Ian Altman: 00:00:02

Ian, welcome to the same side selling podcast. I am

Ian Altman: 00:00:05

your host. Ian Altman, they say you always want to surround

Ian Altman: 00:00:13

yourself with people who are smarter than you, and today is

Ian Altman: 00:00:15

no exception. I'm joined by my good friend, Tamsen Webster and

Ian Altman: 00:00:20

tampson, for those of you who are long time listeners,

Ian Altman: 00:00:24

probably remember tam from her book, find your red thread and

Ian Altman: 00:00:28

tampson, I apologize if it was finding or fine, but I No, yeah,

Ian Altman: 00:00:32

exactly

Tamsen Webster: 00:00:32

right. You That was exactly the title of it. So

Ian Altman: 00:00:35

what are the odds? So I get it right. Go figure. Go

Ian Altman: 00:00:37

figure. And I love the notion of the latest book, which is

Ian Altman: 00:00:43

titled, say what they can't unhear. Because if you think

Ian Altman: 00:00:47

about it, those of us in sales are always trying to figure out,

Ian Altman: 00:00:50

what can I say that's going to stick with my client? What are

Ian Altman: 00:00:52

the messages that I'm going to convey that really stick and

Ian Altman: 00:00:57

make it so people remember them and they'll actually say it back

Ian Altman: 00:00:59

to us the way we said it, if not better. So with that, let me

Ian Altman: 00:01:04

welcome you aboard everybody. I want you to meet tam Webster.

Ian Altman: 00:01:09

Hey, Tamsen, hey, hey, good to see you. Thanks for joining. So

Ian Altman: 00:01:15

what was the what was the driving force behind this book?

Ian Altman: 00:01:19

I know that's a boring question, but, but I wanted to know

Ian Altman: 00:01:23

because I was like, Wow, I love the topic of this, but what was

Ian Altman: 00:01:26

it that made you say, Okay, here's, here's what's needed out

Ian Altman: 00:01:29

in the marketplace.

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:31

So really, the driving force behind this was my

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:34

watching our mutual friend Phil M Jones wrap yet another

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:37

audience around his British accented finger. And what I

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:42

realized, because I've seen Phil talk about sales and exactly

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:46

what to say and all of that, and I know he and you are aligned in

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:50

a lot of ways. I was watching him talk about his various

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:54

pieces and philosophies, and I said, you know, so much of what

Tamsen Webster: 00:01:56

he talks about and what you talk about is so good about in

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:00

getting an immediate action, getting action and a yes right

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:05

away, and what I'm not hearing, at least in what he is saying,

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:09

and as I was thinking about what else is in the marketplace, I

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:12

don't see as much and hear as much about how to keep that yes

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:17

as a yes. How do you keep someone how do you get a yes

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:21

that doesn't back away and become part of buyer's remorse?

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:25

How do you get a yes that doesn't turn into a ghost? How

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:28

do you get a yes that doesn't turn into well, you know, the

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:33

you know, procurement said no, right? So, how is it? What are

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:36

those concepts, in a very similar way that Phil presents

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:41

accessible, memorable, quick and to the point do I know from all

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:46

the time that I've spent doing long term change might help

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:49

shift that? So it really was that moment. I'm like, huh, he's

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:52

got these concepts. I'm like, I do too. So I wrote them and

Tamsen Webster: 00:02:56

created nine persuasion Proverbs, as I like to call them

Tamsen Webster: 00:03:00

to really focus on not just action, but sustained action,

Tamsen Webster: 00:03:04

keeping the yes, a yes, yeah. I

Ian Altman: 00:03:07

mean, a lot of what I look at is, in many, in many

Ian Altman: 00:03:09

respects, you're often almost like the messaging whisperer,

Ian Altman: 00:03:12

like, Okay, what do we come up with that that someone hears and

Ian Altman: 00:03:16

they go, Oh, that's really good. That sticks. And I love that.

Ian Altman: 00:03:20

Everything you write about, everything you speak about,

Ian Altman: 00:03:22

there's always a structure behind it. So I'm not surprised

Ian Altman: 00:03:25

that there are nine proverbs that you share. So be before we

Ian Altman: 00:03:30

dive into those, sure, what are some of the mistakes that people

Ian Altman: 00:03:33

make when they're trying to accomplish this? So So

Ian Altman: 00:03:36

presumably, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the goal

Ian Altman: 00:03:39

is, how do I how do I say stuff that's sticky that doesn't then

Ian Altman: 00:03:44

erode and get diluted over time, and people kind of forget and

Ian Altman: 00:03:48

don't care anymore?

Tamsen Webster: 00:03:50

Yes, yep. So I think one of the main big

Tamsen Webster: 00:03:53

mistakes is that we go straight to the what we think will be

Tamsen Webster: 00:03:58

remarkable or sticky or different, without making sure

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:03

that those words that are wrapped around that idea, that

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:08

the idea underneath it is something that people would also

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:10

say yes to. So one of the things I often say to my clients is

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:14

that remarkable may get attention, but relevance keeps

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:18

it and there's a lot of things that we do sometimes to get

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:22

attention to be different, to be a challenger, to be

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:26

controversial with somebody, particularly that we're meeting

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:29

with, perhaps for the first time, so that we can stand out.

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:32

That while they may get that attention to start with, in many

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:36

ways, it works against long term change to begin with. So I would

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:40

say that in addition to focusing on, how do we be different, how

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:44

do we stand out? The other big mistake is focusing on quick

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:47

action rather than long term, sustained changes in thinking or

Tamsen Webster: 00:04:52

behavior, and that oftentimes is a different set of principles.

