In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Divya Devakran, Director of Human Resources at EVS Engineering, to trace her path from “accidental” HR to building a company GPT. Divya shares how she built EVS’s HR function from the ground up, why she started a passion project to create an AI-powered policy and coaching bot for her organization, and how she is thinking about psychological safety, guardrails, and the very real time crunch HR teams live in. She and Thomas also look ahead at what will separate tactical HR teams from future-ready HR functions in the next few years.

Topics Discussed:

• How a planned finance career turned into “accidental” HR
• Building an HR department from scratch at EVS Engineering
• Why Divya started building a company GPT as a side project
• Using AI for HR policy questions and anonymous support
• Coaching bots for new managers and real-time guidance
• Guardrails, hallucinations, and knowing when to route back to HR
• The difference between tactical HR and future-ready HR teams

Additional Resources:

• Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
• Future Proof HR Community
• Connect with Divya Devakran on LinkedIn

This is something that I like doing outside of work.

2

This is not something that my organization

have asked me to do or anything of

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that sort, but I'm just a curious person,

I'm seeing AI taking over everywhere.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Thomas: Hello and welcome to the

Future Proof HR Podcast, where we

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explore how forward-thinking HR leaders

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are preparing for disruption

and redefining what it means to

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lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, as always,

Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary.

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Today's guest is Divya Divakran, Director

of Human Resources at EVS Engineering.

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Over her 18-plus-year career, Divya

has built HR departments from the

21

ground up, championed talent strategy,

and now leads a team spanning HR,

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branding, and office operations.

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But what sets her apart?

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She's rolling up her sleeves, as we

speak maybe, because they're off camera,

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and building custom AI tools herself.

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No technical background, just curiosity,

courage, and a hands-on mindset.

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Something we can all learn from.

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Divya, welcome to the podcast.

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Divya: Thank you so much for

this opportunity, Thomas.

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I'm so excited to be part of this podcast.

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Yes, I am rolling on my sleeves.

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Thomas: There you go.

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So tell us a little bit about your kind of

like background and as well as the HR team

34

that you've built from scratch at EVS.

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Divya: Yeah, so I did my

MBA in symbiosis in India,

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and I started my career

as a talent acquisition

37

specialist and grew from there.

38

So to back up a little bit, I did my

MBA and I wanted to be a finance person.

39

I was not keen in becoming an HR person.

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However, when I got hired, I was

told that we did the personality

41

assessment and all of that.

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And during the personality

assessment, the company that I

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interviewed for, they basically

44

said I would perform better as an

HR than a finance person who is not

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that great with attention to detail.

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So they suggested and

offered me a job in HR.

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So that's how I got into HR.

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And I got into talent acquisition

as a recruiter because of my

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personality to build relationship.

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I'm more of an outgoing

person and all of that.

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So they felt that this would

be a better fit for me.

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And for the first two years,

I actually tried to really get

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out of HR and go to the finance

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department.

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I did everything I could to volunteer

myself in the finance area and

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see how I could get in there.

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But as I was doing that, I realized

within HR, there are areas which

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are payroll related benefits.

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And there's more that I didn't know.

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And I was exposed to those areas.

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And I got into payroll and

benefits administration.

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And slowly from there, I

moved into employee relations.

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And from employee relations, I moved

into being an HR Business Partner.

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relations, I moved into

being an HR business partner.

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And then from HR Business Partner,

I was able to get into coaching

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and development and leadership

development as an opportunity.

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So eventually, as I am here

at EVS, I am doing the role

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of heading the HR department.

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Where at EVS, when I joined,

we were around 72 employees.

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Right now, we are close to 230 employees.

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And it's been around four and

a half years since I joined.

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When I joined, there was no HR department.

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So it was interesting and

challenging and fun to build the

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HR department from ground up.

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And now I oversee a team of nine that

includes not just the HR group, but also

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branding and also office administration.

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We do end-to-end, starting from talent

acquisition to actually starting

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from branding, talent acquisition,

talent development, talent management,

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and also office administration.

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Thomas: Was there a moment when you

stopped fighting the moniker of being

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in HR and wanting to continue in it

and actually started embracing it?

