This podcast episode delves into the intricacies of raising a family overseas, featuring an enlightening discussion with Anna Danforth, author of "Raising a Family Overseas." We explore the challenges and profound insights gleaned from her experiences as an expatriate family consultant and a third culture kid (TCK) herself. The conversation emphasizes the importance of strong familial bonds fostered through shared experiences, which can serve as a foundation for navigating the complexities of life in a foreign culture. Additionally, we address the often underestimated impact of transitions on children and the vital role of parents in providing a consistent and nurturing environment amidst change. Throughout this dialogue, we aim to equip families with practical strategies and valuable perspectives to foster resilience and connection as they embark on their journeys abroad.

Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the importance of providing clarity and insight for families transitioning to life overseas.
• Anna Danforth discusses her experiences as an expat family consultant, highlighting the challenges and opportunities for third culture kids.
• Listeners are encouraged to create strong bonds through shared experiences, which can enhance family connections during transitions.
• The speakers stress the necessity of having realistic expectations regarding education and the adjustment process when moving abroad.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.

And my name is Aaron Sandemier and I get to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast Anna Danforth and we get to sit down and discuss her book, Raising a Family Overseas.

This is a book recommended to me by my wife Heather, who is a tck.

I'm not I mentioned that in the podcast that a third culture kid.

A tck something I'm not going to be, but I live in a family with a daughter and a son and a wife who are all third culture kids.

And so I just found the book insightful, valuable, and really wish it's something I would have had a lot of years ago.

So hopefully this conversation will be encouragement to those that are leading those moving overseas and raising a family overseas or somebody who's been overseas.

And it's not necessarily went as you thought it would go, but this is a great, valuable resource.

Resource.

And Anna is a phenomenal interview.

So it was fun to be with her and learn from her and yeah, just great, great time.

Do want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.

I know the podcast I subscribe to.

They're the ones I listen to.

They show up on my feed on Monday or Tuesday.

I'm going to know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the week and also ask you to continue to send in your questions for Back Channel with Foath.

That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him.

It's been a fun ride and looking forward to the days ahead.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we foreign.

So excited to be here today with a new friend.

Anna, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Anna, one of the joys of being a podcast host is you get to read books and you get to meet people and you feel like you know them before you actually see them face to face.

And that's kind of how I feel about you.

I got to read your book on a plane ride and then so it's been good.

Can you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you some questions?

With pleasure.

I am Anna Danforth.

I am an expat family consultant and also a TCK training instructor.

I fell into this work, or rather it found me because I grew up abroad.

My parents were with Wycliffe Bible Translators and I grew up in Cameroon in Central Africa, and I married another TCK from Congo and then turned around and raised my own TCKs, which just means third culture kids in South Africa and in Lesotho.

So it is a work I'm very passionate about.

And also, I can see your messaging aligning with it well, because you talk about addressing ambiguity and uncertainty on the field, and that is very much my life as I live in different countries.

So, yeah, these are things I enjoy talking about.

Wow.

And so, as you said, you're not.

You.

You've lived it, and now you're.

You're raising children in it.

And so it is a challenge.

My wife said, tck.

I'm not.

I'm the.

I say I'm the only one in my family who's not.

So I can't.

And I'll never be in that club.

That's a club I can't get into.

So.

But anyway, it's.

Yeah, my kids.

It's been a blessing.

So I just want to jump into some questions about how families can do this transition in a healthy way.

And I really appreciated the practicalities that you give, and, yeah, it was super helpful.

So you share that strong bonds are created over unique shared experiences, and that drives people towards each other.

Can you share a little bit more about that?

And the purpose of it drives people towards each other rather than away from each other?

Other?

Yes, absolutely.

And if anybody's wondering what we're talking about, this is from my book, Raising a Family Overseas.

And I talk about strong bonds kind of driving us toward each other, because this is something a lot of families who live abroad experience.

You see this.

And maybe a more common experience would be, you see this with veterans who have gone through war together or gone through trauma together.

They've experienced something that they understand.

There's a lot that doesn't have to be said when they get together and they're in this club.

Like you said, you're not part of the TCK club in some ways, try as you might.

And so the same.

The same is true of families who have taken an assignment abroad.

For whatever reason, they will have only been the only people probably who had an experience in a certain country and then another experience in another country and so on.

So, for example, I grew up in a very small village in Central Africa, and we were the only expat family in that village.

And I grew up speaking West African pidgin with my siblings and with my friends, so that became our language of play.

And when we went back to the US for home assignments, that continued to be Our language of play.

And as adults now, occasionally, it is still our language of play if we want to banter back and forth, but we share that language, and it became our language of play because of the unique experiences we had together, which meant we have this thing that draws us toward each other.

So some people get nervous about moving abroad or becoming missionaries.