Ian Altman: 00:04:56

Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think

Ian Altman: 00:04:58

it's one of the things that I. I say, I talk about a lot also,

Ian Altman: 00:05:01

which is very often somebody will say, Oh, here's this thing

Ian Altman: 00:05:05

we want to solve. And old school sales would jump into the

Ian Altman: 00:05:08

solution right away, instead of, well, help me understand why

Ian Altman: 00:05:11

that's important, and what is it you're really trying to solve,

Ian Altman: 00:05:14

and what have you done to try and solve this? And who else is

Ian Altman: 00:05:16

most directly impacted? We unpack all this other stuff that

Ian Altman: 00:05:20

now makes it so that we can come back to them and say, okay, in

Ian Altman: 00:05:23

order to solve that underlying issue and get this outcome, this

Ian Altman: 00:05:27

is what would suggest. But if we didn't do that, if we just jump

Ian Altman: 00:05:31

to the solution, we kind of get this watered down problem that

Ian Altman: 00:05:35

they have that doesn't have a lot of relevance,

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:38

absolutely and and we're also not giving them

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:41

all the pieces of the story that's going to happen in their

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:45

heads, or that actually has to happen in their heads in order

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:47

for it to make sense. I'm sure we talked about this a little

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:50

bit the last time, and it's the second proverb in the book. But

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:53

every decision has a story behind it, right? A story that

Tamsen Webster: 00:05:57

somebody tells themselves. And one of the ways that I talk

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:00

about it in this new book is that every action somebody takes

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:04

ends an internal argument in their heads about why that

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:09

action does or doesn't. Make sense, right? And so if somebody

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:12

chooses you or doesn't choose you, it's because they are

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:15

telling themselves a story about why they should or shouldn't.

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:20

And so the whole idea is, if we only give people the problem and

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:25

the solution, which is just the beginning and the end of the

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:28

story, like that would be a very unsatisfying story. You know, if

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:33

it were a once upon a time story, I often use the Star Wars

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:35

example of like, well, once upon a time, there's a Brady kid

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:38

named Luke, and he saved the galaxy. And you're like, Okay,

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:41

fine, there's no conflict. There's no why would I listen?

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:46

You know? And, and the equivalent is basically saying,

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:50

oh, that's your problem. Here's our solution. And then when we

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:53

when people really want that deeper connection, and the

Tamsen Webster: 00:06:56

connection in between is, why is that the solution? Then,

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:00

oftentimes what we end up doing then is like, benefit bombing

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:03

them and say, well, you're going to get this and you're going to

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:05

get this and you're going to get this and you're going to get

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:08

this, and that you still haven't actually explained why your

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:10

solution would legitimately solve their problem. So they

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:15

you're not giving them all the pieces they need to tell that

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:18

story to themselves, which is absolutely why they can't tell

Tamsen Webster: 00:07:21

it to somebody else either.

Ian Altman: 00:07:23

Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think in

Ian Altman: 00:07:25

my research, a lot of what we find is that it's not that the

Ian Altman: 00:07:28

person hasn't tapped into at some level the problem. Oh,

Ian Altman: 00:07:32

absolutely right. They don't yet believe that it's a really

Ian Altman: 00:07:36

serious problem. So like, wow, this thing kind of happened, and

Ian Altman: 00:07:38

why? You know, we should probably fix that so, so let's

Ian Altman: 00:07:42

go, let's go search for a solution. But it's when the

Ian Altman: 00:07:45

person communicating with them asked the question about, so how

Ian Altman: 00:07:48

long has it been going on? What happens if you can't solve this?

