In this heartfelt episode, Lesa is joined by Michelle Leisen, a mediator, financial planner, and attorney, who supported Lesa through a personal breast cancer diagnosis and professional challenges. Michelle shares her professional journey, from attending law school to becoming a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CDFA) and mediator after experiencing her own contentious divorce. The discussion focuses on Michelle's 'Power of Three' approach to divorce, highlighting the importance of understanding legal options, financial implications, and emotional well-being. Listeners are encouraged to be informed about their choices, consider the financial costs, and prioritize emotional health for themselves and their children. Michelle emphasizes the value of assembling a supportive team, including attorneys, mediators, financial analysts, and therapists, to navigate the complexities of divorce effectively.

00:00 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement

01:44 Michelle's Background and Journey

01:58 The Power of Three in Divorce

02:26 Michelle's Personal Divorce Experience

06:03 Understanding Divorce Options

08:56 The Financial Costs of Divorce

11:13 Putting Kids First in Divorce

16:19 The Emotional Side of Divorce

19:18 Building Your Support Team

21:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

I'm really, really excited about today's episode

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because you don't know this, but the

person who helped me out through a

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really hard time is with me today.

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And I'm so excited.

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Her name is Michelle Lyson

and, she's a mediator.

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She's a financial planner.

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She's an attorney.

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And she stepped in when I.

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You know, when they caught that breast

cancer at stage one, but I still

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had to go through all the stuff she

swooped in and, you know, we didn't

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even really know each other that well.

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I love Michelle because she took

my divorce course to help her learn

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how to do divorces and a mediation.

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And I love that.

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I want people to do that so

that they can learn how to help

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people through a mediation.

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But she swooped in.

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Kindest heart, you know, didn't even

really know me that well and came in

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and took over at no cost to help my

clients who I had already signed out on.

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So I just will forever

be grateful to Michelle.

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So Michelle, thank you.

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And I'm excited for today because I

feel like even though I know you a

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little and I know you're really good

at what you do, that's why I felt so

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comfortable with my clients going to you.

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I don't know like your whole story,

like we were just talking before

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and I'm like, well, I don't even

know if I knew she was divorced.

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I don't even know that I

knew she was an attorney.

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So this is going, this is like coming

full circle and it feels kind of

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healing to me to be in this position

and to be able to thank Michelle

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and to be able to hear a little bit

more about what led her to do this.

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But what Michelle talks

about is the power of three.

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When you're looking at divorce,

she's been through divorce.

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She wants to help you.

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She wants to make it less scary.

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She wants to tell you what she

wishes she would have known.

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then we're going to talk about

three aspects of divorce.

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Michelle, so grateful for

you for everything you did

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and that you're here today.

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So welcome.

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Thank you, Lisa.

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So can you start off with just, and

you don't have to go really deep

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because I want the listeners to

know we're doing a Saddle Up Live.

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If you want to get to know Michelle

and the details, that's Total

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details, but more information about

her personal story, go to saddle up

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live and we'll talk about it there.

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But can you just share what

led you to do this work?

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Because it is interesting

work that not everybody does.

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Michelle Leisen: Yes.

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Thank you, Lisa.

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And I should clarify, I am not a

practicing attorney, I went to law

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school, but I never took the bar.

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So I should clarify that.

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Lesa Koski: I used to practice.

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I always say I'm a recovering attorney.

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Michelle Leisen: There you go.

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So, I actually went to law school

at Mitchell Hamlin, which used to be

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William Mitchell at the time, hated

law school, hated every ounce of it.

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nothing against attorneys, but

that was just not my cup of tea.

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So I became a financial advisor and I

was, I still am a financial advisor and

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have been a financial advisor since 1998.

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So, oh my gosh, that's 26 years now.

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And I think like a lot of couples,

I was married at the time my ex

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husband and I were together 28 years.

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We have two wonderful kids, 21 year

old daughter and a 15 year old son.

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And I found myself in a divorce situation.

