Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 14 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P-Soupers, this episode is an encore, revisiting a favourite from the People Soup Archives, and it's a classic with lots of personal meaning for me and many others. There's much for us all to learn from Lou, through her personal values and what she role modelled for us. Lou's impact in supporting others through her art continues, even though she's no longer with us. Her light shines brightly.

Lou, I miss you. I think of you every time I see a blackbird in our garden, which is pretty darned often.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• Lou's brilliant video on Relational Frame Theory RFT
• Podcast — Kelli Walker Coaching - where Lou discovered Russ Harris
• Mr Benn, Lou & Ross too - hear another episode with Lou where we revisit a TV programme from our childhood and try to relate it to ACT

Read about our Chisi Awards from #365daysofcompassion for Best Podcast

Leave a review as a WhatsApp voicenote on +0034696636487

Ross' new website

Our Podcast Website on CAPTIVATE

Ross on Twitter

People Soup on Instagram which also features plenty of Ross' photos of the Andalusian life

People Soup Page on Facebook

And you can connect with Ross on LinkedIn

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 14 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:14] Lou: more.

[00:00:34] Ross: well. Yeah. I think that they all shine through and I love that you, your first value is love.

[00:00:46] Lou: doing.

[00:01:04] Ross: people Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science. Particularly from contextual behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. Peace Soup is, this episode is an encore revisiting a favorite from the People Soup Archives, and it's a classic with lots of personal meaning for me and many others. There's much for us all to learn from Lou through her personal values and what she role modeled for us. All her impact in supporting others through her art continues, even though she's no longer with us and her light shines bright.

[00:02:05] Ross: what I'm doing through people, Sabre's trying to take a stand for what's possible at work and show people how they can build that possibility for themselves.

[00:02:28] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk for reviews are in for part two of my chat with Gabriela Brown, Lisa Ingham on Twitter said, thank you for another great two. I love the title and yes, we can't just leave part of who we are at the office door. So resonant and relevant for where we are right now

[00:03:02] Ross: Thank you, Gabriela. Indeed. Thank you Gabriela. And thanks to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed. Talked about it with a friend. Recommended the podcast because with your help, we can reach more people with str. That could be useful, But for now, get Aru on and have a listen to a special Encore With Lou Gardner, my act. Dante, your act. Dante, our act. Dante,

[00:03:46] Lou: Hi Ross. Thank you very much for inviting me on your

[00:03:56] Ross: I just want to start the waves with a summary of what my research department have [00:04:00] gleaned about you. You just absorbed this and see what you think. Uh, they may not have got everything, right? First of all, they've noticed that you hung out with some right groovy people, and these include dandelion, some pirates who are apparently from Mars.

[00:04:45] Ross: On the dance floor

[00:04:51] Ross: um, I'm just hoping against hope. Yeah. I suspect if anyone's listening who was there, they might unfortunately, um, Provide that

[00:05:07] Ross: Right? We can talk about terms for non release of that off Mike.

[00:05:32] Ross: Like to thank you for that, that, that, that, that you bring that to, uh, human interaction

[00:05:41] Ross: And I'd also like to acknowledge your value of generosity. We're going to get into your art in a bit more detail, but you share so much of it for. In the act world and for the act practitioners and those interested with such generosity, I'd like to just do a big woo hoo.

[00:06:11] Lou: Hope inside a bit.

[00:06:38] Ross: That's

[00:06:42] Ross: Limey. Tell me, tell me a bit, don't worry about that. That was like, was it a sea? Was a Lake, was it?

[00:07:01] Lou: So she is she's so inspirational. Anyway. Um, yeah, I thought we were meeting for coffee and she said, I thought we could go swimming in the sea. It was like, what, everything in my body and my. Literally straight away was like, no, thank you. She was loud. I know you'll love it. And I just thought, you know, what if I did that, I'd be so chuffed with myself.

[00:07:38] Lou: Um, and I just thought. You know what, maybe I should just do it. Yeah. And so I did, yeah, it was very, very cold there, but it was an amazing experience. That sense of accomplishment of actually achieving something afterwards. It was a real buzz until Mary said. The next 10 minutes after you've got out of the most dangerous it's like[00:08:00]

[00:08:10] Lou: I think, I think each of those little things, cause each time I think there was, I think as Mary was saying, like, once you've done that, when you do something else, you think, you know, if I did that, I can do this.

[00:08:24] Ross: Sorry. So when's your next open water swap?