Ian Altman: 00:07:52

What have you tried so far? And what I tell my clients is, look,

Ian Altman: 00:07:56

if they say, Well, I haven't really tried anything else, it's

Ian Altman: 00:07:59

probably not that important to solve, because they haven't

Ian Altman: 00:08:02

tried anything. If it's something important, they say,

Ian Altman: 00:08:04

Well, we tried this, we tried this, this didn't work, that

Ian Altman: 00:08:07

didn't work. And there's research that says the greatest

Ian Altman: 00:08:11

reason why people pick one services vendor over another is

Ian Altman: 00:08:15

how well they feel you understand their situation. So

Ian Altman: 00:08:18

as soon as you jump to the solution, you're talking about

Ian Altman: 00:08:21

yourself, not them, and their favorite topic is them. And if

Ian Altman: 00:08:27

you can convey that you understand and help them

Ian Altman: 00:08:30

understand their predicament, then they're more likely to be

Ian Altman: 00:08:33

open to the solution. So where do these proverbs tie into that

Ian Altman: 00:08:36

kind of stuff? Because I'm sure they do. Yeah. I

Tamsen Webster: 00:08:39

mean, I think what, what it reminds me of is

Tamsen Webster: 00:08:41

the first proverb there, which is that change isn't just an

Tamsen Webster: 00:08:44

action, it's a reaction. Meaning, if we're trying to get

Tamsen Webster: 00:08:47

well, first and foremost, that reaction, that's where you think

Tamsen Webster: 00:08:51

about re, hyphen, action, a true change in thinking or behavior,

Tamsen Webster: 00:08:56

is a repeated action and and one that is internally motivated,

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:01

which is why it has to come in from their side of it has to be

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:04

they. It has to make sense to them based on what they already

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:09

want, what they already know, what they already care about. So

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:13

if we are not focused on that piece and we're just trying to

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:16

get that quick action, then again, we may not get that long

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:20

term. Yes, we may get somebody asked because yes, you've raised

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:24

the stakes, or you've made the pain of the status quo exceed

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:26

the pain of change, or whatever it might be. But also, just to

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:29

your point, it's also reaction to you. Because if you're trying

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:34

to introduce a new perspective on this problem, if you're

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:37

trying to get them to see consequences that they're not

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:39

seeing, if you're trying to reveal to them that there is a

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:41

deeper problem underneath the one that they know about, then

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:45

the biggest source of new information is you, and so much

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:51

of how you approach that change whether or not you make them

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:55

feel worse as a result of what they've done, if you make them

Tamsen Webster: 00:09:58

feel bad about what they've. Doing if you make them, if you

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:02

insult their current vendor, right? By insulting their

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:04

current vendor, your consult, you're insulting them in many

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:07

ways that that can absolutely set you up for failure at the

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:11

beginning. So that's why I made that the first proverb, because

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:16

I think a lot of times we just think that the information is

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:19

enough to make the case on our own, but the approach that we

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:23

take is just as important, because so much of what people

Tamsen Webster: 00:10:27

are reacting to is you,

Ian Altman: 00:10:29

yeah, you know what? I love some of these points,

Ian Altman: 00:10:32

there are a few things that kind of stick out to me. One is this

Ian Altman: 00:10:35

notion of you can never say something negative about the

Ian Altman: 00:10:38

competition or about their current vendor, because if

Ian Altman: 00:10:42

you've done the right job, if you're talking to the right

Ian Altman: 00:10:44

person, they likely made the decision to hire the existing

Ian Altman: 00:10:48

vendor. Say, Well, Who's the idiot who hired these people?

Ian Altman: 00:10:52

And they're like, Well, that would be me. Okay, I'll let

Ian Altman: 00:10:54

myself out. Yeah, exactly. I'll just leave because it's not

Ian Altman: 00:10:59

gonna work. And Deborah and I have adult children, so 25 and

Ian Altman: 00:11:02

23 we didn't fire their pediatrician. It's just our

Ian Altman: 00:11:06

needs changed. We no longer had we no longer had children. We

Ian Altman: 00:11:10

had adults. Yeah, and the pediatrician basically said to

Ian Altman: 00:11:13

our son, look, when you have to shave before coming to the

Ian Altman: 00:11:16

doctor, it's time to you know, skip the pediatrician. You know,

Ian Altman: 00:11:20

who are coming here. It's like, Okay, fair enough, right? So

Ian Altman: 00:11:23

that kind of, that kind of helps to illustrate this notion of, we

Ian Altman: 00:11:28

got to get to that type of issue. We got to get beyond just

Ian Altman: 00:11:33

this notion of, you know, us against them. It's more, how do

Ian Altman: 00:11:36

we get on the same side? How are we trying to solve this puzzle?

Ian Altman: 00:11:40

It's okay, like, the that vendor you chose was probably the best

Ian Altman: 00:11:45

vendor on the planet at that time in your in your situation,

Ian Altman: 00:11:49

that was awesome. And now that your needs have changed, we can

Ian Altman: 00:11:52

expand this to new stuff that you hadn't thought about. And I

Ian Altman: 00:11:56

go, well, that's kind of cool. Okay, exactly. Yeah, we can do

Ian Altman: 00:12:00

something different, and we can get more going on with that.

Ian Altman: 00:12:02

Wow, this is cool. Okay, there's something else to talk about. So

Ian Altman: 00:12:05

the first proverb is this idea of every action is a reaction.

Ian Altman: 00:12:09

Is that? Right?

Tamsen Webster: 00:12:10

Yeah, change isn't just an action, it's a

Tamsen Webster: 00:12:12

reaction.

Ian Altman: 00:12:13

It's a change is just an action, it's a reaction.

Ian Altman: 00:12:15

Which I love, because I often tell people it's like, you can

Ian Altman: 00:12:17

come in and think of the greatest thing, but it's like,

Ian Altman: 00:12:19

it would be analogous to if you were a, if you were someone who

Ian Altman: 00:12:24

did tennis elbow surgery. Yeah, you can't walk in and go, I'm

Ian Altman: 00:12:29

the best at tennis elbow surgery. So why don't we get

Ian Altman: 00:12:31

together and, and let's, let's go through this and, and I've

Ian Altman: 00:12:35

got you scheduled for 10am on Tuesday. Here's some references,

Ian Altman: 00:12:39

because if the person doesn't believe they have tennis elbow.

Ian Altman: 00:12:41

It really doesn't matter. And if the tennis elbow isn't affecting

Ian Altman: 00:12:44

their life, they're not going to subject themselves to surgery.

