Have you ever felt imposter syndrome because of your age?

Ziad Ahmed (he/him) is an American-Muslim-Bangladeshi entrepreneur and speaker. He's the CEO/Co-Founder of JUV Consulting, a Generation Z consultancy that has collaborated with over 20 Fortune 500 companies, gaining recognition from the New York Times and earning him a spot on Forbes' 2019 #30Under30 list at the age of 19.

Severn Cullis-Suzuki gained international attention at the age of 12 when she delivered her famous speech at the UN Earth Summit in Rio in 1992. The speech earned her the moniker "The Girl Who Silenced the World for 5 Minutes." and she received recognition in the United Nations Environment Programme's Global 500 Roll of Honour. Severn has continued to speak to audiences around the world about the necessity of keeping the future in mind for environmental sustainability and has published several books including, ‘The Day You Will Change the World’.

In the third episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover sits down with Ziad Ahmed and Severn Cullis-Suzuki to explore how it feels to wear the label of a 'youth activist' and the messiness and nuance that comes with it. The episode ends with a juicy climate confession from both Ziad and Severn!

”I believe that so many more of us deserve a seat at the table.” - Ziad Ahmed

“There’s something really powerful about young people standing up for future generations.” - Severn Cullis-Suzuki

Follow Ziad:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ziadahmed/

Website: https://www.ziadahmed.me/

Follow Severn:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/severncullissuzuki/

Website: severncullissuzuki.com

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Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”.

What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone?

Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family.

See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions.

After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

Last week on Confessions of a Climate Activist, we explored what it’s like to feel like an outsider within climate spaces; imposter syndrome; and how to make for a more representative, inclusive movement.

Today we’re diving into youth activism. When I was 11, I discovered documentaries: I remember sitting glued to my computer screen, staring at scenes of deforestation, pollution, and people losing their homes to flooding and fires. I remember feeling sadness, and anger; but also a fiery determination. I declared to my parents over dinner that I wanted to become an activist — without even knowing what that word really meant.

Yet our culture’s relationship to it is… complex. At times, we’re celebrated and called ‘inspiring’. Often, we’re dismissed as ‘naïve’, labelled ‘the snowflake generation’. And the contradictions *within* the movement are even more confusing; I often feel like I’m back in middle school, complete with cliques, bullying and popularity contests.

In this episode, I wanted to dive into what it means to be a youth activist today; and understand why the career of a youth activist often has such a short expiration date. Before we dive in, let’s hear from our Force of Nature community.

Community member 1:

My name is Zupara from Ghana. I was already dealing with not being perfect and eloquent as an activist until I was asked about my age when I was seeking for funds for a project. A part of me felt disappointed to know we have leaders that still base the excellence of people on their age or gender. Our leaders should start appreciating that our generation is on the move to create the change that they are failing to create instead of limiting us. As a young person in climate activism, it can be really challenging to keep the fight going. I think it's a combination of how much news and information we consume, plus the challenges of trying to buy a house, climb the career ladder, even start a family and still not feeling like you're doing enough.

Community member 2:

My name is Jaden and I'm recording this from Vancouver, Canada, despite being a very optimistic and... passionate person, it's become quite difficult at times to process the world and the climate crisis that we're in. Oftentimes I feel as a young person, even if you have knowledge and awareness of issues, we're so not taken seriously in like the broader global context despite often having the most innovative creative ideas that could actually become very effective solutions. We're often brushed off the stage in spite of our potentially incredible ideas.

Community member 3:

My name is Leena and I'm from India. Along with my dedication came a lingering feeling of inadequacy. Will anyone take me seriously because of my age? In certain spaces, I was met with skepticism solely because I was a young climate activist. Some doubted my ability to comprehend complex environmental issues or dismissed my ideas as idealistic. To combat imposter syndrome, I sought support from fellow activists. who had experienced similar feelings. Their guidance helped me understand that my age did not define the validity or impact of my activism. They reminded me that youth perspectives are invaluable and that collective action is essential for tackling global issues.