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And you would think with a legal

background and being in finance that

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I would do all the things right.

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And I did not.

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it was difficult.

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It was contentious.

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It was three years and we were one of

the people who actually went to trial.

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And that was the scariest day of my life

is that a stranger who's never met you or

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your family is going to decide your fate.

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So it ended up working out, I would say

mostly in my favor, but it was still

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not what you think it's going to be.

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So in going through that process, I

thought, boy, This is not the best for

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me, for my family, for my ex husband.

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If we could have just

done this differently.

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So I had done some research on

something called a Certified Divorce

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Financial Analyst Designation, CDFA.

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And it basically gives you

added training around all things

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finance when it comes to divorce.

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So I got that designation and I

then became a qualified neutral

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through the state of Minnesota.

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And started divorce smart and, you

know, went through the whole mediation

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training, went through your training.

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Thank you for that.

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And, it's been going great and just

helping families do it better, I think

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is, I feel like the universe and God

was just pulling me to make up good

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from a hard situation, obviously my

kids are fabulous and I wouldn't change

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that for anything, but feeling like

I was being pulled in this direction.

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So that's why I do what I do.

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Lesa Koski: I love that.

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And that is like the story of most of

the people on this podcast, my guests.

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I love it.

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They went through something hard.

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And now they're out there helping people.

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So thank you for doing that.

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So now I want to talk a little

bit about the power of three

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that you talk about in divorce.

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So is this kind of getting into like

what you wish you would have known?

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You know what?

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And before I get there, Michelle,

I just need to, I want to ask

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you in your situation, it sounds

like it was really contention.

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And I always am the one pushing

for mediation whenever you can,

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but sometimes you can't because

it takes two willing participants.

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So if you're fortunate enough to

have two people that don't want to

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go to court and want to work it out

and come to an agreement together,

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because you talked about how scary

that was to have like the judge making

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the decisions about your family.

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Do you think.

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you could have done it through mediation.

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Michelle Leisen: So we actually

were ordered by the judge to do

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mediation and it failed and we

weren't successful in that process.

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So I looking back on it, I don't

necessarily think so, but I wish I

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would have known that there are options.

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And that's the first part of the power

of three that I wish I had known ahead

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of time is that there are choices.

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You know, you can do what's

called a pro se divorce.

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So you can do it yourself and it's

going to be the least expensive.

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But if you have kids and you have

assets, sometimes that's more difficult.

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you can go through mediation without.

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the litigative attorneys or with it's

up to you, but you know, you can go

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through mediation where you're in

control and you make those decisions

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there's something called collaborative

divorce, which I'm also a member of,

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which I didn't know existed before.

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Where, you know, you each have your

own collaborative attorneys and you

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have a financial neutral and you have a

parenting coach that helps you through

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that process and agree to stay out

of court, which I think is fabulous.

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And then there's litigation, which

is going, looking back, that's

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the only option I thought existed.

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So I wish I had known those

options when I got into it.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah, and that is one

thing like during every consultation.

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I like to tell my clients all the

options out there because you can do it

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yourself and some people are successful.

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I do have a lot of people who

have trouble with the paperwork

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and that's why they do my.

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DIY divorce course, which

you can find online.

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they go in and use that because then

they know they have everything they need,

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So they get a little legal

information and they, you know, are

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kind of taught how to do the forms.

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But you know, for some people,

if it's real simple, they

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can just do it themselves.

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And so for you, and I

think that's true too.

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So when you say.

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know your options.

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It's probably if this is something that

you're going through, I don't want you

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to be scared, but just start researching.

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And I think while you research those

options, collaborative law, mediation,

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also just do, and you don't have to

feel overwhelmed, but just do a quick

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little search on The legal information

in your state, because I think knowing,

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you know, like basically half of your

assets are going to be divided or, you

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know, knowing how things work in your

state and you don't have to take a deep

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dive, but getting that understanding

because I have so many people that

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come to me and they have no idea.

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And we know with knowledge is power.