Ian Altman: 00:12:47

And it's the same thing in this business world, where we're

Ian Altman: 00:12:49

trying to make it so that people understand that exactly. Walk me

Ian Altman: 00:12:53

through the Proverbs that and kind of how this is different

Ian Altman: 00:12:58

thinking for people, because I know that it is because I know

Ian Altman: 00:13:01

the way your brain works, and you're always thinking of stuff

Ian Altman: 00:13:04

that most of us wouldn't think of. Yeah, and, and, and, I don't

Ian Altman: 00:13:08

want you to give away everything in the book, because people

Ian Altman: 00:13:11

should get

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:11

that. They should Well, I'm just giving

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:13

people a little taste here. So the first three Proverbs, we've

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:16

actually talked about two of the three. And so that first one is

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:19

change isn't just an action. It's a reaction, meaning really

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:22

be You control a huge amount about whether or not this is

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:25

going to be a yes or not. So yep, don't you know, take that

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:30

with the responsibility that is, yeah. As I say, your approach

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:33

can just as easily implode a change as inspire one second

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:38

one. Every decision has a story. So what I'm talking about there

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:43

is it's not just an explanation that we're giving people. We

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:47

have to give them an actual case, and I mean that quite

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:50

literally, that they can make to themselves and to other people

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:55

about why that particular action makes sense. Then it's like,

Tamsen Webster: 00:13:59

okay, well, if it's an argument, what is it based on? And that's

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:02

where the third principle comes into play, and that is that the

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:05

principles set patterns. And this is one of the, you know,

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:10

what I'm getting at at this one is that, you know, when we're

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:14

thinking about what we say yes to, and this is, I think, one of

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:18

the places where it's the book really starts to diverge from

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:22

other people's thinking is that these actions, these arguments

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:26

that we agree with, are based on beliefs that we already have.

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:31

And so if we're trying to understand why someone's doing

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:35

whatever they're doing right now, we have to stop and think

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:38

about, well, why would it have made sense to them in the first

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:41

place, and then from there, we can have a much better

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:45

understanding about why something different would so

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:48

those first three are kind of setting the stage for

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:52

understanding how change happens, but it's the next three

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:55

that I think are the most countercultural when it comes to

Tamsen Webster: 00:14:59

sales messaging. Particular

Ian Altman: 00:15:00

so talking before we dive into these next three what

Ian Altman: 00:15:03

I want to know is, so what a I love, how I love how the dogs

Ian Altman: 00:15:08

have figured out how to how to create a reaction.

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:14

Yes, you've Yes, thank you for being patient.

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:17

Yes, this is one of those times where at this point of the day,

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:20

I have to be very careful. We have to be very careful about

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:22

both Tom, my husband and I being on the call at the same time,

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:25

which we are, which means that, no, he can't save me right now

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:29

from this dog that is like now, just getting a constant stream

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:33

of treats so that she doesn't fully interrupt,

Ian Altman: 00:15:37

of course, but, but she's, she's figured out. She's

Ian Altman: 00:15:40

She's clearly read the book. She's

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:42

clearly read the book. This is a very smart, this

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:44

is a very smart dog. This one, well, these breakdowns, is what

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:47

they do. They That's right, yes, she's, yeah, the only thing that

Tamsen Webster: 00:15:50

would make it better is if I were a rabbit, but exactly

Ian Altman: 00:15:53

so. So what? So in these next three, yes, what I'd

Ian Altman: 00:15:58

love for you to kind of lay out is, what is it that people are

Ian Altman: 00:16:02

what is it that people are trying to accomplish? And what

Ian Altman: 00:16:05

do they do typically, versus what are you suggesting? Because

Ian Altman: 00:16:09

what I'm trying to help people with is okay, so if you're

Ian Altman: 00:16:12

trying to accomplish this, and you may typically do this,

Ian Altman: 00:16:15

here's a counterintuitive way to look at it. Yep, you can unpack

Ian Altman: 00:16:18

it however works for you. But that's true. That's what I'd

Ian Altman: 00:16:21

like our listeners to understand

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:23

absolutely well, almost always, if you're coming

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:25

in and you are trying to get a change, if you're trying to get

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:28

the person to change partners, change vendors, to you, you're

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:31

trying to get them to adopt or expand. Let's say, if you're

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:34

trying to do an inside sale and try to get them to expand what

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:37

they're doing, right? There is something that in their mind, in

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:41

your mind, needs to change and and usually the way we think

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:45

about that is, well, then I need to change what they think. I

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:48

need to change what they believe. This is where it goes

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:51

wrong, because, as I say in the fifth proverb, that the deepest

Tamsen Webster: 00:16:57

beliefs are the hardest to shift. We know this intuitively,

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:01

right? The longer somebody believes something, the stronger

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:04

they believe it. But what that means is, is that when you try

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:08

to bring in a new belief, saying, well, that's not your

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:11

problem. This is or you don't want that. You want this or this

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:15

is the real reason this is happening, even if they say yes,

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:19

which is unlikely, because, remember, they're going to say

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:22

yes to things that agree with what they already have agreed

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:25

with. Then even if they do say yes, then you've got this

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:29

little, tiny, weak baby new belief, like the first time it

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:33

gets tested, running up against this 800 pound gorilla of the

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:37

way they have done things to date. So what I have seen now

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:42

work over and over again in sales, messaging, all sorts of

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:46

other messaging, is, instead of trying to challenge their those

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:50

beliefs that are getting in the way, search for another one that

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:53

is stronger that they already have. So what that means

Tamsen Webster: 00:17:58

sometimes is saying, All right, so you don't think you know, if

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:02

I try to actually say, Stop doing this. Do this. Instead,

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:05

unlikely that someone's going to do that. But generally, there is

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:08

something else that they agree as far as how sales work, how

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:13

people work, how maths work, how the world works, that actually

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:16

is much more reliable and supports the changes you're

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:20

trying to make that then when you put those two things in a

Tamsen Webster: 00:18:23

fight, it's much more likely to win.

