In this episode of the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast, Mario Sikora, María José Munita and Seth “Creek” Creekmore get to know Lee Fields a little better. Lee is one of the training assistants in the online certification programs led by Mario and MJ. Lee shares her experience with the Enneagram and how the ATA approach contrasts with the other Enneagram models she’s studied. She also discusses why she accepted the offer to become a training assistant.

TIMESTAMPS

[00:01] Intro

[04:53] About this week’s guest

[08:18] Lee’s experience with the Enneagram

[17:41] The state of the Enneagram

[25:28] Being a training assistant

[33:13] Why the ATA approach

[34:20] Outro

Connect with us:

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IG: @ataenneagrampod

Email: [email protected]

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Lee Fields:

Web: enneagrammatic.com

IG: @enneagrammatic

Mario Sikora: 

IG: @mariosikora

TikTok: @mariosikora

Web: mariosikora.com

Pod: Enneagram in a Movie

Substack: mariosikora.substack.com

Maria Jose Munita: 

IG: @mjmunita

Web: mjmunita.com

Seth "Creek" Creekmore: 

IG: @_creekmore

Pod: Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

Pod: Delusional Optimism

Mentioned in this episode:

Awareness to Action Podcast Network

Welcome back to another episode of Awareness Action Enneagram podcast.

My name is Creek and I'm with my delinquent co hosts, Mario Sikora Mijoze.

And we have Lee fields with us as well.

Yay.

And the fans go wild.

Do you have some sound effects?

Right.

Our adjective today means glittering with gold and silver.

Totally on brand.

Yeah.

When I think of Lee, I think glittering with gold and silver.

Yes.

On the inside.

Yeah.

So should we have a topic?

Why is Lee here today?

I mean, I'd love to have Lee.

You have any ideas?

Let's see.

I don't know.

Lee can talk about stuff you were just telling me yesterday.

Hit the button.

It's one of the greatest friend gifts from Lee is when I'm like, I have this topic that I want to just hear more thoughts about.

Just call Lee and be like, insert the topic coin and we go.

And it's always a great conversation.

And I learned so much, and I.

Choose to take that as a compliment.

Yes, exactly.

Such a gift.

But.

But Leah is here for a reason, right?

Yeah, she is here for a reason because she is, uh, I mean, she's been on the pot a few times.

So you.

You all are familiar with her, but we're just kind of getting to know her a little bit more.

Um, she's helping us out with module two that already started.

Um, but I'm sure people can join a little bit later if they'd like.

If.

If they've done level one.

If they've done level one.

Yes.

If they haven't.

Enjoy level.

Here we go.

That's right.

And we're talking about the certification program here.

The awareness to action certification program, which one can [email protected] great.

We got that out of the way.

There you go.

One of the things about me is.

I found it.

Yeah.

No, Lee is one of our teaching assistants and has been, you know, for a while, as have you, creek.

And so.

And like we did with Mickey a couple of weeks ago, we're, you know, just getting to know the team a little bit better.

So it's great to have you here.

Lee, if you had to pack a bag in ten minutes to go to Mexico, what are the essential items you're packing?

You can only pack ten.

One of them is Google Translate because I am not a good spanish speaker.

Oh, my top ten items.

I don't know.

In all honesty, I pack the same things pretty much everywhere.

So it's just like, pack that stuff.

Okay.

Vague technology.

Forget a charger, you'll buy it there.

It's, like, too many books that I won't actually read, but will intend to.

Essential kitchen items that the Airbnb won't have.

Yes, exactly.

Such as good salt fish spatula.

A fish spatula?

Yeah, the good salt.

Amazing.

Yes.

Yes.

You can use any spatula, but if it's fish, you need that one.

Yeah.

Would you pack Covid?

Covid?

Yes, absolutely.

Covid is still happening.

I would have Covid tests.

That's a reference to Lee's pharmacy in Nashville, where we were all together and, you know, Lee had a trunk full of protective and palliative.

And got Covid.

And got Covid despite it.

Yeah.

The rest of us were fine.

We couldn't care less.

We're sharing lollipops and stuff.

And Lee, you know, is wearing a hazmat suit.

It was my first dance with COVID in fact.

But confirmation bias is now at work.

I need that stuff.

There's actually going back to the books that you travel.

That travel with.

There's apparently a german word.

I don't remember what it is, but it's like the book that always goes with you wherever you go and you never read it.

Oh, I love it.