Clover Hogan:

Something that really stuck out for me here is when Jaden mentioned young people being dismissed; which relates to what Leena shared, about being met with skepticism. When we asked our community if they’d experienced imposter syndrome because of their age, 87% said yes. I’m keen to dig into this further: to understand the ageism that young people experience when dealing with our planet’s big, complex problems, but also understand how some of the feedback we receive — that we’re naïve, or too demanding — may be internalised. To help shed some light, I reached out to my friend Ziad Ahmed. Growing up as an American-Muslim-Bangladeshi, Ziad was aware from an early age of cultural and racial stereotypes… and so at the age of 13, he started his non-profit — Redefy — to promote diversity and inclusivity. Now, he’s the CEO and founder of JUV, a Gen-Z marketing agency. I could think of no one better to kickstart this conversation. Let’s dive in.

Clover Hogan:

Today we're going to be talking about youth activism, which I'm very excited about. I would say that you're probably like, you would consider yourself a retired youth activist at this point?

Ziad Ahmed:

You know, maybe something like that. Something like that.

Clover Hogan:

Okay. Well, we can, we can dive into that in a little bit, but before we get there, um, and before we talk about youth activism, the good, the bad, and also the ugly, um, I just want to talk about like being a young person in general, cause from my perspective is very much like your playground. It's where a lot of your energy and work focuses. Yeah, for sure. But as an entry point ahead of this conversation, we asked some of our community members, what they feel about being a young person, trying to create change in society. And one of the themes that came up was this feeling of imposter syndrome. And when we asked young people, do you ever experience imposter syndrome? 87% of them said they had. So as a starting point, I'd love to get your take on why you think so many people, so many young people feel this way.

Ziad Ahmed:

Look, I want to ground anything that I say in this conversation, any conversation, in my privilege. Right? Like I have been so tremendously privileged as Clover knows, because she's lived in my house, right? I've been so tremendously privileged in my journey. And so I want to be honest and transparent in so far as like I am of the 13%, right? I am of the 13% who- would not say that I've particularly encountered imposter syndrome from the perspective that I was really raised by my mom to believe that I could do anything, that I should do anything. Right? At a very young age, you know, started being in rooms that I didn't know existed. Right? With industry leaders and with decision makers and with politicians. And my perspective was not that I got there and was like, I don't belong. My perspective was, these are the people in charge? Right? And so many more of us belong. Right? Because my perspective was that I was there and they looked at me like I wasn't sort of an anomaly. Right? Like where is this kid with his way that he talks and the way that he feels? Like, where did he come from? And I'm sitting there thinking, like, I know I'm the lamest young person I know, not the coolest or smartest. Or like I have friends like Clover who are much more qualified than I to have a seat at the table. And so my takeaway from being in a lot of those rooms. was not the imposter syndrome, it was really whatever the opposite of imposter syndrome is, right, which is like that I believe so many more of us deserve a seat at the table. And that's what inspired me to start Juv Consulting to do the work that I do now. And so I certainly think privilege has played a huge role in me being a part of 13%, but I also think on top of that, certainly as a young person who started a company and nonprofit when I was quite young, as you know, a lot of people love talking down to us and love making us feel like there's no way that we could have earned our seat and that we should be quiet and wait our turn. And I certainly have encountered that a lot in my journey as any of us who started young have. And I think that it's very easy to listen to those voices.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. And the kind of like, whenever I'm told I can't go into a certain space, it's like, well, why the hell not? I'm gonna make sure that I do show up in that space. Yeah, yeah. But you alluded to a number of the people you have encountered in your journey who did dismiss you. Why do you think that is so often the response to young people who are super passionate and super vocal?