Ian Altman: 00:18:26

Yeah, and it's, it's one of these things where I

Ian Altman: 00:18:29

often say that our clients will believe 127% of what we say,

Ian Altman: 00:18:36

and, you know, and something less than 50% of what we say. So

Ian Altman: 00:18:40

they're always going to believe more of what, more of what they

Ian Altman: 00:18:43

say than what we say. And so oftentimes we take this approach

Ian Altman: 00:18:47

of, you know, it's, it's not challenging what their beliefs

Ian Altman: 00:18:51

are. It's just more so on a scale of one to 10, how well is

Ian Altman: 00:18:54

that working for you? Yes. And if they go, I don't know, it's

Ian Altman: 00:18:57

probably like a six, really. Why six? Well, because this working,

Ian Altman: 00:18:59

but that isn't okay. So and then using a line from Phil Jones

Ian Altman: 00:19:04

would be well, so how open would you be to considering something

Ian Altman: 00:19:07

different? And now it's like it was their idea to do something

Ian Altman: 00:19:11

different, so it's okay. But if you come in and say, well, doing

Ian Altman: 00:19:15

it that way is going to be awful, they usually are going to

Ian Altman: 00:19:18

be resistant if you say to them. So other clients of ours, when

Ian Altman: 00:19:22

they've done it this way in the past, didn't even realize this

Ian Altman: 00:19:24

was what was happening. And when they've moved this other system,

Ian Altman: 00:19:28

these other great things happen. How possible you think that is

Ian Altman: 00:19:31

in your situation? Then they go, Hey, I got this idea that maybe

Ian Altman: 00:19:35

this would happen. And you're like, oh, it's brilliant that

Ian Altman: 00:19:38

you have that idea. But it's more just about sharing, like,

Ian Altman: 00:19:41

if we share a third party story, someone goes, Oh, yeah, I'm

Ian Altman: 00:19:44

probably a lot like them. If I say to you, you should do it

Ian Altman: 00:19:48

this way, I'm probably going to get resistance if I say other

Ian Altman: 00:19:51

people had this, but that probably doesn't apply to you,

Ian Altman: 00:19:53

right? They're like, well, it totally applies to me. It's the

Ian Altman: 00:19:56

same thing, but it now became their idea. So, you know, this,

Ian Altman: 00:19:59

this notion. Of those deepest beliefs being the hardest ones

Ian Altman: 00:20:03

to change. Totally get that and and too often I see people make

Ian Altman: 00:20:07

a mistake of trying to fight that, and it's a losing battle.

Ian Altman: 00:20:11

If you want to get top results for your team, take a look at

Ian Altman: 00:20:14

these same side, selling Academy. Just visit same side

Ian Altman: 00:20:17

selling.com to learn more. That's

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:20

right. So I say use, use their beliefs in your

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:24

favor. So it's the whole full lot, you know, the whole

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:26

phenomenon is something that's known as cognitive inertia. It's

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:31

like regular inertia. That is like something that, you know,

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:35

body at rest, stays at rest. The thing is, with cognitive

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:38

inertia, it's our beliefs that don't move right? It's that we,

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:41

you know, we stick with the beliefs that we already have and

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:43

the stories that we already tell ourselves. So the thing is,

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:47

like, when you work, and as I say, to be don't challenge

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:50

people's beliefs. Exchange them, exchange them for something that

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:53

they know or that makes more intuitive sense than what

Tamsen Webster: 00:20:57

they're doing now, or functionally, when they put it

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:00

together, like, ah, yeah, based on what I know to be true, based

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:03

on my own experience, your prospect can say, yeah, that

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:07

actually does make more sense. Like I was talking with someone

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:09

who works at a social media management company, and, you

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:13

know, and again, there's lots of options for that, lots of

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:17

different things, so it's hard to stand out in that

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:19

marketplace. So it was funny, because we were on, I was on a

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:22

podcast, and he paused, and he just, he showed a he showed an

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:25

ad for them, and I said, you know, what's so interesting is

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:28

that the case, you know, all these testimonials that you

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:30

picked, all of them talk about kind of the reporting and all of

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:34

that. And I'm sure it's very tempting to say, or our

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:37

reporting is so much better, but this is one of those places

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:40

where they can stand out. Because clearly what's important

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:43

to the folks that they're talking to is visibility, right?

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:46

And the more that you can say like, the greater visibility you

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:49

have into what's working and what's not, the better you can

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:54

manage your social media platforms saying something like

Tamsen Webster: 00:21:57

that, where someone's like, Well, that's true if, yeah, the

Tamsen Webster: 00:22:01

better I can see things, the better decisions I can make.