The Germans have the best word.

They really do.

I really do.

So I think the Japanese have a word for buying books that you don't intend to read.

But I'm that one, too.

Yeah.

I would have to find out what it is.

Exactly.

Thank you.

All right, so how about we talk about something interesting?

So Ata about Lee?

No, no, no.

We want to know about Lee here.

So who is Lee?

And.

Yes, let's start there.

Who is Lee Fields?

Well, I am.

Says I.

Says you.

Rumor has it I live in Athens, Georgia, with my husband and my 15 year old and two nearly hairless cats.

Purposefully hairless.

Do you take razors?

They genetically mutated that way long before I had anything to do with them, but, yeah, they're cornish rex cats and very lovable.

They'll probably make a zoom or a squad cast appearance before it's over with.

They typically do.

Those are sphinx cats.

These are rex cats, but similar.

Would you take them to Mexico?

No, I would not take them to Mexico under normal circumstances, but there could be a circumstance.

Anyways.

All right, so who is Lee?

All right, you got the cat.

I got the cat.

My family has just moved into a house in the past couple of weeks, and we're really glad to be here, but I am surrounded by a sea of boxes that I haven't looked in in a couple of years.

So my current life is excavating all the stuff that I forgot I kept when we moved last time.

So.

If you haven't done anything with it in two years, do you really need them?

Well, that's a good question.

And ordinarily, I would say, no, probably not.

But part of the consequence of not going through them in the past two years is I had to buy stuff again.

That is probably in the boxes, so I don't need all of it.

But it's just reacquainting myself with the things that I've been deprived of in the past two years.

Many of those things are books.

Okay, awesome.

Who are you for the people around you?

Well, I think one of the.

This is a very navigating question I'm having.

What roles do I fill for these people?

What would people say?

Oh, what would people say about you?

What would people say about me?

Well, you three would be perhaps more qualified to answer this question than I would.

I think people would say something about my sense of humor.

They would say that I am thoughtful and caring.

They would say that I'm opinionated and rigid.

But in a nice way.

They wouldn't always say in a nice way, honestly.

But many times they would.

I mean, they'd say, you're rigid in this way.

It's a nice kind of rigidity.

They wouldn't say that.

Some would say stubborn.

Some would say stubborn.

Honest.

Tell us about your experience with the enneagram.

Now I'm the age that everyone else was in the group, but the therapist had, like, six or seven sheets of paper that were.

I'll carbon date myself here.

Mimeographed sheets of paper that were.

Is that an adjective?

Printed with this?

Yeah, it's.

We'll explain it to you later.

It's toxic purple ink.

It smelled really good and got you a little bit.

When the teacher would pass it out, everybody would hold it up to their face and breathe it in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a very specific olfactory experience.

Anyway, it didn't have any diagrams.

It was just short sentences describing the types.

I don't remember where she'd gotten it.

I read through it.

I was like, okay, there I am.

And I didn't think about it again for about 20 years.

But when I did run into the word Enneagram 20 years later, I was like, oh, I've heard of that.

How have they written a book that big about that thing.

And they're still writing.

They're still writing.

Right.

And why are there so many of them?

Like, that can't be the same thing.

Maybe this is a compilation of stuff about things.

Right?

But, no, it was.

So I googled Enneagram in Atlanta because that's where I was living at the time, and ran across my first Enneagram teacher, Nan Henson, and signed myself up for a workshop.

She said it didn't matter which order you took them.

And so instead of taking the 101 workshop, I took instincts and subtypes, which I'd never heard of.

And that is the beginning of how I got here.

So, Lee, you've studied the Enneagram with a lot of different people.

Right.

You're an ecumenical, Enneagram sort of person here.

Why?

What drew you to wanting to learn more and to wanting to learn it from different people?

That was a great question, Mario.

Good job.

I'm getting good at this.

I've been practicing.

I read a book the other day on ask good questions.

Well, y'all have crested the hundredth episode.

Your.

Your skill building.

Now.

I studied with a lot of people.

Well, first and foremostly, because I got a lot out of the little bit that I learned to begin with.

I found it a very impactful model.

And I know there are a lot of people who talk about finding the Enneagram, and, you know, it being a life changing experience.

And I hate to be a cliche, but that was kind of true of, like, just the recognition that first night in Nan's workshop of, like, oh, people really don't think the way I do.

Right.

There's a.

There's more here.

Right?

And I didn't think this at the time.