82

Divya: Yes, it was actually when

I was given the recognition by

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my leaders that I'm doing good.

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And actually, to take it back, I remember

there was one time when a candidate

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really appreciated my involvement in

getting them that offer, job offer.

86

And that actually

87

gave me a sense of satisfaction.

88

And I felt this is probably the light up

or bulb moment or whatever we could call.

89

That's when I felt like maybe

this is the calling that I had

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and I didn't really realize.

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Thomas: So fast forward today.

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So you have a team of nine working on,

granted, a little bit beyond HR as well.

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But then if that's the case, tell me, why

are you spending your own time working

94

on building some things with GPTs versus

having your team work with you on that?

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Divya: First thing, my team

is swamped, as I am as well.

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But this is my passion project.

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This is something that I

like doing outside of work.

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This is not something that my organization

have asked me to do or anything of

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that sort, but I'm just a curious person,

I'm seeing AI taking over everywhere.

100

And I keep getting asked to test or

demo of certain products and give

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them feedbacks and all of that.

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Right.

103

So when I'm being part of

all of those conversations,

104

and I'm seeing what is possible in

the AI world, I was just curious.

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I have my husband, who is a techie,

who is into all of this as well.

106

And he was building something.

107

And I was like, okay,

tell me how to do this.

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And I worked with him, I

mirrored what he has been doing.

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And would create all of that in my

area and see how that would work for

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from HR perspective how can we make

HR's life easier at the same time

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the employees life easier as well so

if I'm able to build that it's in a

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very starting stage so it's too early

113

for me to involve my team members

to get into this project, then

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there is a lot more other things

that we have implemented recently.

115

So we just implemented Workday.

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So that itself is a huge project,

which my team is busy with.

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And we are also building EVS University.

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So that's also something

that my team is busy with.

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So with EVS University, we are

building the course from scratch.

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So it's not like we are buying

courses, online courses, but we

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are building the courses for EVS.

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So it's quite a lot of effort and

manpower where my team is focusing on.

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So I just want to roll up my

sleeves and do this on my own.

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And if it works out, great.

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I would bring my team in

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Thomas: So can you tell us more about

what use case you are experimenting with?

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Divya: Yes so I'm

experimenting it with two.

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Basically one is on the HR policies

general policies and procedures that

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every new hire or even experienced

hires don't really go in and check

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on a day-to-day basis on the on

certain policies like jury duty

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if I have been called for a jury duty what

is the process like instead of them going

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through a policy manual yeah they can do

a control f and find it but it is even

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more easier for them to just ping and ask

one of us so instead of them asking one

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of us I'm just creating this GPT model in

such a way that it is more of a chatbot

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or ask HR module where they can just chat

with that chatbot to know the policy.

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And the other thing that

I'm testing out is coaching.

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Coaching and development on

nobody teaches people how to be a

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supervisor or manager immediately.

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That is something that people learn.

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And no matter how many learning and

development courses that we build,

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it is still a lot of effort for

people to really sit through

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those courses and retake those

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information to get that

hands-on experience, right?

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So coaching is much more easier.

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And if people are comfortable, and I'm

seeing more and more people using chat

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GPT for all kinds of questions, right?

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So it is not just related to any

random, okay, help me with this

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code or anything, but they are also

asking questions like, okay, help me

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plan this trip, or I'm having this

situation in my life or at my work.

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How do I handle this?

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How do I draft this email?

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I want to ask for a raise to my manager.

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How do I draft this email?

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So instead of it being general

ChatGPT response, I would like

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to create something which is more

tailored for my organization.

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I know the

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organization's culture,

I know the organization's

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values and leadership better, so it

is better for me to feed the data

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to my GPT, so EVS GPT, so that

it is more of tailored for our

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employees to get that response the

way how I would respond instead of

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it coming from a general ChatGPT.

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Thomas: I love that.

163

So before we go more in depth, I just

wanted to make an observation and tell

164

me if you agree with this, because

earlier you mentioned that there's

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so many opportunities with AI to both

improve the employee experience, so the

166

customers and what we're offering for

them, as well as to improve efficiencies

167

for the HR department as well.