And I want to say that this can all really be an opportunity for your family to grow closer together, which is actually something that we have found out in our latest research with TCK training that a lot of TC Keys are saying that actually made my family grow closer together.

And that's hopeful.

Wow.

And yeah, I appreciate that hope because you do hear all the challenges and all the, you know, not necessarily the great stories, but I appreciate the intentionality and highlighting the very positive things.

We, our kids would always say we had, you know, our secret language.

It was good to communicate, and that's.

We wouldn't have had that, you know, if they lived in the United States.

There's no way we.

Well, most likely would not have had a secret language in those shared experiences and joy.

So I just came.

We were sharing before.

We just came back from South Africa.

Somebody brought us some rice from Madagascar.

And somebody there said, what.

What's special about the rice from Madagascar?

I said, I don't think it's any.

I don'.

Think there's special things about rice from Madagascar.

But it's, as you said, shared experience and memories from the past.

And you just open the pack, you eat the rice and.

But it's those things.

If you've done it together, you've made memories together over that rice.

And that's where the special.

The specialness of it is.

I don't know if it tastes that different, but when you're sitting with people you love, it tastes different because you have those memories that go with it.

So when families are getting ready to transition overseas, have you found there's one or two things that maybe they underestimate about the impact of moving overseas and making that transition?

Absolutely.

I would.

I would say because we're probably mostly having missionary listeners or families of faith, it is.

It is not usually a faith aspect, things that they.

That they underestimate.

What I see in my trainings, especially for companies that are sending people abroad, and then also for the people going abroad, is misalignment, aligned expectations.

That is the first thing.

And then the second thing would be they may underestimate the impact of transition on their kids.

So misaligned expectations.

And I'm sure you have stories you could share.

Too often start with a family who is, let's say us based and they're in their pre field training and they think we're going to go join a team of people who think the same things as us and they're, they're fighting for the same things in life and we all have this mission of reaching the lost and they get overseas and their teammates don't want to hang out every single day, they don't want to share all their meals, they don't want to tell you what they're doing on the weekend.

And there's not the same level of support that maybe they expected or they get abroad and find out that part of a large part of mission work is sitting behind a desk and filling out paperwork.

And that is not something that they thought that they were going to have to sacrifice on the altar.

Their expectations.

Yeah, it is, it is wild how many people end up having to end an assignment early.

And it's wild the amount of talent loss that we have in the mission community because of misaligned expectations.

The other, the other thing was how easy it is for kids to fall through the cracks.

This can happen for a lot of different reasons.

It doesn't mean parents don't love their kids, but it can mean that there's added stress when they move somewhere new and they weren't expecting or aware of how much that would impact their ability to be responsive to their kids.

And it can also be because people are very zealous and very excited to finally get to the field and they've spent years preparing for this and they've sacrificed everything and they did the fundraising and they get there and they're excited and they get very involved and their kids can fall through the cracks in that excitement level.

So those are the.

I'd be curious to know from you though, what, what you see as things that people underestimate.

Oh, I think they underestimate a lot of things, but I think you highlighted them.

Those unrealistic, unconscious, unspoken, unrealistic, unagreed upon expectations for.

I think we have the idea of what we think it's going to be like, whether that's how we're living, the interactions, our enculturation with the people there to serve.

I think that's.

That would be a part of it.

I think the other thing is maybe I think that people sometimes think that there's going to be a parade when they get there, that they've come and so they have this idea that.

And that's not the People you're serving, they're glad to have you, but it's not necessarily a parade when you get there.

And sometimes that can lead to some hurt feelings, maybe some feelings of discouragement.

And I think the other one.

Sorry, I'll give you another one, is the people that you're joining a team with, they already, they have a life.

Right?

So they already have a life and so you're joining that.

But sometimes you feel like.

And they have shared experience.

You talked about shared experience.

Right?

They've.

They have a life and shared experience before you got there.

And sometimes it takes some time to, to navigate that and how, how we can, how we can integrate into that community rather than.

Yeah, so those, those would be some.

At least for my, My wife will laugh, she'll tell you that I was, I was surprised at BUR have a McDonald's, you know, I mean, so that, that sounds really stupid, but for, you know, I just thought Everywhere has a McDonald's and somebody told me they don't.

But then I got there and I'm like, I can't believe.

So it's a small thing, but it lets you know, like mentally I had just not made the switch and it took a while.

So I learned.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Learned a lot of lessons.

So one of the things I really valued you sharing was this idea that we can use connection as a metric for our success and, and shifting that from.

Least from a West mindset where we're driven by a lot of other things.

You're.

You're focusing on relationships.

Can you share more about that?

Yeah.

Our first example comes from our, Our call to Christ before going to the nations is actually a call to connect with him.

And John 15:5 talks about, remain in me, remain connected to me.

