Canada’s housing crisis is dominating the news, but we rarely hear about the work happening behind the scenes to fix it. There are housing advocates, developers, and politicians right here in Unama'ki - Cape Breton who are making tangible progress towards solutions. 

In this episode, guests from the Nova Scotia Association of Realtors (NSAR), Doucet Developments, and By the Bay Properties offer insights on:

• The current state of Cape Breton’s housing market and a prediction for the next five years;
• Why developers might not build, even when demand for housing is high;
• Doucet Developments’ plans for their residential and commercial project on Sydney’s waterfront;
• The development opportunities on Charlotte Street, in Glace Bay, and elsewhere in CBRM;
• How By the Bay Properties is building affordable housing;
• What local governments and stakeholders can do to facilitate more housing development.

Roger Boutilier is the CEO of the Nova Scotia Association of Realtors (NSAR), a member-based organization that represents Realtors across Nova Scotia.

Doug Doucet is the CEO of Doucet Developments, a vertically integrated group of companies that span across real estate development, construction services, property management, leasing, maintenance, and retail and hospitality. Darla Gaudette is responsible for business development for the group of companies.

• Doucet Developments website: doucetdevelopments.ca
• Edgewater website: atedgewater.ca

Bobby Dubeau is the President and Mario Vetro is the Co-Founder of By the Bay Properties, a Vancouver-based company that builds, improves, and manages commercial and residential real estate properties from coast to coast.

• By the Bay website: bythebayproperties.ca
• Affordable housing waitlist: bythebayproperties.ca/waitlist

This episode is sponsored by the Construction Association of Nova Scotia (CANS) and Doucet Developments.

About the Invest in Cape Breton podcast

Unama'ki-Cape Breton is on the cusp of an economic renaissance. Invest in Cape Breton is a podcast that will challenge your assumptions about the island’s economy through in-depth interviews with local changemakers. We go beyond the headlines to reveal the untapped potential for investors and entrepreneurs, and offer a preview of the island’s coming transformation. Right from the first episode, we’ll show you why there's never been a better time to invest in Cape Breton.

This podcast is an initiative of the Cape Breton Partnership. It is hosted by Michelle Samson and produced by Storied Places Media. The theme music is "Under My Skin" by Elyse Aeryn.

It's an exciting time to be in Unama'ki- Cape Breton.

2

We're having an economic Renaissance.

3

Roger: There are a lot of good things

going on and that doesn't get reported

4

Michelle: Throughout the series we'll

show you why there's never been a

5

better time to invest in Cape Breton.

6

Mario Vetro: especially in

a place, like Glace Bay.

7

we see a massive opportunity

8

Michelle: Welcome back

to invest in Cape Breton.

9

I'm your host, Michelle Samson.

10

So far in this series, we've been

talking to community and business leaders

11

about initiatives that are lifting

K Britain's economy to new Heights.

12

This episode is a bit different.

13

This time, we're leaning into a

challenge that exists, not just here

14

on the island, but across Canada.

15

Going deep on the very hot topic

of housing and development.

16

The housing crisis is making

day-to-day life incredibly

17

challenging for many people.

18

The news is dominated by their stories.

19

But what we hear less about is the work

happening behind the scenes to fix it.

20

There are housing advocates, developers,

and politicians right here in

21

Unama'ki - cape Breton who are making

tangible progress towards solutions.

22

I'm not just talking about paper pushing,

which is an important part of the process.

23

I'm talking about shovels in the

ground to build more housing.

24

Yes, affordable housing too.

25

In this fourth episode of invest

in Cape Breton, we're going to hear

26

from a real estate insider, who

will give us the lay of the land.

27

We'll also hear from two developers,

do set developments and by the bay

28

properties about what they're doing to

address the crisis, what they're building,

29

when the units might be available.

30

And what they think can be done to help

developers build even more housing.

31

Thank you to our sponsors for this

episode, the construction association

32

of Nova Scotia and do set developments.

33

Let's start with some broad context.

34

Our first guest is Roger Boutilier.

35

The CEO of the Nova Scotia

association of realtors.

36

N S a R represents realtors across

Nova Scotia and their mandate includes

37

doing research on the housing market.

38

I asked Roger to explain

how we got into this mess.

39

Roger: during the pandemic,

uh, the housing market took

40

off like a rocket ship.

41

And there were a number

of reasons for that.

42

Nova Scotia is no longer the best kept

secret in the world, quite honestly,

43

like people have discovered Nova Scotia

and that's great, um, and then we've,

44

we've had interest rates at or near zero.

45

So, borrowing money was almost free.

46

um, but the housing market right now,

I mean, it, it, it is subdued, compared

47

to the last three years, um, sales

are down, Nova Scotia year to date.

48

So we're talking to the end of

November, uh, down approximately 17.

49

6%.

50

But the interesting thing

is the prices are up by 2.

51

5%.

52

And in Cape Breton specifically,

uh, the housing market is down

53

21 percent year over year.

54

And the housing prices are actually up 6.

55

6 percent So even though, uh,

sales are down, the prices are up

56

and that's simply because there's,

there's a lack of inventory.

57

Michelle: so specifically for that

inventory, what has contributed to that?

58

Roger: Yeah.

59

There's, there's no one single source.

60

Um, there's a whole bunch

of, I guess, factors.

61

That have contributed to this, for lack

of a better term, perfect storm, right now

62

in the housing industry and in Canada, not

just Nova Scotia, you know, for the last

63

25 years in the province of Nova Scotia.

64

And we had virtually no.

65

Development in social housing.

66

We had no development in senior housing.

67

those are 2 contributing factors and

we're, we're going back 25 years.

68

So, yes, there was some development,

but it was very, very minimal.

69

Um, and then we had a population boom.

70

I mean, we, we surpassed a million.

71

For the 1st time in Nova Scotia's history.

