Tom Pepperdine interviews author, screenwriter, and award-winning podcaster, Mark Stay, about his writing process. Mark talks about having a central dramatic argument to each story, how he develops realistic characters, and going through the five stages of grief when receiving feedback.

Mark's books can be found here: https://markstaywrites.com/books/

His latest podcast, can be found here: https://markstaywrites.com/the-creative-differences-podcast/

His support for writers can be found here: https://markstaywrites.com/writer-services/

The Craig Mazin and John August podcast that's referenced in the episode can be found here: https://johnaugust.com/scriptnotes

And you can find more information about this podcast and previous episodes on the following links:

https://bsky.app/profile/realwritingpro.bsky.social

https://www.threads.net/@realwritingpro

https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro

Hello and welcome to the Real Writing Process, the show that finds out

how authors do exactly what they do.

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine, and this month we have a novelist,

screenwriter and award-winning podcaster.

I'm not bitter.

The wonderful Mark Stay.

I feel a lot of regular listeners are already aware of Mark's

excellent podcast, The Bestseller Experiment, over 500 interviews of

bestselling authors in eight years.

It's a bit excessive, isn't it?

And there are two of them.

I'm not bitter.

Anyway, he's also written some books and a couple of films, and they're

very good books and very fun films.

And he's an excellent guest who was very generous with his time and his advice.

And I think, honestly, this is one of my favorite interviews

for inspiring you to write.

His enthusiasm is infectious, and I hope it makes you as keen to seek out

his work as it does to get you writing.

It is a slightly longer episode this time because there's just

so much goddamn good stuff in it.

Anyway, enough Waffle.

Jingle interview.

Go.

And this month I'm here with Mark Stay.

Mark.

Hello,

Hello tom, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you.

Thank you for being on the show.

Oh, my pleasure.

Thank you for having me on.

I'm, I'm honored.

Great.

Well, my first question as always, what are we drinking?

Yorkshire Gold Tea.

Um, Bit of tea.

Bit of a brew.

Exactly.

My, my daughter got me some for Christmas and, um, Yorkshire Gold.

Bit pricey, but worth it.

Good stuff.

Good stuff to get you up.

Get up and going in the morning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it.

It's, it's a good time to have it.

And so is this now your writing drink?

Is this your writer's fuel?

Uh, yeah, that and chocolate Hob Nobs.

Okay.

It's, it's a weakness.

I've tried getting sponsorship from McVitty's, but my, uh, emails

have gone unanswered, sadly.

Well, well hopefully, you know, someone's listening so someone get in touch.

Someone in Big Biscuit is listening, hopefully.

Big biscuit.

Yes, absolutely.

And, um, where I'm chatting to you now, is this your, your writing desk?

Is this your office?

Yeah, I've, uh, I've got two desks.

Oh, two.

This is Mark "two desks" Stay.

So yeah, I've got a, my writing, my main writing desk is that one there by the

window, which is very distracting because it's springtime when we're recording this

and things are happening in the garden.

My wife's an amazing gardener and there are Blue Tits going in and out the box.

So in terms of procrastination, that chair there has given me hours of pleasure.

And then this one is where I, I mean, we'll talk about

process, title of the podcast.

I, I have a different desk here, which I generally use for

podcasting and, and stuff like that.

'cause this is the iMac, it's the slightly more powerful machine

with a bigger memory kind of thing.

Um, so yeah, but this is the room where it happens, the, the magic happens.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's just, um, it's, I'm very much in that Stephen King thing of

the closed door, you know, it's such a privilege just my commute now is

down the stairs and to this chair.

Two desks, but only one chair I don't wanna clutter.

Okay.

And, uh, you know, this is where I can do things in a bit peace and quiet.

Very nice.

And when coming up with your ideas, is there a sort of trigger that you go, oh,

that actually might make a good story.

And are you someone who comes up with scenarios first or is it a character or

is it kind of a world you want to explore?

How do your stories tend to develop?

It tends to be a, a combination of things.

The big thing that really helps me get a my head around it is, is having a good

central dramatic argument that is having a theme that can be posed as a question.

So I'll have, oh, that's an interesting situation.

That's an interesting idea, that's an interesting concept.

But they all exist in kind of isolation.

And I try to think of who, you know, in terms of character, who's the

worst person to put in that situation?

Who is the least capable?

'cause that's always good story fuel.

But it tends to come into place when I when I, develop a central dramatic

argument, which is a question, which is essentially what the thing is about.

And my, my writing life has changed a few years ago by a podcast by Craig Mazin

on the, uh, Script Notes podcast, which is a brilliant screenwriting podcast.

It's John August and Craig Mazin.

Craig Mazin writes the last of us and did Chernobyl, actually did some terrible

comedy films in the early two thousands and nineties and stuff like that.

But, you know, worked with Harvey Weinstein and has the scars to prove it

and has done everything in Hollywood.

And now he's become this incredible writer.

But he, he did a 45 minute thing which is on YouTube for free on script notes.

It's called How to Write a Movie, and he talks about central dramatic argument.

It uses Finding Nemo as an example because it is structurally just

perfect and thematically perfect.

And I saw that, I thought that's the missing part of the puzzle for

all these years because I've, I've always struggled with that kind of

thematic unity in, in storytelling.

So, uh, once a character, like I said, characters don't exist in isolation.

You can think of an interesting character, but until you put them in the

room with someone or the, the classic advice, if, if you're stuck with the

characters, how would they react if they drop their mobile phone you know, in a

puddle or if they, stub their toe, how do they react to different situations?

Everyone will react slightly differently.

Um, but for me it's how do they react to the thematic question?

How are they gonna address that through the story?

How and how are they gonna change?

And once they've got that story of change, particularly if you are writing

a one-off or screenwriting or whatever, by the time you get to the end of the

story, they've essentially got me the opposite what they were at the beginning.

That often gives the most satisfying story for a reader.

So it's once I've got those kind of elements that is, you

know, a character, an idea.

But for me, the thematic question is, is the really important one.

And it doesn't have to be mind blowingly original or anything like that.

It just has to be a question that you can debate that can give you story fuel.

So whenever, I hit, hit a wall.

And I don't, I don't get writer's block anymore.

I might hit a wall and think, okay, that's a sticky problem.

How do I figure that out?

I go back to theme and I write it.

You know, I have all these notebooks, separate notebook for each project.

I write it on the page there, or I'll pop it on a post-it note and I will go,

okay, that's the theme we come back to that how do we make it about that rather

than just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

And it brings it all back into focus.

And it's, like I said, changed, changed the way I write.

And I think all of my writing has improved greatly since I, I sort of got into that.

Yeah.

I do wanna talk to you about character.

'cause I find your characters really believable.

Oh, thank you.

And, uh, flawed.

And like, like you say, they, they go through real arcs.

Um, but how do you flesh out that character?

Is it something that, you write a little fake bio for them?

You do like a kind of an interview with them in your head?

Or are they based on people you know?

Um, how, how do you make them fully three-dimensional?

I just start writing little scenes with them.

And, uh, I, I've never got the bio thing that, again, it's just a

character doesn't exist in isolation.

You've got to get them in a room with someone.

And I hand write everything to start with and so I will be going,

okay, how are they reactors?

How do they adjust the team?

How are they gonna change?

I mean, I'm going through this process at the moment with a character.

And I think the key is not to rush it.