I am life, I am the sustainer, and then you will bear much fruit.

And so when I say that connection is the metric for success for me, a person of faith abroad, I believe that connection to God and then connection to myself, connection to family and then connection to host culture, these are things that make for health, they make for a successful ministry, and they kind of.

They also show the heart of God for people.

I think we also see this with secure attachments.

People are talking a lot about secure attachment nowadays and child development and so on.

The usually healthiest outcomes for kids later on in adulthood are the kids who are securely attached to their parents.

There is something to this whole connection business.

And often it is the first thing to go when we move abroad or when we get a new assignment or when we're really stressed out.

And so my, my word of caution to parents would be have that on your radar, have open conversations with your spouse about what.

What does connection look like for us right now?

Has it taken a hit?

Where am I doing okay?

Where can we tag team a little bit better and so on.

So that is what I mean by that.

It's, it's maybe oversimplified, but I really believe that well connected people are usually healthier in life and.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's good.

So secure attachment.

Somebody could you paint a picture, an ideal picture.

What does a secure attachment look like in a family?

Secure attachment looks like parents are responsive to kids, so they will respond when is a need.

Child knows my needs will be met here, therefore I'm secure and I can confidently go out and explore the world.

Okay.

When kids aren't getting that from mom and dad, they will be less likely to be confident to explore the world, go out and make their own connections, be successful later in life and so on without having some kind of intervention and learning tools later in life, which is much harder to do.

So secure attachment starts at home with mom and dad and how responsive mom and dad can be and then pours out into how well the kids feel like they can navigate their own lives and the world.

It also teaches them, I believe, how to interpret God their father, and how responsive God the father is to them as well.

Wow.

So I hear you saying that it's, it takes a lot of intentionality on the parents part.

That's maybe not necessarily something that parents drift into is secure.

Creating an environment where secure attachment.

It takes intentionality, focus.

And as you said earlier, when you move, when you're moving overseas, a lot of times your, your focus can in other places.

Right.

And, and understandably so you're learning a language, you're trying to get a house set up, you're trying to all those other things but just the, the focus for your kids.

And like kind of, I would say when you were talking, it's kind of like a safe home base.

You know, I mean you could always.

When I was a kid, it's like as long as I knew I could come home and it was safe there, it gave me that confidence that you mentioned to go out and explore other places if at least if I knew I was going to have at least one safe place to come back to.

As you said, give.

Gives you confidence to explore and see what's, what's out there.

One of the other things you talked about was craving familiar.

Craving familiar.

How can, how can that be.

What does that look like for families when it comes to craving familiar?

And how can parents help that?

And you say that actually the family can be that familiar, so you share more about it.

When you move abroad or when you get a new assignment, everything is unfamiliar.

Your medical systems that you relied on, your education systems, your family that used to have access to everything that you know is suddenly different and disrupted.

All those relationships other than the people who are moving with you are suddenly disrupted in a new way.

What I say is family is the familiar.

Mom and dad, you are the familiar now for those kids who have moved.

And so you become almost extra important.

You're always important.

You become extra important as they transition and as they begin to sink anchors into their new environment.

Along those lines, predictability and stability are really important.

Predictable parenting is really important.

A child needs to know, am I going to get in trouble for spilling the milk today, but tomorrow it's overlooked and it's fine.

And predictable parenting is really, really hard when you're stressed out and you're navigating a lot of new stuff yourself.

So one thing I talk a lot about is healthy parenting or healthy parenting often turns into healthy kids, which often is the launching pad for healthy ministry.

And when we get those mixed up, things get mixed up.

So for.

For people to become the familiar for their family.

Here's an example.

My mom was an amazing pioneer, lived out in a village.

She had to get, every three months, go to the capital city and get flour and sugar and everything for her family and homemake absolutely everything.

And I knew that we were always going to have breakfasts of homemade muffins or pancakes and coffee and cream for breakfast.

That became a sacred thing for me.

That meant connection.

That was a time that was very warm and loving and conversational in our family.

And so we did that everywhere we went.

And I chose to carry that tradition on with my kids.

Every Saturday was pancakes and coffee, no matter where we were.

And so that became kind of a familiar thing that we could count on that kept us being us no matter where we went.

And I'd love to know from you if your family had any, because I know you've moved around quite a bit as well.

We have.

So two things I think would be.

One was we had pizza nights on Fridays, which I think is probably common for families, but that's.

I made.

I made homemade pizza.

That was a big thing.

And then the other thing was we like holiday tradition.

So my wife made this Advent calendar with activities.

So wherever that Advent calendar Whether we were in the US whether we, wherever we were living or evacuated to or whatever, we had that Advent calendar with us.

And that was, that was a familiar thing that we would do as a family.

And it created some consistency wherever we were at.

So that those were some small things.

My wife was very intentional.

She's a tck.