[00:08:31] Ross: I think, I think Mary will persuade you. Yes, I think so. The last bit of my research department, they said, Oh, they sent, they thought that in a sort of political way, Louise might not want to turn up on your little podcast now because she's actually appeared recently on the British broadcasting corporation.

[00:08:57] Lou: he has entered the defend again. Literally my first interview was a live radio interview, so that was pretty scary, but using my skills, I made room

[00:09:14] Lou: Thank you again. My inner critic had lots to say about it, but yes, I could thank it for its helpful advice.

[00:09:43] Ross: So the way you, I wonder if you'd like to just introduce yourself a bit to the piece supers, tell us a bit about what you do, how you got into art and give us a bit of a flavor of what's gotten you to where you are.

[00:10:15] Lou: And was always looking for something to help me get rid of it. That'd be lying. The problem. I've tried to get rid of it. And I listened to a podcast called not another anxiety show and they mentioned a happiness trap on there, but I thought I'll just Google it. And it came up with Russ's online course.

[00:10:53] Lou: Literally. Don't remember not drawing my dad was a printer. And so he used to bring home loads of paper. So I was always drawing and things. So yeah, it was. Kind of like always be the love of my life. So

[00:11:15] Ross: Yeah. Yes. Sorry. Yes. Yes.

[00:11:39] Lou: What my, what my I've forgotten. And so I just drew a little visual map of a little character walking through the processes of like the eight weeks. And it was for me to put on my wall really just to remind myself every day. And I posted it in the Facebook group to see if people might find it. Helpful as well.

[00:12:10] Lou: And he'd like to commission me to do maps for the eight week course. So that was. Obviously a during job to do. Um, so yeah, so each week has got a little visual walkthrough. So when people have finished it, they've just got like something quickly. Look at it. And just as a little refresher of all the skills that they've learned, because there's a lot of information there.

[00:12:28] Ross: Wow. I love, I love hearing this story of how you came upon the core suit. Through the podcast. Yes. Yeah. It's such a great

[00:12:44] Ross: podcast, almost respect to Russ Harris, who was one of the primary leaders in getting act out there too.

[00:12:58] Lou: Like you said, I think for so many people, that is how they discover right through Russ's work. And then I just was so enthusiastic about it. I just thought, how does more people not know about this? Cause whenever I tell people about it, no one had heard about it.

[00:13:27] Lou: So that was September, 2017. I did the course. Um, and then he was coming to London in July, 2018 to do act made simple and like for trauma workshops. So I did those. And then since then I've done some more training in Birmingham and. Um, Bristol, um, with Louis Hayes and Joe Oliver and yeah, I just kind of can't get enough of it and I'm hopefully going to be doing life coaching next year in using act.

[00:13:53] Ross: Oh, wonderful. Do you mean you as, as the coach?

[00:14:06] Ross: blimey that's that's phenomenal. I'm so delighted to hear that.

[00:14:14] Lou: Well, I just feel so passionate about it and just whatever, you know, there's, I don't know, just being able to pass on the information and help other people that might be feeling stuck. Cause I think for me, that's the whole thing. I think a lot of people, when you struggle with anxiety, you think you take it so personally and think you're broken or weak and it's so not that you are just stuck.

[00:14:39] Ross: Thank you so much for your openness. I think I certainly resonate with that as a, sometimes I still feel like that very anxious child.

[00:14:50] Lou: I think giving yourself a hard time for that. And I think, you know, the compassion element of act, you know, um, you know, CFT has been so helpful as well because I was super hard on myself and just learning those. Self-compassion skills, you know, and, and that common humanity, I think that's one of the things I love about act as well, that people, you know, share their experiences and you see all these amazing inspirational people.

[00:15:27] Ross: I love the way you describe this. Cause yeah, it's, it's about.

[00:15:41] Lou: doing that. Yeah, absolutely. Like you said, my mind was telling me all of the things this morning or the strip things I was going to say and that, and like you said, but it's making room for those.

[00:16:04] Ross: Yeah. I think what we've both got is this desire to share this further, to help more people discover this behavioral science.

[00:16:30] Ross: Yeah. And that is getting into schools now and they ended up quite exciting ways. So, crikey. Yeah.

[00:16:59] Lou: Welcome.

[00:17:16] Lou: Probably not very different to the things that I've probably carried on drawing. Lots of little people, characters, lots of.