It's just to allow yourself, the room to breathe and just think how are

they gonna change over the course of this then, if that's the case,

I need them to be like this at the beginning and blah, blah, blah.

So I will essentially write little sketches.

Little conversations, uh, just to see, again, that, that thing of, if they stub

their toe, how are they gonna react?

But if they meet this other character that I'm thinking of,

how are these two gonna get along?

How are they gonna, you know, I, I tend to just jump in with both feet and just

start writing and getting it wrong.

I think it sort of comes, I, I started out wanting to be an actor.

I did a lot of acting.

I run a little theater company for a while.

And there's always a thing of just Getting the actors up on their feet and

improvising and blocking out a scene.

And just, uh, figuring out who's who.

And also what their role is in the story, uh, as a kind of an archetype, you know.

If it's, if it's your protagonist, then they're going

through that story of change.

If they're an antagonist, they're kind of the dark mirror of that.

Mm-hmm.

So you start asking yourselves those questions, well, how can these be the

worst people to interact with each other?

'cause that's what's gonna give us that, that grist, that kind of story grist.

And, um, I, I love language.

I love overhearing people's conversations and literally stealing from them

and jotting things down and just, you know, that's a lovely line.

And, yeah, I mean, no one is safe around a writer, frankly.

We're, we're magpies are always looking for those, those quirky little things

that, that, you know, it's humanity.

These, you know, these, these stories are all about humanity and the little quirks

and, and things that make us who we are.

So..

Yeah.

And, um, you've got your little notepad there and you mentioned

how you tend to just leap into sort of vert things at the start.

Um, is buying the new notebook a, you know, a core part of the process?

Do you, do you pick different ones or is it just a stack of bog standard,

you know, sort of same brand?

No, no, no.

They're all, they're all different.

The thing I worry about, I do worry about writers who ritualize things.

Like, I remember reading about George Lucas would only write on a yellow legal

pad with a particular kind of pencil.

And it, you know.

We all saw the prequels.

We know that didn't work out for the second time, you know?

Yeah.

You can't, you can't fetishize this stuff.

And, uh, I hear people go, oh, notebooks.

Oh, I, I'm scared of getting them, you know?

Scared of mucking them up.

It's like, look, just look at this.

This is just full of scribbles, things scribbled out, and none

of these notebooks are the same.

They're all a bit different.

People have sussed that I like notebooks and my kids get 'em for

me for birthdays and Christmas.

I've had a couple of readers send me notebooks as well.

You know, this, this one, the Astro Boy one was sent by a reader, which is great,

and I'm working on something on that.

Um, so, uh, no, I'm not fussy.

I don't fetishize it because you, that it's kind of a trap because you

think, oh, I have to write with this sort of pen, or I have to do this

kind of thing, blah, and then it, then it becomes an excuse not to work.

Well, I can't write because I haven't got my moleskin notebook,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

So, I've got a very eclectic collection of old notebooks on the shelves there.

So yeah, and, and it helps to have a separate notebook for

each project, because I can just pick it up where I left off.

I have a general notebook, which is this one here, which I just, you know,

again, I just use for, if we are having a conversation here, I've written down.

Real writing process podcast, Tom, so I don't forget your name, even

though it's on the same thing.

And if anything occurs to me as we're chatting, I'm gonna jot that down.

But I've also got, you know, notes on a new idea here as well, which hasn't

quite earned its own notebook yet.

Okay.

I haven't reached that point where I'm thinking, yeah, this is a thing.

It'll get to a point where I think I know what the central dramatic argument is.

I know what the character is, let's get a notebook going.

'cause the, the other mistake I've made is I started it too soon and you get three

pages into a notebook and you think, ah, no, this isn't, this isn't gonna work.

This isn't a thing.

So, um, so yeah, it's, you, you, this is, this will answer your question.

When it's notebook worthy, that's when I know I'm onto something.

Yeah.

It's like going from the generals of like, no, this, this needs its own notebook now.

Nice.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And, and you're not particularly about pens either, it's just whatever

writing implement you have to hand?

Well that said, the Parker Jotter.

The 'cause I'm left-handed and, and I'm cack handed and I write upside

down, so I can't do fountain pens.

I had a very kindly neighbor who tried to teach me calligraphy, um, to sort of

correct my, you know, cack handedness.

And all it did was get loads of Indian ink on my, on my hands.

So the Parker Jotter, oh, it's smooth baby.

This is the one I found my pen.

It's cheap.

Yeah.

It's replaceable.

If it's, if I lose one, I'll just pop to Smiths and get a,

you know, three more or whatever.

Yeah.

and it's, it's easy to hold.

It's nice and light.

Again, if Parker are listening, I am open to sponsorship offers.

Yeah.

Uh, but again, I, I can use anything, but, you know, not too fussy.

Yeah, that's, that's good to know.

And I think it's refreshing as well.

'cause yes, there are people who kind of fetishize what they use and it's

just like you say, it's a barrier.

Are you someone that when you are out and about, you always need

to have a pen and paper with you?

Or do you use phone apps?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I, I, I take the general notebook with me everywhere I go.

Because generally, you know, I met with a friend who's an author the

other day and we were having a chat and he said, oh, blah, blah, blah.

There's this thing coming up and I just, you know, put it in the

notebook just as a general record.

Uh, I, you know, I use the notes apps and things like that and email.

I generally email my myself stuff because then I come back and it's there on the

email and I can put it in a calendar or whatever I, I need to do with it.

Um, but uh, yeah, generally the notebook is where is where it all goes.

Because there, there is this direct line between my brain and the pen, that

seems to be faster than anything else.

Certainly on the keyboard of that, that sort of tyranny of the

blank page and the winking cursor.

Yeah.

Uh, can be a real block.

So I tend to, and I, you know, when I start writing in the morning, it is

kind of, okay, what are we gonna write?

I will literally write, our characters are here, what are they gonna do next?

Okay.

They've, they've done this and blah, blah.

So a lot of my notebooks are full of that kind of gibberish where I'm

essentially having a conversation with myself, but it gets the pen moving,

gets my mind working, and then after a couple of lines, I'm actually writing

something that might be usable.

Yeah.

Usually.

And are you someone who draws maps for their locations?

So they, like, everything has an internal logic.

Uh, do you do little sketches of characters?

Do you get an idea of what they look like?

Nah, I did have, I did have a brilliant author and artist and know, called Kit

Cox did a map for me for the end of Magic, which was in those first editions.

I've got rid of it 'cause I need to move bits of it around.

I need to move certain things closer.

So it's, uh, yeah.

Uh, um, and for the witches of Woodville, the Village of Woodville is essentially

a greatest hits of Kent Villages.

So there, there is a particular kind of church, there's a particular kind of

pub, there are various shops and things.

There's, you know, war Memorial and there's a wood.

But I sort of know what it looks like in my head and there is a kind of logic to

it, but I don't get into too much detail.

I, I don't wanna, I mean, Terry PRT famously resisted this for a long time

until someone else did it for him.

So I'm very happy to wait until I'm as successful enough as Terry for someone

else to come along and do it for me.

Because I think you need the breathing room in order to say,

well, yeah, you didn't know there was a garage down the road here.

But there is now.

Uh, I mean, it's interesting.

I've, I've doing the Corn Bride, which is the fifth, and for the moment final

of the Woodville books, I've gone back and revisited some of those locations.

