DEI is under serious threat in a "post-Woke" world.

Is it still relevant? Does it have to lead to shame?

Can we promote diversity without creating zero-sum dynamics of winners and losers?

Today's guest, Winitha Bonney, takes on DEI challenges with a clear and compassionate worldview grounded in empathy.

Which, in her telling, is what DEI is all about.

Ms Bonney helps me understand the importance of cultural context, the challenges of navigating discomfort and shame, and the ethical obligations of organizations to create a more just and inclusive world.

AI Thinks These are the Key Takeaways, and Who am I to Argue?

• There's a lot of work to do in DEI.
• Cultural context is crucial in understanding DEI.
• DEI is often oversimplified in corporate settings.
• Navigating discomfort and shame is essential for progress.
• Corporate responsibility must align with ethical obligations.
• The future of DEI holds both challenges and hopes.
• Understanding different cultural perspectives enriches DEI efforts.
• Shame and guilt can hinder effective DEI work.
• Inclusion should focus on equitable resource distribution.
• The evolution of DEI is a response to societal changes.

Links

Winitha.com (cool URL, no?)

Back with another conversation about DEI, about diversity, equity, inclusion.

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And it's a big topic these days because it is under attack in the United States and

elsewhere around the world.

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And there has been a backlash to it.

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And I think a lot of the backlash has been caused because people who have not been

marginalized have felt shame and have been asked to feel shame and have been asked.

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to examine their privilege and do things that don't feel good.

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And Brene Brown said, and we quoted in this episode coming up, you can't serve while

holding on to shame.

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And so if the goal here is service, if the goal here is to make a better world for

everyone, then how do we deal with realities?

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How do we deal with history?

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How do we deal with the fact that some of us have unearned privileges?

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that we were born on third base with a silver spoon in our mouth, whatever.

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So a conversation today is with Winitha Bonney who is a DEI expert, a consultant who comes

into organizations and helps make them more inclusive to help people belong, to help them

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become more diverse.

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And what she talks about is that the heart of it is empathy.

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The heart of all of this is considering how other people feel.

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And that's a way of putting it.

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that takes the shame out of the equation.

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And I hope you really enjoy this conversation.

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hope it helps you in your life and your organizations.

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And I hope it helps move the idea of empathy, of just caring for each other, regardless of

political differences, this caring for each other, being curious about each other and

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wanting the world to be a place that works for all of us.

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So without further ado.

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Winitha Bonney, welcome to the Plant Yourself podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm excited for this conversation.

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There's so much going on in the world.

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For those of you not watching the video, that was a face.

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There's a lot of work to do.

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There's a lot of strides forward.

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There's a lot of things that look like they're moving maybe backwards.

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Maybe we could begin by just introducing yourself.

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Yeah, so I've had a background working in corporate in a range of C-suite roles.

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I also have entrepreneurial background, so I've started several businesses.

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When I exited the C-suite path, I then turned my attention to working primarily around

diversity and inclusion.

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So at the meta level, it's really about change and changing culture.

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changing how we lead, changing how we do business.

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And then a lot of that work has actually focused on diversity, equity and inclusion.

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Hmm.

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So what in your background, your work background got you interested in diversity, equity

and inclusion?

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It these days it seems like it's a redheaded stepchild to things that people really care

about in the C-suite growth, sales, profits, market expansion, global traction.

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What made you say this is where I want to go and plant the flag?

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I don't know so much if it was me planting the flag, but more like people planting the

flag for me.

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So when I started my practice, I started with that work because I had already been doing

that work out in the community when I was working in corporate.

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So I was doing what we would call social or economic inclusion.

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work and I was doing that pro bono for many, many, many, many, many, many years.

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Um, for probably at that time, probably about 15 years.

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And so I already had an understanding of what inclusion diversity was.

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And, um, I guess people had sort of known me not just in my corporate work, but had known

me in my community work for doing that.

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And so people started coming to me asking if I could do that in their corporate

organizations.

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And so.

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I'm a big believer in following the signs and doing the work that I've been called to do

rather than the work that I think I should be doing.

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And that's where it started.

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think the roots of it was planted a lot earlier.

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So for whatever reason as a child I had grown up watching, my parents didn't...

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intentionally chooses for me, I would usually, you know, switch on the, you know, the TV

back in the day when you turned the sort of dial and, seven channels.

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Yep.

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And, you know, I watched a lot of things on the civil rights movement in the U S I think

that planted a lot of seeds for me.

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And then I also had my own experience of, you know, racism as, a young child.

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And so I think those two things together then got me asking a couple of questions.

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And it wasn't until I moved to Canada and then to the US and started working there that I

think for the first time I actually saw people that had similar skin tones and skin colors

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to me working in corporate.

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And then that really, I guess, brought it up to a much more conscious level of...

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hey, actually in corporate leadership, I am the only these experiences aren't normal, like

I assume they were.

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And I can either complain about it or I can do something about it.

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So I decided to come back to Australia and do something and do something about it.

