Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode 110: Men’s mental health matters with Dr T. Ajayi

Thank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast.

In this episode of the Aspiring Psychologist podcast, we welcome psychiatrist Dr. T Ajayi where we discuss all things male, including how to create a safe space, the importance of listening without advising and reducing shame. Dr Ajayi also discusses his experience on curating the Tri-Part Mind Gym and gives his advice in reducing burnout.

We hope you find it so useful.

I’d love any feedback you might have, and I’d love to know what your offers are and to be connected with you on socials so I can help you to celebrate your wins!

The Highlights:

• (00:00): Introduction
• (02:39): Welcoming Dr T. Ajayi
• (05:07): Overturning the tide of stereotypes on Men’s mental wellbeing
• (08:51): What does change look like for men’s mental health?
• (10:27): How to cultivate a safe space for men?
• (15:07): From never telling a soul to assessments
• (18:47): “Things get better”
• (21:58): The male experience
• (25:03): What is the Tri-part Care Mind gym?
• (30:18): Recognising privileges
• (32:14): Dr Ajayi’s biggest advice
• (33:20): summary and close

Links:

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📱Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the Aspiring Psychologist Book, Clinical Psychologist book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent

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Coming up in today's episode, this is a shout out to your men. This is a call if you are men. If you have ever worked with a man, if you know a man, if you work in a team with a man, this is a call if you have a father, if you are a father, if you have sons. This is a quest, a call, a movement interaction to better include men within mental health services. And I am joined by a consultant psychiatrist as we talk about how to better engage men and be the difference that makes the difference for men in mental health to make life feel like it's worth living. Hope you'll find it so useful. Please do share this content far and wide.

If you're looking to then let this with this podcast, you'll be being the psychologist with Dr. Maria.

Hi, welcome along to the Aspiring Psychologist podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, and I'm a qualified clinical psychologist. I like to introduce you to interesting themes and debates in psychology, and today's is going to be a really powerful episode. I am joined by a consultant psychiatrist today, which is a little bit different, but I hope that whatever discipline you are as you listen to this, and you may not work in mental health at all, you might actually be someone that might find the content in this podcast really empowering and maybe just life changing. We are talking about all things male. How can we better engage men in mental health services? How can we des shame? How can we have better results and give more hope? It was such a pleasure to speak to my guest today, and I hope that you find it to be just the most nourishing, interesting, thought provoking episode like I did. I'll look forward to catching up with you on the other side of this. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome to the podcast today, Dr. T Ajayi. Hi.

Good. Hi, It's nice to be here and thank you for having me on the podcast.

Oh, thank you for saying yes. We crossed paths on LinkedIn. I think originally you'd started commenting on some of my four minute clinics and then I started commenting on your stuff and then it just got to the stage where we're having big long conversations in the chat and I was like, maybe we should actually have a podcast episode to discuss this.

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing how many connections you make on LinkedIn or particularly, I particularly like LinkedIn because of the professional conversations and it's really a very interesting place where people have regard for each other. So it's one of my preferred social media platforms for that reason.

Me too. I do love the random chats you can have, but I love that you so effortlessly rub up against different disciplines. So you for example, are a psychiatrist and I love seeing where we might have shared ground, where we might be able to learn things about each other's profession and potentially what you can do together such as this. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself please?

Right, so I'm a consultant psychiatrist and I work in the southeast of England in the east of Kent and I've been in psychiatry. I started my psychiatry training about 23 years ago. Also, I do run a tripart care mission and wellbeing hub, which is an online safe sensitive space for people of a black ethnic minority and faith communities to come together and look at mental health in a way that is non-threatening and in a way where we can encourage open conversations and sort of normalise things that it's okay not to be okay and to have these conversations in a healthy way.

Yeah, such important conversations to have, and we're recording this in November and this is likely to be going out in January, but I really like the stuff that you were talking during men's mental health awareness campaigns in November about wanting to encourage men specifically to talk and to desham the process of having feelings because we are human. It's such important stuff to do.

Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more and my interaction with men over I think more intensively over the last three years assume that that stereotype is actually a stereotype that men don't talk about their emotions. I found it not to be true. What I'm finding is that men actually like women, everyone else have emotions, but we feel we only let down our guts when we feel safe. And I think it's really the honours is on society to begin to challenge those stereotypes about men don't talk because it's very difficult to beat stereotypes, isn't it? You feel boxed in and when you're the outlier, it feels like swimming against the tide. So if society believes that men should not express emotions, it's not okay, it is a sign of weakness for you to then be the man who comes forward and begins to talk emotions can be quite daunting. And that's what I'm hearing from men really, which is interesting.