So it's sort of come back on itself and it has its own kind of logic.

But for those first sort of two or three books, I was going,

oh yeah, I need a garage.

Oh, I need a railway bridge.

Oh, I need a, you know.

And it's like, yeah, I'll just chuck that in.

You know?

And I think if you do it the kind of swagger and confidence, if

just say, well, it was there all the time, you just didn't see it.

People don't mind, you know?

Yeah.

Don't let geography get in the way of narrative.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Totally.

And are you someone who likes to have a real world base on anything

and will do a bit of research?

Or do you just like to make it up and, you know, have your own logic?

Yeah.

Well with, um, the Witches of Woodville, I did a lot of research.

I mean the, the that series was sort of simmering away for about 12 years

before it became what it became.

I, I, I'd wanted to, talk about where ideas come from, I'd wanted

to write a story about a town where strange things happen.

And it was originally set in the here and now.

'cause I love reading the Fortean Times and they'll go and this

village in so-and-so, you know, the, some, someone disappeared and

then turned up three days later.

Or you got a, a village where things roll up a hill.

And I love all that.

And I, I wanted to do something set in the here and now.

A kind of a British buffy the vampire slayer with a kind of, you know, with some

hell mouth and I couldn't get it to click.

It didn't quite work.

And then it was, uh, my agent who said, why don't you set it during the war.

'cause he knew I had a bit of a fascination with that period

and he felt it might help sell.

And we just moved to North Kent where, you know, there's

a spitfire museum up the road.

There are pill boxes in fields.

About a week ago, they blew up an unexploded bomb from the war

in a farm field just around, literally around the corner from us.

I missed it.

I was gutted.

Um, and my, my wife got some footage of the explosion.

Oh wow.

Um, so, you know, that stuff is still around us here.

And I thought, okay, the war.

And actually setting it at that, time period allowed

me to heighten it all a bit.

'cause I pitched this series as dad's army meets bed knobs and broomsticks, you know.

So you got, magic and witches and witches versus Nazis and all that good stuff.

And it allowed me to heighten it a bit and then everything is like, oh, it works now.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's interesting.

So, um, but I wanted to ground it in the real world because years ago I used

to work for Headline Publishing, and back then they did a solid line of saga

fiction, what they used to call clogs and shuls, you know, that kind of stuff.

And as a rep, I used to get samples of everything we did.

And these books sold by the bucket load and did really, really well.

And I used to give my samples to a friend of mine, Doreen, and she'd give them

to all her friends and they love them.

And I said to her, what is it about these books that you love?

And she said, it's not necessarily the story she said, it's the little

things like knowing that the number 10 bus at Clapham went to so-and-so,

and, and she said, that stuff is what takes you back to that period.

That makes a difference.

And I thought, that's what I need to do with Woodville.

I need to take the little things and help ground those stories in reality.

So, and I, I was very, very lucky in that we had the mass

observation project going on.

So books like this, let me find it.

You know, books like Nella Lasts War.

Okay.

So she was part of, she's a, in September, 1939, housewife and

Mother Le Nella last began a regular diary that lasted for 30 years.

So it's, it's all her, you know, diaries in here and it's

all that day-to-day stuff.

Mm-hmm.

The rationing, the, the, the worker day stuff and it's just brilliant.

And what I did.

I mean, you'll see I've got lots of little notes here and blah, blah, blah.

That tends to not be that helpful.

But what I do now is I get these on ebook.

Okay.

'cause the eBooks are search searchable.

So for the Holly King, for example, I wanted to know how

people celebrated Christmas.

And there's a whole bunch of these called mass observation diaries books.

So I bought a bunch of those and you just start searching for Christmas

and you discover how people make Christmas cake while rationing was

happening, and little things like that.

And you don't overdo it, but you just pepper in enough of it just to make people

go, oh yeah, my dad used to do that.

Or, this feels real if they don't have that lived experience,

just to make it grounded.

And then, then when the magic comes and the witchcraft comes, they're

much more likely to believe and, and go along with that as well.

Um, so, and I go to, you know.

I've got a demigod in the Holly King, you know, in the wood

woves and stuff like that.

Yeah.

So, uh, you, you, your, your characters are very much grounded in

that real historical world, but then you're opening a door into kind of

magical stuff and I think people are much more likely to, to go with it

and, uh, yeah, it's worked so far.

No, absolutely.

I think, um, uh, nostalgia is large currency, in fiction.

Yeah.

But what I'd like to do is subvert that nostalgia.

Uh, I'm, I'm very wary of nostalgia as a, um, particularly when you're writing about

the war, it can get really jingoistic.

especially in Kent, he whispered, leaning closer to the microphone.

You know, I'm near Thanit.

This is the lot that voted for Brexit.

Okay.

Um, so, so for example, with, um, the ghost of Ivy Barn.

I was scratching that Battle of Britain Spitfire hurricane itch.

It's got dog fights in there, it's got a witch on a bicycle, having

dog fights with the, the luftwaffe.

But also the, the ghost in question is a Polish hurricane pilot.

And, I start researching into that and you discover there was

squadrons of Polish hurricane pilots.

We couldn't have won the Battle of Britain without them,

even though we let them down.

We promised them spit fires and hurricanes and we never gave them.

Churchill said, don't give them to them because they're basically screwed.

We need them to defend Britain in the battle of Britain.

So all that resentment that he had, you know, was, was part of his character.

Um, so, the, the nostalgia might be what draws people in, but I just

wanna, and I don't hammer people over the head with it like I am now.

I would just, you know, bring up the reality of it, that this is

how a lot of this stuff played out.

Yeah.

And I think that realism, comes through and how the sort of

characters interact with each other.

Yeah.

You know, sort of feels, um, very believable.

'cause Yeah.

The, you know, sort of, they're very believable characters.

Well that's, I mean, that, like I said, I think that comes from

a, a theater acting background.

I, I always enjoyed people like Mike Leigh or

David Mamet where, or John

Sullivan with Fools and Horses, where there's a lot of snappy dialogue, a lot

of overlapping dialogue, a lot of back and forth, all riddled with subtext, you

know, where people aren't quite saying what they wanna say and then eventually

they do say what they wanna say and you know, that stuff makes a big difference.

I remember watching, uh, Mike Leigh's Life is Sweet, with Alison Steadman

and Jane Horrocks, and they're arguing about, did you use my cotton wool balls?

And I remember calling my mom and sister down 'cause I was still at home.

They said, the mom, mom, they talk like us.

They, they argued like you two, you know, it was amazing.

Whereas shows like East Enders, nobody swore, you know?

Yeah.

Can never get on board with that.

whereas, you know, something like Mike Leigh and because those characters,

those actors inhabit those characters for months before they actually start filming.

It just has a, a reality to it.

So I always wanted to, particularly when writing fantasy, you know, the

End of Magic trilogy, which I'm hoping to finish soon, uh, the characters

that they don't speak, like, you know, the, and there's nothing wrong

with that kind of high fantasy speak that is in fantasy, but I wanted

them to feel like real human beings.

Especially as I'm gonna do terrible, terrible things to them.

And then you, you read someone like Joe Abercrombie and Scott Lynch, where,

you know, the characters they do feel real, they, they have a vulnerability

to them as well as the strength.

And that was a big inspiration for me thinking, oh, we can have

fantasy that feels like that.

Okay, great.

Let's go for it.