[00:17:39] Lou: And I think just, I just love those kinds of. Other little worlds, you know, that you can just make up anything and you just can create that any world that you want. So I think just being able to draw that as well. Yeah. Just, I think, you know, no lucky enough to load lots of illustrators and children's book writers.

[00:18:04] Ross: Oh, isn't that, isn't that wonderful that, that you could pursue that.

[00:18:14] Lou: I, I did a sort of general art and design course, but I don't think I, even then it was just my, kind of what I loved most, but not with a kind of end goal in mind. And then I had a fantastic tutor there who said, you know, you do know you could go on and do a degree. And I was like, really forced about doing that.

[00:18:53] Lou: Pre-internet cause I'm that old. Um, you, uh, you literally physically, you know, seeing publishers with your portfolio, which was brilliant. I mean, great to meet so many amazing people. Yeah. And hoping that somebody would pick up your work and give you a job. And I was lucky enough to. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of my first jobs was with BBC play days back as enjoying daily, the dinosaur.

[00:19:20] Lou: I might have some words going back a bit, but yeah, maybe. Um, but yeah, so then it was just, yeah, so I do feel very blessed to have been, you know, working in this industry for so long. So.

[00:19:38] Ross: Yes,

[00:19:51] Ross: when you were a kid, did you enter like art competitions and stuff? Oh

[00:19:56] Lou: I was quite shy. I think so. No, not that I, [00:20:00] yeah, I kind of, I schooled and things in that. We'd kind of do things, you know, they'd have a thing where you designed the school Christmas card or that kind of thing maybe, but

[00:20:24] Lou: Yes. I think everybody is creative. And like you said, when people would say, well, I couldn't do what you're doing, but I always say is just practice on people. Absolutely can do it, you know, and it doesn't have to be in that medium. And it's just that expression. I think all arts, you know, dancing, singing, painting, drawing, photography, you know, everybody's got a creative outlet.

[00:20:46] Ross: important. I think what we often fail to recognize or, or emit from our consideration of being creative. Is that at practice? Yes.

[00:20:59] Ross: It's not like you woke up one day with a pencil. I thought, Hey, I ain't going to be an illustrator. This is hours and days and months, and years and years of practice

[00:21:12] Lou: You, like you said, if you're going to play a piano or something, none of us are going to be good. Well, I don't think I'd ever be good at that, but like you said, it is just putting in, but, you know, so it's having the enjoyment, like wanting that end thing. But I think, like you said, lots of people do, you know, like the coloring in books and stuff and things.

[00:21:48] Ross: it's a, quite a profound human thing to do this.

[00:21:52] Lou: And I think it's one of the, I mean, it's such a unique human thing, isn't it? I think. Yeah. And the best of, you know, society, when you look [00:22:00] at like, The time is where human beings have actually managed to not fuck everything up jumpy, but like society is what, you know, they were about, you know, theater and sports and painting and singing and dancing.

[00:22:29] Lou: Like that is what they're about really on their end and sharing love, I guess, you know, like baking and things. I put love into those things or singing a song or writing a poem. I mean, it is an expression of that sounds a bit strange, I guess, but you know, I think those sort of creativity is really. Mm.

[00:22:57] Lou: of love. Yes. Well, our lovely friend Rose, I mean, she made the me the most amazing embroidery. Quilt. And that was just, I was so touched with, so, you know, to me that was that's love, you know, and it's just like, so all the values of kindness and generosity and love and creativity and not

[00:23:14] Ross: Hmm. Now, Lou being a P-Souper you'll know that I asked my guests for a song, and this is a song that you'd be happy to use to announce your arrival in all life scenarios for the next few weeks, whether it's you arriving to meet Mary, whether it's you entering. A room to meet friends or whatever. Now I did tell you this in advance.

[00:23:37] Ross: a song

[00:23:42] Ross: Oh

[00:23:46] Ross: Lou

[00:23:51] Ross: Oh, you devil.

[00:24:02] Lou: You'll have to drop

[00:24:03] Lou: in with you singing along

[00:24:08] Lou: Um, for

[00:24:16] Lou: That's the word I use a lot, but I think with my work, you know, I want it to help empower other people. Cause it does feel like it's given my life back on lots of levels. I think. So it feels almost like a new improved me. So it's that kind of thing of like wanting to live life to the full and like. saying you know, here I am and being brave, I think that kind of tiger is courageous.