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And so that's kind of where those threads came together.

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Yeah.

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So were you in the C-suite before you got to North America?

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No, I was in leadership.

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I was in leadership roles.

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I was in senior leadership roles, but I hadn't quite got to C-suite yet.

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I was working with people, so being, so I guess their roles more were what you would call

like vice president, so VP.

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So I was the right hand to them.

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And so because I was

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privileged to be in those spaces then I was like oh actually there's a lot more, well

there's still a lot of work to be done but compared to where Australia was at at that time

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this is back in 2007 so where Australia was back then I was like oh like

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It's like I saw my color for the second time.

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The first time was when I was in school.

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I was probably about six or seven years old and the second time was when I went to the

States.

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When you say you saw your color, what does that mean for those of us who have never had to

see our color?

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Yeah, I guess a difference.

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So I remember when I was in school, I was linking arms with my best friend.

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I think I was like six or seven at the time.

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And for the first time I saw the difference, which was she had white skin, I had brown

skin.

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I remember, remember vividly remember that moment.

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I was like, oh, I have brown skin because I operated in mostly white environments.

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So unconscious unconsciously, my brain just didn't register that, I'm different.

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I have a different skin color than the people around me.

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So the second time was in the US, I was actually taking a dance class and the room was

full of black and brown people, like full.

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I looked around the room and I was like,

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room is full of black and brown people.

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Everyone's got skin color just like me if not darker.

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And I saw that and that made me very conscious and aware of like in the workplace the

spaces that I had had seen it which was in the work that I was doing at the time as well

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as spaces that I hadn't seen it which was the career that I had to date in Australia so

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In Australia, when I was in these corporate environments, I didn't see a difference

between me and the other people.

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But then when I was in an environment where I was...

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had the opposite experience.

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It's like I actually saw the difference and that was the color of my skin.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, there's a there's a lot of, let's say, sort of, I would say, reactionary

talk about like not seeing skin color.

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know, people, you know, white people are like, well, I'm colorblind.

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It shouldn't matter.

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But it sounds like to some extent that was a little bit of your experience that you like,

like, this I'm not noticing.

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It doesn't matter where you like.

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Did it not matter or were you just not picking up on ways in which it did?

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I was not picking up on it because it wasn't talked about a home.

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I would say we grew up in a very westernized home.

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In my culture, the nickname for it is whitewashed.

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So, a schlanken.

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So I, just, yeah.

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Which means that, you know, the other term is a coconut.

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So, you know, you're brown on the outside, but white on the inside.

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So whitewashed, being whitewashed is saying, which means like we're being washed.

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white, so we live and breathe as a white person as opposed to our cultural identity.

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So that's not specific to Schlanken people, but it's, I guess, amongst POC, people of

color communities.

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It's a term that's used.

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Some people find it quite racist, brown and black people included.

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And so I grew up in that environment and my cousins would often tease me.

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They would use

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those two terms, I'm a coconut or that I'm whitewashed.

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And I just didn't really think anything of it.

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so, cause my cousins grew up in an environment in a community where there was majority

black and brown folk in Australia.

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But I lived on the other side of the city and I lived in a white community and my parents

are Christian, they're not Hindu and so.

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We went to a church and so just the environment that we grew up in, we didn't talk about

race.

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We didn't have conversations around that.

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And I grew up in a very white community.

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I was the only person of color.

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Me and a person called Esther, Esther was Asian.

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We were like the only non-white folk in our entire primary school.

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And I remember that because we took a whole school photo and I was like.

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Find the Brian Brown dot, that's me.

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So I think when you are in those environments, you can tend to assimilate and it wasn't

until I was older and I think particularly here in Australia, engaging more with First

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Nations communities, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities, that I then

started understanding the importance of culture through their eyes.

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through their lived experiences for myself of like, actually, what is my culture?

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What is my cultural identity?

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And asking questions about that.

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So here in the US, think, you know, DEI gets simplified to everyone should have a chance.

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like, you know, so you look at the corporate website and you look at the stock photos and

there's got to be the Asian guy and the black lady and the, you know, someone in a

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wheelchair.

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Like, that's like we're all but there's no there's not really any talk of culture.

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So it's like everyone gets to play in this westernized capitalist framework.

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To what extent in the work that you do and in your vision of it is DEI about just getting

everyone into the same room?

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Or are there conversations about the culture changing because of these inputs?

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It's kind of like...

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Well, inclusion is for everyone.

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It's just that the work looks different for everyone.

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So if we look at things from the context of gender and the binary lens, so male and

female, inclusion actually means everyone.

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What it means is just the work for those that identify as men is different to the work for

those that identify as women.

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But inherently, both people need to do work.

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It's just the work is different.

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So in order for greater inclusion and greater equity and equality to exist for women,

women also have worked.

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Women are not excluded from that.

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Women also have work to do, but it's a different kind of work to the work that men need to

do.

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It's a partnering.

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It's no different to being in a romantic relationship.

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There is dysfunction.