Yeah, there's, I feel, there's almost two tiers of fantasy where you have

like the courtly kingdom aristocracy and then you have the grunts.

And it's, it's the, it's the lower cast and it's actually having a balance between

the two where not a middle class, but just sort of, um, regular people exist.

Yeah.

I'm always, it's funny you say that I'm working on something at the moment that is

a kind of fantasy lower decks if you like.

Where we don't see the prince or the princess or the queen or,

or any of it goes on over there.

And then you've got the people have to come along and clean up the mess.

And that's a little way off.

Now that's not quite notebook worthy, but I'm working on it, so.

Nice.

Well, it's a good concept.

I, I'm, keen and intrigued, so hopefully, hopefully it comes notebook worthy soon.

Mm-hmm.

Um, on the other part of planning um, plotting.

With your stories.

You have your central argument, you have these characters and who

they'll come into conflict with.

The actual narrative plot, are you someone who will, you know, 'cause you said

earlier here how you just sort of jump in.

Do you have an ending point in mind when you start?

Or is it just like, here's where it begins and I'll start writing

and we'll find out where it ends?

Or do you need it to be actually quite structured?

Here are all the beats, I need to have a structure before I start.

No, I don't.

I used to be, and the difference is, you know, the end of magic.

I outlined that quite thoroughly before I, I finished that and, um, I mean, I did

this podcast, the bestseller experiment where we, I was co-writing Back To

Reality with another writer, and, and we were, our outline got to 50,000 words

we had Ben Arronovich on as a guest.

And that episode became known as the Ben Aaronovitch bollocking, uh,

because he was like 50,000 words I've written and published stuff

that's, you know, short than that!

But that was 'cause we were two of us and we wanted to be singing from the

same hymn sheet and also screenwriting.

You have to outline.

But when I'm doing my own stuff now, what's important, central dramatic

argument and knowing where the character ends emotionally, if you like.

I don't necessarily even have the scene, but if they start out as, you know, A

then they've gotta be Z by the end of it.

You know, they've gotta be a different person.

It's me figuring out who they are by the end of that.

Then I just jump in and I just go, okay, what's the worst

thing that can happen to them?

That, that's, that's generally how I go from chapter to chapter to chapter.

Okay, what terrible thing can I inflict on them now?

How can I punish them?

How can I punish them?

But as I punish them, they dust themselves off, they get a bit

stronger, or they fall by the wayside, or they decide they're gonna

sacrifice themselves to do something.

And by the end of it, they're so bruised and battered, they have changed.

And they've usually got to where I wanted them to end up emotionally, which is the

opposite where they were at the beginning.

And that's lots of fun.

And I can, I can do that with my own stuff because I can take my time with it.

And stop and explore and have those little moments where I'm going, okay,

where, where are we now in their journey?

Where are we now?

'cause you can't just, you can't just constantly be battering them.

They have to have those positive moments where they learn something

and, and move on and, and evolve.

So that's quite an indulgent process, but it leads to a pretty strong first draft.

Whereas when I'm screenwriting, we do outline a lot.

Um, because there's two of us or three of us working on something.

I was gonna ask the difference between your screenwriting and novel writing.

Do the ideas sort of germinate in the same way?

Or is it more things are pitched with others when it comes to screenplays?

Well, I mean, the, just to go back to novels for a minute, the big

difference is the, the internal voice that you have with novels.

Uh, whereas I'm getting inside the character's head and I can

have them sort of going, oh my God, what's happened to me now?

How do I get beyond this?

Uh, but yeah, screenwriting.

I'm very much working in service of the production.

So most of the stuff I've worked on has been with Jon Wright, who directed

Robot Overlords and Unwelcome, but we've also written tons of stuff

together that's never got made such as the nature of screenwriting.

And it's usually Jon who will have the idea I've sort of given up trying to

foist ideas upon him, um, because he's the one who has to stand on set and

you know, directing is such hard work.

It really is hard work.

It gobbles up a year of your life, at least.

You're constantly bombarded with questions.

It's so much pressure.

So it has to be something that he loves.

And, uh, so that's why usually the idea comes from him.

But luckily Jon doesn't enjoy the writing process, whereas I love it.

So he'll come to me and say, I've got this idea.

Here are some things I wanna see in the story.

Here's what I think it's about.

And we'll have conversations we'll have lots of back and forth.

I'll be taking notes and it sort of develops out of that.

And then we will generally do a short outline, or put together a

pitch document if we're trying to get someone to pay us to do it.

So that's how it sort of works with Jon.

More recently, I've been working with the author Rowan Coleman.

During lockdown, Rowan came to me and she said, I always

wanted to write a screenplay.

Do you wanna work on something?

And we found one of her short stories that was just perfect to become

this kind of big screen romcom.

So we started working on that together.

And um, the short story is essentially a scene from the movie.

It was like the meet cute of a romcom.

I said, this is like already written itself and we just need

to find out what happened before and, and where she goes after this.

And so we, you know, we were spitballing ideas a around that.

And that evolved and that's, that's got producers attached.

We're searching for a director for that at the moment.

Um, but I've also co-written a novel with Rowan.

She sent me a a one page outline.

And then the pair of us built that to like a five page outline

and then we started writing it.

And what happened there was this, it's first person present tense as

a male character/ female character.

She wrote the female character.

I wrote the male.

And what we would do, we'd have a Zoom meet 'cause she's up

in Scarborough, I'm down here.

We'd have a Zoom chat like this.

We'd record it, we'd say, this is what we want to happen in the

next chapter, blah, blah, blah.

Uh, that that'll be fine.

Yes, yes, yes.

Right.

Go.

And we'd record it.

Download the recording, make notes from that, write the

chapter, then send it to whoever.

You know, I'd send my chapter to her and she'd go, you know,

oh, change that, change that.

But otherwise, great.

And vice versa.

And that was, that was interesting working like that.

So I'm, I'm always, I never write a novel the same way twice.

And I'm always keen to collaborate with people.

'cause you always learn so much.

I mean, having done the bestseller Experiment podcast

in 450 episodes or whatever.

It becomes very, very clear, and you'll know this yourself,

Tom, from talking to authors.

There's no one way of doing this.

Yeah.

You, you develop your own way of doing things.

Whatever works for you, but you should also allow it to

change and grow and evolve.

This is what I was talking about, that fetishization of the process.

You know, having a certain pen, having a certain, so I think you need to

shake things up as, as much as you can.

So each book I've written, a different way each time and

it's, it's evolved and there are different challenges with each book.

And you, you just have to, mm-hmm.

Figure, well, I, I can't fix it the way I did with the previous book.

How am I gonna overcome it this time?

Yeah.

And so once you've done your initial plotting and, and things and you're

sitting down and actually, doing the writing, the nuts and bolts of it.

Uh, what's a typical writing session look like for you?

Do you have like, set hours during a day?

Do you keep it quite structured?

Yeah, I'm generally down here at 7:30 and I will write to about 9, 9 30 on

Project A. That'll be my main thing.

So at the moment, that's the End Of God's, the end of this trilogy

and I'm making notes for that and or writing a chapter or whatever.

And that will be doors closed phone on, I have this little app where I

mean, I'm saying don't fetishize things, but I do, I got, I got an app

called Forest, which is a focus app.

And it's, I can grow little trees with that.

And I've got a little forest.

Okay.

And it's my little reward to myself.