72

The population continues to

come in and the government has a

73

lofty goal of, uh, increasing the

74

So you have all these people coming

in at a time when, on, or there wasn't

75

a lot of housing development going on

76

.

And then, you know, for the last 20 years, the development that we did

77

have was more on the single family

home side rather than developing, um,

78

the, what I'll call the missing middle.

79

So your, your townhouses, your row

houses, starter homes, that, that sort

80

of thing, the development was on, you own

an acre of land and you build a big home.

81

And that was the development.

82

Those take time.

83

So there wasn't a lot of, uh,

density development, So all

84

those factors contribute to

the crisis that we see today.

85

And, and it's not just Nova Scotia.

86

These are issues felt across the country.

87

Michelle: So is this a problem

across, all pricing ranges?

88

Roger: The simple, simplistic

answer to that question is yes.

89

some portions of the spectrum are hit

harder than others, but I would say

90

there is a lack of inventory across the

whole housing spectrum in Nova Scotia.

91

Most specifically though, in the, I

guess social housing and lower income

92

housing, and the senior housing as

well, because a lot of folks, That have

93

reached retirement or aging in home now,

rather than moving to, senior housing.

94

And I don't mean a nursing home or

anything like that, but we don't

95

have any retirement communities.

96

We're starting to get them but that

was a part of the spectrum that.

97

been missing.

98

They're, they're forced to age in

home and now they're stuck in a home

99

quite frankly is much too large for

them, but they have nowhere to go.

100

Michelle: So a population, boom, combined

with a quarter century of building almost

101

no social or senior housing, minimal row

homes, townhomes and starter homes, and

102

too many big single detached homes have

created a supply and demand problem.

103

It is not a good recipe for anyone

who needs to buy a house right now.

104

What are the realtors Hearing from these

people who are looking to buy here.

105

Roger: the mood is not great.

106

Let's be honest.

107

Um, you have a whole bunch of,

Factors contributing to that.

108

You have the low inventory, You have

the higher interest rates, but we're

109

also coming off an error where the

interest rates were at an all time low.

110

and the interest rate

increases happened quickly.

111

So we had 3 or 4 interest rate, um,

112

know, you get a mortgage for, you know,

2 percent or lower to now, you know,

113

I think you, if you're lucky, you can

get one below 6%, but that was quite a

114

jump, And then of course, with the higher

prices requires a higher down payment.

115

It's not like it was in Nova Scotia

10 years ago, where if you wanted to

116

buy a home, you simply called your

realtor and boom, you had a home.

117

Those days are gone and we probably won't

see them again for a number of years, um,

118

because there is no one silver bullet.

119

So we are hearing from, from home

buyers that, it is a challenge,

120

uh, now to find a home, but that's

the beauty of using a REALTOR.

121

They know the mortgage

people, the inspectors.

122

All of the professionals that are related

to the real estate industry, and they

123

can help set expectations as well.

124

HGTV doesn't do us any favors.

125

I think sometimes the consumer's

reality is somewhat misaligned with the

126

reality of what's actually available,

127

Michelle: how long is it taking

for someone to find a house now?

128

Roger: Well, you know, that,

it depends, and I'm not trying

129

to be on the fence with this.

130

It depends the price point.

131

It depends on what

community you're looking in.

132

It depends on, you know, how much

they have for a down payment.

133

Um,

134

if you're looking for a home that's

600, 000 plus, they're staying on

135

the market longer, than the homes

that are priced 350 and below.

136

Michelle: fair enough.

137

I'm gonna ask you to look into the

crystal ball a little bit barring any

138

Surprise economic or political changes.

139

What do you expect the market

to do in the next few years?

140

Roger: this is purely, I would say

well informed speculation, So the

141

interest rates are expected to come down.

142

So that will ease the burden uh,

with regards to mortgage payments,

143

CMHC just released a stat.

144

That Nova Scotia has the most.

145

new development in the country.

146

So we're leading the way with

regards to that, which is fantastic.

147

the beauty of this is it's not

just one piece of the spectrum

148

that's coming on board right now.

149

There's developments when rentals

there's development in social

150

housing, there's development.

151

In senior housing So once this

starts to come on board, it's going

152

to free up those that are aging in

place right now or aging at home.

153

They'll have a place to go, which in

turn puts that old new stock, right?

154

Um, so it's not just new stock.

155

but we all know you can't build

a home or multi unit overnight.

156

So we're talking years here now.

157

not 2024.

158

I'm looking 2026, 2027 and beyond

but when that inventory comes to

159

market, it will help ease the burden.

160

so I, I do believe within the next

three to five years, you're going

161

to see that the housing market

stabilize, hopefully knock on wood, the

162

interest rates will stabilize as well

163

Michelle: and what about

the actual housing prices?

164

Like, the prices went up

much, during the pandemic.

165

You know, there was a time when, here in

Cape Breton, it wasn't all that unusual

166

to be able to find a home, not just a

piece of land for under 100, 000, are

167

the prices going to come down at all?

168

Are we ever going to see that

169

Roger: I would say unequivocally

those days are gone.

170

Nova Scotia was undervalued for so

long, for fun one day I did a tour

171

of, um, a development here in Halifax

and it was on the water and it was

172

a condo and I took a look and it was

priced at, now we're going back a

173

number of years now, but it was priced

at, uh, 499, 000, just under 500, 000.

174

You could have took that same condo

and put it in Montreal, Toronto,

175

Vancouver, Calgary, and got double

or triple what they were offering.

176

And it's the same condo, it's

on the waterfront, it's in Nova

177

Scotia, it was undervalued.

178

And right now I think there was a Uh, a

value correction, not a price correction,

179

but a value correction, and the pandemic

amplified that because we were on our way.

180

Prices were edging up in 2018, 2019

and then the pandemic hit and there's

181

a lot of factors in that as well.