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Both individuals need

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to contribute towards unity and harmony being in existence.

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They both need to talk about things.

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There are compromises that need to be made and so forth.

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When I work with organizations, we look at things from the context of inclusion as a

whole.

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And we look at things more from the context of changing the culture.

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And we also look at what is the brand or the business, what do they have credibility to

speak about?

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So not all areas of, not all identities and areas of marginalization are going to be

relevant for organizations.

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think what a lot of them tend to do is when they try and create inclusion for everyone,

that's actually where they stuff up because

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the leaders, the organization doesn't have that credibility yet to talk in that space or

to do work in that space.

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There is a learning journey that needs to happen first.

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And we also need to look at relevancy for the brand.

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So what is going to be relevant for a brand, for a femme, female-focused fashion brand?

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what is going to be relevant for them is women.

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But within women, can then go into women, know, disabled women, we can go into First

Nations women, we can go into black and brown women, and women who are carers, women who

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are parents, we can then start to look at that at a deeper level and actually layer those

things through.

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But I think when organizations try to create inclusion for everyone,

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they struggle because it's just, it's so difficult.

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It's so complex.

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It's so nuanced.

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And we need to actually learn the work first.

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And the way that we do that is we pick certain areas.

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We also give ourselves permission to do so.

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And we focus and we go deep on those areas.

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Once organizations go deep in those areas, and what I find is that they have the skills

and the leaders have the skills to...

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create a culture of inclusion and then we can start to look at other areas.

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So one brand that I did a lot of work with, we focused on women, we focused on First

Nations and we focused on people of color and we focused on pride.

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So those are identifiers, LGBTQA plus and two-spirituities.

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In that, you know, we started with First Nations women, then we went to, um, to First

Nations women and women of color.

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And then we, you know, and then we went to First Nations women, women of color and, uh,

LGBTIQA plus FUG.

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And so in that, in that, you know, we, we stepped it out and that was probably like a two

to three year journey.

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But by going deep in one area first, then we had the skills to then start to build on

that.

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So for me, that's how we look at culture change.

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And you do need to be able to really stay grounded in that because when you focus on one

area, rightfully so, know, other communities will speak up and say, well, what about us?

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but there is a skill development that needs to happen that I think community often don't

realize.

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Because what I've seen with brands is that when they speak about anything and everything,

all areas of marginalization, discrimination, that's when they stuff up, when they try to

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be provocative or break the status quo in a particular area, they have some sort of

experience in that space first.

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So I try and identify what is the space that they've already been

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they've already been doing some work in.

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And we start with that and we go deep in that and we build the skills and then we start to

step by step go into the other spaces.

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So what you talked about, you know, the different contexts and different groups of people

have different work to do.

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So what what what is the what is the different work that goes into these early stages of

building?

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know, like I I was was sensitized to all this around 2020 when, you know, the George Floyd

murder made the news and

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You know, all of a sudden, like certain jokes couldn't be made or that, you know, right on

the heels of that, Me Too movement and like, you know, a bunch of men were like, I don't

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understand the rules anymore.

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I don't hate anyone.

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I just I'm just.

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Joking, I'm just, you know, where all of a sudden there were people that just clueless

like the world is changing and I don't I don't understand it.

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What is the work that goes into those early stages of saying, let's let's embrace a.

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Rater, Diversity and Inclusion.

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I think it's empathy.

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think, you know, when we look at, what I found is that when we look at the work of

inclusion really at its heart, it's about empathy.

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think there's this, you know, having that ability to understand other people's lived

experiences.

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You know, I've said racist things, I've said patriarchal things, I've said things that

were discriminatory towards disabled folk.

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And when people have pulled me up on that, you know, it's deeply uncomfortable because no

one wants to be a bad person.

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There is a lot of shame around that.

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But what I teach people is that, be thankful, you know, be thankful to that individual for

helping you and supporting you to stand in your integrity.

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I think most of us pride ourselves as to be a person of integrity, to stand, live and lead

with integrity.

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And we we need support to do that.

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A lot of how the brain operates is from the unconscious, the unconscious mind.

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And so we don't often see things.

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And so when someone brings things from the unconscious into the conscious, and supports us

in that growth to stand, to stand more greatly in in, in, in integrity with a deep sense

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of empathy towards people.

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Yeah.

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You know,

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I had a colleague who's also in the D &I space and they say that, what have you got to

lose?

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Nothing.

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By not saying that joke or not, it's not costing us anything.

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By not saying that word or not saying that joke, it's not actually costing us.

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But the person who receives that, it's costing them.

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And so a lot of the times, the focus

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often ourselves.

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I can't say this, I can't do this, I can't, I can't, I can't, can't.

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So on one hand yes I do feel like with inclusion, inclusion is all about liberation but

then the sort of with inclusion with the work of inclusion there's a lot of paradoxical

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truth there is a yes and yes and and so yes what the work of inclusion is about liberation

and on the other side

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People do have this sense of, I don't feel liberated to just speak and be me because I'm

always cautious and I'm feeble of saying and doing the wrong thing because I might get

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canceled.

