different

aspects of becoming a pilot and have that tenacity to really reach their goal.

Having that, that rooted core strength.

That's really about the poll.

I look at that as a, it's been about the PO and then in terms of following

their path, you know, you've got this insight to be a pilot work came from

somewhere and that is their core path.

That's their, their essence.

Then you have a strength and a base to provide their stability,

to stay with that goal.

And that really is detour.

So looking at it in terms of those ways, I could then begin to understand,

okay, when someone comes into the clinic, you know, they first walk in.

I try to Intuit, you know, where is there?

Where are the spirits?

You know, are they, are they strong?

Are they supported?

Um, are they congested?

Are they confined?

How am I getting a sense of feeling that?

So, you know, when we check the Pauls, we look at the tongue, look at the face.

This will give us an idea of those balances of the spirits and the five

elements, but you can also sense it.

And so one example I give is someone comes in and you might

just sensibly first walk in.

They just don't have very strong boundaries.

They're really open and they have a unclear way of

defining themselves from you.

That would give me an idea about their PO and I would start thinking about

wanting to strengthen their posts through acupuncture, herbs, lifestyle,

nutrition, these kinds of things.

In the book.

I give an example of a woman.

Who experienced intense trauma throughout her life and all the face.

We can talk about this in a moment, but on the face, you can look

at different markers that will show you where the essence has

been blocked at different ages.

And then you could ask, I mean, you're not going to be able to tell

from a marker exactly what happened, but you know, something did happen.

Something significant that blocked that essence coming

into their life at that age.

So for example, it's a few trauma she had when she was three years

old, she had severe case of measles where she almost died.

Um, this of course is going to affect the lungs.

And so it was just kind of an initial hit to her lungs and to our PO and then

through her childhood, um, teenager, she had several traumas that related.

To boundaries.

One thing, Michael, I think it's really interesting when I do facial

diagnosis, looking at the, the age map, there's different bouts.

You can look at on the face with the age map, you'll see typically patterns

developing from where you can see the essence was compromised at different ages.

You might see in a cycle of three years or five years, you talk

with the person you find out what these different traumas were.

And typically there's an ongoing thread or theme of a pattern that

these people have experienced.

And typically he knows, we know in a psychology, your initial

perception of the world is developed between ages zero and seven.

And you start to create what you believe is happening in the world.

And this is where a lot of patterns and belief systems begin.

And what I find interesting with emotional trauma is these traumas tend to trigger.

These different beliefs that people have until they finally transform them.

Right.

So, so you're running into people that like they get an accidents or a lot, or

they find themselves in the same kind of relationship or same sort of job troubles.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So exactly.

And there's something that might happen.

Like someone who might've had, like, you know, when there are two years

old, their mother was really ill.

Then it, uh, five years old, their, their dad, um, had to leave and couldn't

take care of the family and they got sick and then their sister was almost

died and you get this Steamboat ongoing theme of I've not saved around health.

My health is not going to allow me to be, sir, you know, have survival.

Well, this case, this woman, she had different traumas around boundaries.

Her dad was actually a spy.

And when she was living in Germany, she couldn't interact with him in

public because that would compromise.

Her relationship with, they would know that this is her daughter.

And so it was kind of a boundaries issue.

Then when she was a teenager, she was gang raped.

Uh, throughout her childhood, her mother was an alcoholic.

There are all these different issues around boundaries.

And so when she came in to see me, she had, um, her physical symptoms were,

um, having chronic bronchitis and also she was experiencing a lot of grief.

So we started working with her with her boundaries.

Now she had already done some work on her boundaries when she was in her

twenties, she stopped using drugs.

She became a teacher and she started having more of a sense of herself.

But, um, it wasn't fully there yet.

So we were doing, uh, I worked with points on kind of an, a five element

where you really working with the earth and water elements to mother, her and

work with the mother, worked with the daughter to then, um, help build up.

What was so fascinating, I've worked with this one over, um, for a number of years.

And as she started getting stronger at the time she was an accountant and

she just realized that she, she was doing it because she was good at it.

She could make a lot of money, but it wasn't her to Coleen, but

she didn't feel like she had the strength to really do her, her to

Colleen and put herself out there.

So to speak and through working with her PO of course, working with their

kidneys too, and earth elements, um, she began feeling stronger and she

could step into her power and really follow her journey to becoming.

And so she started writing and she wrote a memoir, uh, her personal story about

all these different things that have happened to her over her life, which

was very, it was groundbreaking for her.

She then began feeling, oh, I can write, I can put myself out there and write.

But what was interesting is she was still having issues around boundaries.

She was experiencing possessions where she would lose consciousness for

five minutes, up to a couple hours.

And her partner would tell her that she was, uh, speaking in different

voice, talking about different people, uh, that didn't relate to

her life, all these kinds of things.

She was still had that compromise of her boundaries.

So we had to work more on her, you know, her lungs or kidneys or earth element.

And she got stronger yet.

Again, even further.

And now she's writing a book, but it's not a better self it's about Mary Magdalen.