So she has, you know, she understands that.

I don't think I, I really grasped it probably unfortunately until later on because I just didn't understand the, the importance of that stability that you're talking about and the predictability.

And so that predictability.

I say my role now as leading member care for the organization is, is to remove the predictable and barriers that cause missionaries to return home prematurely.

Discouraged, disillusioned, doubting and defeated.

Or defeated.

And I think that like you're saying that they are predictable, right?

They're predictable.

And if we can be predictable and they're also the things that cause missionaries to go home prematurely, they're also predictable also.

And so, and having, having that built into the family so our kids know and honestly it's good for mom and dad to know that there's some rhythms that, with the healthy rhythm rhythms that are in place.

So for sure.

So with this idea, you said early on to move overseas, it's pretty daunting.

You know, the first time we moved to France, we didn't have any kids.

And then, you know, the second time we went, we went from France to Burkina.

It was daunting just to think about all the details of it, diapers, what we were going to do with all that.

So what are one or two things that you can encourage parents, parents as they're moving overseas to face this daunting task of moving overseas and resettling somewhere else else?

Right.

It takes building history with a place.

And something I talk about in my book is turning unknowns into knowns.

When everything feels unfamiliar, things feel scary.

God made our brains to prioritize our survival.

Right.

And so we are supposed to be extra vigilant when we don't know how to interpret our surroundings.

Well, when you move somewhere new, let alone taking your precious children with you, everything is non interpretable at the beginning until you begin to build some fluency in that culture or in that place.

And so everything can feel to some people like a bit of a threat to their brain at least.

Even if they're not feeling it, their brain is constantly having to determine, is this a threat, is it not a threat, is it safe, is it not safe?

And it takes building experience to, to get there.

So how do you, how do you tackle this daunting task, turning the unknowns into the knowns.

That means getting out there and starting to let your brain interpret, oh, I see this over and over and over again.

I hear this sound over and over and over again and nothing bad has happened to me.

Therefore, that sound can go in the safe category.

Right.

You're building resilience by, by kind of that exposure.

At the same time, your brain also needs a break.

So get out there, start building that familiarity, start building that fluency.

And also recognize there are times to pull back, back, and maybe it's your Sabbath day or whatever, but there are times to just give your brain a chance to breathe and give your kids brain a chance to breathe where you're not having to interpret all that stuff constantly in the beginning as you're setting up your new familiars.

But, but we want, we want ourselves and we want our kids to be able to say, I can navigate this, I can do this.

Yeah.

And, and really one of the best ways to do that is actually get out there and do it, but do it safely.

Not throwing each other in the deep end, but.

But doing it safely and together.

Possible, I believe.

Yeah.

As you were talking about sounds, I've thought of the many places we've lived.

And you know, most of those had 10 roofs.

And so it.

You'd hear the popping at night, whether there was cooling of at night.

And you know, at least as the dad, the first few nights you're thinking, well, you know, is there somebody on the roof?

Is there?

We live place that had, you know, rats, this place infested with rats.

So all those things are going through your mind is.

So when you said those noises that are there, that, that brought back a lot of memories of some sleepless nights, at least in the beginning.

At least in the beginning, because you just don't know.

And as you said, it can be tiring and it can wear you down for sure.

So the, the one of the chapters you wrote about those last few weeks before the transition.

And so, you know, we.

I did this wrong like a few times.

And then finally I realized, you know, Aaron, if you want a different outcome, you got to change this.

And so each time we would transition, you know, I had an ideal plan, you know, the last few weeks, I'm going to do it a certain way, and I would fall into old habits.

So can you share some practical tips on how parents and kids, how they can do those last few weeks in an intentional, healthy way?

Yes.

How you Close down.

And how you say goodbye is often a strong indicator of how you're going to say hello in your next place.

And so planning for that, well, takes intentionality, but it also just takes knowing how do you do it?

And so in the simplest, simplest of terms, what I recommend is starting that closing down process early on when you need to purge things out of your home so you can sell your home.

Start that six month or a year ahead of time if possible.

If it's not possible, try and do that as much as you can while your kids are at school and the house isn't in upheaval all the time.

But really, I, I focus on those last few weeks because those last few weeks need to be protected for several reasons.

Your kids are saying goodbye to a lot of stuff, you're saying goodbye to a lot of stuff, and all that last minute stuff is starting to pack up in your schedule.

Like, oh, we don't have our visa yet and we're leaving in two weeks.

You know, these kinds of things that when it rains, it pours in those last few weeks.

And all your friends are starting to say, we're gonna have coffee one last time, let's get, I'll see you at that barbecue one last time.

So true.

So true.

Right, right.

And so what I recommend is your last three days in country or at home, block them off.

Pretend like you are leaving three days before you're actually leaving.

And those last three days, days are just for your family.