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And I always find a little bit of peace.

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When I get that.

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So I think with those options, if you

are, if this is something that you're

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going through, which of course I don't

want you to, if you don't have to, so do

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everything you can to save that marriage.

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And then if you can't look at your

options and explore what the, what the

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laws are in your state, or get a consult

with an attorney just to find out.

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So your first option.

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Is the, your first one in the

power of three is options.

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Yeah.

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What's next?

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Michelle Leisen: Yep.

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The second thing is knowing the cost.

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I remember Googling constantly trying to

figure out how much this divorce is going

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to cost and how do I stop the bleeding

and what is this going to look like?

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So, you know, my divorce ended up costing

me 67, 000 because we went all the way.

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So, I think on average, you know,

in Minnesota, particularly, you're

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looking at probably 15, 000 in

excess of six figures, you know,

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some are over a hundred thousand.

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So knowing that going in, I think

is important because I had it in

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my head, it would cost me 10 grand

and I would be divorced and it

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didn't end up working that way.

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So knowing what your options are and

knowing how much each of those costs.

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I think is important because you feel

so out of control anyway when it's going

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on that not knowing financially having

control of how much that's going to

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cost, I think is a big fear for people.

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Lesa Koski: Well, and I'm so sorry.

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That you went through such a

contentious one, because that's one

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of the most expensive ones I've heard.

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you think this is why if you can

get both parties to do a mediation,

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that one over 120, 000 that you

both together spent could have been

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kept for your kids or shared

between the two of you.

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Sadly, it went to pay for

attorneys and the courts.

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And, wow, Michelle, I had no idea

that would be a huge and I bet

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that's a huge driver for you to

help people do it a better way.

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Michelle Leisen: Exactly.

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And nothing against those attorneys.

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Both of those attorneys.

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No, it's just, yeah, it's just,

I didn't realize going in that it

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would end up costing that much.

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So,

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Lesa Koski: yeah,

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Michelle Leisen: we'll do it better.

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Lesa Koski: And like I said,

sometimes you have to, if there's

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any kind of abuse or you don't

feel like you're being being heard.

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It's pretty hard to do a

mediation in those cases.

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But you know, there are other options

like collaborative laws sometimes

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can work in those situations.

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So, wow, I had no idea.

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See, I said I was going

to learn more about you.

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I had no idea that you went through that.

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and with the kids too, with the

kids, which I think is that the third

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Is that the third power of three?

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Michelle Leisen: So the third thing

I wish I knew, and I felt everyone

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feels like they're doing this right.

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And that's putting the kids first.

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And I think my ex husband and I

tried to do our best to put the kids

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first and make sure that they're in

a good place, but divorce is hard.

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It's hard on the parties.

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Imagine how hard it is on the kids.

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And it's that much harder and

especially based on their age at the

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time, you know, my kids were a little

bit older than, but if kids are five

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or seven years old, I mean, they

don't understand what's happening.

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So I think really making sure,

taking a step back and thinking,

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okay, how is this affecting them?

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Because it's hard

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Lesa Koski: and

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Michelle Leisen: seeing

and seeing them adjust.

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And thankfully kids are resilient, right?

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So they are so good at bouncing back.

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But it takes time and

it's hard on everyone.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah, it's really hard.

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And I like that you said what you

said about resilience because it

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also can be an opportunity for your

children to grow and become resilient.

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And so there are maybe some gifts

in it that they wouldn't have had if

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they wouldn't have gone through it.

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And of course you don't

want to put them through it.

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They don't want to go through it.

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Michelle Leisen: it?

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Lesa Koski: Nope.

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So it's a documentary and there's two

documentaries that I have the rights

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to it's by produced by Ellen Bruno.

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And one is of kids when they're

younger, you know, and what they go

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through during divorce and you can

watch and see what they're feeling.

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Then she takes it years into

the future when they're all 18.

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And you can see, or 18 and

above, and you can see how they,

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how it worked out for them.