It really is. And I am the mother of two young boys, but I also have an older brother. He's 17 months older than me, so not massively older. But it's interesting for me to be able to kind of compare and contrast the differences that I've observed from being the sister of a brother and then being the mother of two boys whilst also being a psychologist. Absolutely. We are empowering our young men these days to talk about emotions, to tap into their feelings, but this is not easy, I think certainly for our generation because it wasn't the way that we've been schooled. We're almost having to learn with them as well. Has that been your experiences too?

Absolutely. I couldn't agree, that there's such a generational gap in terms of emotions and in terms of men being in touch with emotions. I think the older generation, the baby boomers don't even do emotions at all. And interestingly that's striking because it's striking because the suicide figures, for instance, three out of four men dying by suicide in the UK and the highest age group is the 50 to 59 among men. So that's telling us something, isn't it? About really what's the link between where we feel comfortable about speaking about our emotions and then taking it out on ourselves and then ending up taking our lives. It's just something to think about. I absolutely agree with you.

I do hope that we are experiencing a bit of a wave of change though. For example, I dunno if you saw my post on LinkedIn the other day about what if we were all as emotionally sophisticated as the average modern 7-year-old. So as I was on my way home from school with my 7-year-old, he started telling me about someone in his class that was basically trying to get him to be her boyfriend and he didn't want that. He didn't want that, and she was kind of trying to manipulate him and saying, well, I'll invite you to my party if you'll come, you'll just be my boyfriend for a day. I'll invite you to my party. And in the end, he basically called her out for gaslighting and said, this is not okay. You can't do this to me. I've said no. And then was able to not only do that in the moment, but then tell me about it as well. And I'm like, gosh, I think there's change happening.

I think your voice is certainly ahead of the curve. It's probably because it's got the benefit of having been like that, having the benefit of a clinical psychologist mom, all these growing years for the last seven years, which are very crucial. But I also do agree that I think things are changing. I think my feeling is that the Gen Zs and the millennials, young men are more open to discuss their emotions, but they're also looking for safety. I've found that psychological safety for better use of a word in terms of just really having that safe sensitive space where men don't feel they're going to be criticised or that they're going to be fixed because that's the other thing, a man by nature wants to feel that they're the king of their castles. Even when the castle is in ruin and when everything is not where it should be, every man still wants to feel like he's in charge. And because men benefit us , what we then have with men relationship, our relationship with men is that as soon as you open your mouth, the other man wants to jump in and tell you the things that you're doing wrong and what you need to fix. And that man is just looking for an outlet. He's not looking for somebody to fix his problems. He knows that he's in trouble. He knows that things that need to be done, but he also just wants another peer who is a good listener and who is authentic.

So one of the key ingredients then for creating that safe space is a little bit less talking, a bit more zipping. It's just kind of to hear rather necessarily than to fix.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And there might be things we can suggest or come up with, but I guess do you believe in someone's ability to find their way to healing? What's your opinion of that?

So I believe that there are different parts that we find to our recovery journey, that our recovery journeys are different. Everyone's recovery journey is unique. It's based on probably their childhood experiences, their education and their exposure, the things that they've been exposed to in the course of their lives, because that's where the pool resources from when it comes to periods of conflict, when it comes to periods of challenges is from those places that they draw their resources. So I believe that everyone's unique journey is unique and that really, even as psychiatrists, as psychologists, as therapists, I think our role is to create a safe space sometimes even for coaches and mentors as well, to create a place of safety where people can reflect. Because sometimes we also lead the reality that we live in a busy world so people can step back and reflect and find their own answers and join their own dots.

And as you were talking, it was making me think about the importance of having a really good relationship with your supervisor because actually a key part of managing this work we do is that safe space. If you've ever had the experience of being supervised by someone you don't have a good attunement with, but it can really wobble you, it doesn't feel safe, it makes it feel like you're being judged and you're being criticised that you are not good enough. Whereas there's something really containing about that safe space even therapeutically as a professional. And so to be able to create that for our children and create that for our services users and our clients is incredible. We might be doing that for the first time ever, especially if we work with people that have had complex trauma backgrounds. It's a chance to get it right at whatever stage we're working with either a client, a colleague, or a family system.