168

And if I think about the two examples

that you had, HR policies and really

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HR service delivery, I think having

a solution like this can improve

170

the experience for employees because

you can find information instantly,

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faster, that answers your question and

obviously improves efficiencies because

172

you're not reaching out to you at all.

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And similarly on this coaching side,

there's, repeat that, similarly

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on the coaching side, there are

opportunities for the HR team to be more

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effective because you're potentially

multiplying your time in some ways.

176

But then also for employees,

it's making it more a better

177

experience because you're able to,

I think in this case, tell me if you

178

agree or not, actually ask things

of an AI that you may not even feel

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comfortable asking your HR rep.

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Divya: Yeah.

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No matter how much we talk about, I speak

a lot about psychological safety in an

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organization and building a culture where

people feel safe to open up and ask any

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questions or concerns and bring it up to

anybody without any fear of repercussions.

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But the harsh reality is it requires

a lot of courage in our employees

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to be able to just come out of that

shell and not feel like they will

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be judged or anything like that.

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And they feel much more comfortable

talking to, asking AI than to a

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real person because they feel like,

okay, an AI will not judge them,

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but a real person could judge them.

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There could be repercussions

and all of that, right?

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So it's helpful for me to create such

an environment for our employees to be

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able to ask such things anonymously.

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And I'm also trying to see if

there is a way for me to get data

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without knowing who is asking what.

195

But through the GPT, if I could get a

data that could shed some light as to

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what kind of questions are people wanting,

asking and wanting to know answers to,

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and that could help me, again, tailor

answers and feed the data into the system.

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Thomas: So you're getting very hands-on,

I think probably more so than many others.

199

First of all, you're in the

context of a technology company

200

where throughout the functions,

people are, I imagine, leveraging AI

201

for all types of workflows in

other parts of the organization.

202

Or do you think you're in HR, how

you're using it is like a little

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bit more ahead of the curve?

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Divya: Yeah, it is actually.

205

I work for an engineering consulting firm.

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When I say engineering consulting

firm, it's renewable energy.

207

So we have civil, electrical.

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So it's really hardcore engineering

consulting firm, not really

209

technology-based organization.

210

But then we do have an AI team

that we have recently created.

211

So there is a new team that is being

built and they are focusing primarily on

212

automation efficiency for the engineering

products that we are delivering.

213

So from the HR side, I'm ahead of the

curve in terms of looking at this is

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not really a revenue generating product

or anything at this point, but this

215

is more of a support tool for the

organization that I want to build.

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Thomas: So do you think if you are looking

across your peer set across organizations

217

like HR executives, do you think

folks should be more hands-on with AI

218

like you, or do you think it's actually

just about finding the right partners?

219

Or in general, how do you look at the

current landscape when you look at HR

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leadership and their stance towards AI?

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Divya: I see mixed response, I would say.

222

There are people who are really worried

about AI, and there are people who

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are embracing AI and I don't know if

there are, I have not yet spoken to

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very many people who are being hands-on

in developing AI tool for themselves.

225

They are partnering with other AI

organizations that could develop

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their vision, but I've not seen very

many people who are being hands-on

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and developing their own tool.

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Thomas: Do you think the HR

function should be adopting

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more, whether like building,

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partnering, however it is, but we're like

moving a pace in terms of adopting tools?

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Divya: Yeah, I would say it is important.

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If not now, then in

three to five years time,

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they will be late to the game.

234

So it is better for them to start

ahead, get a head start into the AI area

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so that they are ahead of the curve.

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They understand what are the

capabilities that could come through AI.

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There's always improvement, right?

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Continuous improvement.

239

And as we all start working on this,

then we will start seeing use case

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scenarios and we will be able to see

that, okay, this is a possibility.

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Oh, this could have been done.

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So we can keep on improving.

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More people utilizing it, better.

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I don't know.

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I'm just struggling to

get that right word.

246

Like more people utilizing AI,

we would be able to get the best

247

out of that product, I would say.

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This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

249

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

250

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

251

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

252

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

253

can all thrive in the age of ai.

254

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

255

community.

256

Now back to the show.

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Thomas: So to get there, though, I want

to get your thoughts on something I

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call it that's like the vicious cycle.

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So you mentioned how your team

is team is overwhelmed right now.

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There's a lot of projects.