Tamsen Webster: 00:22:05

Then all of a sudden you've supplanted anything else that

Tamsen Webster: 00:22:09

says what you know. Instead of making it about this program

Tamsen Webster: 00:22:11

versus that program, you're like, Well, now you've made it

Tamsen Webster: 00:22:14

so that visibility means everything for my

Ian Altman: 00:22:17

clients with often find is okay. So if I said to

Ian Altman: 00:22:20

you, oh, here's a better way to do it, the client's gonna say,

Ian Altman: 00:22:24

now we wouldn't want to do that. If you say, Well, it's

Ian Altman: 00:22:26

interesting, because people used to do this now find that this is

Ian Altman: 00:22:29

working better. So how do you think that would be different

Ian Altman: 00:22:32

for you guys? It'd probably be the same for us. Okay? And now

Ian Altman: 00:22:35

it became their idea, the people you're talking about in the

Ian Altman: 00:22:39

social media marketing company, yeah, I think the notion for

Ian Altman: 00:22:42

them of being able to say, for example, so that visibility is

Ian Altman: 00:22:46

important, but if they if their messaging was almost talking

Ian Altman: 00:22:49

more to the problems of other people, and say, you know, a lot

Ian Altman: 00:22:53

of times we had clients who said, in the past, the people

Ian Altman: 00:22:56

they worked with, they didn't have visibility into what was

Ian Altman: 00:22:59

going on, And without that visibility, by the time they

Ian Altman: 00:23:02

realized something was or wasn't working, they had wasted a lot

Ian Altman: 00:23:05

of money on it. So we've changed that to give instant visibility

Ian Altman: 00:23:09

so they can pivot as soon as they start seeing results. How

Ian Altman: 00:23:12

would you guys use that? Now the client goes, Oh, if I had that,

Ian Altman: 00:23:16

I would do X, Y and Z. And now it's like, well, forget about

Ian Altman: 00:23:19

the company I was working with because I had that same problem.