And she's writing a whole series of these different women through history.

Who've been significant who had a lot of power.

So to me, it was just beautiful.

Like she has just grown in her ability to make her way, however

boundaries and really follow her path.

And these things take time.

Don't say they do.

It's not instant.

I mean, we'd love them to be instant, but they're the one thing I will say,

working with the spirit, you know, working with the gene Chan said,

you're working with all these when you're doing acupuncture and Chinese

medicine and, you know, working with nutrition and lifestyle ideas.

And she gone the spirit though, I will have to say works so fast and

you can tune into someone's spirit and just say a couple sentences.

It will launch them so far in their path.

And I find that to be fairly true.

It's through my practice.

I mean, of course I'm always working with the DJing achieve, but when I can

try to tap into those, when you can really find out what is that pattern,

what's the belief system that tends to be kind of driving their life and

try to flip that and transform it.

Things can happen so quickly with that spirit level.

With that ShaoYin level.

I found that, yes, I I've noticed as well in my clinic.

Sometimes patients will say something and it's like, they're saying it,

they're saying it, but they're not hearing what they're saying.

I don't even know how I'd catch that.

I just, I guess I've just sat with people enough that I notice when people

are saying something about, they're not hearing what they're saying and all I

have to do, I don't even use a needle.

All I have to do is say back to them, what they just said to.

For me, it's just a way of clarifying that I'm understanding 70 board.

Yeah.

And sometimes it comes back in their eyes just like get wide and they kind of saw it

in the expression on their face, softens their breathing dramatically changes.

And they're like, w w what?

And I'm thinking, you just said it.

Right.

But they, but, but they've not been able to take it in themselves.

Right.

And so those moments where they actually can take it in

something quite dramatic can show.

They have the answers inside.

I mean, we're just based on the way I look at it, as I think the message

is being guides and helping them on their path to fully embody their power.

And, you know, that's why I found that the gathering treatment helps so much to

help them get settled and center to really see what it is that's happening for them.

You know, as we do the treatments for people and I'm working with people for

emotional trauma, we get them centered.

They still can be triggered by different things in their life that will bring

back that old emotional trauma.

You know, if somebody is in a car accident with a red truck and they, you know,

later driving down the road, see a red truck, they might get triggered again.

Oh my gosh, that truck's going to hit me.

And they still have this trauma memory.

That's running the show in a lot of ways.

And what I found interesting is, you know, gathering and centering

them help, but then they would still have these trauma memories.

That would then discombobulate their cheeky again, it

would scatter things again.

So it led me to want to study even more in depth with different teachers

and working with those emotions.

And one teacher led me to, with Susan Johnson who teaches, uh, the master dog

style, the tongue style acupuncture, and she had a treatment that she taught

me that really was, uh, pretty amazing.

It really launched me to another level of treatment with emotional trauma.

And that was working with these different scalp points.

It's a treatment that she learned from her teacher, Dr.

. It then helped people to quote unquote cycles through the

emotions, through the trauma memory.

So then when they do have these different triggers that happen, you know, they

see someone who looks like their ex or, um, are reminded of their mother

when they come across an old family picture who they've recently lost.

They're not so shocked.

Traumatized yet again, and they can continue to move forward on that process

so they can just associate from it a bit.

It's not so immediate for them.

Yeah.

It's not so raw.

I mean, yeah.

You said a woman in the clinic yesterday who.

Her sister was in a serious car accident 10 years ago.

I ha I treated her a long time ago, but she's came in again recently out of

curiosity, asked her, you know, oh, you know, your sister had his car accident.

How do you feel about it?

Well, she instantly started crying.

It was almost as if it didn't just happen and I could see, okay, she's still

having that program runs so fresh in her mind that now we have to begin working.

I mean, of course the first thing I did was one of the center her, but once she

feels more centered, we can start working with these points to then help suit

the trauma memory and then really move into more of the individual treatments,

you know, working with the five elements and trying to balance things.

But we first have to get things.

So they're not continually shocking.

The cheap, you got to settle things down.

What are these scalpel?

So this Cal points are due 20, do 24 and then an Osher point that is, uh,

approximately one and a half soon out from the midline on the, on the hairline.

So this out do 24.

And these points, the way I've been taught, understood them.

Cause I also studied with, um, uh, Dr.

Tran who talks about working a lot with doing spirit acupuncture,

quote unquote, and bringing down the cosmic water from the universe.

So what I believe is happening is, you know, we do 20, by the way, is the

opening to the university, the heavenly energy from above and doing these

spirit points is guiding down the water, the cosmic water from the universe to

soothe and calm those traumas traumas.

When they happen, they create wind and fire and the water can Suze all of that

and, uh, calm their spirit and get them to be again, more that clear persuasive.

On a more Western physiological level.

I do study a bit of Western medicine and the emotional trauma

work that's being done currently.

And there's a lot to be said about that, and we don't want to make it necessarily

direct connections with Chinese medicine.

That's what my teacher taught me.

Dr.

Wong's talked a lot about that too.

We'd like to understand, you know, the Western medicine approach.