But it's, it is good 'cause it tells me how long I focus for today.

Yeah.

and I can keep a track of that.

And I move the phone as far away from me as possible.

'cause the, the, you know, just have big, oh, just let me

just look up how airships work.

Uh, and before you know it, you're on bloody Facebook again.

Um, so yeah, I, I will sit over there and just I mean, this

morning I worked for an hour.

I stopped after an hour because I solved a particular problem.

I thought, well done, Markie, that's your lot done for the day.

And it, I've left it at a point where I can pick it up tomorrow.

Just left myself a note saying, you know, this is what you're gonna do.

My process.

If it's anything, it's like, uh, Gromit in The Wrong Trousers.

You know, he is on the train laying out the train track in front of

him?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That, that's me.

Okay.

That's me with, uh, with story.

I'm, I'm kind of going, okay, so what's gonna happen tomorrow?

Maybe you could try this.

And I might do three lines so when I sit down tomorrow, I go, alright,

that's what I'm doing today.

Okay.

Right.

Let's, let's see if we can make that work.

And start jotting down ideas.It's.

You know, I might write a chapter a week like that.

So I, I'll come in on the Monday 'cause I've stopped writing weekends 'cause I'm

doing comic cons and things like that now.

I tend not to write much at weekends.

So I'll sit down and, and go, okay, I'm gonna write a chapter this week.

So it will start with, what's the worst thing that can happen?

Who are we with, blah, blah, blah.

And then I'll do a very rough, handwritten outline and then I start typing it up.

And then by the time I've typed it up, it's in pretty good shape.

It's almost, you know, first draft ready kind of thing.

And you know, then move on to the next thing.

So, um, yeah, it's fun.

It's my most fun part of the day.

And then I will get up and move around and get the blood flowing and put

the washing on or the dishwasher or vacuuming or something like that.

And then I come around about mid-morning, usually mid-morning

I have a Zoom call with someone like Rowan or Jon or whatever.

Little story meeting or something.

Then I'll break for lunch, and then in the afternoon I'll probably make

notes from that Zoom meeting or, or whatever about screen project

B. You know, so there'll be a be a screenplay or something I'm working on.

And then by the end of the afternoon it's usually admin and social

media or something like that.

That's how it should be on paper.

It doesn't always work like that, you know, it's, um, yeah,

it's usually a bit of chaos.

But that's my perfect day, my perfect writing day, Tom.

Oh, that's fine, Mark.

Well, it's interesting that the chapter a week rather than, you know, having a word

count or, so any kinda like daily targets.

Just like you've got a two hour block that you may fully use or you may not, but

it's just that, fulfill this challenge.

You know, this is what I've got to do today.

And once that's done.

I'm done.

is I think quite a nice for the dopamine reward is just like,

if I can get this done quickly..

Chocolate hobnob time.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

I mean knowing when to stop is quite a key component of this gig.

You know, you don't want to keep going beyond your prime.

Um, I'm not just talking about career, just, you know, in your

daily, daily word, count or whatever.

Uh, you know, if you think, actually this is, this is cooking, this is really good.

I might stop now.

Because I know that when I pick it up in the morning, it'll still be cooking.

And it'll, I'll keep that momentum going.

I've heard you talk to people about stopping mid-sentence.

I, You know, I, I don't necessarily stop mid-sentence, but I,

I might stop mid-scene just thinking this is really good.

Yeah.

And it's gonna be good tomorrow.

Tomorrow Me will thank me for leaving this, you know, with the momentum going.

Rather than just keeping going, keep it going and then eventually

collapsing and thinking, no, I, I should have stopped half an hour ago.

Because, uh.

It's, it's some, you know, little sprints.

You can write little sprints.

Very often, you know, I, I will find myself with, we are in the middle of

nowhere here, so everyone needs a lift.

I'm constantly taxi dad, so my son will be going to doing a shift at

work or whatever, so I will know I've got 40 minutes to do, so I shut the

door, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And those can be really productive.

Really, really productive.

Where you, um, you basically set yourself a, a time limit.

And you get more done those 40 minutes you might in a, in a whole day otherwise.

Well, you, yeah.

As you mentioned earlier, Ben Aaronovich does very short writing

days 'cause it's less to edit.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, it's just,

Well, I, I dunno if his days are short.

I know that his word count isn't great.

I think he, he, he works very hard to make the words that he writes count.

And they're usually the, the words that you see in the final draft,

he's quite meticulous about that.

So he might have only written 800, whatever it was, or

200 whatever words a day.

But they usually end up in the final draft of the novel.

But you know, like I say, everyone has their own way of doing it, so.

Yeah.

Is there any, you said you don't have writer's block, but are there

any points where you completely lose faith in the project?

Like you have a severe imposter syndrome of, I'm done.

This is the one where I get found out.

Uh, I'm a terrible writer.

It's usually when you read other people's stuff.

You know, if I read Mike Carey or you know, Ben Aaronovitch or,

or anyone where it's finished and you think, oh God, this so good.

What am I doing?

But then you just have to remind yourself that they probably had crummy first

drafts and they had to rewrite them.

and then, you know, stuff gets finessed.

So, I will hit walls.

There will be stuff that I think, oh God, what happens next?

But I will, I just, it's a problem.

It's a problem.

Writing is problem solving and failing a little less each time.

Yeah.

You know, and you've got to enjoy that process.

And some people will take days off and walk away from it and whatever.

And for me, I tend to work on something different.

So if I'm, if I'm like, oh God, the novel's a bit, you know, I'm

a bit, you know, stuck on this and I'll work on a screenplay instead.

And by the time I've finished the screenplay, I, I've come back to

the thing, oh, you know, that works.

But nine times outta 10, getting your ass in the chair and

scribbling solves the problem.

And because I use a pen, I'm not typing on into a document on a screen.

I will write, how the hell do I get out of this one?

What's wrong with this?

Why is this not worth?

I literally write those words and then answer my own question.

And like I say, it's like the ravings of a madman.

If anyone was to pick these up.

But that's just me.

If I try and do it in my own head, I will be distracted.

I, you know, I'll be sitting here looking at the daffodils and Claire's

little fairy garden and the blue tits going out of the box and it's like, you

know, Homer Simpson with the monkey.

You know, tapping the thing together.

Whereas if I'm hunched over my notebook with bad posture, scribbling away.

Going, how the bloody hell am I gonna get out of this one?

That works!

It's, I'm just addressing the problem and I tend to fix it, nine times outta 10.

Sometimes I'll, it might take some time.

Yeah.

So it's just, you know.

I, I remember talking to screenwriters, Mark Huckabee and Nick

Osler, who work a lot in kids tv.

Uh, they did The Moomins and things like that where you

are up against the deadline.

You're in a writer's room, you can't afford to go, oh, I need

a couple of days for this.

They got their producers on the balls going, where's the script?

So they have to deliver.

So it was an important lesson to learn from them that this is, this is a job.

Yeah.

And this is a privilege.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you know, I'm able to do this sort of full time.

Thank God Claire's got a proper job.

Um, and spend some time doing it.

I mean, I used to write in my commute and my lunch break and

all that kind of thing, you know.

And that was handy 'cause you had thinking time between those sessions

where you could mold these things over.

But I'm not gonna be one of those people who goes, oh, it's so hard today.

It's, this is the gig.

And I've done proper jobs before and since, you know, over Christmas,

over Christmas, I was, um.