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Cause when they were little,

they were just going through it

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and then how it affected them.

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and it was hard for a lot of them

were really negatively affected,

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but there was one in particular who

had such a great outlook and it was

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because his parents worked together.

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And that's what, you know.

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Even through the divorce,

he knew they supported him.

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He knew that he, yeah.

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And so, and like I said, if you got

an asshole for another parent, I'm

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sorry, but I want to also tell you

that they just need to see one really,

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you know, doing things the right way.

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So you can't control if they

have that, you know, so I know

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that it's so scary, but that was

those, documentaries are so good.

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Listeners get ahold of me

if you want to see him.

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And that's why I have that really,

really reasonable parenting plan course.

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I mean, I think it's 197 even if

you're going through a contentious

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divorce, if you can sit down and

go through my parenting plan.

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Course and do that together.

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You can bring that to your attorneys.

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Then the judge isn't going to be

making the decisions about your kids.

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You know, that's another way

to kind of make it hybrid.

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Michelle Leisen: Yep.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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Cause those kids are so important.

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So, and I know like, even though

you said your kids are older,

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Michelle, it's still hard.

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I've had adults.

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on here talking about how hard it is

when their parents divorce and it gets

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tricky like holidays get all messed

up and, and now we're, you know, we're

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in the holidays right now, which I

don't know when this comes out, if

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it'll be passed probably, but that's

always a tricky thing to maneuver too.

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Michelle Leisen: Yes.

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Agreed.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah,

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Michelle Leisen: but I think it's

important to, to not stay together

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just for those kids either.

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I know that's one thing I thought about

as I was going through the process and

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kids, your kids will, will be okay.

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And it's okay to go through this

process and not, you don't have to

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feel stuck in that process because they

are resilient and they will see you.

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You and your ex on the other

side and how it takes time, but

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it's worth it in the long run.

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And they will be better because of it.

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Like you had mentioned.

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Lesa Koski: Yep.

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I'm glad that you said that because

it's when you were talking about your

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kids and how to make sure, to check

in and see how this is affecting them.

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What came to my mind is

also to take care of you.

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Michelle Leisen: you

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Lesa Koski: know, if so many people

lose, it's like just do a tremendous

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amount of self care if you can, whatever

you can do, you know, if it's just like

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soaking in the tub, whatever you can

do for self care because they need.

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a mama that's happy.

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And if you've put everything into

your marriage and it's not working

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and the other party isn't, and

there's nothing you can do, it's not

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going to help your kids to watch you

suffer and to not have a good life.

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What's going to help

them is to see you grow.

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And, you know, yeah.

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So I'm glad that you

brought that up, Michelle.

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Thank you.

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See that your experience just goes on.

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Just helps there.

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Okay.

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Now, like the time is ticking away

and I'm kind of thinking we might

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talk a little bit more about the three

aspects of divorce on Saddle Up Live.

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But do you want to just give

us a quick little, what are

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the three aspects of divorce?

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Michelle Leisen: Yes,

that's a good, good point.

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Thank you, Lisa.

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So I think when couples are

divorcing, they don't realize how

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important all three aspects are.

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And those aspects are the legal side, the

financial side and the emotional side.

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sometimes couples are so focused on what

the law says and what their attorney

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is saying, but they're not necessarily

focusing on the financial side of

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knowing that a dollar in your 401k is

not the same as a dollar in your bank

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account or how your pension actually

works through the process and what your

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spouse is entitled to in that regard.

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So they don't necessarily consider

the financial side of things.

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And then the emotional side of things

is, you know, a lot of, unfortunately,

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I think a lot of people will think

that their attorney can potentially

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help them and they play out.

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Their divorce, their emotions

of the divorce on the legal

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front or in mediation.

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And there's really, it's important to

have, you know, whether that's marriage

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counseling, whether that's your own

individual therapist, whether it's

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something like divorce care afterwards,

or like you were saying, focusing on

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that self care and don't be so quick to

jump because it's a grieving process and

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you want to make sure you're accurately

and appropriately grieving your divorce.