I think psychological safety and being, having that containment, that space, it cannot be overemphasised as you say, because it's amazing as well. What then comes out, the content, the interaction that takes place when people feel safe because as you say, I don't even think it's only the supervisee that benefits. I think the supervisor as well benefits from that interaction because it helps you to feel safe to also admit sometimes your own vulnerabilities because that's the other issue in terms of really being able to admit that, yes, I'm supervisor, but I'm not the reporter of all knowledge or that there are things that I'm also going through that processes that it's an organic process for me as well.

Yeah, I dunno if you've ever done the exercise, and I'm not going to ask you to give me the answer to this question, but for you to hold in mind where you connect now to the thing that you are most ashamed of, and I am not going to ask you the answer, but if you just take a moment to just think about what that is and then you imagine having to tell me it, I'm not going to do it, but being able to do that and the physical sensations that you might feel as you were to imagine that you might feel squirming, you might start to sweat, you might start to think, oh no, what's she going to think of me? What's she, this is going to be awful. It's going to be broadcast everywhere. It's that sense of shame, judgement , criticism, and how it can really kickstart our fight and flight. And that is what we're essentially asking our clients to do. Certainly at every new assessment aren't we tell a stranger your deepest, darkest thoughts and feelings. But that said, it's not as bad as you imagine when it's handled well. Is it?

Yes. That's really, I like the way you've described it so graphically because it just brings it to light. And the interesting thing is when it's done well, it's amazing how many consultations that I've been in, particularly as I progress and learning the way not to do it and the way to do it. It's amazing how many times I've been in consultations where somebody has said, actually, I've just said to you something that I've never said to anyone else in my old life. Sometimes it's from a 63-year-old man, sometimes it's from a 54-year-old man and you are thinking, and that strikes me, I'm thinking, oh wow. So for maybe 63-year-old man. So he is been conscious about his thoughts about his wellbeing maybe for the last 55 or 55 years, and he's been carrying that around. And I think it tells me how much of the safety we can create and how it can trigger somebody's or set up, initiate somebody's recovery process by doing it right. And sometimes people don't engage because they're worried about what they're going to find. People don't want to come to psychiatric consultations, they think it's almost like a death sentence being referred to a psychiatrist. And because of the fear of the unknown, people don't engage. And of course what then happens sadly is that outcomes are worse because of four, because of the delayed intervention.

Yeah. It's such incredibly powerful and privileged stuff to be part of, isn't it? And to be potentially the difference that makes the difference and to get in there early enough before things spiral. So quite often during a postnatal period, actually for men can be really tricky after they've become a father for the first time, perhaps they've witnessed a traumatic birth, perhaps they're worried for the life of their partner and their child, and then they've struggled with that for years and years and years. And then meet me when the child's 15, 18, 20, whatever, and we are then processing that birth trauma that's impacted on their ability to parent. It might've impacted on their ability to grandparent to run their lives. And had we been able to see them a sooner period, it would've just been liberating for them. And so I absolutely echo what you say about do it now, do it now. Because so many times people have said to me, oh, well I wish I had done this sooner because actually it wasn't as bad as I thought

It was going to be. Yeah. It's interesting you say that in terms of really encouraging anyone who feels that they're that point in which they're contemplating to just do it now, because that same message is what I hear all the time when people say, well, actually I wish I had done it sooner. It's not as threatened as I expected it to be. But also I didn't expect that it was going to be such a beneficial process in terms of really, it's like I dreaded coming, having this encounters, but now I'm looking forward to it after a few sessions because I can actually feel that things are changing and moving in the right direction. So do it now is the same message that will echo to anyone one who's contemplating.

And do you know what message I think is now becoming unhelpful about mental health support and therapy and intervention? It's one that I've heard lately quite a lot is that people are saying to me, well, I know it's going to get worse before it gets better while I'm working with you. And people are like, I didn't do it because I couldn't afford for it to get any worse. But for me it's like actually, if we're managing you well and helping you within your window tolerance, we're not going to do things that are outside of your level of comfortability. So please, I guess if anyone's listening to this thinking, I can't afford for it to get worse before it gets better, I don't think that's necessarily what happens. What's your view on that?

I couldn't agree because I think that it's important. I think the role of the professional therapist, the psychiatrist, the clinical psychologist or the psychotherapist is to create that safety and containment. And I think part of our responsibilities is to help the person who is coming into that session to be able to manage some of the distress that they may feel, whatever it is. So part of the offer is to be able to manage the situation, whatever arises in the context of coming to those sessions for the first time. So really I absolutely agree that it can be very damaging because it could actually, because people don't understand what that means. It's going to get worse before it gets better. How long is a piece of string here? And somebody's already probably dealing with recurrent panic attacks who are having flashbacks, who having all of, they can't imagine what it's going to be like to be for things to get worse. So really that's a message that should be very clearly spelled out rather than just throw any massive cliche is going to get worse before it gets better because we are going to be there to hold anyone's hand when they come into that space. That's probably what we should be saying. I feel

Maybe we just change it to it's going to get better.