Ziad Ahmed:

Yeah, I mean, I think you see this all the time, right? Like think about student loan debt cancellation, where people are like, I paid my debt, so you have to pay your debt. Like the idea that you get to have it better or different than I had it is wrong, which is like a really bad selfish take. Right. But I think that's somewhat of what it is. A lot of people grew up in ecosystems where as young people, they were really mistreated. They were really taken advantage of, they were really exploited, they were really unheard, and they paid their dues. And they had to take on a lot to get to where they are in their careers now. And I honor that, I respect that. But I think it's a bad selfish take to think just because you went through that means that the people after you should have to go through that too, instead of maybe we should all try to work so that the people after us get to have an easier, better, more uplifting, more empowering journey than we have. I hope. that my kids do not have to encounter the same roadblocks that I have, right? I hope that everyone's kids, right, are better off than our generation has been. Whether that's in terms of climate, right, or whether that's in terms of the workforce, I hope that things get better. I think today there's so much more visibility of, like, quote-unquote, youth activists, right? And I remember when I started out, like, 11, 12 years old, there was no one really my age who was, like, visible to me, who was, like, out there. being vocal, trying to change the world. And from a personal standpoint, I never used that language.

Clover Hogan:

For me, I declared to my parents over dinner that I was an environmentalist. And then when I was 16, I was like, I'm an activist. And hilariously, it wasn't until I met you that I was like, oh wow, I can be a youth activist. That did not even occur to me as a thing. And I think in part because for me, I'd shied away from my age. My first job was when I was 17. And I distinctly remember scaling the ranks quickly in my work because I was good at what I did. When my coworkers found out how old I was, they actively took responsibilities away from me. And so that was my first- Or took auto credit for your work. Yeah, yeah, one or the other. One or the other. And so that was a very direct experience of this kind of ageism, which I hear so many young people talking about. And yet meeting you was this real kind of aha moment of someone who, in fact, the opposite of shying away from your age at that time really leaned into- being a young person, being really vocal. I'd love to hear, was there, even if you might've retired this language now, was there a definitive moment in which you thought I'm a youth activist?

Ziad Ahmed:

When I started REDEFY, when I was at the end of eighth grade, we launched and beginning of ninth grade, I didn't know other young people on my timeline or in my community who had started nonprofits or things like this.

Clover Hogan:

And can you quickly define what the purpose of REDEFY was?

Ziad Ahmed:

Yeah, so when I was, I'm American Muslim, I'm a... political progressive, I'm a person of color, started this, you know, nonprofit sort of at the end of it, we weren't formally a nonprofit when we launched, right, but like eventually became but when we launched, right, we were a by teens 14 social justice advocacy group, where basically we created resources and information to make communities and schools more inclusive and equitable. And that was founded because I saw in my hallways like my little privilege bubble, right, how kids are being otherized because of who society thought they should be. Right. And I saw that only getting worse in high school. And I wanted to do something about it. right, so that we could actually humanize our perception of the other and build community. And I had no idea what the hell I was doing, but I've always been like an outspoken kid who had too many opinions and was like, let's do something about it. This feels wrong. This feels like something we can write. Then the world, to your point, started calling me things. The American media apparatus, like, started reaching out, right? Because like local, I was very fortunate and privileged to be from Princeton, New Jersey, where there's a thriving local press. And so they would like cover the things we were doing at a very local level. But then those started being read by bigger journalists. And then suddenly, you know, MTV News writes this profile on me and my organization referring to me or, you know, calling me things that necessarily like I had never called myself. Right. But that then became my brand. Right. And that's what I was known for. And there were these listicles. Right. And all of these things. And while, of course, I was active and loud, I wasn't sacrificing very much to do anything that I did. I was safe. and I was privileged and I didn't risk very much, right? And I think that as I'm older now, I probably use a different vocabulary to talk about myself because I understand more so how I'm not risking or sacrificing very much. But I mean, I care any less about the issues, right? Or I'm less active in trying to tackle them. It just means that I'm more conscious of my positionality and my privilege. And I'm also more conscious of the fact that I don't need to be the one. saying every message. Like I'm most often the wrong messenger. Whereas I think when I was younger, I felt like I needed to be the message for all things and I speak out about everything. And I think as I've gotten older, I realized that like my role as a person of privilege can be more behind the scenes amplify folks, right?And can be more to like facilitate dialogue and connections rather than always have the microphone because I'm often the wrong messenger and I often probably took up too much space in ways that I shouldn't have and was too overeager. And... in some ways probably liked the attention too much. When I started that, I didn't know that there was attention to be gained from this and then I started to get it and I probably liked it in ways that I wasn't fully acknowledging and now I can look back and reflect and be like, no, that was probably a false prioritization of how I should have been spending my time and I think I'm probably now more thoughtful with both how I spend my time and how I refer to myself and how I can leverage my privilege to hopefully show up for others in ways that don't always center my own narrative.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because even as you're talking... there's this really clear kind of dichotomy in how increasingly we treat young people in society. On the one hand, young people are clearly at this disadvantage where we're either being locked out of politics or I know it's more common in America, but if you're a young person, you don't have experience, you can't get a job, you're expected to do unpaid internships for years at a time, you're dismissed, you're branded as a snowflake. There is this very palpable disadvantage. And then on the other side, in the past few years, I mean, really, it feels like with the kind of rise of Greta Thunberg and very visible activists, there's this sort of hero worship thing that happens as well. And I think it kind of glosses over a lot of the really unintended consequences of activism. And I think I only recently started reflecting on that in my own journey from the perspective of, I didn't really have like, the kind of childhood that I would necessarily want my own kids to have. Like with all of the privileges and opportunities I was afforded.