[00:24:52] Lou: And for me, that...this kind of like sums up that as well. That kind of fierce protective side

[00:25:07] Ross: it got that? in it

[00:25:10] Ross: not, I'm never really sure. I normally I think no one's going to Sue me for thinking I'm gonna

[00:25:15] Lou: would offer to, to sing it but my singing voice is probably not anything anyone

[00:25:21] Lou: maybe that will be my next committed action. Yeah. Oh I did go to I do go to a singing group So that is committed action.

[00:25:33] Lou: Oh my

[00:25:35] Ross: What do you think

[00:25:37] Ross: reason act

[00:25:39] Ross: When, when are we um,

[00:25:42] Lou: it'd be

[00:25:42] Lou: Live Aid

[00:25:48] Lou: we've got plenty. Yeah. We've got a lot of guests. I think you should do that. Oh, can you imagine that we could get them all together? Like on a massive group, zoom, we could all do a Live Aid style [00:26:00] You've got to do

[00:26:01] Ross: Wait that'll have to be for next Christmas. I think just reigning in our ambition slightly, but I think we are the world.

[00:26:19] Ross: Now P supers, it may have come as a surprise that I couldn't quite nail the song and the recording session for this podcast. Katy Perry is not high on my playlist for this year. So I'm now going to present a little part of it to you. And I think there's a message for us all here. And I'd like to dedicate this to my friend, Lou.

[00:26:46] Ross: That's correct.

[00:27:22] Ross: Lock down the guard and to shake the ground, but I get it where it goes. I see it all. I see it now. The, uh, yeah,

[00:28:06] Ross: yeah, go.

[00:28:24] Ross: peacekeepers. You hear my voice? You hear that sound. It's like funder, it's going to shake the ground enough of this. Let's go back to my conversation with Louise. Thank you. Thank you for that. And I know always imagine that song with you. Yes.

[00:28:48] Lou: Um,

[00:29:04] Lou: Well, it was, yeah. So that first little walkthrough one, I think that was the first one that I put out. And then I obviously started working on RAICES, but then that didn't kind of come out to a later trying to think what the first one was.

[00:29:39] Lou: Me in the face. Um, and then I think I started working on the animation stuff. Cause a friend who was very kindly contacted me and said sense. You want to see this program? I think that'd be great for your work that you're putting out. Um, yeah, in fact, this program, so I could start animating like some of my drawings and things.

[00:30:14] Lou: I think that was one of the things I'm most proud of that I've produced act dancey. And the feedback for that is just. Been amazing. I think it's something like 12,000 views or something crazy at the moment. So

[00:30:30] Lou: Yeah. So I think it's about eight minutes long, something like that, but just like very simple walk through of kind of.

[00:30:41] Ross: but look how you're making that accessible. And for those of you who aren't sure what RFT is, it's, it's called relational frame theory and that underpins act. Yeah, it's traditionally seen as, Oh my gosh. RFT is too difficult for me. Yes.

[00:31:05] Lou: You know, it can be so sticky, but. You know, having that self as context, you know, being able to step away from it and you know, and that self-compassion of knowing it's not your fault, you know, all that information that we, when we're younger than we take on board is, you know, in our repertoire, you know, like you said, of when we're stressed or scared, you know, we probably always go back to those automatic thoughts, you know, those inner critic, thoughts and things, and it's

[00:31:29] Ross: But it's really informative and I'm not surprised it's at 12,000 views. Hopefully we'll get some more because people will want to go on and look at it. Yeah. What would you describe as your, your personal values in your illustration work? I think you've touched on them, but I just like to tease them out a little bit

[00:31:46] Lou: I think, like you said, love, I think there's a lot of love that goes into it, but I think like you said, connection and community, obviously creativity. Yeah. I guess compassion. I hope that kind of [00:32:00] comes through, you know, in one communicating and things. Um, fun and humor. I hope as

[00:32:12] Ross: Yeah. Just to say. Take virtual hug for that. I think it's amazing what you're

[00:32:35] Lou: Okay.

[00:32:47] Lou: it. I think there is, there's always that kind of self doubt, I think when you put anything out, you know, cause it is very personal, isn't it?

[00:33:12] Lou: I the about act and stuff that if just one person finds it useful and goes on, you know, to help change their life for the better by using it, then, you know, that's incredible. I think if we were just trying to spread this message and spread it out, that's the important thing I think. But yes, definitely do have those in a critical, I think.