182

Quite frankly, I would put our quality

of life up against any other provinces

183

just in terms of what we have to offer.

184

So long winded answer to your question.

185

I do not see the days of buying

a home for less than 200,

186

000 and that being the norm.

187

Those days are gone.

188

will they come down?

189

I mean, there's going to be ebbs and

flows, but they will be in the normal

190

2 to 3%, not the 2040, you know, 60

percent appreciation we were seeing.

191

Michelle: All right.

192

So Rogers well-informed speculation is

that prices will not be crashing down.

193

But for buyers, it is good news that at

least they won't be going up as much.

194

As he mentioned earlier, one factor that

will ease the burden on prices and give

195

home buyers and renters more options.

196

Is the fact that housing

construction is happening.

197

Up next.

198

We'll hear from the developer

behind a major waterfront

199

development in downtown Sydney.

200

First, a message from one of our sponsors.

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The construction association of Nova

Scotia, CANS is proud to be a voice for

202

the construction industry representing

members throughout Cape Breton.

203

They're more than just builders.

204

They're a community.

205

CANS' strong relationship with CBRM

and the province means that you

206

have an advocate in your corner.

207

Cans offers award-winning industry

training, numerous networking

208

opportunities throughout the

year, and exclusive discounts on

209

services that support your business.

210

Their association works tirelessly

to create opportunities for members

211

to come together, discuss, share

challenges, and celebrate victories.

212

Be part of a network that goes beyond

construction sites, a community that

213

supports you every step of the way.

214

Together let's build a brighter

future for Cape Breton.

215

Visit their website@cansdotns.ca.

216

To learn how they can be a foundation

for your growth support, lasting

217

connections, and build strong communities.

218

Michelle: Back in 2020 to the

Cape Breton regional municipality

219

issued a call for proposals to

develop a prime piece of property

220

at owned on the Sydney waterfront.

221

The winning proposal was

by Doucet Developments.

222

This Bedford based family of companies

does everything from development

223

to and construction, to property

management, leasing, and maintenance.

224

There's a local connection here.

225

Doug Doucet, the company's founder

and CEO, grew up in Westmount.

226

We'll talk some more about that later.

227

Before getting into the details

of the waterfront project.

228

I asked him and Darla Gaudette,

who does business development

229

for the group of companies.

230

For their take on the housing market.

231

Here's how Darla would

describe it, followed by Doug.

232

Darla: Chaotic is the

word that I would use.

233

It's a crisis for the folks

that don't have accessible

234

housing or affordable housing.

235

It's a crisis for the

builders and the developers.

236

So it sort of creates some

degree of chaos, I would think.

237

Everyone's pointing a finger at one

another and this person and that person.

238

But, uh, really we're just trying all

to, come up with a solution that works.

239

Doug: Yeah, I've been to a bunch

of real estate forum recently

240

and I've heard, desperate I've

heard crisis is a common one.

241

So I think all of the words describe it.

242

So, I think on the head.

243

We've gotta talk more about innovation

and solutions rather than the problem

244

Michelle: what would you

define as the problem

245

Doug: if you consider the factors

in the problem, the factors

246

is lack of housing and why.

247

Specifically in Nova

Scotia and Cape Breton.

248

We haven't seen this type of

immigration numbers that we're seeing

249

now over the last couple of years.

250

So that's a big one.

251

And then I think just a, a building boom

in general, Sydney's not seeing a bill.

252

Boom.

253

All the years that I can remember.

254

So prosperity with prosperity

comes people and they need to move.

255

Michelle: In conversations about

how to fix the housing crisis.

256

Some fingers point at developers and

say they simply need to build more.

257

I gave Doug and Darla an opportunity

to explain why they might not build.

258

Even when demand is so high.

259

Doug: it's a real simple formula.

260

As a developer, this is the

best way they can describe the

261

development and how we work.

262

It's cost of construction

versus cost of rent.

263

So, you know, what does it

cost me to build the product

264

and what can I get for rent?

265

So in the case of Sydney, unfortunately

the cost of construction is more

266

from, from the history of, of unions

and, and all that kind of stuff.

267

And it's just the reality of doing

business here is a little bit

268

more, we're on an island we're hard

to get to, and that's a reality.

269

Cost of rent is traditionally less than

you would attain in cities like Halifax.

270

So.

271

When you look at a developer, um, they

may tend to shy away from Cape Breton

272

because, hey, it's gonna cost me more

and it's gonna be harder to get the rent

273

and the margins are gonna be really thin.

274

As much, as much as I hate to say

it, that is a sincere problem and

275

we have to find a solution for that.

276

And

277

Darla: just to broaden a little bit,

uh, more, not just Cape Brighton

278

focus, but in Nova Scotia, there's

279

You know, the labor market

right now is not great.

280

Um, cost, cost of everything.

281

Supply chain, um, cost of materials.

282

Uh, so those are all factors that

really are hard on the builders

283

and the developers that are really

trying to make these solutions,

284

happen and happen quickly.

285

Michelle: All of these factors, from

the cost of labor and materials,

286

to the availability of labor and

materials, and the expected rents

287

shrank the pool of developers bidding

for the Sydney waterfront project.

288

Does that development's hesitated

too, but Doug decided this

289

project was about more than money.

290

Doug: The RFP was out and, somebody

had sent it off to me and said, Doug,

291

you know, being from Cape Breton,

you should really look at this.

292

And I made a few calls from some

developers around the city in Halifax

293

and said, Hey, are you looking at this?

294

Hey, are you looking?

295

Nope, nobody was touching it.

296

We've got more than

enough work in Halifax.

297

We don't need to kind of go

to Sydney to look for work.

298

So I said, you know what?

299

I'm from Westbound.

300

I have to look at this.

301

Darla: This is a hundred percent the

perfect project for Doug Doucette.

302

he is from Cape Breton.