I realized I had no money writing money, cut, none coming in.

I had a tax bill and Christmas, so I got a job, uh, on a Tesco

truck delivering over Christmas.

And uh, it was, you know, I've never been, so I lost weight over Christmas.

But it was like, oh, this is a proper job, but I've got a boss again.

And it's like, and they were lovely, don't get me wrong.

They were lovely people to work with.

But I was like, I just love the commute of coming down the stairs.

I've got, so I, you know, I just, how do I get back into

situation where I'm, you know.

So I, I realized what a privilege is.

You're never gonna hear me complain about writing on social

media because I bloody love it.

And the problem solving is part of the process.

And that's what I, and it is about just writing down and figuring it out.

And until you, you know, your head bleeds.

Well, I think, you know, it's one of the benefits of the notebook

is 'cause it's a working document.

It's you telling the story to yourself.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I mean, like I say, each of their own, some people they go straight to the laptop

and they get a, a really good first draft and there's that thing, what's it called,

writing into the dark or, or something.

Where people would just, they don't stop to correct spelling mistakes.

They just get it all down there and it's, it is the proper kind of vomit draft idea.

And they, they tend to be very prolific authors.

Uh, it tends to be the more experienced authors, I think.

They can, they can do that.

Uh, and I'm, and that's kind of what I'm doing in a notebook.

Then I type it up and, you know.

Clean it up as you go.

Yeah.

Hop into Scrivener.

So.

Yeah.

Uh, scrivener's a very popular app.

I'm hearing more and more about people using Scrivener.

'cause I think, 'cause you can have the split screen of your drafts and so you.

I dunno why anyone uses Microsoft Word anymore.

It was never designed, it was designed for memos.

It was designed for office memos and presentations and documents.

It was never designed for 80, 90,000 words of a novel.

Yeah.

That's why it crashes all the bloody time.

And now you've got this, is it co-pilot or some crap AI crap

saying, oh, that's rather aggressive language you're using there.

Uh, do you wanna tone that down a bit?

No, piss off because, you know, I'm writing an action scene or whatever.

Whereas Scrivener totally nonjudgmental.

And also it's great for a search because you can, you know, you can

put websites into it and images and, and that kind of thing.

And it's all there in one document.

The thing it can't do is track changes when you come to editing.

But then I use Apple Pages.

I don't use Word.

Apple pages, perfect for that, you know?

So, um, yeah.

Yeah.

And with your rewriting and your editing, do you write everything freehand and

then type it up at the end as a you know, that's your first draft revision,

or when you say you, you pause mid action and you come back the next day.

Is there a bit of revision of the day before?

What I do, I will write by hand and then maybe the same session I'll type

it up, or the next day I type it up.

Mm-hmm.

I'll come and then I'll go, okay, excellent.

And then what I type up isn't exactly what's on the page, that it gets improved

and embellished and changed and update it.

So it's notebook screen, notebook, screen, notebook screen.

And then I've got a first draft.

And then when I've finished that first draft I do what I call the edit triage.

Okay.

Because, you know, you'll, that very first draft is like, uh, it's unformed

clay or a body on a gurney that's been, that's gone through the wars.

And you're thinking, well, God, how do we, right.

We'll have to slip the guts back in there, or whatever, or, you know, yeah.

Sew them up there.

And, uh, so I will read it and make notes again by hand.

And, uh, then I tend to edit in, in threads.

I go, okay, my main character isn't working, or my protagonist isn't working.

Let's just concentrate on that.

And that only, and I make notes and, and focus on that one thing.

And then I go back and find something else that's not working.

And the triage is right, let's fix the big things first.

What's really not working in this story?

Okay, that's not working.

That's what way blah, blah, blah.

Let's go and fix those.

And then we can do the smaller stuff, and then we can finesse it.

So it's very much a macro to micro kind of thing.

And it's tricky, because the temptation while you're working on character A is

like, oh, there's character B there.

I really need to fix that too.

Nope.

No, resist that.

Just keep going, fix them.

And then what you find is it all blends really, really nicely.

Because it's all thematic, because it's all has that unity of theme.

Because you've been doing that in the first draft, it kind of makes the edit

a bit easier because everyone's kinda singing from the same hymn sheet again.

They're all, all, all on the same track in terms of theme.

So, um.

That's worked so far.

Uh, I am trying to wrap up a trilogy, which is hard.

Um, so ask me again in six months.

But, yeah, I tend to, I tend to sort of do it in little Yeah.

Threads of let's focus on this one thing and then fix the big stuff first

and then whittle it down, you know?

And so once you've got it as, 'cause you can get in isolation.

So you've, you've gone back, you've gone through all these threads.

Everyone's singing from the same hymn sheet.

Who's the first person to read it next?

Do you go straight to editor?

Does your wife read it?

Do you have beta readers?

It wouldn't be my wife.

God.

She's got, she's got the worst reading habits, so very much.

I mean uh, With the crow folk, she was my bell ringing expert.

Okay.

Because, uh, she's a bell ringer has been since she was 12.

She's like the, Jeff Becker of Bell Ringers in the, everyone

wants her in their band.

So she goes around all over the, you know, southeast ringing.

So I said, I did promise her I'd make the bell ringers, the heroes in a novel.

And, uh, I just gave her the bell ringing bits and she made a concerted effort to

read it, go through it with a red pen and go, no, no, actually that works.

Yes, put that back in.

Um, no, I've, I have a couple of beater readers and we have

a reciprocal arrangement.

Uh, they read my stuff.

I read their stuff.

And, um, it's a real treat because they're both really good

and it's not a chore at all.

And they've learned my bad habits.

So I'll do a messy first draft.

No one gets to see that messy first draft, that's dirty laundry.

And then I'll tidy that up and get to a point where I think it sort of

works, and then I'll say to them, okay here's the first draft, air quotes.

Um, can you tell me if the ending works?

Can you tell me if the, you know, I, I'll have something that I kind of

know might be wrong with it, but I just need to hear it from someone else.

And I give them some kind of focus.

And then they come back with usually really good notes.

And because there's two of them, I look for the common bumps in the road.

And address those.

And then that's the triage thing again, you know.

What's, you know, start with the big move down to the small.

And then, uh, sometimes it'll go to my agent, or I send it to agent

and publisher at the same time.

I'm self-publishing a lot more as well.

So I will, you know, I've got an editor that I will hire,

and it then goes to them.

But by the time the editor gets it, it's in pretty good shape.

I've been very lucky in that I've never had any big structural changes.

It's usually something along the lines of, you know, just try and

dig a bit deeper with this character or, I'm a nightmare for timelines.

Um, you know, People having breakfast and dinner at the same time.

But again, it's, it's not a structural thing, it's just a you

know, the odd tweak here or there.

We usually fix it.

I'm not moving act two into act three or anything like that.

So, um, yeah, I've been quite lucky so far.

But again, that's just a part of the process, I guess.

And how are you when it comes to getting the notes back?

Because some people, it's as like, great, stuff to work on.

Others, I need to have a stiff drink and a lie down and I'll

come back to this tomorrow.

Uh, how are you good with that criticism and that, that feedback, for the readers?

I'm getting better at it.

Um, it's, it's, it's a bit like the, to be flippant, it's a bit like

the stages of grief: anger, denial, eventually coming to acceptance.