Ziad Ahmed:

And I better be their godfather. Just putting that on the record, on this podcast.

Clover Hogan:

You've already stated you're going to be like the godparent. You're going to be like officiating the wedding.

Ziad Ahmed:

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, but yeah, it's recorded now. It's official.

Clover Hogan:

But like, I only remember myself as an activist. Like I declared myself an activist when I was 11. Like that. is probably the biggest part of my identity even today is like this person. And like, I don't, sometimes I don't know who I am, like without that. Like I started introducing rules where on like weekends I won't talk about like climate change because I wanna carve out like an identity and personality for myself that isn't just like being irritated and angry and like frustrated and vocal all the time. But it is just like, it's weird how we create these kind of like frames of activists and how that also feeds into perfection of activism, which we're talking about a lot in this season, the gatekeeping around activism. You have quite visibly migrated away from using the term activist and using certain language.

Ziad Ahmed:

That's right.

Clover Hogan:

What has that experience been like?

Ziad Ahmed:

I was at dinner a year ago with 10 young people my age, who we all know each other from this program that honored youth nonprofit founders, activists when we were in high school. Eight of the 10 of us now run for a profit company. Right. And I think that's a powerful indictment of what has happened to your point around there, like not being a clear pathway. And I think of a lot of people feeling burned out by the space. Right. Because I think a lot of people, I don't know that I necessarily put myself in this box, but I think a lot of people have felt to a certain extent that they tried to do good work, but we're still told by a lot of other people that it wasn't good enough. And they were like, fuck it. It's not even worth it. I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on this, you know? Right. But like, I think that is a sentiment that exists, right? That oftentimes... we are the harshest critics of our own, right? Or the people that are right in front of us. And so by self-identifying in a lot of spaces of other people who care equally about the issues, sometimes you find yourself in spaces that are hypercritical where a lot of the discourse is like, you're not doing enough, no, you're not doing enough, no, your theory of change is wrong, no, your theory of change is wrong. And for those who are organizers, for those who are doing this work, it is incredibly exhausting work, right? And incredibly emotionally laborious work. And I do know a lot of my peers have been burned out by being in those spaces because they were taking a lot of kind of emotional labor in their day to day and then still being met by so many folks who are questioning their integrity or are questioning their efficacy, right? And so subsequently, I think it was a choice that many people have made to be like, then I'm out, right? And I'm gonna choose a different theory of change because to constantly be met with this never enough attitude wasn't filling the cup anymore for a lot of people. I think my particular, like the four properties that I'm in is it's over self congrats. overly self-congratulatory, right? You go to these business conferences and people are like, you're changing the world and it's like, no, I'm not and no, you're not, right? Like, you know what I mean? And there's an obsession with celebration and self congratulatory as I think in for proper places and I think the opposite is often true, right? In more advocacy circles.