303

His family's from Cape Breton.

304

He takes risks.

305

He's a smart businessman.

306

It's a legacy project.

307

Michelle: Could you guys speak a little

bit more to that consideration of

308

the higher cost and the lower return?

309

You know, how did that

factor into this decision?

310

Doug: I'll go on record to say

this will be the riskiest project

311

that developments or, or I have

been involved in for those reasons.

312

The labor, uh, right now, if, you

know, if you went to get labor

313

in Cape Bre, it's gonna be very

hard to find labor interest rates.

314

We didn't talk about interest rates.

315

They're on top of that again.

316

So risk is one factor.

317

However, there's always a

number of different ways.

318

you know, when, uh, Douglas McClean,

who's gonna lead this project locally in

319

Sydney, when I went to him to, uh, ask

him to join our team, I said, this will be

320

one of the toughest projects you ever do.

321

We're gonna have to beat

it seven ways from Sunday.

322

We're gonna have to, to be innovative.

323

To get the number where it needs to be and

still achieve the goal of what we want,

324

you know, premium, waterfront living.

325

Um, it is one of the best properties

that I know of outside of Halifax.

326

I mean, the, it's a gorgeous waterfront

property and it deserves what we're

327

gonna do there, and gonna be a real

tough road getting to the end result,

328

but we're up for the challenge.

329

Michelle: And have you come up with

any innovative solutions or are you

330

able to speak to, um, how you're

gonna get creative to make this work?

331

Doug: Well, as an example, we started

as a concrete building and we couldn't

332

go very far in the concrete building

because we couldn't even get someone

333

to return our calls a little alone,

see if they'd come to Sydney and and do

334

form work on a two 10 story buildings.

335

Now that said, there is a

contractor starting to do

336

that kind of work at Sydney.

337

So we're talking to them and seeing

if we can work with them to maybe get

338

out of the ground with some concrete.

339

We gonna change the of construction steel,

so we'll go original steel structure.

340

Um, which we, there are two very

qualified steel contractors in

341

Citi that could help us out.

342

That relationship with steel

is kind of in our blood.

343

Makes for a great story and if, if we

finish the budget on steel and that

344

doesn't work, we'll have to look at

another form of construction, but we we're

345

looking at every type of construction.

346

We're looking at bringing in,

you know, materials on the

347

water that can be delivered.

348

We have a lot of room, a lot of land

there, so if we can as an example,

349

a precast concrete panel could

come from an Irving plant in St.

350

John on a boat.

351

To might need, you know,

two tractor trailer loads.

352

We're just at that stage now

with our budgets to see where

353

we have to be innovative.

354

Um, but we're gonna be considerably

smaller units than Sydney's used to.

355

Um, again, to get the

cost per square foot down.

356

Um, so there's gonna be lot things that

come into play as how we're industry.

357

A lot.

358

Innovation.

359

but it's hard to be innovative

when you're trying to

360

deliver a premium product.

361

It's hard to give people you know,

waterfront, living at a luxury level

362

when you're trying to save money.

363

So That's also a challenge..

364

Michelle: I'd love to hear more about

the, the vision, like how many buildings,

365

how many units, you know, what's, uh,

what do you guys got planned for this?

366

Doug: So it's a, it's a two or

possibly three phase project.

367

The first phase is, is a.

368

Residential unit coming out

about, what they call is a podium,

369

which is a huge concrete garage

with two levels of parking.

370

will have a total of 400 parking

spots of complete residential

371

tower with rooftop patio access.

372

The second tower will be.

373

More of a mixed living.

374

We will have a combination of, uh,

commercial retail on the ground floor

375

of both buildings, and then we'll have

office space combined with residential

376

living, possibly condominiums.

377

We haven't, we've been all rentals

today, but we may consider condominiums,

378

um, and we will be, we'll be a

pathway to the, the waterfront.

379

We believe that we are a draw

to the waterfront, both from the

380

waterfront up to our services.

381

From our services down to the waterfront.

382

So, um, we're gonna have a very

appealing entryway from the actual

383

boardwalk up to our first level.

384

On our first level, we'll be a number

of mixed, uh, retail commercial uses,

385

restaurant coffee shop retailers.

386

Um, we'll have a center courtyard

in between the two buildings.

387

And, um, my vision is to have

call it center and it'll be a

388

community engaged area where.

389

On certain Saturdays or Sundays, we

may close off the parking and You'd

390

be able to come in there for a concert

park somewhere, walk down, and we'll

391

have a band playing on the, at the end

of the concourse overlooking the water.

392

So imagine the sunset coming down a

local great band, and 800 people enjoying

393

a mid-afternoon concert, or could be

buskers, or could be lighting of a

394

Christmas tree and then I remember when

my grandfather was, uh, owned a company

395

called JAW Rudder, which was a fairly big

mechanical company in Sydney, and their

396

office was in Whitney Pier it was like

selling tickets because they had the big

397

glass window and you could watch the Santa

Claus party through the glass window.

398

And everybody used to love to get outta

the cold and watch the Santa Claus parade.

399

So it's kind the same idea concept.

400

We're really engaging the

community, which I think something

401

that's really important.

402

Michelle: Yeah.

403

And as far as that community engagement,

did I read that there's going to be more

404

opportunities for feedback and input

about like what kinds of, services or,

405

or amenities that they'd like to see?

406

Doug: We'll continue, have focus groups.

407

We're gonna plan to come down through

the winter and um, uh, we're probably

408

gonna coordinate at least two focus

groups with a community command and

409

tell us what's important to them.

410

And we've met every industry in Cape

Brett, and I think we've had, or almost

411

200 different people that we've met to

Everything from lobbyists to Industry

412

groups, uh, to the partnerships, to

the Chamber, to, you know, downtown

413

Sydney, uh, the Port Authority.

414

We've, we've met every single

person we think that might

415

be interested in the project.