We want to wouldn't want to make it exactly the same, but we do have to

look at the prefrontal cortex, the limbic system and the brainstem, you

know, the limbic system is the emotional center and the prefrontal cortex is

what allows someone to understand if they're in the present moment?

Well, when the Olympic system gets charged, you know, say from, from an

emotional trauma or a trauma memory, it can override the prefrontal cortex and

then send hormones and signals to the nerves that have like this, uh, Nerve

response and the person right back in it, the right back in that trauma, even though

it's not happening currently, right.

And that limbic system will override the frontal cortex every time.

But there is a lot of work be done to show that you can improve the

connections between the prefrontal cortex and the Olympic system.

So the prefrontal cortex can check the Olympic system and they've done a lot

of work now with, uh, brain scans to see how people are able to establish

better connections so they can stop that limbic system from really charging.

And I really see these scalp points as being one way to help with that.

Is there some information that you could send me and I'll put it on the show notes

page that would let people go check out this thing they're talking about here.

The some materials about for being able to, uh, use the frontal cortex

to shut down the limbic response.

Right.

Um, or Omar does check the Olympic response yesterday.

Dr.

Bessel van der Kolk.

He's a MD who works a lot with emotional trauma and an

emotional trauma center in Boston.

And he wrote a book.

I think I saw a Ted talk of his.

Oh, did you?

Okay, thanks.

So the name is familiar.

His book is called the body keeps score and it was published in 2014

and he talks quite a bit about this.

What's so interesting about Dr.

is he, you know, looks at the traditional Western medicine approach of doing, you

know, counseling and this kind of thing, but has been working with yoga, drumming,

different like breathing therapies to see how that helps that connection between

the prefrontal cortex, the limbic system.

So it's a really interesting approach where he's taking a lot

of the things that we know about a Chinese medicine to help benefit the.

So in the book, I talked quite a bit about that and talk about some of

the connections between the brain triad is he likes to call it like,

how does the limbic system relate to the Chinese medicine aspect or the

prefrontal cortex and this kind of thing.

So I think there's, there's a lot that, uh, Western medicine and

Chinese medicine can do together to really help benefit people and,

you know, get the best outcome.

Yeah.

Are there any other sort of, and I'm not looking for shortcuts

here, but any, any go tos that you often will use to help people calm

down from an incredibly agitated state or a chronic agitated state?

Well, besides the calming treatment that the gathering cheat treatment

that I was talking about, there's some points, there's some great Airpoints.

I mean, ShaoYin man and 0.0, that masters point, right?

In the, instead of the year, those two points are very

effective breathing techniques.

I have people do that.

I do like the trauma pain.

Um, I talked with people about.

Tapping the emotional freedom technique.

I don't know if you're familiar with that.

I've heard of it.

I'm not that familiar with it.

I, I know they used the meridians to some degree, but I

don't know that much about it.

Tell us something about it.

Yeah.

I find it very helpful.

In fact, that woman I was talking about yesterday with her,

I'm remembering the accident.

Her sister was.

I instantly started tapping with her and hurt her tion changed

a amazing and amazing ways.

Um, what it is is a, it's a, it's a technique that's used by counselors

and they absolutely use the meridians and acupuncture points and they use

several points on the, the face scalp area on the torso and on the fingertips.

What's interesting in these points, um, incorporate a lot of the Juul well points.

They incorporate a lot of points to deal with consciousness like do 26.

And you essentially, you're just tapping on these points lightly

with your fingertips, uh, for about five seconds on each point.

And you go through the circuit also, as you do these points, you can save

an affirmation that I am feeling blank.

Like whatever the emotion is, things diety, um, worry, anger, fear, um,

I'm feeling this emotion, but I deeply and completely love and accept myself.

And you're kind of saying that in your mind, as you're

tapping on these points and.

It is remarkable.

Michael, I've seen, I've seen people in the clinic once

they've tapped helped so much.

And then what I love about this technique, it's something that's free.

They can do whatever they want.

And it's very easy to learn.

I always give people a little map of the points in the book.

There's a map too.

You can go and look up emotional freedom technique and find them up online.

It's a great tool that I give people because you know, you can't be

with them 24 7 doing acupuncture.

So, uh, they have this, this go-to technique they can do.

And there's one point read 17 that I find, um, kind of as a, you know, if I, if they

can't remember any of the points due rent 17, and it really helps get them back

in their heart, in their body centering.

And there's also rent 12.

They could do with that.

I treat kids in my clinic too in kindergarten or my clinic.

And she was having a lot of anxiety, you know, with kids at

that age, I treat babies and babies.

I don't know if you treat kids, but babies are so easy with acupuncture.

It's no problem.

Like they're fine with it.

Um, you know, just do in and out, no big deal.

But once the kid, the child turns four to eight, it seems to be kind of a

nightmare, at least for me to treat kids, uh, because they're so used to inoculate

patients, they're scared about needles.

They've already got an idea of what a needle might mean.

Right.

And so of course, it's, it's not the same thing as a we're doing

it, but it is what it is for them.