Ian Altman: 00:23:23

You know, we often say that people are highly attuned to the

Ian Altman: 00:23:26

symptoms they're experiencing. They just don't know what the

Ian Altman: 00:23:29

what the condition is that's causing it, or how to treat it,

Ian Altman: 00:23:32

but they know what the superficial symptoms are, and if

Ian Altman: 00:23:34

we can tap into that, then we get their attention. That's

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:37

exactly right. And and by by what I have seen

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:41

is that by articulating that in a way that, again, feels

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:46

universally true, right, like the better visibility that you

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:49

have, the better decisions you can make, right? Like, that's

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:52

what we believe at this company, and so that's why we approach it

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:56

this way. And that's what we've seen with our clients, is that

Tamsen Webster: 00:23:59

when they do X and Y, they see, and that has been just for me in

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:05

my work, as I've been working with folks, you know, with this,

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:08

with particularly with these Proverbs, but in this approach

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:11

of really finding that, you know, I call it a core case like

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:15

this, this, what is the underlying argument for what you

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:19

are, what you're putting out there, like, Why? Why is it that

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:23

you believe this is right, without resorting to features,

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:27

you know, flooding them with features, or, like, benefit

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:30

bombing or anything like that, like, like, really, like, in a

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:33

way that makes intuitive sense to them, what ends up happening

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:37

is that your clients end up saying, Ah, yeah, I agree in

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:41

principle that why this would work, and with that kind of that

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:46

early and really critical, yes, secured, then you can start to

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:50

dive into the details of what it looks like in practice, either

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:55

for other clients or potentially for them, so that you can start

Tamsen Webster: 00:24:58

to go into needs discovery and all of. Yeah,

Ian Altman: 00:25:00

yeah. What I love is that you're, you're giving

Ian Altman: 00:25:02

people insight into how our customers make decisions, yes,

Ian Altman: 00:25:07

and what they need to believe in order to get behind a decision

Ian Altman: 00:25:10

so they can own it. And I think that's what, that's what,

Ian Altman: 00:25:14

obviously, I spend a lot of time with people on which is, look,

Ian Altman: 00:25:17

if you can find someone who says, Yeah, I have this problem,

Ian Altman: 00:25:20

and that problem is costing me a lot, and it's really important

Ian Altman: 00:25:23

for me to solve. Now you have their attention. If someone

Ian Altman: 00:25:26

says, Well, here's this thing I'd like to do, and you start

Ian Altman: 00:25:28

talking about your solution, what you fail to recognize is

Ian Altman: 00:25:32

that they may not really be bought into how big of a deal

Ian Altman: 00:25:34

this is yet. And so your solution, they're like, well,

Ian Altman: 00:25:37

that's kind of cool if, if it was a big problem. Now, the

Ian Altman: 00:25:41

salesperson says, well, but you called me, it must be a big

Ian Altman: 00:25:44

deal. No, they're just like, huh, I got this issue. These

Ian Altman: 00:25:48

guys claim to solve it. Let's see what they got and but

Ian Altman: 00:25:51

they're not bought into it yet. And I think that if we do this

Ian Altman: 00:25:54

right, we're providing our clients with information. So in

Ian Altman: 00:25:58

essence, if we ask the right questions, they'll convince us

Ian Altman: 00:26:02

that things are worth solving. And if we can convince if we can

Ian Altman: 00:26:05

get them to convince us that it's worth solving, they're also

Ian Altman: 00:26:08

convincing themselves. And then all of a sudden, now it's like,

Ian Altman: 00:26:11

Okay, now, now we're on to something where, okay, now we

Ian Altman: 00:26:15

can say something that they can't unhear. Because mostly

Ian Altman: 00:26:19

what we're saying is their ideas. We're just kind of

Ian Altman: 00:26:22

spitting them back to

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:23

them, that's right. And I think where it

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:24

comes and creates this magic, kind of magic elixir between

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:30

them now saying, oh my gosh, I actually have to solve this. And

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:33

you saying, and yes, we've got a way to solve it is by finding

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:38

that way to again, using something that they already know

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:41

to be true to say, All right, so you know, you've got this issue

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:46

that you called with right the way we see it is that in order

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:50

to solve that, we have to solve this thing first. Because let's

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:53

go back to the social media thing, because if you can't

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:55

actually see the results of what you're talking about, you can't

Tamsen Webster: 00:26:59

solve it. So that's why it's been so important for us to make

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:02

sure that when we're working with clients, we're actually

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:04

really focused on visibility. This gets really powerful when

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:08

you can say, but that's not all right when you can actually add

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:12

this other thing that says, because you know, you can have a

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:15

whole bunch of visibility. But if, if, if one thing is showing

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:18

you things in black and white and the other thing is showing

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:21

you in color, then you may not actually be able to match

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:24

anything up. That's why, right? We want to make sure that if

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:28

we're if we are getting visibility, that we have a clear

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:31

view and we're using the same lens on everything that we're

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:34

looking at. So that's why, in our comprehensive system, right,

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:38

x, y and z. So, and then you can again relate that back to the

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:42

client. So it really is this, this piece about, like, going

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:47

back into those, into those beliefs, about using the beliefs

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:52

as the core data that's supporting your case for why you

Tamsen Webster: 00:27:56

and that, I think, is really where this, this approach, goes.

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:00

You know, I think speaking about where we end up going wrong

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:03

sometimes, is we, we? We want to flood them with all the data and

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:07

all the information, all the facts and the figures, but you

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:10

know very much along the lines of what you said, they're going

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:13

to believe their own experience most. So leverage their

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:18

experience, leverage what they know to be true, and explain why

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:22

your product works based on their experience. And then

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:25

you've got to really that's what becomes very difficult for them

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:29

to unhear. When they're like, oh, this solves a problem that I

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:32

know I want solves, and the way that it works is based on

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:36

principles that make sense to me, that I believe are true. And

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:41

from there, it becomes a lot easier for you to start

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:44

anchoring the more more practical and tactical pieces of

Tamsen Webster: 00:28:47

what you've already presented.

Ian Altman: 00:28:48

Yeah, it's a whole notion of, if we ask the right

Ian Altman: 00:28:50

questions, and we give the client the free will, and the

Ian Altman: 00:28:53

client makes a decision to do something that makes sense to

Ian Altman: 00:28:56

them, then it wasn't like we talked them into something that

Ian Altman: 00:29:00

they're gonna talk themselves out of, right? They talk

Ian Altman: 00:29:03

themselves into it. And the best way to do that is by us being

Ian Altman: 00:29:07

slightly skeptical. That says, Are you sure this is worth

Ian Altman: 00:29:10

solving? Like, is this am I missing something? And then they

Ian Altman: 00:29:13

either say, no, no, it is. You don't understand. But if we say,

Ian Altman: 00:29:16

Wow, that's probably a really big deal, usually the client

Ian Altman: 00:29:19

goes, yeah, it's not such a big deal, even if it is because they

Ian Altman: 00:29:22

feel pressure from someone else. I used to do this exercise with

Ian Altman: 00:29:26

people pre covid That now is less popular to do, which is I

Ian Altman: 00:29:30

would have people put their hands palm to palm against

Ian Altman: 00:29:33

someone else. And I gave instruction cards, and half of

Ian Altman: 00:29:37

them said to gently push against the other person. And half them

Ian Altman: 00:29:41

said, push slightly, and then slowly, draw your hands away

Ian Altman: 00:29:45

from the other people. Yeah. And if you looked in the room, you

Ian Altman: 00:29:48

could not tell the difference of who had which card, because the

Ian Altman: 00:29:52

people who pushed got resistance, and the people

Ian Altman: 00:29:55

pulled their hands away, the clients tended to follow. And it

Ian Altman: 00:29:58

basically came down to it. If you create something of interest

Ian Altman: 00:30:01

and slowly pull it away, people will want to follow it. If you

Ian Altman: 00:30:05

have something of interest, but you push, you tend to get

Ian Altman: 00:30:07

resistance. And this whole idea of being able to say what they

Ian Altman: 00:30:12

can't unhear as I hear it, is this notion of if we tap into

Ian Altman: 00:30:16

their own beliefs, if we tap into the stories that they can

Ian Altman: 00:30:20

that they can believe, if we give them this idea of these

Ian Altman: 00:30:23

principles that form patterns, all of a sudden, now we've got a

Ian Altman: 00:30:26

framework that says, Okay, I believe this. This is something

Ian Altman: 00:30:29

that isn't foreign to me. I can buy into this concept. Am I? Oh,

Ian Altman: 00:30:33

absolutely, close.