I mean, when I get the email from the editor, my reply, instant

replies, this is brilliant.

Thank you very much.

Bye.

Yeah.

Uh, and then I'll look at it.

And the thing is, when you've got a good editor, and I've been blessed

to have very, very good editors, they will nail the stuff that you knew

in the back of your head that you, you might have taken a shortcut or

you just thought, oh, that'll do.

And it won't do, and you know, you have to go back and, and address it.

But, eventually you come to that acceptance where you

go, yeah, they're right.

This is gonna mean more work.

Okay, fair enough.

But again, I've learned that it's part of the process.

See that's with editors and authors.

In the film world, you sometimes get notes from people who are not that

creative and you know, might struggle to write something themselves.

So again, you look for the common bumps in the road.

And, uh, you do have to engage because the difference there is

there's so much more at stake in terms of budget and the production.

And you are just a kind of mere cog in this.

Particularly if you are already in production and the, the

train is leaving the station.

You can't really stamp your feet down and say, well, but what about my genius?

You know?

You have to, you have to engage with them and figure out the problem.

Generally, again, I've been very lucky.

The people I've worked with have been very, very smart and, uh,

have wanted to do the right thing.

And sometimes you can't, you know, you lose a location or, um we had

a thing on Unwelcome, which we shot in that Covid sandwich, uh,

sort of September, October, 2020.

Uh, the lockdown sandwich where suddenly it was all right to go

out and make a film, you know?

And we had, um, Colm Meaney in the cast.

He's a brilliant actor, but he was vulnerable.

And we had, um, one of the cast got COVID and we had to shut down for a short while.

And so they sent him home, and he still had a scene to shoot.

So that was an interesting one, whether I, what do we do?

So I took, repurposed the scene and gave it to, gave it to the,

the characters of his kids.

And it improved, you know, it was, it was a better scene, I think.

'cause it gave them more to do.

And they were, they were just fantastic.

It's that thing of thinking on the fly and, and, and finding

those solutions to those problems.

Um, again, you, you just have to learn it's part of the process.

And the more I've done it, I won't say it gets easier, but you just, you develop

strategies for, for dealing with it.

And going, okay, this is going to make it better.

You, you know that it's going to make it better.

And it will improve things and ultimately make you look better.

So, roll with it.

And when it comes to finishing a project, and I, I feel this will

have a different outcome for the collaborative screenwriting and

your own IP, your own novels.

But once it's all done and dusted and you're no longer having to be in that

world, no longer with those characters, is it a kind of a relief because you've

got a b project that, okay, I can now redirect, focus on something else?

Or is there any element of grief of, I really enjoy being in that world.

Oh, I really enjoyed working with that group of people and I'm not

gonna see them every day now.

And yeah, just what's the ratio of grief to relief?

Uh, at the end of a project?

I have got a bit choked up at the end of a couple of projects.

And I mean, the, the movies have not helped me.

You watch something like Misery where he celebrates by, and this is Stephen

King who should know better, uh, where, where, you know, he has a particular kind

of whiskey and he smokes a particular kind of, and he, again, ritualizing,

fetishizing the process of finishing.

That's not the end of the book.

He's just written the first draft.

There's gonna be three bloody rewrites and copy edits and proofreading

and all that stuff as well.

You know, and so you, you kind of think there, there isn't that moment

where you go, rah, it's, I mean, authors again, we perpetual, I,

I've put the end up on social media.

Just say, yay, I finished the draft where I know it's not the end, you know.

And you constantly making changes.

And you know, with The Corn Bride, the new book, Georgie, my editor, she's brilliant.

She's very forensic, after the proofread she's going, I've spotted something.

Oh, oh, Georgie.

But you know, you come back to, you go, oh God, she's right.

So you have to change that as well.

So it's this incremental thing, and then you get the book come to you, you know.

So it's usually, it is usually after maybe the first rewrite that you think,

okay, this is the shape of it now.

Yeah, I'm gonna tweak things and blah, blah, blah.

But this is, this is what it is.

Oh, that's a shame.

I don't get to play with these, these guys anymore.

So yeah, I can get a bit choked up, but like you say, uh, okay, cup

of tea, do the washing, uh, right.

Oh God.

Bloody script rewrites.

Right.

Let's get into this.

So, you're back on, back on a different horse, but it's great.

Wouldn't, wouldn't, wouldn't change with the world.

But it's, it is interesting as you seem to be coming to a close on

two franchises that you've done.

So The Witches of Woodville, you know, that's five books.

Yeah.

That, that's just done.

I know you're doing, uh, end of God's.

The, the end of that trilogy.

Those are things that have been with you two worlds for years.

Two world wars.

Yeah, no,

it's, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

And, um, I'm gonna take a break from Woodville, but I will come back to it.

I've got a couple of ideas for, for where it could go and

spinoffs and things like that.

Um, but I do wanna take a break from it because I, I was with The Corn Bride.

I was thinking, there were moments I had in the first draft where I

thought, oh no, I've done that before.

Oh, shoot.

Am I repeating myself?

And I don't want to repeat myself because then One thing I learned

from the stage, darling, is always leave them wanting more.

Yep.

So, uh, you know, you wanna, you want to end on a high.

Uh, and End Of Magic trilogy is a trilogy, so that's cool.

So this is where, you know, I've got a couple of other ideas, like

I said, that Lower Decks kind of fantasy idea where it's on the boil.

So I am jotting things down and, you know, ideas are coming together.

And there's a standalone horror novel that I'm sort of jotting at, and

that's, I've got a Google doc for that.

Funny enough.

Okay.

Uh, where ideas are occurring to me, and I can do that on my

phone and just jot things down.

That's, that is almost notebook worthy.

We are almost there.

And yeah, that kind of Lower Deck fantasy idea that, that a thing with that,

'cause it's a fantasy world, there's a part of me going, oh, world building.

Where I know if I start going too far down that road, it

can get a bit self-indulgent.

Whereas the horror thing is contemporary.

It's set in the real world.

So I, when someone has a coffee, I don't have to worry about what part

of the fantasy world it's come from and what they might call it, you know?

Uh, which is refreshing.

so, uh, yeah, we'll see.

But, I, I think ideas are overvalued.

And particularly people who aren't writers and you're finding this, any

writer will tell you they'll have, once they've been published, I've had

this, you know, friends and family culture, right I've got an idea, right?

I got the idea.

You write it, we split 50 50.

It's like, that's not how, you know, it's not how it works, it's the execution.

Any dingbat can come up with an idea you've actually got to do, do the work.

So I got, you know, I've got lots of ideas sort of backing

up there and, uh, waiting to go.

But it's, um, it's like, which one is which one is the one that's gonna grab me?

And so I am very much, you know, as you say, at the foot of the

mountain with these things.

But it's having been through it so many times before you think, yeah, I. yeah,

it's gonna be tough, but I've been here before and just enjoy the process.

That's, that's, you know?

It'll be exciting to see where, you know, I like to revisit people in five years.

Yeah.

And so like, you know, sort of like where you were five years ago to where

you are now, to where you would be in five years time is exciting to think.

Well, I mean, you, you never know what's around the corner.

We've got a, um, it's a TV project we've been developing.

We've got a really good producer attached to it.

And if that takes off, that's all consuming.

I don't think I'd be able to write novels while that's going on.

But the odds of that are, I mean, we've got a producer, we've got a director.