And maybe that's like a good thing from the perspective that like we should be really intentional and thoughtful and advocacy about like, making sure that we're representing communities and actually advocating for the right policies that uplift as many people as possible. But I do think that vocabulary and rhetoric has been used to push people out. And I don't know that has actually served some of the movements from my perspective, because I believe that while certainly not, like I should not always have the access to the mic and I've learned that in a big way, right? I do think our movements are empowered and as many of us as possible participate, right? And I do think that there is a sense of when we push people out, they actually then start becoming hostile towards, right? And then we've actually not only lost a participant, we lost an ally, right? And now we've created an enemy. From my perspective, there are many valid theories of change. And I think that change happens when we all work together and leverage our various expertise, our various access, our various skill sets to help each other, right? Because whether we like it or not, government exists tomorrow, business exists tomorrow, protests exists tomorrow, all of these vehicles still exist tomorrow. If enough of us who share values work together, perhaps we can meaningfully change the system. I think that oftentimes there is not enough dialogue or community building across people with different theories of change. We have to believe that we're coming at it from a decent place, otherwise we're never gonna get anywhere, right? When you always believe the other person is out to get you, you just end up creating a system where you're out to get each other. Right? And it doesn't serve anybody. And so I think that like, that has definitely happened. I think social media is a really horrible place to have meaningful dialogue. Right? It's a really, really bad tool to have legitimate conversation with people who disagree with you. Let's take each other as an example. I don't agree with everything you do. You don't agree with everything I do. But somehow it would feel like bullying if I commented on your post and said that publicly. Yeah. Right? Even though like... It might be a healthy, good thing to do, right? But what does it look like to be able to disagree in public while still being kind? And what I always say about myself is that I think when I look back on my own journey, a lot of people are like, oh, you're so great. And I'm like, no, no one should look up to me and no one should follow in my footsteps. I think I have been more glorified and more vilified than I ever deserve. But when I look back, I also... It's hard for me to indict anybody else, but I feel like I did it myself. I cared more about being right than being kind. I lived that truth. I wasn't kind to the people who I saw were problematic in my hallways. I was mean. And I was probably right. I was on the right side of history in some of these issues, but I didn't communicate or give anyone a chance to have a doubt or treat people with compassion because I was so obsessed with being right on the issue because I was so angry. How did you not get it? I regret that. And I regret that. And when I think about the space in general, is what I always say is that I think I care. And I definitely think that this is true of a lot of my peers, at least I know personally in the space. We cared so much about changing the world. We sometimes forgot to change our world. If I want a better world, I think that starts with being a kind person. Right? Like being, and you know this, like I could be a better brother. I could be a better son. And I think those are really important places to start. And I think that like, oftentimes as I was so obsessed with these big meaty issues, which are and still are so important, were and are so, so important, I lost myself and I lost the practice of a lot of these values.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah. Soundbite machines, yeah.

Ziad Ahmed:

I don't know about that.

Clover Hogan:

All right. Before we get to the existential, I'm conscious of time, and I want to squeeze in one more question. So every episode we are asking folks to share. They're climate confessions. So in the interest of like being more honest and like being more vulnerable, what are the inconsistent parts of ourselves that we maybe don't want to air in public? So I'm going to share my climate confession and then you can share yours, big or small. Okay. My climate confession. So a couple of days ago, I was wearing a really cute fit and someone came over and complimented me. They're like, oh my God, I love this ensemble. And I was like, yes, like it's fully thrifted. Like I got it from my favorite charity shop. And like, as the words were leaving my mouth, I realized that I had in fact bought like half of my outfit from Urban Outfitters. So that's case in point of me being an inconsistent activist. Do you have any climate confessions you'd like to share?