So, um, a lot of times I won't do acupuncture.

I'll do acupressure and use it all.

Um, you know, different tools, all those channels is kind of thing.

But, uh, I taught this girl, the tapping.

She found it so effective that she went to school and taught her whole

class and now the class was tapping.

And so that was just, that was beautiful.

I was so happy to hear that, you know, it's lovely, especially

sweet for a kid to do that when I'm just thinking it's so lovely.

Whenever anyone that we help get something out of it and they can go and help

somebody else with what they've learned.

That that's always just so wonderful.

I want to come back a little bit to some other stuff that you

were talking about earlier in the show around the facial diagnosis.

I might be opening up a can of worms here.

I don't want to go like way far down the rabbit hole, but I'd like to, I'd like

to take a glimpse inside the rabbit hole.

Okay.

So you were talking about being able to read a certain kind of

trauma at a certain age on the face.

I like to know a little more about that.

Well, I study with and bridges, and now we, uh, we teach this abroad and, uh, it's

very, it's a very effective technique.

You know, when I first graduated school, I internally just like that

example, I gave you that person, that woman who wants to become a pilot,

I had this, I had this thing in me.

I want to learn face reading.

Peers of wine thought it was, oh, don't do that CT.

It's just a beauty thing.

It's just, you know, it's superficial, don't learn that.

And at the time, you know, this was back in the early two thousands,

uh, facial diagnosis was not really considered a much in Chinese medicine.

It was definitely a very esoteric thing.

It was an aside to Chinese medicine.

Now it's become a lot more accepted as a core diagnostic technique.

Facial diagnosis is part of the.

Diagnostics in Chinese medicine and in aging, there's a great quote

that talks about the superior going.

I like the term superior, but the superior doctor uses three diagnostics,

which includes looking at the color of the skin, um, feeling that

channels and checking the pulse.

What we, that quote was actually used by Dr.

Wan to support gentle palpation for feeling the channels, but cause it's,

it's fricking and plucking the skin, but there was also looking at the color of

skin which supports the facial diagnosis.

There is these age maps I was talking about are part of the core,

um, texts in, uh, China for the earliest texts in Chinese medicine.

So this facial diagnosis was a, a thing that was used for centuries.

Um, but the thing that's so interesting.

It was lost somehow along the way, because when I was in school, we didn't

talk about facial diagnosis and it certainly wasn't being talked much about.

So, you know, after resisting the urge to go stay with spatial diagnosis,

I probably said, you know what, I'm going to stay with Lillian.

I've just, I've got to do it.

So I started Lillian and it opened up a whole world for me, because

you could see so much on the face.

You can see someone's different emotional traumas at different ages.

You can see their personality, you can see their past present and future.

You can get an understand of the different organs, how they're functioning.

You can even use it for matchmaking and for hiring people for a job.

There's, it's, it's very, it's a very versatile technique, but of course I

use it primarily for medical diagnosis.

And one thing that I found very interesting to study with Lillian is

I want to learn more about Gigi and ShaoYin and she teaches the facial

diagnosis and those three levels, because there's so many face maps.

People get fresh when I teach face reading sometimes because, you know, I talk one

moment about the age Mac Racine, the side here, but then I talk about on the

emotional map, we see this line there, and then we talk about the Oregon bat,

but I see this indication on the chin.

And so they get, oh my gosh, so many things happening, but there's

different maps that relate to the different, um, levels gene change done.

So the age Mount that I was talking about earlier that really relates

to the DJing and DJing is a, is a huge topic in today's medicine.

And there's often a not well understood.

I'm still understanding myself.

I'm still working it out too.

And in a moment, I'm going to come back and ask you about your take on it.

And the gene level with face potential diagnosis, we're looking

at a few different things, but one of the maps is the age HVAC.

And so the age map really is the markers, these horizontal markers on

the face and on the ear that indicates.

How the gin came in to be at that age.

You know, uh, when I first started studying Chinese medicine, I thought that

gene was just all given to a purchase.

One big blast touching.

There you go for the rest of your life.

Well, what I'm understanding is DJing actually is solely

doled out over your life.

It's not all in one shot.

So each year you're getting a different amount of gene.

And as that gene comes into your being, it can either come in fully

and manifest and support your body, or it can become blocked.

And so these age markers are really looking at where that gene was blocked.

And you can look on the face to understand, you know, where

did that person have blockages.

So just as a general sweeping idea, The zero to 12 ish years are on the ears.

Then the teenage years are across the hairline to twenties

are across the forehead.

The thirties are around the eyes, the forties on the nose to fifties,

rather than mouse six and the 10.

So, you know, someone comes in who's 40 years old.

You might see a marker at, uh, eight 60.

Well, wait a second.

They haven't had any trauma at 60, cause they're not even 60 yet, but you can

see that markers coming up for them.

So you can work with that person to determine first what's the pattern.

So that woman I talked about earlier had the pattern of boundaries

when she came into my clinic, uh, this was about three years ago.

I saw a pretty strong marker at 73.