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So my encouragement to people is just to be you.

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And if someone corrects you, thank them.

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Keep that in mind, do your best and move on.

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Like we don't need to make a big hoo-ha about it.

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You know, if you, I've gotten friends and colleagues pronouns incorrect and I apologize, I

can feel the shame rising.

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I apologize and I move on, you know, and that's been the feedback to me from those, from

those colleagues when I've got it wrong, which is don't make a big hoo-ha when you make a

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big hoo-ha about it, it actually makes things worse.

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So apologize, correct yourself.

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and move on.

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That said, know, within, I've worked across marginalized, different marginalized

communities, and I will say things are different for different people.

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So what might be acceptable and tolerable for one person might be not acceptable and not

tolerable for another person.

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So for example, here in Australia, First Nations folk come from different tribes and

different clans and

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Some folk will say it's okay for you to ask what mob you're from.

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So what mob meaning what tribe or clan you're from.

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Other people will say that it's harmful to say that and that is linked to the stolen

generation.

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So children being taken away from their Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families.

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and being put into the care of white people and so therefore there's a loss of identity.

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They actually don't know who they tribe and their clan from because that has been erased.

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And so to ask who your mob is can be traumatic for people.

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So you know some elders in the community will say you know what they've shared with me is

that some elders have said that's okay and other elders have said that's not okay and you

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know

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And then I thought, well then don't ask.

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So unless that person chooses to share, I, I thought, well, this lot say this, this lot

say that, well, is it important?

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Is it important to know?

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No, it's an individual is an individual.

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If that's what they want to share for me, which is their sovereignty, if they wish to

share that.

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with me or with others, they'll share it.

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And so, yeah, I feel like with the work, it requires deeper empathy.

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And I think with empathy comes greater consciousness and awareness.

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You've also got to look at things from a place of curiosity, like where does that stem,

like where does that trace back to?

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So...

264

I think there was a museum in the States somewhere and for Black History Month they had in

a canteen or in a cafe or kitchen within the museum they had some watermelon salad or

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something like that as a feature for Black History Month and they got a lot of hate for

that.

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It's like you need to peel back the layers.

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What is the connection between black folk and watermelon?

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there is a history there around racism and then that links into slavery and colonization.

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I think the work really is about empathy.

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It starts with empathy.

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It's about having greater empathy towards others.

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As opposed to being concerned about ourselves, like I feel shamed.

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I'm a bad person.

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I can't say this.

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I can't say that my, my, voice is silenced.

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Having greater empathy, having greater sense of consciousness about the human existence,

not just our own.

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Um, and then looking at things with a sense of curiosity, knowing that just because

something happened 500 years ago or 200 years ago, doesn't mean that people are still

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feeling the effects of that.

279

Yeah.

280

Hmm.

281

Yeah, I'm thinking about a lot of my own interactions, you having moved to Spain, there's

a it's like shaking, you know, shaking the kaleidoscope.

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There's a whole like new set of like people's characteristics that I'm fascinated by.

283

So, you know, when I hear different accents and I see different facial features and skin

tones and heights, and I'm just curious about everybody.

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Right.

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some and, know, to me, it's a sign of respect to get to know someone.

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you know, where are you from?

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And I'm hearing that there are there are situations and that there are contexts in which

that information maybe waits until you have developed an intimacy to to even begin.

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Yeah, I think so where that so I have come to the understanding that when people ask where

where am I from because they can hear an accent and then and the feedback that I've gotten

289

is that they can't pinpoint exactly where that accent is from and then obviously my skin

is brown so people are curious and I know that's them seeing the difference so probably

290

unconsciously seeing the difference but wanting to have a connection to me so that that

difference sort of

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sort of dissolves for them.

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It's maybe perhaps more of accountability for them than it is for me.

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But I also know with a lot of folk, know, they don't see things that way and they get

offended when people ask where they're from.

294

And it's because, you know, they're very, they have this heightened awareness about their

difference.

295

They've had...

296

you know, there, that comes with a sense of not feeling like they belong.

297

And when someone shares that, it reinforces that sense of you're different and you don't

belong, you don't belong here.

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And so, you know, just, just like that, you know, like just like with that awareness, it's

okay.

299

let's, mean, even today with the Uber driver, like the Uber driver, I thought he was from

the same country as me.

300

And I was so curious about, you know, is he from the same, same,

301

country as I am and you know I really wanted to ask him and we just had a conversation I

asked him how long you know because he said he shared that he had moved to Australia I

302

asked him how long he's been living here I asked him you know where did you live before

Australia and he said Bangladesh and I was like you know and then he said I'm Bangladeshi

303

where are you from I said I'm Sri Lankan so

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and then we had a chat for that.

305

So rather than going in cold, know, just having conversation, we'd already been talking

for a while before that in the car and then slowly, you know, going into that, but having

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connection first, I think, yeah.

307

I'm really appreciating the.

308

The separation you're making between discomfort and shame.