Ziad Ahmed:

Like all of them. Okay, like the one that I'm feeling really guilty about right now is running transport. Like I fly a lot, right? I fly a lot, which. I try to like not eat red meat to offset. It doesn't offset, right? I'm trying though, right? I've like really stopped taking the subway and I feel guilty about it because I started walking and biking but now that I'm like not in the habit of taking the subway when it's like something's really far just like uber and Lyft and I feel terrible about it but like that is definitely something that I'm feeling guilty about because like I used to take the train like subway and then also train between New Haven and New York all the time and now like I don't remember the last time I've been on a train and I almost feel guilty about that because like because like a train is like the best mode of transport from like a climate perspective. And I do walk a lot, don't get me wrong, I walk a lot, but I walk most of the time, but I do feel guilty about that. But I mean, I think to this point, I think this is a really beautiful point that you're making that none of us are perfect, right? And to me, my hope is that living with integrity looks like trying and looks like being honest about your trying.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, I also don't blame you for not taking the train with America's public transport system. Thank you, thank you for saying that. No, you're right, and Europe, and Europe. I take the train everywhere, but you're right. You're right about that. Oh, thank you so much, Ziad.

Ziad Ahmed:

This has been so wholesome. I love you, my friend. I appreciate you. I love you. I adore you. And I'm grateful for you for having me.

Clover Hogan:

Ziad really helped me understand why so many passionate young people end up getting burnt out or struggle to turn their advocacy into a career. I was keen to hear from someone who was the exception to this rule; someone who managed to translate their personal activism, into their life’s work. So, I reached out to Severn Cullis-Suzuki, who’s considered by many to be the very first “youth activist”. Here she is.

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

My name is Severn Cullis-Suzuki and I'm an environmental activist through and through. I'm currently executive director of the David Suzuki Foundation, which is an environmental organization here in Canada. And we use science and also following indigenous knowledge and context towards finding solutions for environmental problems.

Clover Hogan:

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

Well, I have a very clear memory of that event because it's a life memory. It's something that I had prepared for over a year before for, and then also it's just, you know, it's now a touchstone event in my life that really changed my life. So I remember the feeling of really knowing exactly why I was there. I was there with four other children. who are my friends and my sister, my little sister. And we traveled there from British Columbia and Canada to tell the world leaders how we felt and that we were scared about what we were hearing about our future. So we had worked for two weeks in a booth at the Global Forum, which was where all the NGOs were milling about. And we were just talking to people, giving them our message. We started getting invited to deliver our message at small side events. And my father, who is a well-known activist, was invited to speak at different events. And he would always give us 20 minutes at the end of his speech, wherever he was, and say, the real reason I'm here is because I'm a father and you need to hear this message. And then he would give us 20 minutes. So we would each have a few minutes to deliver our thoughts and feelings. And so we're very well-versed in what we wanted to say. and how we wanted to say it. So when we finally, after two weeks of that very hard work and doing our homework at night, we got an opportunity to speak to a plenary session of the UN by complete fluke, because someone had bumped into someone who'd heard us speak and then someone had dropped out of the plenary session, so there was a gap. And they thought they'd put some kids on the plenary. And so I remember this feeling of just total calm, knowing exactly why I was there and what I had to say when I got up to the podium. And then... Yeah, all of that came forward. I remember we got a standing ovation. It was myself and actually there were four, three other children, three other youth from different countries, not of my gang. I was the only rep of our gang, but there were three other youth and we got a standing ovation at the end. So I could tell by the room that people were really receiving our message. And so I had this real sense of, you know, that we accomplished what we set out to do. We shared our message. It was received. You could tell some people were crying, it really landed on the adults in the room. And so that was, it was a very powerful moment.