261

There's a lot being asked of them, both

from the employee base, the executives,

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all your stakeholders, technology

implementations that are going on.

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And so there's no time.

264

There's no time to go in and

experiment or learn about what is next.

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But then how do you solve for that

when, on the other hand, we say that

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if you're not as an HR team, having

your hands in on projects and looking

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at whether it's to improve the employee

experience or to improve efficiencies

268

for your team, if you're not working on

those things, you're going to be left

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behind in a certain period of time.

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But on the other hand, there's

all these demands constantly.

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How do we break through that?

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Divya: Yeah, that is where

it comes through the passion.

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If you are really aspiring to

grow in the organization, grow

274

in your field of expertise,

275

then get hands on.

276

I wouldn't say do it during the work

hours if that is what is, if there's eight

277

hours in a day and if you can dedicate

one hour a day to explore this, great.

278

Work with your managers to see

if there's a possibility, if

279

you have genuine interest in

technology and developing something.

280

But I don't know if that is a

possibility for all the HRs.

281

Every organization is different.

282

I can only speak for my

organization, my team.

283

And if my team members are

expressing that they are

284

interested in doing what I'm doing,

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I have already shared with

them as to what I'm doing.

286

And there are a couple of

them who are interested.

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I've showed them what I'm doing.

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So it is up to them.

289

They have access to it as well.

290

So they can play around with it and show

it to me as to what they are building.

291

So that's a fun project, side

project, if they want to do it.

292

And if they have the capacity to do it and

capability to do it, but I wouldn't expect

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them to do it at this point.

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What I would say to other HR

leaders is your team members are

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the doers.

296

So they have to do what they have to do to

keep the company running and all of that

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support to the organization, all of those.

298

But as HR leaders, you lead by being

an example, you can carve out some time

299

if you're able to get started in this

and then your team will follow you.

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I always believe in leading

by being an example.

301

So if I'm not doing anything

and I'm just pushing it to my

302

team, I don't think my team

303

would be motivated enough

to explore on their own.

304

Thomas: And let's talk about in

terms, in some ways, like build

305

versus buy or like partner versus

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like build.

307

There's like a learning component.

308

Obviously, that's pretty helpful

if you want to go into the

309

concept of not just prompting,

310

but building your own custom GPT.

311

And there's like layers of

you can go into all the way.

312

into building an agentic

product, theoretically, I think.

313

But you can also partner with someone,

whatever the use case is, right?

314

How do you think about that?

315

Obviously, from a software standpoint,

you're not building an HRIS.

316

You're partnering with a vendor that is,

you know, and you're going to implement

317

that to make sure that you can provide

for payroll and HR systems and everything.

318

How do you think about that in

this cycle where we are with

319

AI about build, buy, partner?

320

Divya: If you're able

to buy, that's great.

321

If you have enough budget

to do that, and if you have

322

a clear vision of what that would look

like, if you're able to provide a business

323

case scenario to get that from the HR

side, that's great for your organization.

324

But since AI is so new, I don't know if

there is a strong business case scenario

325

that we could come up with to get that

budget that could actually show a strong

326

return on investment at this point.

327

So that's why I am leaning

more towards building.

328

And that would also help me to be able

to test it out, different scenarios to

329

see what is possible and what is not.

330

When I'm going with buying, it is what, I

mean, they have something that they have

331

built already and I'm just buying that.

332

I don't know if there is a possibility

of tailoring it for my needs and say,

333

for example, what I am looking for.

334

One is coach bot and the other one

is basically a chat bot, right?

335

Then in that, if I'm going with buying,

I have to buy two different products.

336

Maybe I have to go to two different

vendors to buy these two products

337

and assemble all of this together.

338

But if there are organizations

that are building everything in

339

one, then, and if we have the

340

budget, then yeah, I think that buying is

also an easier way than having to build it

341

all by yourself.

342

Thomas: So Divya, you've been

working on this concept of coaching

343

for managers and especially new

managers and almost this concept of

344

micro coaching and something that's

personalized for a specific manager.

345

Tell me about the inspiration

and the vision that you had

346

for this kind of a product and

347

interaction.

348

Divya: Yeah.