309

So, you know, being in the States and watching the corporate world embrace D.I.

310

in a, I think, rushed, clumsy and ultimately uncommitted way because it's all went away.

311

You know, a lot of the pushback was like.

312

You know, the sort of like, you know, unconscious discrimination and, you know,

unconscious bias and and this the feeling that was expressed by a lot of white people that

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I know is that we're you have to feel guilty.

314

Right.

315

Like I have to, you know, I'm I'm I'm diseased and I have to, you know,

316

cure myself of the disease.

317

And there was a lot of pushback around that.

318

And I think, you know, it's certainly just from a psychological perspective doesn't seem

like a great way to get people to change.

319

And yet, you know, the opposite of everything's great.

320

I have, you know, I have I have no responsibility for systemic racism, even though I'm

benefiting from it.

321

Hey, I didn't do anything is also not moving the thing forward.

322

And I love how you're talking about like.

323

when you let go of guilt and shame and you can just feel this momentary and let it go,

that it doesn't have to be that bad.

324

Yeah, know, shame, know, Brene Brown, you know, as I think a lot of folk know, like has

done a lot of work around shame and which is all about all about us.

325

And yet we have the same tension around we have we have attention.

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Shame.

327

So shame and service.

328

So on one hand, shame is all about me.

329

And then at the same time, a lot of us have this desire to serve.

330

and the two are often in tension with each other.

331

But we cannot serve whilst holding onto shame.

332

We have to let it go in order to serve and serve more fully.

333

So, you know, we've all inherited a legacy and it's what we do with that legacy that

matters.

334

But inherently we cannot...

335

You know, that is the legacy of privilege.

336

And we can choose in that moment to not stay in shame, but to let it go and to step into

service.

337

Actually, how can I be of service to people?

338

So, know, guilt and shame will just hold you back and keep you stuck.

339

And that is all about us.

340

You know, how can we show up for others?

341

You know, we are humans on this, you know, strange planet called, called Earth.

342

And we cannot survive as a human race if we just look out for our own race.

343

If we just look out for our own kind, we have to be in partnership with others.

344

And that is a partnership of compromise.

345

Right?

346

Just like every other relationship in our lives, it is a partnership of compromise of...

347

shifting here, they shift, we shift, they shift, we shift, they shift and at some, you

know, it is evolutionary and so

348

Yeah, so I don't think it's, I think the sort of go-to, particularly after 2020 with the

Black Lives Matter movement was that, I mean, there are definitely folk out there that

349

will say, yes, you should feel guilty.

350

My orientation is that if we are to coexist on this planet called Earth, we need to find a

way to make this work.

351

You know, we have to function, which means you've got work to do, also I've got work to

do.

352

So for white folk, it's actually around, well, let's understand the history until you

fully understand the history, you don't know.

353

Um, and it's a history that it is a legacy that we have.

354

We have inherited.

355

And so we need to do something with that legacy work in the justice.

356

Inclusion is a fancy corporate word for what this work is really about, which is social

justice and human rights.

357

And one of the key things that creates greater justice in the world, well, an approach to

justice is what we call restorative justice.

358

And that is a process of which two people come together to restore and to heal.

359

So the perpetrator and the victim.

360

if it's safe to do so for the victim then they would come together in a process and it is

a process of making amends essentially until that amends has been made people can't move

361

forward it's human it's human psychology but when the person makes amends the irony is

that they experience a liberation from the hurt and the harm that they have caused

362

So we've inherited a legacy.

363

And it's about what we do with that.

364

With the country that I am from, we have a similar journey.

365

It's probably just a bit more fresh because we had a civil war for 20 something years.

366

And it was essentially Singalese versus Tamil people.

367

So in Sri Lanka, have Tamil folk, we have Singalese.

368

We also have people that we call burgers, which are people that are Sri Lankan, but also

have Dutch, Portuguese or French or English blood in them.

369

And, but essentially it was Tamil people and single East people fighting for control of

the country.

370

And, there was hurt and harm that was caused to both sides.

371

And so the greater question for the country is can, can we exist?

372

And until amends are made to both, to both folk.

373

to both communities.

374

Because there was hurt and there was pain and there suffering to both.

375

just, you know, in that context.

376

So when I look at, you know, white folk and black folk or white folk and people of color,

because colonization didn't just happen between white and black folk, it happened all

377

around the world.

378

You know, there are reoccurring

379

there's a legacy that's been inherited by people.

380

For some people that legacy has been good, for some people that had a legacy has not been

good.

381

And so how are we coming together to, in a restorative sense, know, create greater

harmony?

382

How are we coming together as people to partner together so that no one feels left out?

383

If you are in a family,

384

If you are a part of a family and you genuinely love each and every single one that is in

your family, but say you had a family of four and there were only three potatoes, would

385

you ask for one person to miss out on a potato for their dinner?

386

If that's all you had for dinner?

387

No, you would as a family come together and you would ensure that everyone had equal equal

parts, that everyone got fed.