And that is a time when you can take your kids to their last favorite playground one last time.

That is a time when you are doing bedtime stories with those kids and you are really nourishing them in their goodbye and you're nourishing your family unit so that they will be well nourished when they arrive at their next place.

Which I, which I believe is just, it's good stewardship of our families.

We just don't always know how to do it right.

I, I, I believe that this is where things often go wrong, is that people end up getting very, very stressed out those last few weeks, which is going to happen.

But they haven't built in any protected time for their kids.

And so kids start either feeling like their needs don't matter or they start acting out, which is met with punishment.

Which means those last few weeks are an extremely dysregulated period of time.

Time.

And then we get to this new country and we're starting with stress all over again.

So, so that's what I, I really, I really Believe that blocking off those last few days is going to be important.

And guess what, a bunch of last minute stuff is going to come up then too.

But it gives you a chance to tell all your friends who are saying, hey, let's have coffee, you know, one last time.

You can say, okay, it's got to be these days before this.

And if they want to have it during those three days, it's a no.

Know, it's, I'm so sorry.

I wish I could have seen you one last time.

And, and I won't be able to.

But I've loved having you as a friend kind of thing, you know.

Yeah, I love it.

And, and having those boundaries in place makes a ton of sense.

I was a, I think the first few times we transitioned, I was too much of a people pleaser.

And so, and honestly, people I hadn't talked to in a year, you know, or hadn't talked to in three or four years, all of a sudden, you know, they, they wanted to spend.

And you know, I would give into it because it was easy, less friction.

But it, like you said, it ends up taking the bandwidth you really don't have.

And then the people that you love the most don't get the best from you because the bandwidth's taken by other places.

And they'll understand.

I mean, if they haven't seen you in three or four years, they'll understand, you know, I mean, and, but I, I didn't have somebody giving me the, the ability or the, you know, the courage that you're giving people to say, this is what I'm going to do and sticking to it.

And I think that's so important.

As you said, things will come up.

You know, there, there are definitely things will come up, but you're those things that come up added upon an already full schedule.

And so I love the intentionality of that.

And so thanks for giving us permission to put that in place.

So you shared some things that play into our fears and doubts when we have moved overseas.

What are some things that play into our fears and doubts when we're making that move overseas?

That is a really good question and something that doesn't get talked about about nearly enough, but things that play into our fears and doubts.

Usually those things really surface when we now suddenly feel vulnerable and the things that we didn't even know were our priorities.

Suddenly we just feel fear about them being taken away or being harmed or whatever.

And we hadn't ever really thought about those things before.

Here again, this is hard when we don't know how to interpret things as, is it safe?

Is it not safe?

But our fears and doubts also.

We are removed from our normal support network of people who would be speaking truth into us and anchoring us to Scripture and, you know, all that stuff.

And so our fears and doubts are really kind of laid bare and vulnerable, and we're not sure what to do with them in this environment.

And we've never had to walk this journey with the Lord before.

And our fears and doubts, doubts.

And it becomes such an important time to do that.

Take every thought captive and not just try to speak the opposite into it.

Not just try to say, oh, this is all going to be fine, but to really take every thought captive and hold it up to.

To truth and say, is this really.

Is there really as much reason for fear as I'm feeling right now?

Or can we just talk about how I'm feeling?

I don't know if that answers your question or other direction.

It does, it does.

So how can I.

So teammates and people that are receiving people coming, how can they be a safe place or maybe do you have any words of encouragement for those that they're receiving people?

How can they be a place where people can share maybe their fears and doubts?

Because I think we all have them and I think that's.

I surely have them.

Every time I've made a transition, you don't really know how it's going to go.

I have faith and trust in God.

It's not that I don't have faith and trust in God at the same time.

I also know that my humanness wants, you know, you want some predictability.

Right.

You want, is this going to be predictable?

Is this going to go the way I think it's going to go?

And you want some of that.

How can we be a safe place for people when they come to so they're able to express their fears and doubts without them being judgmental or, you know, there's.

Yeah.

Any thoughts on that?

Yeah.

Let's start about talking about what we shouldn't do.

Sure.

Which we always want to do, and that is to tell people, oh, I had it so much worse because when I moved here, this and this and this and we.

I didn't have even email back then.

Sure.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

So.

So when we.

When we talk about receiving people, well, we want to shepherd newbies, if I can call them that.

We want to shepherd people.

Well, when they've arrived and they've given everything to come and they're nervous and they want to Fit in.

And they.

They've been wearing that missionary hat for a long time at this point because of all the buildup to getting there.

We want to shepherd them through those fears and doubts while.

Well, and we want them to know that there is space here with this team and there's space with God for them to talk about those things without needing to be fixed and without needing to be one upped and without needing to be shut down.

So often I think we want to make the hard thing go away.