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So I think it's important to

focus on all three of those areas.

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And a lot of times when you're

going through the process, it's

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important to have a team that can

help you with all three of those.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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Yep.

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I love that you bring that up because

for anyone who's entering this, that

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is something for them to remember.

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It's not all legal.

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It's not all financial and it's not

all emotional, but it's all of them.

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And I want to talk a little

bit more about the team.

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and the emotional part, I think sometimes

that's the part that gets missed a

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little bit, but it truly, I have seen

amazing clients grow through this by

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learning how to deal with the emotions.

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You know, we don't really learn how to do

that until we go through something hard.

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Yeah, and getting their mindset

right and the growth and the better

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Parents that they are and the way they

can go help in the world So that is

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clearly be prepared that is a part

of it and you brought up mourning.

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I have lots of these episodes on

grieving and Mourning is a need that

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we have You know, and it is sad.

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And so feel it, don't stuff it away

because it's going to pop out somewhere.

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Allow yourself, care about yourself

enough to let yourself mourn,

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which I think is hard sometimes.

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Michelle Leisen: And not to be so quick

to jump into new relationships, right?

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Because if you don't work on yourself

and if you don't properly mourn.

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The loss of that marriage, the loss

of what you thought it was going

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to be the loss of what your future

you thought was going to look like.

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You're just potentially going

into a similar situation.

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So you want to make sure you take

time and it's better for your kids.

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If you have kids to take that time

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Lesa Koski: and

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Michelle Leisen: let them see you do that.

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Lesa Koski: Okay.

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Before we go, tell me about the team.

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When you talk about having a team,

when you're going through this and

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here's what I want to say to you.

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For those people who feel

like they can't afford a team.

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Like I was thinking when you were

talking about finances, you know, and

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I was talking about how you can do

a divorce on your own, I would, if

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you did it on your own, I would still

have someone like Michelle come in

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and help you with your assets because

you do want to do the before and after

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tax values because they're different.

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And that's something you might not

think about because when you split your

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assets, before looking at the taxes,

it can be different than after tax.

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So that's where I would say,

pull in that team member, right?

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But if you can't afford all these options,

there is lots of free information.

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If you can do your homework, you

know, and, and learn about that.

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information.

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And I know I have a lot of free

resources, uh, my website, just to

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help you with your mindset emotionally.

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If you can't afford to hire a coach,

go get coached on, on Instagram, get

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coached where you can, but In a perfect

world, and if you can afford it, what

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do you think your team should look like?

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Michelle Leisen: Yes,

that's a good question.

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Thank you, Lisa.

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So, I think it's important to

have an attorney, if you so

387

desire to have an attorney.

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So, attorneys can definitely

be part of that team.

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A mediator, someone like myself,

Can be a part of that team.

390

Or if you choose to, I also function

in the aspect of a CDFA, a certified

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divorce financial analyst, like

you were mentioning, where you can

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take a look at the finances and

say, okay, does this make sense?

393

What are we not thinking about here?

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What are we missing?

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So that's also very good.

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And then the therapist.

397

It's making sure that you're appropriately

processing everything and it takes time.

398

And so I think a team of an attorney,

a mediator, a CDFA and a therapist

399

are important if you can afford those.

400

Lesa Koski: Yeah.

401

And I would maybe throw in a divorce

coach if it's a good one, someone

402

that can help you maneuver through it.

403

Michelle Leisen: yes, agreed.

404

Lesa Koski: Michelle, this is the

time is running out and listeners.

405

If you want to hear more from Michelle,

go to saddle up live, but Michelle, like

406

I said before, I'm so grateful for you for

your giving heart, for you coming in and

407

helping me out and for doing this podcast

and letting me get to know you better.

408

Michelle Leisen: Thank you.

409

I really appreciate it.

410

Lesa Koski: Thanks for being here.

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Michelle Leisen: All right.