388

But the human race is exactly the same.

389

But what we've forgotten essentially in the human race

390

is to actually love one another.

391

And that is also what I'm talking about when I talk about empathy.

392

We live in, as you talked about, capitalist society, which is me and me at all costs.

393

And there are people that miss out.

394

And that is a legacy that we inherit.

395

So it's not about shame, it's not about guilt.

396

It's actually about, with the privilege that I have benefiting from

397

these systems and the way that they operate, what can I do to ensure that other folk who

miss out on those privileges, what can I do to ensure that they have access to those same

398

privileges?

399

That's got to come from a place of love.

400

That's got to come from a place of empathy, you know?

401

Yeah.

402

So, yeah.

403

So this is, you you said like you can't serve while holding on to shame or guilt doesn't

really have a play.

404

And yet.

405

So if the thing I do is I post memes.

406

Right.

407

And I don't.

408

And but like, I'm not willing to give up my privilege.

409

Like just speaking like I have, you know, some inherited money that allows me to live a

certain way.

410

I have an education that that gives me certain things.

411

And I feel like like I'm honestly like when I look at the world as it is, I'm afraid to be

in the bottom 50 percent.

412

Right.

413

It seems it seems horrible.

414

It seems scary.

415

It's like there's not enough potatoes.

416

And, you know, for me and my family, like I saw a meme that's meant to be very humorous.

417

And it's kind of kind of punched me in the face and showed this, you know, this very

young, beautiful, carefree white woman sitting on a stoop with like a latte drink.

418

and says, you know, woman says self care is an act is, you know, an act of of solidarity

or, you know, engages in no other acts of solid solidarity.

419

Right.

420

So like, you know, when I hear you talking about like sharing the potatoes among the

family, that to me brings up sort of a Marxist idea of redistribute of like significant

421

redistribution.

422

as opposed to sort of the identity politics of, you know, like differences.

423

Like you're saying, yes, there's all these differences and we have to kind of include

people and be diverse and engage in injustice.

424

But at the end of the day, it's really about everyone getting potatoes.

425

Yeah, I mean, that's the way the system operates, is it disadvantages people based on

identity.

426

So there's so many studies that have been done, I think particularly around race, but we

have all these perceptions that someone with, for example, someone with Down syndrome,

427

cannot perform a job to a certain standard than someone who doesn't have, who's not Down

syndrome.

428

So it's not so much redistribution, but looking at, you know, who is disadvantaged based

on the way that a system operates and re-engineering the system to ensure that everyone

429

has the same access to that.

430

The reason why people don't stand in solidarity, the reason why people don't do anything

is because they are fearful of losing out and fearful of liking what you said, being in

431

that 50%, but in my experience, have, no one has ever lost anything for standing up for

something.

432

We have all kept those things, you know, speaking up.

433

I remember I had a dance company at one point and I remember going in Japan and my

artistic director is Zimbabwean and you know he's got dreads, his skin tone is much more

434

darker than mine and I had a little trouble at the border but I got through but I saw that

he was

435

you know, struggling at customs.

436

And so I could have just gone through on the other side and just kind of stood there with

all the other dancers who'd all well and all the other dancers were much more line of skin

437

than me, let alone him.

438

But I knew in that moment, you know, he was being questioned, you know.

439

So I went and I stood right next to him and I said to him, what's going on?

440

how can I best support you?

441

So rather me being rah rah rah rah rah, actually asking him from a place of he's

suffering, to you not mine.

442

How can I best support you in this moment?

443

And he said, can you try and work through this?

444

Anyway, I did get a little bit heated and we then both sat in a room for a little bit.

445

But you know, that to me solidarity is me willing to stay in the mud with him.

446

You know, doesn't mean that

447

You know, I still have my privileges.

448

I haven't lost it on those privileges, but am I willing to sit to sit in the mud with him?

449

When we think about friendship, when we've extended the hand of help to our friends when

they've needed it, have we lost anything?

450

Have we been deprived of anything?

451

For the most part?

452

No, you know, we still have our jobs, our incomes, you know, so forth and things like

that.

453

And so, you know, fear is what often drives, drives fear and greed, you know, often drives

a lot of, a lot of inequality.

454

So my experience working with different communities, also for me, working, trying really

hard to, to stand in solidarity with other

455

other communities whose identities are different to mine.

456

I have never lost any of my things that I...

457

Because the system is so complex, you know?

458

I have not lost anything.

459

I have gained so much of being of service to others.

460

I haven't lost anything.

461

I think, again, that's all about us and it's all about the ego.

462

I want...

463

people to thrive.

464

want I don't want people to suffer in the world.

465

I don't.

466

Why should they suffer?

467

Why should you know, young girls be thrown into sex trafficking?

468

you know, why?

469

Why?

470

Me standing up and trying to do something to help

471

contribute towards alleviating that.

472

It's not depriving me of anything.

473

And I think that's where we've got it wrong.

474

So so another another fear that I think might have something to it is if you know,

especially working in corporate environments where in the United States there are the

475

legal system has set up the financial system.