At the time, I thought, I just need to learn more about this, because if a little bit is helpful, a lot is probably more helpful.

And I was, quite honestly, a little bit unsatisfied with the information that I was learning.

It seemed like there should be more here.

I should understand this more clearly at this point.

And so I bounced around in a lot of different books and podcasts and workshops and schools, trying to find clarity, the truth.

And so here I am.

So, how did you find us?

I found you, actually, indirectly, through creek.

I'm the source of all things good.

As many people have and do.

Yes.

I was in Creek's collection of interesting and sometimes misfit toys.

And.

Boy, ain't that the truth.

Yeah.

Every so often, we get a message from Cree, and he says, I got.

Another wheel for you.

I'll throw a drain with square wheels.

And so I had heard Mario on the Fathoms podcast.

I was friends with the fathoms crew and heard Mario.

And soon after that, Creek reached out and said, hey, there's this certification program.

Would you be interested in doing it if they had space for you?

And there was, and I was.

And so here I am.

That's what I got here.

Do you remember what was your first reaction to the content?

The ATA Enneagram content?

Yes.

Shop.

In a good way or a bad way?

Yes.

Yes.

One.

Yes.

It was a good way and a bad way.

The good way was like, it felt like a dawning of understanding.

Like, oh, that's what's happening.

Right.

The bad way was, and I wouldn't have been able to articulate this this way then, but reflectively.

The bad way was I misunderstood a lot.

Right.

And I don't like that feeling.

What have I been doing wrong?

Is not a place I like to dwell.

But there was the hopefulness of, like, this makes sense, right?

I can work with this.

Right?

And I'll segue here.

One of the main things is that your certification modules start with clear thinking.

And I had never been confronted with that as a necessary tool at all.

What do I do with this information about myself or other people?

By this point, I was working with other people.

Again, as a cliche, as so many people who enter the Enneagram work eventually do.

Like, wow, this is fantastic.

I'm going to help people with it.

I've got to share it.

Yeah, let me share it.

Nobody at my house wants to listen to me, so I'll find people who.

Do, and I'll make all those big Enneagram dogs.

Yeah.

Corner the market on the big bucks.

And so just the way that ATA approaches the Enneagram model and the way that y'all language what is happening there was incredibly clarifying to me.

It was like context I didn't know was missing was suddenly there.

Well, not suddenly.

It was like 36 weeks of certification eventually.

But the clear thinking, really.

I just went on a.

It was supposed to be a three hour tour.

It's a Gilligan's island reference for all the young un's there.

I do know that one.

You got that number, fan?

Yeah.

I started in January, and suddenly it was Labor Day.

I almost had a handle on ferbs.

So, Lee, so you studied with Ata narrative and Rieso Hudson, correct?

Yes.

Rizo Hudson and other schools and practitioners who are in the lineages of both those things.

Dan Henson and Linda Roberts were my first certification, and they're Rieso Hudson.

Any agreement institute based.

And what have you found helpful with those other schools?

I've found a lot of things helpful in a lot of enneagramous spaces.

I've learned something in all of them, but I haven't necessarily learned things in all of them that I could use as practically as the stuff that I've learned with Ata.

And when I say used, I mean either with clients or with myself.

I learned a lot of theory, and in some schools, like in the narrative, there's a big focus on learning to type and typing interviews and running panels and things like that.

And those things I've achieved some proficiency or fluency at through practice, but I don't do them the same way anymore.

With your unique sort of perspective on.

Yeah.

All the schools you've studied under a lot of different people.

The state of the enneagramous, where is it at, and where do you see it going?

Before you answer that, Lee, can I just say, in addition to having studied with various people, you're involved in IEA Southeast?

I think it is on the board, yeah.

And so you have an additional window into what's happening in the Enneagram world through that.

And look, I think the IEA, Marie Jose and I are both former presidents of the IEA.

It's an organization we continue to support.

And, you know, one of the things that being involved in that does is you get to talk to a lot of different people from a lot of different places and a lot of different schools.

So I just want to make it clear for the listener that it's not just, you know, you who's done some workshops having that perspective.

So thank you.

Yeah, I'm actually the programming committee chair for the IEA Southeast chapter and work with a team of people there to bring all of our monthly chapter meeting programs and events to fruition.

So I do talk to a lot of diverse people, some of whom have schools and training programs of their own, and some are just practitioners or teachers, coaches in their own right who have different perspectives on the enneagram.