Yeah, absolutely. Because it does get better. And perhaps more people who, for whom it's got better, should really, particularly people who have clout, people who have a platform, people who are celebrating, people who are role models in society really need to be talking about the fact that yes, it does get better. I took a chance on myself and I'm glad I did. I think that's also an important message to put out there.

And when someone, it's more men who do say this to me actually than women when somebody says, if I hadn't met you, I would've ended my life and now I have hope for the future. It's real. It happens. This can transform people's lives and then transform the next generation too.

I like the generational part of what you just mentioned in terms of generation, because really we do know, for instance, that adverse childhood experiences that we do tend to carry that over the impact of adverse childhood experiences is generational. That if they're not dealt with the research showing that it then becomes generational in terms of we will then pass that on those generational trauma onto our own children and then they'll pass it on to their own children. So really that's another incentive, particularly for men who are wondering, should I, should I not? Because I know for most men, because of the sense of responsibility that we carry, passing, inflicting, inflicting damage on the next generation inadvertently is not something that a lot of us will want to do. So that could be another reason actually to think that I'm not only doing it for myself, I'm doing it for my children, I'm doing it for my grandchildren, I'm doing it for their own children as well.

And I think something that I've certainly experienced when working in areas of deprivation is that people haven't always had their own male parenting experience. And what's been really nice is when there's been males in the community who have kind of stepped up to kind of try to be a positive role model. And I think that's really, really important. What's your experience of that?

I totally agree on that count as well, that the responsibility of males in society, particularly if one is a male who has managed to go through the rite of passage and you've got some things wrong, but you've also got some things right, and you're now at a place where for one reason or other, most people don't choose to be like that, but for some reason, one reason or another, people then look up to you. I think it's important to then extend the definition of parenting. So beyond biological relationships, I think there's a responsibility on the men who have managed to go through those rites of passages to look out for young people in your community who might be rootless ruthless in terms of they have no roots because there's no further figure in their lives. That's one thing that the tripart Cambridge Wellbeing Hub for instance, looks out for in terms of quite a lot of young men. Through that hope that I've been able to connect with some of them that I didn't have one-to-one sessions with in terms of just really helping them to have somebody who is a grounding factor in their lives and who creates a sense of safety to be able to help them to consider things, to reflect and help them to join their own thoughts without being critical and

Such important stuff. So tell us a bit more about the Tri-part Care Mind gym. How did you come to start putting that together?

Yeah, that's quite an interesting question. And the reason is because it was quite a dramatic way. So just talking about the benefits of social media because some people knock social media and say, oh, it's all rubbish. But there are benefits to social media. We met on social media for instance. So my friend, just about the time we were entering into the second lockdown was about September, 2020. She puts up a post about another story she's had about holding her son from jumping off from a high rise building. So they lived in a highrise , and that was really, and I read that and I thought, oh my God, I've always been thinking about doing something for young men, particularly from young men who are from ethnic minority backgrounds. And this might be my opportunity. So I send an inbox message and say, actually, I read your post and it just feels, sometimes you read something and it just feels like it'll personal.

You feel that it's almost like Destiny is calling my name. You've got to do something now. Do it now. So I sent her a message and said, that really strikes me. And then she gave me the details. And at that point I then thought, okay, let's put out I was going to put out a post. And I did. I said, please inbox me if you're a parent who has a child who is struggling with mental difficulties at the moment of distress, let's know if your issue will be interested in meeting. And that was my opt out clause. I'm being very transparent here. My thinking was nobody's going to respond anyway, and then I would've satisfied my conscience. I put out a poster there, nobody responded, and I was inundated within box messages. So I knew, okay, now you have to do something. And so we had this first Zoom meeting, February, 2021, where people came together and we just said, this is an open session. And the attendance to start with Saturday morning, I was surprised how many people turned up and the stories. So that was when we thought, okay, yes, there is a, there's a media, and that's how it progressed. Yeah.

Great. So it's all online, is it?

It's all online. We meet by Zoom and it's usually the last Thursday of the month, and it's usually from 7:00 PM till 9:00 PM

Is this over eighteens? Is there an age spread or a range that you can cater for?