349

So as a first time manager, it is

really new for a first time manager

350

to experience a lot of scenarios and

situations that they would deal with.

351

In terms of people development, technical

development might be easy for them.

352

That's really on a day-to-day

basis, something that they're doing,

353

technical training and all of that.

354

But when it comes to people development,

when a team member comes and asks a

355

question like, okay, I'm getting another

offer or a recruiter is reaching out to me

356

with the compensation offer of this.

357

What can the company do for me?

358

Then that's

359

a question that a first-time

manager wouldn't have experienced

360

yet on how to respond.

361

And they can always come to

the HR or their manager for

362

feedback as to like, how do I

363

handle this?

364

But not always a manager and the HR

will be available for them immediately.

365

So if I'm your team member and I'm coming

and asking you, it is better for you to be

366

able to respond immediately than

saying, okay, I will get back to you.

367

I will listen to everything

and then I'll get back to you.

368

That is not really a

solid credibility for you.

369

So it is better for you to quickly

chat or use the coach bot and ask,

370

okay, this is what my

team member is asking.

371

How do I respond?

372

Then the coach bot that I have developed

that is basically my cloning or my feed

373

of how I would respond to the

manager is how that would respond.

374

And that would

375

help them have that conversation.

376

And a later point, they can always

come and talk to me as HR as

377

to, okay, this is what happened.

378

This is how I responded.

379

What is it that we can

actually do for this employee?

380

And what is our pay range like?

381

Is there room room and all of

that discussion could happen

382

in person with the manager.

383

However, the first time response or

like immediate response on how to

384

handle these situations and build

the credibility and trust within the,

385

with the team members is important.

386

And that's where I felt like it would be

good to develop this coach bot, which is

387

a go-to for our managers to ask anything

related to, okay, a team member is asking,

388

I want to go work remote for a month.

389

We have a temporary distance work policy.

390

I want to work remote.

391

But the manager would not know all

the details of the policy immediately.

392

So instead of saying, go talk to HR,

they can just do a quick search as

393

to, okay, this is what this person is.

394

This is the location that

this person is going to go.

395

This is okay.

396

As per EVS policy, then they

have the answer immediately

397

and they can just deliver it.

398

So they will be the first point of

contact instead of them going to the

399

HR and they are building the trust.

400

They are building the credibility,

the employees feel comfortable going

401

to the manager and the manager is

setting the stage where the employees

402

feel comfortable going to them

at the same time, also help coach

403

and develop them to be successful.

404

Thomas: So as you're building to enable

this kind of product for your managers,

405

what have been some practical challenges

that you've faced along the way?

406

Divya: For me, I'm doing this.

407

I'm using my husband as my testing rep.

408

So he will be the one who is

actually testing all of these

409

scenarios and based on what he is

going through at his organization.

410

So we are doing this in

our personal computer.

411

So it is all an outside project.

412

So I have not gotten to this yet.

413

So the challenge I would say is

the hiccup what we are seeing

414

right now is more of

415

if my husband, when he's testing

this, if he's asking a question that

416

I have not given data to the

GPT, then that is where I am

417

seeing it giving some random

418

answers, which is not at all relevant.

419

So I have to make sure

420

that I'm thinking through every

single scenarios that would

421

come through and load it in.

422

And so that is where the

challenge is, basically.

423

So I need to make sure

that I'm thinking through.

424

Thomas: So there's, yeah, retrieval

augmented generation as a technique

425

to also prevent hallucinations,

but you're getting into.

426

But even more directly, there's

some ethical questions as well.

427

So if you're basically replacing

an experienced credentialed person

428

with a bot to answer, in this case,

potentially sensitive questions, which

429

also have a second order effect because

you're trying to enable managers.

430

The cost of getting it wrong

could be quite high depending on

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what the potential question is.

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And yeah, those have been

the kind of areas that in my

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experience, a lot of HR, it causes

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a lot of HR professionals to

just stop short and just say,

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there's going to be many other

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use cases that need to mature

before a mind come to the fore

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with this kind of technology.

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What do you say to that kind of, I

guess, mindset or, I guess, response

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to facing these kind of challenges?

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Divya: Yeah.

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So when that happens, I agree with that.

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When ethical issues might come up.