So I guess makes me feel like the state of the union address with the president of the United States.

Like, the state of the Enneagram is strong.

But what I'm wanting to say is the state of the enneagram is dynamic would be the word that I would choose.

I haven't been in the Enneagram community space for all that long, like less than ten years now.

And there's a lot of institutional memory and history that I've only heard about, I haven't experienced.

But from what I've heard, it seems sort of cyclic and dynamic historically as well.

So one of the things that I think is true is that a lot of new people to the Enneagram don't know all of the history of either the IEA organization or teachers and stuff.

And that leaves an impact on how they navigate the present.

You know, if you're not familiar with, you know, if you don't know history, you're going to repeat it, right?

Is the kind of thing.

And plus, you know, given that the history is so ancient of the NHS, you know, dating back.

We had technology problems, I don't think we're going to be able to get.

No, no, we're not hijacking.

Lisa.

Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

With the history of the integration, I.

Knew it would be cut somewhere.

So I think that, look, I've been.

I haven't been in the community forever since it started, but I've sat through sessions, I mean, through hours of discussing the history in detail.

And I see the point of understanding the history so that we don't repeat it.

But also being too attached to the history might make us be stuck, you know, and too attached to certain things that happened in the past.

And it's when I see, I don't know, I was going to say younger people, but people who are new to the enneagram or newer to the enneagram, they have less baggage around the history which allows them to be more free to choose and adopt ideas.

So I think that that has.

There are two sides of that.

Look, I agree with you, Marie Jose, that the history is useful from one perspective and can keep you stuck in the other.

What I find now is that a lot of people who are new to the Enneagram don't understand that the enneagram is not just one thing, right?

That there's just one approach to it.

They all assume that, okay, this teaching that I encountered is the quote unquote unquote Enneagram.

And I know that even 30 years ago, you know, I would be surprised to discover it was really hard to find Enneagram books back then.

And so when I would find them, you know, sometimes you'd find some and you'd say, oh, that's really interesting, you know, and it was a completely different take or a very different take.

And so it was a little shocking to the system.

Right.

To understand that.

So I think it's good to understand that there are different approaches and to experience them like you have and then kind of figure out what works for you.

Right.

And I would just say that one of the things that dynamic that you're just describing is absolutely something that I experienced.

Like, oh, this is all a facet of the Enneagram, but they're all talking about the same thing, was how it felt and coming to Ata and like, you know, day one, session one, you're like, there's no one.

The Enneagram.

These are all different models that we're studying.

I'm like, huh, okay, that makes sense.

This is clarifying some things.

Right.

And it has made it easier for me to engage with other material and get things out of it since learning that.

So it's like, oh, they're just different models.

Got it.

Right.

Talking about the same thing.

Yeah.

Trying to describe the same thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Basically.

Yes.

And I will say that learning with awareness to action, in contrast to other schools I've studied with, you guys own that this is your model.

Right?

Like, we built this technology to solve a problem of working with this thing practically in real life with people.

Right.

Yeah.

So in other schools, the.

That I have studied with, it's more like sharing somebody else's work.

Right.

And that inclusivity is great, but there's also a bit of remove from ownership of the model.

So it's.

Yours is just more like, this is what I've observed.

This is why it's this way.

I iterate if necessary, but this is the answer.

Not.

Well, kind of.

Yeah.

And I think you used the word ownership there.

And I think what you mean by that is accountability, too.

Right.

Rather than proprietary protection or something like that.

And responsibility.

Accountability and responsibility.

And responsibility, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Right.

If there's a mistake in this, it's our fault.

Right.

And we take that seriously.

Right.

I mean, that's why rigor is so important.

Yeah.

And it doesn't mean that we're saying that we came up with every idea, but because we acknowledge where it's coming from.

I just want to be clear about that.

It's not like you had a dream.

It can't be made through guided writing.

So, Lee, you were a training assistant at the level one certification program for a couple of rounds already.

I think.

I think at least three.

Two or three.

And you are now a training assistant for level two.

Why did you accept to work with us in that capacity?

And what makes you continue?

For a lot of reasons, one is.

Well, you asked me and I appreciated the invitation.

I wanted to do it, so it was an option.

And that's what you think.

I was conscripted to do that?

They're going to make you an awesome.

I wouldn't have wanted to refuse the offer to work with.

With you.

All the friendship and collaboration parts are very important to me.