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:35

That's 100% it. I mean, the whole philosophy of

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:37

the book is saying, well, all right, really what we're trying

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:40

to get people is, is to buy in and sales literally buy it,

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:44

right? We want them to become emotionally intellectually

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:46

invested, so that they put the money behind it. And if we

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:50

operate from this understanding that, you know, every every

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:53

decision like that, every choice, every Yes, is the

Tamsen Webster: 00:30:57

product of an argument, then we need to make sure that we're

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:00

supplying that argument, and if the arguments we agree with are

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:03

based on on what on the beliefs we already have, then the whole

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:07

philosophy of the book is really what it comes down to. It is

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:10

that if we're trying to build buy in, we need to be building

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:13

these arguments that are based on what people already want,

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:16

already believe. So I think where you know you I mean, I've

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:21

always loved so much your approach, and I really love

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:24

that, that that visual of, if you give them something

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:27

interesting, they'll follow. What this book really does is

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:30

say, make sure that whatever they followed will they will

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:33

continue to follow. Because, as you also pointed out, there are

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:37

those times where people will say yes, either to get you to

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:40

stop talking, or because they don't want to lose face. And

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:43

there are some principles in the book that speak to that. So one

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:46

of them, the fourth one, is that identity is the greatest

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:50

influencer. And what I mean, and what I'm talking about there, is

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:53

that one of the most reliable desires that all humans have is

Tamsen Webster: 00:31:58

to be seen as smart, capable and good. They may not believe that

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:02

they are, though many do, but they really want to be seen that

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:06

way. They want to be seen as smart, capable and good and long

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:09

term, that desire will override anything else, which is why, if

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:15

we make someone feel stupid for something that they've done in

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:19

the past, if we are using, if we are introducing pain into the

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:26

initial sales discussion to get them to act quickly, and yet,

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:29

what they stop and think about it, they're like, oh, actually

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:32

no, I am too smart, capable of a good person to have done that,

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:36

then we may get the initial movement, but it will not be an

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:41

initial movement that stays that way, because that desire to be

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:46

seen as smart, capable and good, again, not by you the

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:49

salesperson, but by the people they have to see every day, is

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:53

going to take over. And so it's, it's, it's really just asking

Tamsen Webster: 00:32:57

people to think beyond that first moment. And it's and great

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:00

salespeople already know this. It was one of the reasons why I

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:03

was so delighted that Matthew Dixon, the co author the

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:06

Challenger sale, gave me my cover blurb for it. Because, in

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:09

a lot of ways, you know, the whole idea of challenging what

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:12

people's beliefs is about is useful, if, right, if, if, if

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:18

we're doing it in a way that helps them validate their smart,

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:23

capable and goodness, and doesn't make it conditional,

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:27

which is what I think a lot of times we, perhaps

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:29

unintentionally, do, while saying, Well, you will be smart,

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:32

capable and good if you make this decision rather than you

Tamsen Webster: 00:33:37

are. And there's why this decision makes sense.

Ian Altman: 00:33:40

Yeah, we often teach this notion that the reason why

Ian Altman: 00:33:44

people often stick with an existing vendor, even if they've

Ian Altman: 00:33:47

messed up, and even if the new vendor comes in and shows how

Ian Altman: 00:33:50

they're gonna be better, is because one, they have to fire

Ian Altman: 00:33:52

the vendor they liked enough to hire to begin with, yes. And

Ian Altman: 00:33:56

two, they have to acknowledge that maybe they made a mistake,

Ian Altman: 00:33:59

and most humans don't want to do either. So they go back to their

Ian Altman: 00:34:02

existing vendor and say, Hey, these other guys said that we

Ian Altman: 00:34:05

should be doing it this way. So why don't you take a look? And

Ian Altman: 00:34:07

you're like, why did they not switch to us? And it's because

Ian Altman: 00:34:09

we made them feel badly. If instead, you say, look, these

Ian Altman: 00:34:12

guys were probably the best vendor to pick at the time. And

Ian Altman: 00:34:15

what some people found is that just they've gotten so

Ian Altman: 00:34:18

sophisticated as a company that those vendors can't service them

Ian Altman: 00:34:21

anymore. You think that's possible with you? Oh yeah,

Ian Altman: 00:34:24

that's probably true. Now it's like, I didn't make a mistake.

Ian Altman: 00:34:26

It's that the other vendor can no longer support me, and

Ian Altman: 00:34:29

that's, that's what's happened. So

Tamsen Webster: 00:34:32

validate that, validate that original choice,

Tamsen Webster: 00:34:34

because then oftentimes it'll also reveal something that they

Tamsen Webster: 00:34:37

value and they don't want to lose. And so if there's a way

Tamsen Webster: 00:34:41

that you can build whatever they are, you know what they don't

Tamsen Webster: 00:34:45

want to lose, make sure that you are emphasizing how that is

Tamsen Webster: 00:34:48

still present in the switch. That can help too.

Ian Altman: 00:34:52

That's awesome. So where do people get the book,

Ian Altman: 00:34:54

aside from everywhere, and where do they connect with you and

Ian Altman: 00:34:58

learn more about what you're doing? Yeah.

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:00

So they can get the book. The easiest way to

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:02

remember it is little changebook.com where they can

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:05

get all sorts of aspects of it, because sometimes people don't

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:08

remember say what they can't done here, I know irony, but

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:12

little changebook.com and to find out and more along these

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:16

lines of thinking, I recently founded the message design

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:20

institute. So message design institute.com. Will take you to

Tamsen Webster: 00:35:24

all things persuasive. Message design,

Ian Altman: 00:35:26

listen. Message design, I get, I still refer to

Ian Altman: 00:35:28

you as the message whisperer, because I work that's I feel

Ian Altman: 00:35:32

like that notion, that notion of, just like coming up with

Ian Altman: 00:35:34

stuff that sticks, is is incredibly valuable. So thanks

Ian Altman: 00:35:38

for sharing this. I can't wait to read the book and and I'm

Ian Altman: 00:35:42

sure our listeners will love it as well. If it's, if it's half

Ian Altman: 00:35:47

as good as find your red thread, then I guess find your red

Ian Altman: 00:35:51

thread would be twice as good as this. That's not the right

Ian Altman: 00:35:53

that's not the right example. But if it's, but if it's, if

Ian Altman: 00:35:58

it's half as good, it's still going to be amazing. So, and I'm

Ian Altman: 00:36:01

sure it's even better. So thanks so much for joining me. Thank

Tamsen Webster: 00:36:04

you so much. Ian, you.