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And that's why I am being more and

more mindful about the kind of feed

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or data feed that we are

putting into the system.

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And if there are sensitive questions

that are being asked at that point, my

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response for those kinds of questions

would basically be stop, talk to HR.

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Instead of the GPT giving some

random answers, it should be more

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of, okay, these kinds of questions,

it is stop, go and talk to HR,

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talk to Vivian, talk to Bailey.

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So that would be the response that I

am trying to feed and enable it with

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instead of just giving it all the answers

or if in case GPT just decides to give

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its own answers, which I don't think

it's again, how we build it, right?

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That's why it is better

for us to build it.

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So we know what we are

developing and testing.

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Thomas: So

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then just to wrap up a little bit,

maybe we can look forward a bit about

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where the function might be headed.

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Let's say there's two teams,

two to three years from now, one

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HR team is dramatically doing

well, succeeding, successful.

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Another one is not having much buy-in

with the executive team, not making much

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of an impact, and doesn't really have

a seat at the table when it comes down

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to being effective in the organization

or driving business decisions.

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What do you think is the

distinction as you look forward?

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What has one team done versus

another team that would separate

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them if you look forward?

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Divya: I would say would be the difference

between the two teams basically is

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one team would have been more tactical

and doing what is being asked of them

468

and not being proactive, not thinking

ahead, not staying abreast of the

469

technology and the possibilities of

being more involved in the business

470

development, like growing the business.

471

Instead, they might be more of, okay,

I will do what is being asked of

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me and I'll get things going, which

is more, which is also good because

473

they are helping and supporting

474

the organization the way

they are expected to be.

475

But the other team might be more involved.

476

They would be having seat at the

table because they are contributing

477

to the success of the organization.

478

They have data points that shows

that HR team is not just a cost

479

center, but also a profit center in

a way, because they are contributing

480

to the biggest resources of the

organization, which is human resources.

481

And they are looking at providing

value to the organization by supporting

482

the Human Resources in a way by

developing their talents, making sure

483

that we have an org design that is

helpful for the organization's growth

484

and development and helping with

the scale up of the organization.

485

At the same time, there are

tools and technologies provided,

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resources provided for the people who

are doing their work so they are being

487

more operationally efficient as well.

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Thomas: Thank you for that,

for projecting ahead, right?

489

The kinds of things that need to be

expressed more to be successful as

490

an HR team of the future, because

that's really what we try to get

491

into with future-proofing HR here on

492

this show.

493

So we've really delved into this

experimenter mindset here with you, Divya.

494

And I appreciate the depth

that you're going in to really

495

struggle with and understand at

496

a practical level what it means to try to

even build a custom GPT and then the kinds

497

of layers of challenges that you

come across as you try to push

498

that into something that would

actually be useful for employees.

499

And that mindset of being the example

for the rest of your team, I think really

500

resonates for me because if you're not

experimenting and trying something like

501

yourself, you're not going to be

able to get that mindset in to a

502

team, which is, as you're saying, as

many HR teams are completely bogged

503

down in so many tactical things.

504

And it's really hard to lift your head

out of that because as we just projected

505

out into the future, a lot of those

things, that we are bogged down in

506

will be going into the background as

administrative work that is done more

507

and more with automation and with AI.

508

And so we need to make sure that our whole

function is in a place where we are, we

509

have been reskilling all along so that we

are successful and ready for that future.

510

I really look forward to

seeing how this project goes.

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I hope it blossoms from side project

to something that you are comfortable

512

rolling out bit by bit into your org.

513

And to everyone out there who's listening

and who's looking to future-proof your own

514

organizations and your own HR functions,

I hope you found some value in this

515

great conversation with Divya, as I did,

because there is a call to action there.

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So go, whatever LLM you guys are

using, go take it to the next level,

517

build something that is

customized on top of it.

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You can leverage for your own org.

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The use cases are endless.

520

Got some great ideas

right here on this show.

521

So with that said, thank you, Divya,

once again, for this conversation.

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And to everyone out there,

I'll see you on the next one.

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Bye now.

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Divya: Thank you so much, Thomas.

525

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

526

If you like the discussion, make

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527

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528

Or share this with a friend or colleague

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529

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age on AI.