416

And we're listening, and I

know it's incredibly important

417

that we gotta get this right.

418

It's not a case in Sydney.

419

We don't have the luxury of.

420

Sometimes in Toronto or Vancouver,

or even Halifax as of late, you

421

can build it and they will come.

422

But we're, we're trying to do

something here with a population of

423

30,000 people on an island who hasn't

seen prosperity in a long time.

424

And, uh, we got one

chance to get this right.

425

Michelle: Darla says the folks working

on the development really are reading

426

all of the feedback forums and working

to make sure that this project has

427

a positive impact on the residents,

visitors, and workers of downtown Sydney.

428

She also wanted to highlight that

Doucette developments is a good employer.

429

That's creating opportunities for all.

430

Darla: I'm a woman in the construction

and development industry, and

431

this team is giving me any

opportunity that I could ever want.

432

we're, quite diversified here.

433

Um, I.

434

We have women who are trades.

435

We have women who are estimators,

project managers, um, lead designers.

436

We have all kinds of great

people working on our team.

437

And so we're doing our very

best and we wanna see success

438

Michelle: In December, 2023,

Doucet developments revealed

439

the name of the project.

440

Edge water.

441

And launched a website.

442

"At" edgewater.com.

443

The patches spelled out, not the symbol.

444

We'll put the link in the show notes.

445

On this website, you can see

renderings of what the development

446

will potentially look like.

447

Read FAQ's with hot button

questions like parking.

448

And find links to residential

and commercial inquiry forums.

449

So getting back to the core topic of

this episode, how does this luxury

450

project mitigate the housing crisis?

451

Well phase one, we'll add 166 units

to Sidney's inventory of housing.

452

The considerable number

when inventory is limited.

453

Since Darla expects that most

of the occupants will be locals.

454

They're also expecting a ripple effect.

455

Darla: the folks from CBU, all of the new

doctors, the nurses, the administrative

456

staff, perhaps some couples that are

retiring, or some folks that are just

457

looking to downsize their spaces.

458

So what they're gonna be

doing is relocating to these

459

premium luxury, quarters.

460

And so from there, their existing

dwellings or their existing houses,

461

apartments are going to then free up so

that the folks that are really looking for

462

that, affordable housing component, um,

to be able to also relocate though we're

463

not maybe building uh, affordable housing

complex, we are creating the opportunity

464

for folks to live in more affordable.

465

places

466

Michelle: so the timeline

looking like for the project?

467

Doug: we're under design

for the first phase.

468

we hope to uh, get all

our consultants on board.

469

We're doing a bunch of testing and we're

really a bookend of the community college.

470

So we're gonna go through the

same trials and tribulations

471

that they've gone through.

472

Um, but we should be in the

473

Um, the project, the first

phase is a three year build

474

up between the two buildings.

475

Theoretically, you typically

get in the first building

476

quicker than the second one.

477

That's the way we.

478

Assist with your financing.

479

And again, the innovation of

this will be to start collecting

480

cash flow before we're complete.

481

Um, but uh, the second phase,

which I didn't speak to yet.

482

Second phase could be an

additional three to five years.

483

We got some really cool ideas and

concepts we are presently having

484

a d couple of different studies

done to see if our concepts.

485

Could be adopted in Cape Breton,

so I can't wait to share those,

486

but they're gonna be very exciting.

487

Phase two could be a

real, real exciting piece.

488

Michelle: If higher end accommodations

are in your budget Pricing for

489

the rentals and phase one will

range from about $2 a square foot.

490

Up to three 50, a square foot.

491

And FYI, the Atwater development.

492

Isn't the only project Doucet

developments is working on in CBRM.

493

They bought a 35 acre parcel behind

the Benz bread facility on George

494

street that they're hoping to extend

into some residential communities.

495

They're also looking at Charlotte street.

496

Downtown Sydney's recently

reconstructed commercial drag is

497

already revitalizing and it's poised

to get a lot more foot traffic.

498

Once the new Nova Scotia

community college waterfront

499

campus opens in September, 2024.

500

And once his Edgewater development

is occupied in a few years.

501

Doug.

502

Thanks.

503

Charlotte street is a huge opportunity.

504

But smaller landowners and developers

might need help to make something happen.

505

Doug: There's two or three projects

all around the Charlotte Street

506

area that have talked to me about.

507

They just and they just don't

know how to deal with this.

508

Like, if you're just a developer who

has a piece of land, all this other

509

stuff gets really scary when you start

talking financing and construction

510

and leasing and commercial leases

and, you know, so, so we're, that's

511

probably our innovation and itself is

that we have all those under one roof.

512

But if you're just a standalone developer,

it's really, really hard to get your head

513

around and sometimes it's just easier to

say, you know what, I'm not gonna do it.

514

We need to get out in front of that.

515

Michelle: what's your advice to

those developers or, you know,

516

are there any opportunities bring

these projects over that hump.

517

Doug: talking to somebody like myself,

I'm the most, you know, transparent

518

and easy to get in touch with guys.

519

So, hey, reach out and talk to me.

520

even though we have all

the parts and pieces.

521

To do so much as a developer.

522

We also can single out

to any one of those.

523

So, you know, we can provide construction

services to help you as a developer.

524

We can provide leasing services

to help you as a developer.

525

We can provide, you know, property

management after you're done to help you.

526

So, so I always say, you know, do some

developments can be as involved or

527

as not involved as you need us to be.

528

Darla: Absolutely.

529

I think that that's

important to mention as well.

530

It might sound like it's big and scary

to engage with a developer, but to Doug's

531

point, um, we can give you as much or

as little as You need or you're looking

532

for, and you may not know what you need.

533

the team is very approachable.

534

We're interested and encouraging of

change, so we want to help, right?

535

So if you have a question

pick up the phone and call.