And also, we just don't have time to really deal with it.

We have limited bandwidth ourself.

And so we give these pat especially kind of spiritualized answers that actually, actually don't necessarily nourish the person or shepherd them.

Well, what we can do is just acknowledge that sounds really hard.

Yeah, that sounds really hard.

And I get that.

And.

And you feeling like that makes a lot of sense and not necessarily having to fix it, but just letting them know that you're here to listen and they can talk to you about anything and they can be messy and that is a.

Okay.

But we think we need an answer, and we don't always need an answer.

I think another thing is to have.

Have grace.

And I know that's easier said than done, but when I think about when my parents went to the field in the, you know, late late 80s, we did not have email back then.

We did.

We had no way to get a hold of anyone if there had been a family emergency and we were out in this village all on our own, things were hard.

In a sense, when you see new people coming to the field and they have access to all this amazing stuff and all these amazing podcasts and all the structures.

Structures, it can be easy to downplay the hardship that they're going through.

And it can be really helpful to.

To just acknowledge when someone's coming to you with something that sounds petty and small.

Acknowledge that is hard for them for a reason.

I don't understand the reason.

I don't agree with the reason.

But something's hard for them and just that is enough.

You know, I don't know if you have anything to add.

No, no, no.

That's a very good words.

And.

And I use the phrase a lot.

That's understandable.

Just because it helps me not want to fill in the gaps like you're saying with, well, that when I came or.

Because sometimes we can be uncomfortable when people share their fears and doubts, and so we want to fill the space.

And so just for me to say, you know, that's understandable and how can I walk with you as you go through this time?

But I do think, and as you said, I remember when we got to Burkina, you know, one of the older missionaries who actually was a mentor to me, you know, I was saying to him, you know, how hard it was.

And he said, you know, the transition for me, he said it was, I came from a farm and I can't.

Kind of when I moved to Burkina, it was like living on a farm again.

So he said that wasn't.

And he said I didn't.

He said, you know, it's.

You think that, you know, I had it a lot harder.

He said, but at the same time, I didn't want to get back on the boat to go home.

He said, you know, your biggest challenge is going to be is you can decide to leave, leave in the morning and have a plane ticket to leave at night, and you'll be gone.

And he said, there were times that I wanted to leave.

I just didn't want to get on a boat for 30 days.

And he said, so any.

It was just, it was, it was an older, seasoned missionary recognizing that in each time period or each season, there are challenges and there are, you know, there are benefits.

But instead of him telling me all the reasons, yes, that I had it easy and he had it hard, he balanced that scale out.

Out of.

Yeah, these were some, these were some more challenges I faced that you don't.

But these are some challenges that you face that I didn't.

And what it really did was just kind of flatten that.

And so it didn't become.

He was better than.

And he could have.

Right.

He's a, he's, he was, he was phenomenal.

He could have said, hey, I'm better than you.

But for a new guy, it just gave me.

And what it created was a safe place for me to go and talk with him, because I thought, he's not, he's not going to judge me.

He's going to, he listens to me and he would, you know, when I was, you know, had a bad attitude or something, he wasn't afraid to bring some alignment.

Alignment there.

But anyway, this, this as you were talking about that super depreciated him.

So one of the things I wanted to ask you today was about was safe people.

And I think sometimes I've seen in, in, in the missions life, families are getting to a place and they want their kids to integrate really quick.

And so, or maybe they, I shouldn't say everybody, you want your kids to get Involved for sometimes because parents think I got all this stuff to do.

I need my kids to find friends.

I needed do this.

And sometimes they don't have necessarily the skills and ability to understand who is safe and who is not safe.

And then their kids are put into places, unintentionally put into unsafe environments with people that maybe don't have the best intentions for their kids.

So what are.

Do you have any wisdom for families on how they can learn to figure out who in this community is safe and so that they can help shepherd, guide, guide in many ways protect their kids from people that maybe aren't looking for the out for the best interest of their kids.

So is that a fair question, Anna?

That's a very fair question.

And it is something that I, Yeah.

Have very strong feelings about.

Sure.

Because we see it a lot.

We see it a lot because several different reasons.

Right.

We join, let's say, a mission team and we believe these are all believers.

They all have their lives together.

They've all been vetted, therefore they're all safe people.

That's not necessarily true.

And I am not coming down on people who are on the field at all.

I'm a missionary myself.

I'm just saying, sure.

Don't just assume that everybody is safe because they share faith with you or because you are on a mission together.

Take, take a look at, you know, just.

Just be wise.

If your child doesn't want to spend time with someone, don't force that.

And the same is true with the community that we're joining.

We think, well, I want to get my K there and learning.

And like I said, we want to build fluency and we can push that.