476

The corporation is a person is a legal entity.

477

It has obligations to its shareholders.

478

Mm.

479

that sometimes, you know, wipe out what you might consider ethical obligations, at if it's

not an expressive, you know, B Corp or social responsibility corporation.

480

it's corporate America, at least, and I don't know about Australia necessarily, rest of

the world, corporate America has a culture.

481

And in many ways, it's I imagine at odds with.

482

First Nations cultures with indigenous cultures, with.

483

You know, queer cultures that that may have like like like if you say, I don't want people

to suffer, I don't want people to live in poverty, I don't want people to get sex

484

trafficked.

485

That's kind of beside the point for for Bank of America or Goldman Sachs.

486

Right.

487

So is is there is there a concern that when we open up our

488

these institutions of power to people who have in groups that have been marginalized, that

they're going to change everything.

489

And we're not, we're going to stop destroying the world.

490

Like, that's a real fear, isn't it?

491

We're evolutionary creatures, we're constantly, like evolution is a process of change.

492

My experience is that things don't change overnight.

493

The fear in some of the clients that I've worked with has been that I will come in and

break things.

494

My experience has been things have never been broken.

495

They've only been enhanced.

496

think consumers, my experience in the research shows that consumers are more conscious.

497

We're already seeing it with Tesla.

498

They're conscious about what brands.

499

and their founders or the people behind them, what they stand for.

500

And they will boycott.

501

They will boycott brands and they will destroy brands.

502

have the power to do that.

503

We've seen it with the Ambercomber and Finch.

504

We've seen it with Victoria's Secret, which I think were both owned by the same person.

505

We've seen it with so many other brands that seek to...

506

no longer exists because consciousness has evolved the human consciousness has evolved as

so if Victoria's Secret is example I mean Victoria's Secret is still around I haven't

507

quite checked the numbers from but from when I last checked it the revenue numbers were

not not as high as what they were when Victoria's Secret were at their peak what they

508

failed to do was to so what you know

509

First women were like, Victoria's Secret Angels, yay, we love sexy women in lingerie and

women that looked like that.

510

And then women evolved.

511

I started asking questions of like, actually, are all women like this?

512

Is this okay?

513

Is that perhaps the hyper sexualization of women and what are the societal impacts of?

514

women being perceived and portrayed as that, how does that impact women's sense of safety

in the world?

515

How does it impact women's sense of safety even within relationships?

516

And so forth.

517

so women's, as women's consciousness evolved and was like, hang on.

518

Cause in the, in the, in the late eighties, nineties, it was all about, you know, part of

women's empowerment was like, you know, embrace your sexuality and feel sexy or whatever.

519

And then women were like, hang on.

520

And so Victoria's Secret failed to progress with failed to listen to women and what their

needs were and you can see that shift in women's consciousness and the evolution of that

521

consciousness because as women sort of change you see this, you know, this big hooky curve

going up in revenue and then straightaway dropping because they failed to listen.

522

There were so many other things that were going on like a lot of sexism within the

organization.

523

I think some of the female leaders

524

within the brand, trying to speak up.

525

And so what you have with them is a very different brand to the brand that they, but they

used to have, they had to change the whole company, whether they'll continue to exist is a

526

whole other conversation.

527

But I think if they...

528

founder and CEO also had Jeffrey Epstein as his money manager for 20 years, which is not a

great look.

529

yeah, there's a whole bunch of things that went in.

530

So a whole bunch of things that went on.

531

yeah, in my experience, I have a lot of colleagues that do this work.

532

have never seen a brand being broken by the work of DEI or putting more in air quotation

marks diverse people in charge of these companies.

533

What we have seen is a comp-

534

lead opposite.

535

So I don't have any data to prove that all I know is like the desktop data that I've done

in terms of things that I've seen the research the articles that I've seen.

536

What I have seen is brands being broken when they don't have a core sense of diversity and

inclusion within their brands.

537

If we look at things.

538

I'm thinking it's beyond brands and just capability.

539

I think about, know, like I think I can get confused if I see, you know, a transgender

spokesperson for Budweiser.

540

I can think, they're a progressive brand when they have nothing to do with it.

541

But let's say a company like Boeing, which was arguably one of the one of the greatest

companies.

542

by capitalist standards in the world in terms of what they did and the quality of, like, a

bunch of the same people kept their jobs, it was affirmative action for white people who

543

are not that talented, and all of sudden, Boeing can't keep a jet in the air.

544

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

545

I'm just gonna plug in my laptop because it just said to me that the apologies, apologies

for that, for moving the screen around.

546

You know, there was a lot of blame because it was an easy place to put the blame, you

know, that there is no, there is no data around that, you know.

547

It's so interesting because when it comes to diversity and inclusion, people will say, is

the data?

548

But when it comes to putting the blame on diversity and inclusion, all of a sudden data is

forgotten about.

549

So, I mean, I think that's all part of a bigger strategy around power and throwing as

much.