536

Michelle: Doug and Darla also think

there's a role for government to

537

help move these projects along.

538

We'll get into that towards the end

of the episode, when all of our guests

539

offer solutions to the housing crisis.

540

But first a message from Doucette

developments who sponsorship helped

541

make this deep dive on housing and

development in Cape Breton possible.

542

Doucette developments with over 25

years of experience, has earned its

543

reputation as a respected development and

construction partner in Atlantic Canada.

544

Their expertise spans real

estate, construction, property

545

management, leasing, maintenance,

and hospitality and retail sectors.

546

They focus on innovation and leveraging

their extensive knowledge to streamline

547

and enhance the client experience.

548

Doucette is the umbrella company

for various subsidiaries,

549

including RCS construction.

550

Millwright woodworking.

551

Tier two developments.

552

PM co Inc.

553

PM co brokerage, and hero hospitality.

554

This includes partnerships with entities

like Glen Arbor, Microtel Antigonish

555

and Summerside, Gabriel pizza.

556

Harvest, and others, Highlighting

their diverse portfolio.

557

The company, prioritizes building

relationships and nurturing

558

careers, teams, and communities.

559

They have a strong presence in

markets from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia to

560

Cornerbrook Newfoundland and Labrador.

561

Known for their ability to

identify and capitalize on

562

emerging market opportunities.

563

They're family values and commitment

to creating inspiring communities

564

are central to their approach.

565

Do you set developments is excited to

be working with the CBRM and other local

566

partners and transforming the Sydney

waterfront into a landmark destination.

567

Ushering in continued

prosperity to the region.

568

All right, let's meet our final

two guests for this episode,

569

both from, by the bay properties.

570

This Vancouver based company builds,

improves, and manages commercial

571

and residential real estate

properties from coast to coast.

572

President Bobby Dubeau.

573

And co-founder Mario Vetro.

574

Entered the own of McGee.

575

Cape Breton market a couple years

ago when Mario and his wife,

576

I, Kate brightener helped her

parents buy a house on the island.

577

In a coincidence, all too typical of

Cape Breton, they bought a house in Doug.

578

Doucet his hometown of Westmount.

579

Mario was shocked at how affordable

real estate was compared to Vancouver.

580

He asked the realtor, (his

wife's aunt, of course.

581

To look for apartment buildings too.

582

She found a four unit multiplex

and Whitney pier for $350,000.

583

After looking at average rent

prices, Mario and Bobby almost

584

thought it was too good to be true.

585

So they came to Cape Breton

to see for themselves.

586

And all they saw was opportunity.

587

Especially in neighborhoods of CBRM that

have been neglected by some builders and

588

landlords.

589

Here's Mario, followed by Bobby.

590

Robbie.

591

Mario Vetro: I think that benefit

from having seen Vancouver explode

592

over 20 years, 20 to to 30 years.

593

Areas of town that you know, you never

wanted to go to 'cause it was so, I.

594

In terms of quality of living, um,

the standards of the dwellings, the

595

type of people, nefarious characters

that, that operate around there, um,

596

those moved from over my lifetime,

the places you never want to be

597

to, the most popular areas in town.

598

And, and I think it takes a certain

kind of experience to know that.

599

That change can occur, but when you

have your old viewpoints and you're kind

600

of sort of stuck in your ways of what

it used to be, it's hard to look at

601

an area and just find the imagination

that it could be something different.

602

When we see a lot of areas in Cape

Breton, especially along the water,

603

We know how desirable the waterfront

has been in Vancouver, even for areas

604

that were mainly industrial or poorer.

605

but over time they

attracted a lot of people.

606

humans are naturally attracted to

bodies of water, wanna live around

607

them, and that's how you start to.

608

Get the imagination working of what

something can be versus, uh, taking an

609

assumption of what it always has been,

especially in a place, like Glace Bay.

610

we see a massive opportunity there, but

everyone locally that we talk to doesn't

611

want really anything to do with it.

612

Bobby Dubeau: Uh, yeah.

613

Like when you ask somebody in

Sydney about Glace Bay, you're,

614

you kind of get mixed reactions.

615

I think everything's there.

616

It's 15 minutes from university,

maybe 25 to downtown Sydney.

617

Not all the growth can happen

in, let's say downtown Sydney.

618

other areas surrounding areas need

to be Utilize to, build the housing,

619

revitalize the neighborhoods, and it

kind of all, once you start building,

620

I think that just gets the ball rolling

and making that area more attractive.

621

Michelle: By the bay immediately

invested in properties in these

622

areas, but like other developers.

623

They encountered labor challenges.

624

This problem was made worse by

the fact that they weren't locals.

625

It took some pivoting and some patients,

but they found a way to overcome.

626

Bobby Dubeau: originally when we

started, we were, we were two guys

627

from away, uh, we didn't know anybody

and we were at the bottom of, uh,

628

everybody's priority list in the middle

of a, uh, of a labor shortage, right?

629

So, in the start we were doing

mostly turnkey operations.

630

But now we've kind of developed

a network of, local contractors.

631

That we've partnered with, we've

also developed our own team as well.

632

so I we've kind of developed a

reputation, uh, over the last

633

couple years where we have builders,

comfortable, willing to work with us.

634

Mario Vetro: We have to come every,

uh, quarter basically and, and show

635

our face in town and, um, show people

what progress we'd made on things

636

that we wanted to do and, you know,

see the whites of their eyes and,

637

and, and earn their trust as well.

638

there is that old boys club type

of mentality that's tough to break

639

into But, uh, very pleased and happy

with the reception we've gotten once

640

we've gotten to really know people

in the CSS trustworthy and able to

641

deliver on what we say we're gonna do.

642

Michelle: With our team and partners in

place, they were able to start renovating

643

properties and expand their portfolio.

644

They've bought land for many homes.

645

And since CBRM is pushing for developers

to build bigger multiunit buildings,

646

that's their next area of focus.