We can push that hard, and we can end up putting our kids in positions where we didn't realize that the, the, the parameters of what constitutes as abuse in one culture doesn't constitute as abuse in another culture or in one school system versus another school system.

And a lot of hard lessons have been learned by generations past.

And we would do well to listen to those lessons.

Listen.

And by listening to those lessons, what we have found is that when you move somewhere new, gently break into these places together as a family.

Listen to your kids.

If they don't, I mean, we do need to challenge our kids, too.

But if they are really, really struggling to go to school or to go to Sunday school or something, be a little bit gentle with that timeline as you're setting up somewhere new and, and establishing somewhere new.

And listen, your gut, the Holy Spirit is our teacher, and sometimes he reveals things to us in ways that we don't fully understand.

But listen to your gut.

And, and yeah, but I'm glad you're bringing this up because I, I, I do work with a lot of adult third culture kids who learned these lessons the hard way because their parents were so maybe, I don't know if innocent is the right word, but so much believing that everybody is good that we work with and, and that's not necessarily true.

So yeah, I don't know if you have anything to add to that, but when we're looking at building safe people, we want to do that gently and well with our kids.

100.

And I would say naive.

That's what I was, you know, I was naive.

And you're doing what, you know, you're suggested that you do and you're trying to fit in as a parent, you know, and you are trying to make those things.

I don't, I've not met a parent yet so far in all these years.

I've not said that, hey, I want to put my kid in a bad situation where they get hurt.

I haven't met that parent yet.

At the same time, as you said, it's happened.

And, and we, if we, I do want to learn not throwing rocks at the past and not criticizing the past, but man, if we can't, if we can't learn from the past and learn from what was there, then I think we need to throw rocks at ourselves.

You know, I mean, because we shouldn't be able to learn from the past and not repeat it specifically that.

So for you shared about families specifically and individuals, leaders.

So leaders have a lot of influence on when families come to the field.

Are there ways that they can give space for families to not go super fast if they don't feel comfortable?

Or how can they walk with families when they have, as you said, they want to pay attention to their gut and not just, you know, move through that and then their kids end up.

So any words for wisdom on how leaders maybe can encourage families to give them space and time to create these safe places?

Yeah.

First of all, my, my deepest respect and empathy to leaders on the field because there is a fine balance between letting people gently make their own roots in a new place and also challenging them to get out there so that they can build that fluency so that they can begin to navig from a place of confidence and actually administer well instead of staying behind closed doors for 10 years.

And like, we've seen those stories too.

Yeah.

So my deepest respect to people in Leadership, because that's a tricky balance.

I believe, I believe that this is an opportunity for connection as well.

If you see a family who is struggling and they are too afraid to get out there and afraid for a long time to the point that it is interfering with daily life and their ability to, to integrate well, that's a great time to connect with them and to ask what else is going on for you here?

What are the fears that you're carrying?

Can we support you better?

Are there certain structures that we can put into place that would help you take small steps?

Yeah.

Into, into building, you know, connections in a way that will make you feel safe and so on.

And also if a family is pushing too hard, these are things that hopefully leadership has lived in the context long enough to be able to lead.

Well, I, I often see people put into leadership that don't fully know the context yet.

And that can be hard too.

But for example, I, I recently was working with a family through another company who was new to the field and they wanted to do language learning and they were going to do language learning for.

Or they were saying about 8 to 10 hours a day they were going to put their toddler in a local setting where no one spoke the toddler's language.

And we think all kids learn language quickly, so that is going to be fine.

But when there's no access to a safe person, very different cultural expectations for that many hours a day on the developing brain, that can cause damage long term, that can cause a lot of harm.

And so a leader should be able to step in and say, hey, maybe we're going a little too here.

And so how can we help you fulfill that excitement and feel like you're doing something while also shepherding, shepherding your family?

Well, I'm sure you've seen that kind of tricky balance that people have to.

It is, it's, as you mentioned, it's hard when a family's kid centric.

Right.

And they, they want to.

And at the same time they're there to establish the church.

And so I would, before I stepped into this role, I was a, an area leader.

So it was 17 countries.

So you had.

And it is a balance.

Right.

And you, you want, it's a, it's a way.

Wait.

And you're trying.

You.

We are there to establish the church and share the love of Christ with people.

And at the same time we, we want our families to have healthy environments.

And so how do you walk in that?

And it's there, there can be awkward conversations, but you know, that's why you're a leader.

You have to have to be able to engage in those awkward conversations and.

But I appreciate you giving a verbiage to it in common language so leaders can have those conversations and, and to help navigate those.

And obviously, you know, praying Psalms 32, 8.

Right.

Gu me in the way I should go.

Counsel me with your loving eyes upon me.

Just the discernment that we need when you're making those decisions.

And kudos to the family that was going to do a language eight to ten hours a day.

My, my, my brain would explode with that.

So I could, I could I have too much?