[00:33:46] Lou: But I think we all have that, you know, think that maybe that's what motivates us to keep trying to keep improving as well. So it's not a bad thing. You know, if we thought we were super great, we'd never challenge ourselves to improve. Sorry, just

[00:34:02] Ross: And also the, for me that the simplicity of an illustration can convey really complex messages in a way that 10 pages of text cards. Um,

[00:34:20] Lou: You know, and I think sometimes, maybe just that a little picture or something might just make that little connection to maybe want them to read a bit more or just to have that, you know, make it a little bit more lighthearted things as well. But yeah, I'm an avid reader. That's one of my passions. I've got a ridiculous my books, like I said, when I discovered that it was just, yeah, my act library is quite big, but yeah, I just, it's so fascinating.

[00:34:54] Ross: Sometimes it's just, what I love about your work is that sometimes it's just the perspective for me, it's the perspective and, uh, that distilling down and in a really accessible and simple way that is like blimey.

[00:35:14] Lou: Yes. And I think with like academia as well, is those, that kind of thing with papers to make them almost as wordy as possible. I think sometimes it loses that essence and loses a lot of audience who probably think that isn't for me. And there's so much helpful information in there.

[00:35:37] Ross: peacekeepers, don't be alarmed because we will put, uh, links to Louise's presence on various different websites and social media channels and shops, and the show notes for this.

[00:36:04] Lou: print, some like Christmas prints of that yet I've got a little red bubble shop now because people were asking whether they could buy it on things.

[00:36:32] Lou: So

[00:36:36] Lou: Could I mention some off, they say, well, what are the myths just come out actually, which is this one, which is, uh, the act work book for teens with OCD, which is Patricia is me to own a, I hope I've pronounced her Patricia's name. Right? Dr.

[00:36:54] Lou: illustrations.

[00:37:18] Lou: But with, uh, Dr. Michael Sinclair. Wow for all our super lovely friends. So that has been a joy to work with everybody. They will. I'm super excited for them to come out for the general public because they are going to be all going to be amazing books, I think all going to be so helpful. So I'd be lucky enough to see some of the content and yeah, I'm just thinking, wow.

[00:37:46] Ross: Yeah. Ah, I D I didn't realize there was this depth of engagement with the act spurts.

[00:37:59] Lou: [00:38:00] And I think having, like you said, meeting people at Dublin and Bristol and that as well as being. Yeah.

[00:38:20] Ross: That's really resonated.

[00:38:43] Lou: To take away at the end and things. And I've had some people from the NHS saying they framed them up and, and things like that. And I've had amazing people translate them. So there's been loads of different translations now and stuff. Wow. Look at

[00:38:54] Ross: look at the

[00:38:58] Lou: It just feels so rewarding. Cause I think like you said, it is that when I know Steve Hayes said that, you know, turning pain into purpose, you know, it's this, the anxiety, which for so many years I saw as a kind of burden, you know, it's actually been a kind of turning point to discover this amazing thing, to be able to combine the art and act.

[00:39:30] Ross: And I'd just like to say it ain't just luck.

[00:39:48] Lou: on? I think for me, it's just learning through act that you're not broken. You are just stuck and the act can help you get unstuck.

[00:40:07] Ross: Wow. Wow. You can make your stuff. It's great to hear you say that. And it's also great to hear you say it's never too late.

[00:40:21] Lou: me too. That it's still, like you said that it's, I've left it too. Late. Stories are allowed one. Yeah, he's the best might be yet to come. Who knows?

[00:40:42] Ross: You're just a beautiful human beings. I thank you for coming on the show and thank you for the role of song as well. Uh, which kind of threw me

[00:40:57] Lou: Well, yesterday I saw a quote by Dennis Church, which I think kind of really ties in really well with that song guy chosen. Um, and his quote was when you take your life back from anxiety, in a sense you take back your whole world. This life is yours. If you want it. And the cost is feeling your fear and taking action, no matter what, take back your world and live deeply.

[00:41:37] Ross: you. Thank you so much again, let me thank you.

[00:41:42] Ross: that's it. Pea supers in the bag. It's so lovely to hear Lou again. Thanks Henny. My invitation to you PC is, is to share what you loved about this episode. You can let me know on the socials or [00:42:00] drop me an email or even a voice note on WhatsApp. If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:42:38] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. Because I could quickly find it for you if you like.

[00:43:00] Lou: one second. So you can do your warm it up.

[00:43:11] Ross: tapping away now. Uh, I can't just get a handle on how it starts. You're going to

[00:43:27] Ross: I'm hearing jungle noise.