Clover Hogan:

First up, I just want to congratulate your dad because that's super badass to really like hand the microphone over and create space for young people at a time when it was less normal to do so. I'd love to hear, you know, what was the, for context, what was the significant of the summit itself?

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

Well, they were talking about it as a meeting that would change the course of humankind. We already knew back in the 80s and 90s that we were on a collision course with nature. And in fact, that year in preparation for that meeting, the world scientists of the world came together and formed the Union of Concerned Scientists, and they drafted this document issuing a warning to humanity and saying that we were actually on a collision course with nature, and that we had to completely change our ways. So... This meeting was to address this and to talk about environment and of course, development, because development is always a conversation about our consumption. You know, who is it that is using up all the resources in the planet? Who is it that's doing all the polluting? Well, it's the developed nations. And then we've set this bar for developing. We call them developing countries, which I find so insulting to become like us. And if they become like us, you know, our planet can't sustain it. So this, yeah, it was gonna be the largest gathering of heads of state ever held, and it was gonna, you know, chart our course. So it was supposed to be a big deal.

Clover Hogan:

Going from that moment of eliciting that response from all these adults in the room who are giving you a standing ovation, who are clearly moved by what you're saying. What was your experience in the days, the weeks, and the years that followed that really pivotal cornerstone moment?

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

In the 80s and early 90s, everybody cared about the environment. You know, politicians call themselves environmentalists. They call themselves green. We're at a moment where it seemed like, you know, the world was ready to make a big change. push by corporations. governance has been huge for humankind. Of course, big money has always influenced government, but it has reached this other epic level where all of a sudden we have this complete pivoting and really focused on economic growth. So there's this concern and this narrative that actually what really is important is money. And so it's taken us a generation to get back to where we were. And part of the reason that we're back to the high level of concern is because planet is telling us we have to pay attention. You know, at Rio, it was a foundational summit in that it began the, you know, the foundational frameworks for global governance around climate. So it started the United Nations Framework Convention for Climate Change, which is what we follow for the COPs that happen every year about climate. It also started the Convention on Biodiversity, and we just, we don't see meetings as regularly, to biodiversity on the planet. So it started these big meetings that we see regularly. And so I really, you know, I thought, okay, great, you know, I'm getting my voice out there. I wanted to just continue and use this platform that I suddenly had because people saw my speech and this was before the internet. So it's incredible that people were sending around videos like actual physical VHS recordings. And so that's how people were seeing it and hearing it by seeing physical copies. So I went around the world speaking and going to conferences and trying to get my message out. And after a while I realized, because I started seeing the same people at these meetings and realizing... Oh, we think we're doing something by going to these meetings and just having meetings. And I also was just so conscious of the pollution that I was creating by traveling to these conferences and these big events. And so after about a decade of this, I stopped. I was like, I'm out. This isn't working.

Clover Hogan:

Was there a really definitive time when you kind of decided to retire that label of youth activist?

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

Clover Hogan:

I do think though, you know, coming back to what is the same, you know, young people always have been on the front lines of any revolution. Young people have always been the warriors of any society. So, you know, young people are still fulfilling that identity. And I think there's a real, there's something really powerful about young people standing up for future generations because adult generations have forgotten that, have lost that, or are justifying why that is. And so we still need young people to carry that flame and they're still doing that and that really fills my fills my heart. You know looking back on your experience having kind of transitioned out of you know quote unquote youth activism and doing the work you do today, what might you say to your younger self, having navigated what you've navigated? And what might you say to the young people who are feeling really disillusioned and who are maybe losing some of their faith in humanity and our ability to solve these problems?