647

Here's what their construction

pipeline looks like.

648

Bobby Dubeau: Mini homes,

we've already, placed orders.

649

I think we've got 40 in the

pipeline in terms of mini homes.

650

We'll have our first units arriving,

I would say end of February.

651

and then construction for multi-units.

652

depends on what CBRM will allow us

to do, only thing we could say for

653

sure right now is, we've got 40, Mini

homes for sure in the pipeline, with

654

the potential, I would say, I don't

655

Mario Vetro: Well put it this

way, it's not for lack of, uh,

656

anything that we can control.

657

Um, typically when a developer's

looking to build the, there'll

658

be certain bottlenecks, um,

accessible land, the ability to

659

finance, um, none of that is, uh.

660

Stopping us.

661

It's only a matter of going through

the permitting process and getting

662

approvals for being able to build.

663

if CBRM said tomorrow, you can

have permits for whatever you want.

664

the, we basically have, uh, a budget for

whatever, uh, that'll allow us to build.

665

Michelle: Yeah.

666

You heard that right?

667

Budget.

668

Isn't a problem for by the bay properties.

669

That's because by the bay, isn't

Mario and Bobby's only source of

670

income, and through their other gig.

671

They've made friends with deep pockets.

672

Mario Vetro: myself, I'm in the, the

finance world and, uh, I run a merchant

673

bank where I, I take companies public,

and Bobby assist in in some of that.

674

Well, so we can afford to invest

more into improving our properties

675

and then when the opportunities

come along and permits are

676

granted, you know, I've raised

hundreds of millions of dollars for.

677

Growth companies.

678

And so, um, we have a large, vast

network of financiers who are, uh,

679

chomping at the bit to deploy capital

into a growing place like Cape Breton

680

instead of deploying it into a place

like Vancouver that's very saturated.

681

Michelle: At this point, you

might be thinking "if these guys

682

have so much money, why don't

they build affordable housing?

683

That happens to be exactly

what they're doing.

684

A lot of their mini homes will

be set at affordable rates.

685

They're also taking advantage of

provincial and federal opportunities

686

to provide more affordable units.

687

Anyone looking for affordable housing

can join their wait list to be notified

688

as soon as anything becomes available.

689

Their website is by the bay properties.ca.

690

A direct link to the waitlist

has been added to the show notes.

691

But by the bay, isn't waiting

around for government programs to

692

start giving back to the community.

693

They've been helping out in other ways.

694

Bobby Dubeau: in our first

year, just simply on our own.

695

We, we provided homes for

40 new people during Fiona.

696

we had some homes that we

were bringing to market soon.

697

They weren't quite ready, but

they were, available for them

698

to live in as an alternative to

living in a home with no roof.

699

We've done a lot of work with CBU as well.

700

We've, uh, we created an emergency rental

housing fund a lot of the students here

701

are living in places that most people

wouldn't be comfortable living in.

702

So we've created a rental fund at CVU.

703

We've donated, uh, to

their student food bank.

704

We've donated.

705

A lot of our money to, local

organizations, sports and

706

recreation, anything that kind

of ties people to the community,

707

Michelle: One of the reasons they've been

able to keep their rental rates reasonable

708

is because whenever a unit is vacant,

they got it and make it energy efficient.

709

They're comfortable investing

the money upfront because they're

710

confident they'll get it back.

711

Especially when one of the modernizations

is switching from expensive heating oil.

712

The switch has made even more attractive.

713

Thanks to government incentives.

714

Bobby Dubeau: Yeah.

715

Efficiency Nova Scotia, like, it's,

it's incredible the, the rebates

716

that they're giving out right now.

717

for heat pumps, they're

taking people off oil.

718

Mario Vetro: uh, correct me if I'm wrong,

Bobby, they'll, they'll give you, um, 80%

719

of the cost back to put in a heat pump.

720

Bobby Dubeau: Yeah,

they'll give you up to 80%,

721

it's a significant investment on

their end and, uh, it's, it's crazy

722

For landlords not to take

advantage of that if they can.

723

Michelle: Thus far, we've heard from

two developers by the bay properties and

724

do set developments, about what they're

doing to address the housing crisis.

725

Since they're in the trenches.

726

We also wanted to hear their thoughts

on what they think can be done to

727

encourage more development in una moggy.

728

Cape Breton.

729

For by the bay properties, they

wanted to start by acknowledging

730

what's already being done.

731

Here's Bobby.

732

Bobby Dubeau: it's not very

often where you'd have municipal,

733

provincial, and federal governments

all agreeing on the same thing.

734

housing is the number one

priority for all three.

735

there's a great environment provided

by the government programs right now.

736

Every, every time I have a conversation

with the provincial or federal

737

government, they say, well, there's

more coming down the pipeline too.

738

there's plenty of local advocates as well.

739

K Brett Partnership has been great for us.

740

If it wasn't for them, maybe

we still wouldn't be in Kre.

741

so they've introduced

us to plenty of people.

742

plenty of opportunities.

743

it does seem like we're just

saying a lot of good stuff.

744

If we were going to have one

request, selfishly, I'd say, uh,

745

cancel the, uh, out of province tax.

746

because as, uh, as you've said, we're

from, we're from BC in our first six

747

months, we created, Homes for 40 people

and then they implemented a tax on

748

anybody from outside The province has

to pay upfront when they purchase.

749

they had proposed a tax on empty homes.

750

They ended up scrapping that,

751

Mario Vetro: it's kind

of a shocking notion.

752

They would, they would rather

the homes stay empty than be

753

owned by someone out of province.

754

Michelle: Going back to

Doucette developments.

755

Now, dug through set would like to see

CBRM and other local governments make

756

it easier for developers to succeed.

757

How, exactly.

758

He offered this example

from prince Edward island.

759

Doug: built a hotel in Summerside and, uh.