Yeah, too much.

I couldn't do that.

So I'm, I'm, I'm envious that they could do that.

I just, I just couldn't.

So.

Last question I have for you and then I'm going to ask you to pray for us so you share about education.

Education and education is one of the number one reasons that families return home.

What are some reasons this happens and how can families prepare for education when they made a transition?

Yes, and I would follow that up with.

Historically, education has been a number one reason.

It continues to be a high reason, but misaligned expectations has definitely risen more to the top.

Okay.

Um, but, but in terms of education, a lot of people who grew up in their home culture and then moved somewhere new, they've never had to think about what schooling is going to look like.

Perhaps they had access to the public education system, the public school system in the US or in their country of origin and they've just never had to think about it.

So they may go abroad and just assume my kids will just, they, they never thought about it.

So they'll just, my kids will just go to the local school system and that can work in.

Out.

It also can have the hardest outcomes for kids as we've seen in our research, when it's not handled well.

And so they may also not be prepared for how much an international school costs.

So a lot of this is stuff that should be coming up in pre field training and also there's a limited amount of time in pre field training and resources.

And so these are questions that can accidentally not be covered.

What we say at TCK training is that there should be a, a solid plan A for education for each child.

Don't assume every.

Everybody's going to be fine in the same system and there should be a viable solid plan B because if plan A doesn't work out, not having a plan B before you go can throw A family into disruption for a very long period of time and their teaching teammates and their ministry and their kids.

So having a solid plan B.

If plan B means online schooling, do you have access to adequate WI fi to do that?

You know, these are things that both sending companies and parents can be thinking about.

Yeah, I, I know, I know a few families went abroad when they didn't have kids, and then suddenly they had kids over there.

So they never, they never had that conversation with their sending organization because it never came up.

Right.

Yeah, it's true.

So, yeah.

So if people are feeling lost and they want to do this, there's.

There are two companies that I can recommend for education consulting that is Share capital letters Share.

Okay.

And capital, all capital letters pace, P, A, C, E. Those are both work with TCK families and expat families and, and can offer those types of recommendations.

Yeah, so true.

And navigated them as a family.

We had, we went, as you said, with a plan A, and, and then we had to, we had to quickly.

And it is a challenge.

And as you said, I grew up, you know, it wasn't an option.

I just went to the public schools and that's the way it was and that's the way our family did it.

But then you're overseas and you're trying to make decisions, and people in the, they've heard me say on the podcast, Dr. Dobbins said somewhere, you know, parents are as happy as their unhappiest child.

And so if your kids are not doing well in school, it's really hard to have, be engaged in ministry.

It's really hard to engage in language, whatever you're going to do, because you're empathetic for your kids.

Child.

And if, you know they're going to school every day or they're struggling educationally, it's, it's hard not to.

And you want them to do well at the same time.

It's, it's, it's not easy.

And man, there's a lot of decisions to be made and I'm glad that my decisions are behind me so there at least for my kids.

So they're, they're, they're behind, they're behind me, so they're.

My kids are.

My kids are in college as well, so I feel the same.

But if you read my book, you will see we did everything from homeschool to online school to local, local schools, too.

We never did the international school thing, public schools, private school.

Like, we did it all and, and we took it one year at a time.

One kid at a time.

So they weren't always necessarily in the same system either.

Yeah, no.

And I love that.

I love the reality of.

And each kid's different.

Right.

And so what might work for one child might not work for the next.

And for parents to have agency to be able to say, this works for me, that one child doesn't work for the others, and the understanding that it doesn't have to be cookie cutter, and there's flexibility in that, I think is.

Is.

Is super important.

So, been an honor to spend some time with you today.

Will you pray for us?

Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Heavenly Father.

I thank you that you are a God who invites us to steward both ministry and family.

Well, I thank you for these types of conversations that are really a great effort in addressing the ambiguity, the uncertainty that come with the life that you've been invited us to, of reaching the lost, of going to difficult places, but then also shepherding our families well in those places.

And, Lord, this is something that you can equip us to do and you have equipped us to do.

And so, Lord, I just pray for every listener who's listening to this.

I pray that their burdens would be ones that you would carry with them.

I pray their burdens would be ones that they remember, are.

Are seen and noted and recorded by you, as we see in the book of Revelation, that you do not forget the prayers of the saints.

And so, Lord, I pray that you would also provide for these families who are seeking wisdom, that your Holy Spirit would be at work, being their guide, being their discerning voice, and helping them to shepherd both family and ministry.

Well, I thank you for this podcast.

I thank you for Aaron and his family, for how they've ministered both on the field and now in.

In all kinds of different ways.

And I just.

Yeah, I. I thank you for the work that you've called us to do and that you've given us people to do it together with, and we give you all the glory for that.

In your name I pray.

Amen.

Amen.