550

into the media to create mass confusion through chaos.

551

I think that particular situation was part of a much larger, a much larger strategy.

552

But in my experience,

553

Yeah, that is putting more diverse people into those roles.

554

mean, my assumption would be, I haven't worked in the Air Force field, but my assumption

would be having worked in other areas is that it is a very highly regulated space with a

555

very, very heavy focus on safety.

556

So the problem isn't diversity, the problem is in the mechanics of the operation.

557

and things like that.

558

yeah, I mean...

559

Yeah, my thing is where is the data?

560

To back that up.

561

So when you think about the work that you do and the work that needs to be done, where do

you see it going in the next five, 10 years?

562

Like, what?

563

What what can we look forward to?

564

I know there's you there's a lot of, you know, reactionary movements right now.

565

I'm I'm telling myself that they're the last dying gasp of an old world.

566

I hope that's true.

567

know, would paint is paint is a picture of a world in which like stuff works.

568

Yeah, I saw, I believe the future of DEI, mean, there's a big conversation amongst

practitioners around what is the future of the work.

569

My sort of sense is like, let's just sit with it for now.

570

Let's not do like a big rebrand of the work and relabel it as some something else.

571

Let's actually sit with it, sit with it for now.

572

I believe the future of this work is actually about empathy and us coming back to a sense

of

573

of humanness about what the work is about.

574

We live in a very globally connected world.

575

There is...

576

I guess the sort of ideal future is a future where people genuinely look out for the needs

and the interests of others rather than solely their own and have a service orientation.

577

So we're back after some Internet glitches, but I want to make sure before you go with it

that you let people know how they can find you and your work and who should reach out for

578

your service.

579

Yeah, absolutely.

580

can connect with me on LinkedIn, Winnitha Bonney, Instagram at winnitha.bonnie, and also

my website is winnitha.com.

581

So.

582

and spell Winnitha for.

583

Yeah, W-I-N-I-T-H-A dot com.

584

That's probably the best place to find me, to send me a message and get in contact.

585

Right now I'm really focusing on spreading the message via events and speaking at

different corporate events and conferences.

586

One of the keynotes that I have is called, Ain't Woke.

587

commercially smart inclusion.

588

And that's really about resetting the agenda on the work and what it looks like for

organizations and how inclusion truly is a win-win strategy for all kinds of organizations

589

and businesses.

590

Awesome, and do you do this work globally?

591

Yeah, absolutely.

592

Awesome, so maybe someone listening to this can get you to Spain and we could meet up and

have tapas.

593

Yeah, that would be amazing.

594

I think it's cool that your website is your first name.

595

That's like making you like, you know, share or Madonna.

596

Like you own the brand.

597

Yeah, I gotta thank my mother for that one, huh?

598

Winitha Bonney, thank you so much for this really heartfelt and thought-provoking

conversation and for all the work you do in the world.

599

Amazing.

600

Thank you so much for having me.

601

I really appreciate it.

602

All right, take care, have fun.

603

And that's a wrap.

604

Show notes for today's episode at PlantYourself.com slash 621.

605

What's going on?

606

Movement News haven't done much.

607

a weekend off just exploring the old city of Gerona.

608

So did a lot of walking, but not much exertion.

609

Coming back to the beach this morning after a podcast interview that I'm going to run,

going to do some sprinting.

610

My trainer Jay is now throwing a football ahead of me and I try to run in the sand and

catch up to it.

611

I get about one in five or six, but apparently it's building good stamina.

612

And we got the weekend grass tournament up north, north of Gerona this coming weekend.

613

So excited to be back in cleats on grass.

614

And that's about it for movement.

615

Just just trying to keep things.

616

calm and steady.

617

Other things going on.

618

The weather is getting real nice here.

619

The trees are budding.

620

There's been a lot of rain in Spain this this past year.

621

It's helped with the drought and things are looking forward to a greener spring and early

summer than I've seen so far.

622

Hey, a thought.

623

It's beautiful area where I live and if folks would be interested in a three or four day

624

retreat around mindset, around living your best life, removing the things that have

triggered us so that we can move through life with more composure, become less flappable,

625

more unflappable.

626

Anyone's interested in that and coming out to the Barcelona area, staying in a nice place,

getting some nature and doing some group work on ourselves.

627

Hit me up at PlantYourself.com.

628

I'm not committed to this, but if there's interest, I'd be happy to start putting things

together.

629

I used to do this quite a lot when I still lived in North Carolina.

630

We would have these sick to fit retreats where people would come, maybe six to ten people,

and we would do really amazing, deep work, eat great food, go running, go walking,

631

connect, make lifelong friends and

632

I hadn't I hadn't thought about doing that over here, but now I'm thinking about it.

633

So H.J.

634

at Plant Yourself dot com.

635

H.J.

636

stands for Howie Jacobson.

637

H.J.

638

at Plant Yourself dot com.

639

Drop me a line.

640

Let me know what you think.

641

All right.

642

That's it for this week.

643

As always, be well, my friends.