760

We didn't wanna do it, but we

went and met with the city.

761

They asked us to come and talk to them

and they just wouldn't let us leave.

762

you know, from tax breaks to

Freeland to like, they just made

763

it so that I couldn't walk away.

764

And we did the developer, we opened

the hotel in December and uh, you

765

know, it's been a great success

and it's been a pleasure working

766

with the town of Summerside.

767

But it needs to be that way in Cape Red.

768

It needs to be a place where when

we get someone coming, sniffing

769

around, we can't let them leave.

770

We gotta convince them that this

is the place to do business.

771

Give a developer, you know, a bonus,

maybe it's a point system or a tax setup

772

that the more I invest, I mean, you look

at member two and all the great things

773

they've done, like, They continue to

put their neck on the line and, and

774

take the risk and do great things.

775

And that's inspirational

to, should be rewarded for.

776

Darla: this is our, um, our

reputation, and like Doug said,

777

putting your neck on the line.

778

that means a lot, right?

779

I think that one way, to sort

of ease the pain of developers

780

and construction companies is

streamlining sort of construction

781

permits, providing incentives.

782

And I, and I know that government

is, is trying their best to do that

783

Michelle: Let's circle back to

Roger bootlegger from the Nova

784

Scotia association of realtors.

785

He also wanted to give kudos to

local governments and stakeholders.

786

Both for fostering an economic environment

where investment in housing makes sense.

787

And for tackling the housing

crisis with a can-do attitude.

788

Roger: I'm in the housing industry,

but I mean, you have to have an

789

economy to sustain the housing

there's a lot of entrepreneurship.

790

You see a lot of private

investment coming into Cape Breton.

791

There's jobs in Cape Breton.

792

The whole member two housing

initiative that's happening right now.

793

I mean, that, that in and of

itself is, quite amazing as well.

794

And, and something that, that

folks should be very proud of.

795

There's just a lot going on in

Cape Breton and a lot of it.

796

Is mindset.

797

when NSAR meets with the elected officials

and specifically, um, CBRM's mayor,

798

they have a very, positive outlook

and attitude towards housing and they

799

are taking initiatives, um, to, Help

solve the problem, which is fantastic.

800

They're not turning a blind eye to it.

801

So that's another factor because not

all municipalities are forward thinking

802

like, and we've had discussions with Ms.

803

McDougall for, two, three,

four years now on housing.

804

And, you know, we have offered up

all the data that we can provide

805

to them to help them make informed

decisions with regards to housing.

806

And she even went so far as like.

807

The council now has, it's actually a

standing agenda item the councillors

808

are discussing what's going on in

your area, what are you doing that

809

we could do to help solve this issue.

810

So, I mean, those little things

are often taken for granted, but

811

that they help solve the problem.

812

Michelle: All that said, Roger

does think more can be done.

813

Roger: I guess, you know, take advantage

of the programs that the government.

814

Does offer.

815

there was the housing accelerator fund,

and CBRM actually took advantage of that.

816

I mean, these are initiatives that the

federal government has put out to help

817

municipalities, solve the housing crisis.

818

So, Let's use what's available to us.

819

The missing middle is the key to this.

820

So, the municipal and provincial

governments could work with developers

821

to help add inventory to the missing So

the row houses, the duplexes, townhouses,

822

the between 350 and 500, 000 price range.

823

That is what is required right now.

824

Michelle: This conversation on housing

and development is almost done.

825

We're going to give Roger the final word.

826

He sums up where we're at,

where we still need to go.

827

And how we're going to get there.

828

Roger: There are buyers and renters for

the inventory that's being developed,

829

so let's keep the momentum going.

830

Let's keep the positive mindset.

831

Yes, it's hard to take at times.

832

I totally understand that.

833

We do need to do more on the

social end and on the senior

834

end of the housing spectrum.

835

I mean, we can't lose sight of that.

836

But we can't get discouraged and stop,

that would be the worst thing we could do.

837

We would go back to the days

where people would leave Nova

838

Scotia and move elsewhere.

839

We finally shifted that, if you

will, that people want to stay

840

here now and can stay here.

841

If you just, Look at the

headlines in the media.

842

quite honestly, it's depressing, But

There are a lot of good things going

843

on and that doesn't get reported,

People are trying to solve the housing.

844

Issue that we have in Nova Scotia,

I think Nova Scotia is doing a

845

better job than most in solving the

issue and CMHC bore that out when

846

they said we had the most housing

starts in Canada, this past year.

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Let's just work together,

solve the problem, knowing

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that it's not an overnight fix.

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You know, five years, I think, is going

to be the new dawn, when we will start

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to see the light at the end of the

tunnel, but we have to get to that

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five years, and you have to do the

work behind the scenes to get there.

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Michelle: Big, thanks to Roger boot Lior.

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Doug Doucette, Darla Godette,

Bobby Dubo and Mario vitro for

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sharing their stories and insights.

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Check out the show notes for links to

find out more about the Nova Scotia

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association of realtors, Doucet

developments, and by the bay properties.

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Thanks again, to our episode sponsors,

the construction association of

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Nova Scotia and Doucet developments.

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If you're a newcomer to Unimog.

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Moggy Cape Breton or hope to be.

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sometime in the future.

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You should definitely check out the

Cape Breton partnerships, other podcast.

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Welcome to Cape Breton.

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Next time on invest in Cape Breton.

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We're talking tourism.

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If you hit that follow button

on apple podcasts or Spotify,

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you'll be notified when it drops.

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If you're enjoying this podcast

would really appreciate it.

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If you left us a rating or review.

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Roger: Our theme music is under my

skin by Glace Bay's own Elise Aeryn.

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Invest in Cape Breton is produced

by storied places, media, , a

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proudly Cape Breton owned business

operated by me, Michelle Samson.

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Thanks for listening.