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

My advice is to go where your energy is. I mean that’s one thing that happens when you get into activism, you get in and there’s such an urgency culture. You know, the planet is on fire, people are dying. People are experiencing such opression and Hardship and it's just so unfair. Staying in that urgency as you say, you know within this kind of toxic culture and trying to change it I mean, it's exhausting and it's you can really damage yourself. So equally important is to follow what we're fighting for is to practice what we're fighting for And to follow our energy and what we are passionate about and what gives us energy when I ask young people You know, like what gives you energy the things they say are beautiful The things they say are like my friends, I love to dance, I love to make music, art, growing things. They're things that don't require money or capital, the capital economy. And those things are under threat. The capitalist way of being is trying to make us only do things that are economic interactions and it's really fragmented all our relationships everywhere. And there's a reason we're all feeling burnt out even beyond activism. I think this culture is promoting humans feeling exhausted and burnt out and frazzled and our brain's not working very well. But when we look at what gives us energy, those beautiful things that young people know so well, those things are also good for the planet. They're good for society. They're healthy for our bodies. They are the answer. I'm not even certain whether all of the speeches I've made. and all of the kind of fighting against. I don't even know what the impacts of those have been, but I do know that practicing culture, practicing friendship, practicing joy, practicing art, those things have had very tangible effects at the least for me and my body.

Clover Hogan:

That is absolutely beautiful, and I love to end there. We can model the world that we want to. create. It's as simple as that. Sivan, I have one final cheeky question for you, which is a question I've posed to everyone. In the interest of normalizing imperfect activism, we're asking each guest to share a climate confession. So something that makes you feel a little inconsistent or a little hypocritical, maybe. I'd say my climate confession. My most recent timely one would probably be that I've been tweeting loads about the most recent IPCC report. without having read said IPCC report, without having read the last IPCC report, because I do just find it very overwhelming. And I'm like, I know it's bad. I don't need the detailed analysis of how bad it is. So that's my confession. Is there a confession you would like to share?

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

Mine is just flying, like travel. What are we gonna do about travel? I mean we cannot keep flying around the planet like this. We actually just can’t. We need to have you know a total halt on flying, like we saw during COVID, we can do it. And then just a normalisation of train travel, of travelling overland. You know, Canada, our railroad system is just in ruins. It’s just so, it’s just too, you know it’s more expensive to take the train and extremely slow. You know, we need fast train systems, transit systems with Internet so you can work. So my confession is that I still have flown, I've flown a couple of times since COVID and we can't do that anymore. We can't actually do that anymore if we want to actually live in a climate-friendly world.

Clover Hogan:

I hear that. It makes you feel any better. We interviewed Christiana Figueres and hers was the same, it was the flying.

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

It doesn’t make me feel any better, it makes me feel worse. We’re all doing it, we’re all environmental activists and we’re all flying around the planet and we can't.

Clover Hogan:

I know, I know.

Severn Cullis-Suzuki:

It’s crazy.

Clover Hogan:

No, but I hear that, I relate to that one. Appreciate the honesty and I just appreciate you showing up for this conversation, Severn, it's been absolutely wonderful and I think gonna be really empowering and inspiring for young people to look at someone who has turned this into their life's work. So thank you so much for taking the time.

Clover Hogan:

When I think back to my 11-year-old self, declaring to my parents over dinner that I wanted to become an activist, I *wish* I could have heard this conversation. I feel like it would have helped me avoid a number of mistakes… from discounting my own perspectives because I was young, to not placing a value on my time and contributions.

Speaking to Ziad and Severn have also shown me the structural changes that we need to make. We need to ensure young people can truly contribute to decision-making, rather than merely being handed the microphone. We also need to help young people translate their activism into long-term, sustainable careers: which means making them financially feasible.

So how do you make money as an activist? To answer that question, next week I’ll be chatting to my friend Isaias Hernandez: an environmental educator who has spoken openly about coming under fire for the ways in which he funds his work.

In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content, you might want to check out episode 3 from Season 2. I talk to yet another trailblazing youth activist — Melati Wijsen — who at 12 started a global movement to take on plastic pollution. When you’ve listened, drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment.

If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website.

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This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.