The opportunity to apprentice with people I respect and continue to learn from and have the opportunity to better practice my understanding of a model I really respect, to be able to teach it better and use it better in my own life.

And I would be lying if I didn't say that.

Part of why I'm here is because I think I can help advance Ata.

Advance the Enneagram.

And I never would have considered training with ATA before Creek because I thought it was just corporate Enneagram.

That's the.

The line I had been fed.

And when I got into the study of it, I realized that it's every bit as much personal work.

It's just a different lexicon and a different model.

But it sounds like a slogan or a marketing thing.

But I am a leader in my own life, and if I don't take accountability and responsibility for that, then I'm not managing my life well.

And you guys have been teaching leaders and managers how to do that better for as long as anyone with this tool.

And they want results or they don't keep coming.

And so that's.

That's part of why I'm here, is to continue working for myself personally and advancing this tool that I think is so good in clearer and better ways everywhere I can do it.

I'll say that it was Lee's idea for me to start doing the substance, by the way.

So I take four.

Better, for worse.

Richer or poor, created amazing technology.

She said.

Hey, you got stuff to say.

Jay, why did you ask Lee to be a ta?

I think there's something, and we just kind of feel people out, or there are things that we see in potential, people that we want to collaborate with.

And I think with Lee, she was usually very engaged in the trainings, got the ideas, liked the ideas.

I mean, she was always a bit.

A big advocate, but questioning things anyway.

So she wasn't swallowing up, like, everything, as we said, but she would wrestle with the idea and then, and try to understand it and get it.

And when it made sense, she would advocate for it.

And so.

And you can tell when people want to be more or there's potential for people to be more engaged.

I feel like I was one of those at the beginning, you know, I liked the approach, and so she followed me all around.

And there's that girl again.

Come on.

You would.

And so she had that.

So for.

For every training earlier on, we used to kind of pay attention to the people who had that potential, and I think Lee had it.

And when we asked her if she wanted to work with us, and it feels like to play with us, you know, because we're building something, and we try to have fun, enjoy the process, continue building it, try to provide something that it's useful to the other person so that she benefits from this relationship.

But also, you could tell that Lee wanted to add value as well, so she accepted.

I'll add to that.

First of all, Lee's super smart and bright and insightful.

She's got a broad knowledge base.

She gets my references.

Yeah.

Which is nice to have somebody around who, you know, says, oh, yeah, I know what that means.

And I saw that movie or something like that, so.

But.

And Maria Jose has touched on this already.

But you know what I always look for?

First of all, in order to work with somebody, I have to like them, right?

I mean, you know, if I don't like you, I'm not going to work with you.

And I have to find you interesting.

You know, it's like either you're some kind of weird, or you have interesting things to say.

Right.

That's a good misfit.

Toys or both.

Package.

No.

So it's going to be interesting.

But the main qualities are thoughtful, open minded, and like Marie Jose already said, but just doesn't, you know, you're not so open minded that your brains fall out.

Right?

So, you know, that's an old Carl Sagan quote, but no.

Willing to push back, say, hey, yeah, I don't think that's right.

Or, you know, think about it this way or something.

And so those are the kind of people I want around, right.

People who are going to be open minded, hear what I have to say, listen to it, consider it pushed back when, you know, it's warranted and not be afraid to do so.

So, you know, and it's hard to find people who meet all those qualities, right.

So it was very fortunate for us that Lee Forrest gumped her way into our certification program.

And, you know.

I'm everywhere Creek.

See, leave that reference.

I actually had a shower thought yesterday, I need to watch Forrest Gump.

Because the amount of times that that movie gets quoted in popular culture, I guess I should.

Life is like a box of chocolates.

Greek.

Okay, so great your weekend.

Final question here, Lee, for those listening that are considering should I pop into AtA or not for one of the training modules, what is your pitch to them?

Yes.

Okay, you should.

Yes.

If you are looking for clearer understanding, practical applications of what do you do with this now that you learned it and insight into?

I think this is probably the number one special thing about Ata's approach net is that there's a logic to all of us and how can we understand that dynamic and therefore have more compassion for it for ourselves and with other people.

And the way that ATA approaches teaching, that logic is unique and special.

Amen and amen.

All right, this is great.

Thanks, y'all.

Thanks.

Thanks for listening to the awareness to Action Enneagram podcast.

If you're interested in more information about awareness to action, their certification programs or events, feel free to reach out to us through the links in the show notes or by emailing in [email protected].