Very interesting question because when the Zoom concession started, it was targeted at 18 to 35 year olds. But then I began to get messages from parents who said, oh, you have been aged here, should really be ing for the parents as well. So these days what happens is that there's no age restriction, but we then have the gym courses, the gym courses are targeted. So it's a six weeks course where we discuss issues of identity, we discuss issues of finding your purpose, having a sense of what am I here for, dealing with issues of depression, stress, anxiety, and all of those. And that's ring fenced for the 18 to 35 year olds.

And is that 18 - 35 year old males or is that males and

Females? Males and females. Males

And males and females. Okay. Yeah. And I think well done. Well done. And I know before we started talking, we were talking about actually this going over and above monetary compensation for the work that we do. This is in your words, this is like a calling. This is because you really care about alleviating distress in people.

Yeah. That's an interesting conversation we were having, wasn't it? Because I think in order to continue to be a mental health professional, there must be, and to do it well, you must see it beyond just something that pays the bills, there must be a sense of calling, a sense of purpose that this is something that I'm caught out to do. And it's also a privilege, it's also a blessing to be able to do it because I feel that when we see the transformation that you've eloquently spoken about, the way people move on in their recovery journey, some men confiding in you that if they hadn't met you, they would've taken their lives. There's no pay packet that can pay for that. I think it's far beyond. So there must be a sense of purpose and calling that drives us and keeps us going.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I definitely agree, and I have that. I think it's the way I've been raised by my dad who sadly is no longer with us, but he kind of had the belief that if you can do something for someone, then you should. And I guess I've probably got some of that in myself as well.

That's my ethos as well, that if it's a privilege to be able to be in that position. I think sometimes because we live in society where sometimes we look at, we're almost programmed by media and by also messages to make us look at life in the half full or half empty glass view when we are looking at the things that are going wrong. But if you're in a position to be able to do anything, it's a position of privilege and it's a blessing to be able to do that. And I think that's something that we should all do. We're the ones that benefited at the end of the day, really.

Yeah, definitely. It's a two-way street, isn't it? Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time, Dr. Ajayi. It's been really, really lovely. Speaking with you, where can people learn more about you and about the Tri-Part Care Mind Gym?

Right, so the Tri-Part Care, we've got a YouTube channel actually by the same Tri-Part Care, and we've got lots of videos on there where we called, where people can connect, and of course on LinkedIn, that's where I put most of my thoughts and posts. I'm Dr. T ajayi on LinkedIn, and we've got a website that is still just developing. There's not a lot of content there yet, but also by the same tripart care.

Thank you. I will make sure that I link in the show notes and with the social posts and stuff so that people can find you easily. But honestly, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. I feel like I could speak to you for days and still not be done. If you had any advice for reducing burnout in the mental health professional sphere, what would that be?

If there was any advice, I think it'll be that one to make sure that one avails oneself of supervision, having a peer support group, but importantly, having a life outside of work. I think that sometimes as health professionals, it's very easy for our job to become a persona and to become identity. I think having outlet something where possibly not even doing it with people who are mental colleagues, something that makes you grounded and keeps you in touch with reality is a good thing.

Such brilliant advice. Thank you again for your time and for the important work that you're doing with your clients and with people that you may never meet. Face-to-face to.

Thank you. And thank you for having me on the programme and thank you on the podcast. And thank you for doing this podcast to put message out there and to highlight, liked spotlights, some of the brilliant things that are going on around,

Gosh, speaking to Dr. Ajayi was just like soul food. It was really, really lovely. I feel really privileged to have been able to have that conversation, and I hope that you found it useful. For whatever reason that you are listening to or watching this, either because you work in mental health or because you might be male or be looking at trying to help support and better understand someone who is male. What an incredible job I do. What an incredible job he does. And please know that there are people like us who work close to you. So if you need care and support, if you need guidance and nurturance, there are people out there who can help you, who will get you, who will hear you, and can help make this different for you and those around you. I just love what I do, and if you love it too, please help me spread the word about this podcast.

I'll look forward to bringing the next episode to you. Please do let me know what you think to the episodes. Come and connect with me on my social media. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. I'll look forward to hearing what you think. And if you've got any ideas for future podcast episodes, please do let me know. And in the meantime, I hope you find the books useful, the Clinical Psychologist Collective, the Aspiring Psychologist Collective, and I will look forward to bringing the next episode of the podcast to you from 6:00 AM on Monday. Thanks for being part of my world. Take care.

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