Well, she was 60 at the time.

And when I said, you know, cause I, I told her she's in the book.

And so I told her, could I take your picture and have you in the

book and talk about your life?

Of course she agreed.

So I started talking to, will tell me, you know, what do you see?

And I said, why is he this at this stage?

And that, oh yeah, that happened to be that this happened to be at that age.

I said, oh, and I'm also seeing this Margaret 73 where her

whole shed totally went out.

Like she got completely dark or eyes or nodes.

There was no light in her eyes.

She had a very, you know, like a white, scared, um, appearance.

I said, well, whoa, you know, what's with 73, you know, you're not 73.

Why are you so said, well, both my parents died at 73.

I've always been scared about that age and said, oh wow, uh, this a, it's a

marker kind of on the size of the chin.

And so I said, well, Hey, you know, we're going to work more

with you at the boundaries.

At the time, she had really started working on that book on Mary Magdalene.

Well, once you start working on that book and she recently has pretty much

finished a, a solid draft on it and has a lot of interest actually in this

book, if that marker is almost gone.

So this Ching aspect is not only about what has happened, but

you're talking about because it doesn't all come out at once.

It sort of comes out in different packets or phases, and there might

be just the way things are set up.

There might be an issue at a certain point in the future.

Correct.

So you can see that's going to market get for them in the future.

So what's your pattern or pattern is dealing with boundaries.

Well, she can transform that belief system.

Then she will lessen the blow of that future trauma coming up

because she's, she's transformed it.

It's no longer, uh, an issue for her.

So now that she has stronger boundaries, whatever's going to happen at 73.

It's gonna be more of a speed bump at this point.

That's how I say we can see the past present and future.

You can see what's coming down the road for someone.

I think that's one of the beauties of working with a facial diagnosis is not

only understanding what the pattern is, the person's cycling in, but how

to transform it before they get to an age that it could be significant.

Well, you know, in acupuncture school, I suspect all of us were taught some

of the very basics, looking to see how the five elements show up on the face.

Is there something.

You know, what, what color do they show at their temples and like around their

mouth or they sort of Woody or is, or is that a fire thing or, you know,

we're taught some of that basic stuff.

Are there a couple of things that you could give our listeners here right now?

I mean, you just described the age map, but is there anything else

that sort of a simple thing that people could take into their clinic

and start looking for that might be helpful to them in their patients?

There's always the concern that a little bit of information used could be maybe

detrimental, but I think starting to look at a little bit of stuff is helpful.

I would encourage people who are interested in facial

diagnosis to read Lilian's book.

And also in this book that I've written, it talks quite a bit

about different sections, but that she mapped, I think is the most.

Um, the Oregon map, I think is the most easy to utilize in the clinic

because it's specifically where you see the organs on the face.

So people can start looking at those areas and.

You know, oh, I see their chin doesn't it looks a little bit

wildly there's lines in their chin.

Well, the chin relates to the kidney element.

It relates specifically to the emotions.

So when someone comes in and has we say like a wobbly chin or where

their, their skin on a channel looks.

You know, an orange peel where you can really see the pores there.

This is something where you can see, oh, this person is experiencing fear.

Even if they might not say anything, because like you said, before

people come in and they'll, they'll, they'll say what's going on for them.

But sometimes people will say the opposite of what's going on for

them, because they want to put up maybe a show or this kind of thing.

So you can really see the real reality what's going on with this person.

So you might see some lines or, uh, dimples in the, I shouldn't say dip

bowl, cause that's some people have that one dimple, but more of like a wobbly

aspect of the chin looks as it looks as if something is a little out of sorts.

With the kidneys.

Sure.

And, um, so there's that one, or you mentioned the temples, that is

an area that relates to the liver.

People sometimes have darkness in their temples.

If people, if you look at the pictures of Robin Williams before

he took his life before he died by suicide, they're very, very dark.

And the temples, in fact, the darkness went all the way

down his face into his job.

So when someone comes in, oh, they have darkness in their temples, okay.

This person might be suffering from some pretty strong depression.

And you can look at that area.

The other interesting thing about the Oregon map and the facial characteristics,

the different, um, aspects of the face, you can also understand the strength of

the elements, the strength of the organ.

So, and that, you know, that's a great thing too, because so often

people come in because they feel broken and they're very in touch with

their weaknesses, but they're not.

So in touch with their stress.

That's exactly right.

And so the one thing I really love about, uh, and Bridge's facial, uh, lineage and

her approach and her family's approach is trying to help the person understand their

gifts, their talents, their strengths.

There is no wrong chin.

There is no wrong forehead.

There's no, you know, not the best nose.

It's nothing like that.

It's understanding, letting that person understand what characteristics,

what traits did they have?

How do they work together and what are their gifts to the human family?

Because ultimately with facial diagnosis, you're helping someone

see themselves and love themselves.

And that to me is incredibly powerful because it will shift that energy.

If they are feeling weak and broken and victimized, it shifts them, going to see.

Okay, this is what I have to offer.

So for example, like with, uh, the liver, if you want to see the strength

of the liver, one easy way to check is the eyebrows, you know, does someone

have really thick, bushy eyebrows or their eyebrows very thin or thinning?

This will tell you how the liver can process toxins.

So if you do herbs in your clinic, Be aware that if someone has very

thin eyebrows, they might not be able to take her, or at least you

need to have the dose be lower.

So this is something, uh, where you can also understand not only

the emotions that they might be experiencing in that element, but

also the strength of the elements.

So the eyebrows are another area you can look at for the wood.

If you want to look at the fire element, the heart and small intestine pericardium,

you can look at the tip of the nose.

This is a very, uh, clear area where you can understand

what's going on with the heart.

When I were just teaching at the TCM Congress and Rothenberg last year,

and we did a class on cardiology, but just in depth, uh, diagnostic

work about the heart, about the nose.

And one thing we'll look at the noses for the colors.

Like you mentioned the color of the face.

Well, if there is a lot of redness in their nose, Okay, then we're talking

at the tip of the nose here is that would be more heat in the heart.

But if there's vessels in darkness, there's more blood stagnation.

There could be inflammation in the vessels.

If you see those vessels in the nose, you see whiteness, there could be

cold or blood deficiency in the heart.

So at one patient come up who had a really dark nose.

And, you know, I asked her, well, okay, what's going on at east strong

emotional trauma in your past?

Well, not, not too much trauma, but right now my horse is very sick.

I was like, oh, okay.

And I said, well, you know, hopefully your horse feels better.

I said, well, that's the problem is my, uh, my husband doesn't want to spend the

money to take the horse to get treatment.

I said, oh.

And so she was feeling, um, anger, but also she had a lot of, uh,

you know, hurt in her heart.

She had a line across the, the upper tip of the nose, which indicates

the pericardium is very tight.

So.

We should do some treatments.

So I palpated we'll maybe talk about channel hobbies, maybe do some

palpation checked her Paul's determined she had, um, blood stagnation.

Wanting to help open the heart, but she also had blood deficiency and

I started telling this pretty pale and her pulse was not that strong.

So I wanted to do some points to support her heart and help with circulation and

disappoints that helped her, her nose started to become less, less stark.

But I was telling people in the clinic at the, in the seminar, I said, well, you

know, a lot of times I also do bleeding.

I like to put into my clinic actually.

And I've been taught, uh, some grappling techniques by my prime.

One of my primary acupuncture teacher, uh, Dr.

Wade shaoyang who teaches the master dog style.

He talks about using, uh, points around the stomach, 37 area.

You look for vessels there and I can release a heat and pressure

and blood stagnation, the heart.

So I said, oh, you know, sometimes we see, you know, blood stagnation.

Uh, here, but, you know, I dunno if I would be bleeding today and I

said, oh, look, we live in stereo.

Oh, well actually she does have a vessel and there was a

bleed or a bleed or a bleeder.

And you know, of course the woman she's like, yeah, believe me.

So I did pick the point and quite a few drops of blood came out and

her nose dramatically changed.

So what I think is so interesting about the facial diagnosis is not only does

it give you diagnostic information, but you can see the treatment working.

And that's, I think one of the biggest tricks in Chinese medicine

is, uh, to know, is your treatment helping is somebody who would

get an improvement from this.

If you come in and say, how do I know that what I'm doing is actually being held.

Right.

So besides, you know, feeling the channels or look or feeling the

pulse, this kinda thing, you can look on the face and see, absolutely.

These are the changes.

And so I often did my clinic.

We'll take pictures before and after treatment, you know,

sometimes the day of, or sometimes, uh, weeks, months afterwards.

And it's amazing seeing these faces shift in the book.

I have, I have quite a few pictures, color pictures of people's faces

before and after treatments.

And it's pretty phenomenal.

Even if you don't do face reading, it's pretty easy.

I think to see the changes that happened for these people.

And, you know, I got to say, it's not me doing it.

It's me helping to facilitate their energy to be fully present, to

then, uh, make these changes happen.

The amazing thing about this medicine to me, it's not that we're doing anything.

I mean, we get to guide, we get to help.

We get to assist really it's them in their chief, their own

internal doctor that does this.

I want to hear a bit about your time with Dr.

Wong and how the channel palpation fits in with the work that you do to.

Well, I was very honored, just studying and talk to Juan

and he'll be greatly missed.

He of course, as you know, he passed away this past year.

He's already greatly missed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He is.

He is greatly missed of course.

And he will continually be honored.

And, and th the good thing is there's quite a few, uh, master

teachers who are teaching.

Channel code patient, Jason Robertson.

Do you think of government going is feely, um, Nisa.

There's this guy, Jonathan, uh, there's quite a few people teaching

and I teach general population as well, but I'm not as didn't study

as in-depth as those people did.

But I started talking with Dr.

Wong back in the late nineties and it was eyeopening, uh, started studying with him.

And I know you've stayed with them as well, such a core understanding,

such a depth to understanding, uh, the physiology, how the

channels all ended in such a debt.

So dedicated to and so clear with his descriptions in generous as well.

Oh, absolutely.

So began studying with him and began to channel per patient in the clinic.

Yeah, I was in school when I first joined them at them, then I started

practicing and then, uh, began study more in depth with him and, um,

working with Jason, um, helping Jason with the book that he wrote with Dr.

Wong.

And that was another level of, you know, kind of really trying to get into

understanding of what was happening with the physiology and then understand

the channel called patient and.

I've been using it in my clinic ever since.

So, you know, for, you know, since 2000, so started practicing and

channel palpation and do the entire time I've been using it for diagnosis.

I continue to use it for diagnosis.

I've added these other, um, you know, added more.

I did a lot more in depth work with the pulse, through the shed hammer

system and then work with Lillian, but I never let the channel palpation go.

I thought that was something that's, it's, it's amazing.

As you know, in your practice, I'm sure you find it very effective.

So I do use it on all my patients and how I use it is to understand of course their

channel physiology, but understanding what's happening with the emotions.

So, you know, we talked earlier about the idea of scattering, the chief.

Do you can see that a lot on the Satya channel, you can just feel

that you can feel a series of nodules when you check along the

son, Joe, to see how all the channels have been affected by that trauma.

So a lot of times somebody comes in initially after a trauma, or

even if they haven't had the trauma fully processed and cleared, you can

find these notches on the Sonjia.

Any places, particularly along the sundial channel that

these nodules tend to show up?

Well, I would say between Sunjata four and tan Mito alone, only the form.

Of course, those statement Dr.

Warren, like you did, he primarily will fill the forum, but I feel

along the entire son jumps channels.

So there's not necessarily one, like let's just Sandra on five or six.

Of course, those can be more predominant, more bigger nodule at that point.

But a lot of times it just feel a whole line of nodules along that forearm.

So specific points, you know, there are specific points.

I will find, um, someone who has just say lost a loved one deep grief.

I'll find a pretty significant nodule at lug six.

Oh yes.

Yeah.

You've probably seen that in your practice.

No, I don't know what it is about lungs six and this, this is something

that I definitely got from Dr.

Wong because you know, he clued me into palpating.

This.

I find the lungs six shows up in all kinds of different presentations.

I mean, not just for the usual cough and asthma and blah,

blah, blah, but yes, absolutely.

For certain emotional issues often for constipation.

Yeah.

Maybe one I understand could be because of the lung governing the key.

And since that she could become affected by so many different ways.

Uh, lung six can then present being a sheet cloth point that kind of shows where

the lung she isn't flowing very clearly.

And it's an area that I will see that.

And just like on the face, you can see things resolve and change.

That's what I love about tonal palpation.

You can really see these nodules that might've been there for just

acutely or for chronically start to shift and, and transformed.

So another area that, uh, I see commonly as pericardium for this is an area

that is often affected in acute trauma.

Even if it's a long, steady char, a broken heart, or even just any type of

emotional trauma, you can see pericardium for having a nodule there, and it can

be around the pericardium four area.

And that nodule surprisingly or not surprisingly tends

to clear pretty quickly.

I've had just in one treatment, a pretty significant nodule

and even a darkness of that.

Clear after one to two treatments for people.

And I, you know, doctor wants to talk about this, talking about this, the

pericardium, it responds pretty quickly.

The Percona channel responds pretty quickly to treatment.

And, uh, that's another area that I'll look for to see if someone's having,

uh, that type of blockage from a trauma.

Let's turn to your book for a moment.

Okay.

Give us a little overview on your book and what kind of things

practitioners can learn from it.

Well, the book is, you know, a train emotional trauma, and it goes through

the beginning to, it talks about the physiology and what happens to the

Jean, Jean ShaoYin and what happens to the five elements when someone

experienced emotional trauma, then at the second chapter, which is, you know,

real quick, Diagnosing understanding the diagnostics that go along with

understanding emotional trauma.

So people, you know, might have more of a background or work with channel

palpation, or they might work more with Paul's that might work more with tongue.

They might work with facial diagnosis.

It covers each one of those aspects, pretty in-depth with how they

can use those techniques to then diagnose the emotional trauma.

And it goes quite a bit into the five elements as well, because something

that, you know, when I was in school, five minutes weren't were discussed

some, but again, there's not enough time to really go that in depth.

So I studied quite a bit more with, uh, master Wu and, and bridges on these

five elements and other teachers too.

So there's quite a bit about five elements and understanding.

Uh, how those also can be used to diagnose someone.

And then I introduced a, uh, another diagnostic technique.

That's I call it intuiting the five spirits and how things that you can

look for and things that you can send maybe sense of feel that will give

you a clue to where, what element and what, uh, spirit aspect is affected.

So that's the rule of diagnostic chapter.

Then what I think is so beautiful about Chinese medicine, is there so

many treatment modalities you can use and I use several different ones.

Um, so in there I cover acupuncture.

I also work with heavenly stems and earthly branches.

This is something I've been using for a few years now.

And so when I treat someone in the clinic, I absolutely think about where

are we in the universal energy flow.

Primarily by the month.

And so I go into depth with how you can play with this idea and try it.

There's a lot of information out there that might've been mistranslated,

but, uh, recently master junction, who has released a book about heavily

standards, the branches that is a very accessible and something that

works very well in the clinic.

So there's that.

And I talk about bloodletting quite a bit because I do use that it's very effective.

There's cupping, there's also drubbing there's nutritional therapy.

And then I talked about some of the secondary methods, like the

tapping technique affirmations, which are very powerful.

So that's chapter three.

And then in chapter four there's differentiation of symptoms.

And so someone comes in with fear.

What are all the different things that can cause fear.

And then what are the, what are the facial signs?

What are the pulse?

What are the tongue?

What's the channel palpation?

What are you seeing with each one of those diagnostics?

And then of course there's acupuncture, herbs, and how you treat that.

Oh, that sounds really helpful.

Sometimes people come in and I can't tell if they just, they ruminate

and worry because they've got this sort of earth imbalance going on.

Or if they've got some sort of kidney fair thing going.

Sometimes it's a combination.

Sometimes it's a combination, but sometimes I think it's

more than one than the other.

And so it sounds like you've got some ways of looking at this to help dial

in more specifically, which specific Oregon's system really is the one

that needs the attention first.

Yeah.

And I got the idea from, uh, the Chinese, well McClain and Jane Middleton's books.

They do this differentiation.

I really liked their layout.

So I adopted that style really for that section of the book, because I thought

it's so helpful just to look at a glance it's in these chart, formats, all those

different symptoms, because you know, when I'm treating someone, you know,

I've always different diagnostics.

I have to say in Dr.

Wong actually is who taught me this?

You know, you write down all the different symptoms someone has and all

the different, uh, possibilities that those symptoms could relate to what organ

system, what organs that could relate to.

And then you see what comes out is the, the primary organ it's coming up with

all those different symptoms and science.

So this, that really, I think.

Uh, it does a pretty good job at helping to show you all those in

one kind of swath, one glance, you know, that's a big core of the book.

Then there's a couple chapters.

One is on, uh, calling prevention of emotional trauma.

And that's kind of a loaded phrase because how can you prevent trauma from happening,

but really it's preventing how your impact is going to be from that trauma.

And I find this, I think a pretty helpful chapter for people to work on different

techniques with their elements, with their junkie to support their energy.

So when they have a trauma in the future, they won't have such a strong impact.

So there's that.

And then there's a brief chapter in there on Western medicine.

And then the last chapter is on case studies because, you know, Michael's,

we know we can talk all day long about how things work so great.

And this theory that, but until you see it working in practice, this is a golden.

Yeah, it doesn't really become real.

So I, and you know, Dr.

Wong has always stressed that, and I really enjoyed so much

study with him because he would always talk about different cases.

And so does, and so does Mr.

Wu, so does, uh, Dr.

Young and Brian, the forge of my post teacher.

So it really helps to bring it into reality and see, how

is this actually being used?

You know, I talk all about face and Paulson channel palpation, but then

when you see these certain cases and how I use those different diagnostics

and different treatments together, I think it really does help bring a lot

of this into one, um, package so people can, uh, make it more accessible.

How many pages is this book?

Well, I don't know.

It's, it's 400 pages, I guess it's pretty big.

But, uh, and, uh, but one thing I do want to say about this book too,

is I do find it very helpful for people who are not practitioners.

I just got an email from a person down in San Francisco.

Who's been reading this book along with his partner and they they're

not practitioners, but they've been finding it very helpful to work

through their emotional trauma.

So I wrote it with the spirit that, you know, that chapter for the whole

differentiating the different emotion sets to a depth for a non practitioner.

But the other chapters I think, are accessible for people to,

you know, patients to look at and understand more about themselves.

And there's a lot of self-care techniques in there that people can utilize.

So it is, you know, primarily marketed or used for practitioners.

But I, I wrote it with the intention that people from all walks of life

could look at this and get some.

Wow.

That's great.

I can't believe this time has gone by as quick as it has.

This is, this has been really fun.

Any closing thoughts that you'd like to leave with our listeners before we start?

Well, there's one idea that's been taught to me through she

gong practitioners, especially Mr.

Woo, and also to my face reading teacher, Lillian.

So the idea of returning to the source, you know, we hear about this

and she'd go and practice the idea of going back to the baby state.

But with this wisdom that we're given, uh, through our, through your life experience.

And that's something that I think emotional trauma helps people with,

you know, emotional trauma can be looked at as a negative thing, but.

I think it can also be something that's positive when someone's

able to process and transform that trauma, it opens their energy.

It brings them more into their full spirit, their full way of being, and

allows them to really bring their gifts and talents to the human family.

So I see the emotional traumas, if they can work through them, being a

real gift for them to really get back to their original energy and live

happy and strong, and really offer their talents to the human family.

Yeah.

So it could break us or it could break.

Exactly.

You got a good way to put it CT.

Thanks so much for your time today.

Thank you so much, Michael.