It might happen, um, but then it might not, you know, it's kind of, you know, so.

Touch wood.

Yes.

So, well, I'll go on to my final two questions, but Mark, it's been an absolute

pleasure and you've been great guest.

Oh, my pleasure.

So it's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their

writing with every story they write.

Mm.

Was there anything in particular that you learned from your last

finished project that you're now applying to your latest project?

Well that's interesting 'cause they're both, like I say, they're

both wrapping up uh, series there.

Yeah.

Uh, and I think with The Corn Bride, it was to leave the door

open for further adventures.

Because I think, uh, I mean this happened with the End Of Magic.

The End of Magic.

When I was first writing, I think this could be a trilogy and

it was published with Unbound.

Mm-hmm.

And it was a crowd funded project.

Yeah.

And about three quarters of the way through the crowdfunding, I thought,

I never want to do this again.

That said, I'm looking to Kickstarters for a couple of things.

So, you know, I never say never, but I got, I got two

thirds of the way through that.

And, and I'd also seen other authors on Unbound and on Kickstarter, who with

their first book had raised money and all gone great for their second and

third book they were really struggling.

Because it's like, if you've ever worked in an office and you have someone who

does a 5K charity run, oh yeah, I'll chuck your five or whatever, and then they're

doing one every three months or whatever.

It's like, why am I funding your hobby now?

So it's, I I, I saw people were really struggling.

So I made, when I got to The End Of Magic, I thought, I'm

gonna make this a one and done.

One and done fantasy, you know?

And, uh, but I did leave the door open a bit for further adventures, and then

I got the rights back from Unbound.

I thought, oh, I can do that trilogy now.

And, uh, and the 'cause that door was open, I was able to go

back and go, okay, brilliant.

It's five years on.

We'll pick up our characters from there and, and go for that.

So that's something I learned from The End Of Magic.

But I, I applied it to, you know, The Corn Bride and I've, uh, without

spoilers, the very final chapter is like, this is what the next thing could be.

So with The End Of God's it will wrap things up, but you never know.

There could be, could be further adventures down the

line, but it is important not to get stuck in a rut, I think.

Having worked in publishing, I've met a lot of authors who struck gold

with a particular kind of book that they're then condemned to rewrite for

20 years, and then when they try and do something different, it doesn't work.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, that's the kind of the curse of success in a way.

Uh, where, you know, certain kinds of authors end up writing stuff

that just makes them miserable.

Mm. Um, and then they try and do the thing they really want to do.

You see it with musicians as well.

It's the Spinal Tap thing.

You know, jazz Odyssey.

The audience says like, no, this is what we want from you and

just keep churning out this.

Okay.

I mean, I've, I've kind of been lucky.

Lucky was it, it's not like it was planned, but the first sort of five

books I wrote were all very different.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there was Robot Overlords, which is a film tie in, there was

End of Magic, which was fantasy.

There was Back to Reality, which was a time travel body swap thing.

And then there was The Crow Folk and uh, so they're all kind of very different.

So no one's going, oh, you are that author who does the one thing.

Yeah.

They're going, you are that author who's really difficult to sell.

'cause everything he does is a bit bit, not different enough,

but kind of different ish.

So, okay.

It's a curs and a blessing.

Yeah.

Well, you know, there's flexibility there and you know, I think there's

definitely, you'll have people who are fans of different things.

You can bring different audiences in.

Yes, I've, I've done, and you know, for example, my mother-in-law, she loves

The Witches Of Woodville and she said, I, I tried The End Of, it's not for me.

Fair enough.

I totally understand.

If you don't this, I've got something else, I've got something

in the back, you'll, I'll find something that you'll like.

Exactly.

Well, I, I've been doing these Comic-Con, which has, uh, been fantastic.

I get a table and I've got all my books there and 'cause

I've got a sales background.

And also my family.

Were all, you know, my, my uncle, Desmond as per Ober d ob, he had a

barrel in the marketplace in, you know, in, in the lane in Woolworth.

You know, so it, I, I can sell.

Yeah.

I know how to sell and I'm selling myself.

So I've, I'll say, oh, Woody r here, witchcraft.

We got, we've got magic, we've got fantasy.

You know, and I will pitch and engage with people and I love it.

'cause I've tried Facebook ads and Amazon ads like this.

I, the house always wins.

It never works for me.

But when I'm one-on-one.

I can sell books.

So, um, yeah, so I'm, I'm on this, on this crusade this year

to do as many Comic-Cons as I can.

It can be exhausting.

You know, I was driving a Bournemouth and back yesterday, but it was worth it.

I sold a lot of books, got a lot of new readers, met some wonderful

people, met some fellow authors out there doing the same thing.

It's great.

I love it.

So it's, it's kind of revitalized me as well in that.

Um, so that's what's taken up a lot of my weekends at the moment.

And you learn a lot just from engaging with your readers, finding out who they

are, the sort of things that they like, the sort of things they, they react to.

And that's huge.

That, that's, I think that's the great, I know we're all very concerned about

AI at the moment and publishing is in a difficult place and there's a lot of

redundancies and people are, people in publishing are massively overworked.

But I think as authors, if we can develop that one-to-one relationship

with our readers via, I newsletters or social media or, or going to

Comic-Con and things like that.

Then I think if we've got that relate, that direct relationship,

we don't have to worry about Amazon or publishers or anything like that.

We've got that direct link, and that, I think is gonna be the, the

key to the future I think of, of, sustaining a career as an author.

For me anyway, that's, that's what I'll be doing.

I'll say again.

Ask me again in five years.

Yeah.

Now my last question is always, is there one piece of advice you find

yourself returning to with your writing?

But I also know that you coach other writers and as you have done

podcasting about writing processes and you know, The Bestseller Experiment.

So I'll, I'll ask it in two parts.

What's the one bit of writing advice that resonates with you and what's

the one bit advice you, you find yourself telling other people the most?

Um, the bit that resonates with me, I think it is the Craig Mazen

central dramatic argument thing.

That completely changed how I write.

It was like someone opened a door, it was like, oh, right, I can do this now.

Mm.

Um, so finding a good central dramatic argument, having that thematic unity.

Mm. Uh, really, I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's kind of

advanced stuff, but it, what I would also say is develop your voice.

Mm.

That's the advice I give to authors.

It is the lesson that took me longest to learn as well, I think.

In that I grew up, I, I would read Pratchett, I'd read Douglas Adams, I'd

read PG Woodhouse, I'd read Ursula Le Guin and I tried to be these authors.

I tried to be like them, and of course I wasn't.

I'm me.

And it took me a long time to figure out that I can write

like me and just be my voice.

And the other thing is, AI's not gonna do that.

I think that the thing to develop over the next few years is be

as weird and quirky as possible.

Okay.

Facebook or Meta might steal it from you, from some piracy site, as has been

revealed in the last couple of weeks.

But they, they won't be able to reproduce it.

They're not gonna predict what weird, quirky thing you're

gonna come up with next.

So I think to thy own self be true, you know, uh, develop your voice

and make it as idiosyncratic as possible, because I think that's

the thing we're gonna treasure most.

I'm sure there will be publishers and con artists or whatever, putting

out very bland generic thrillers and romances and things like that.

And, and people will read them because The general public generally doesn't care.

Yeah.

Uh, but if you can develop something that's a bit weird and strange and

personal, deeply personal, that is you, uh, I think you're gonna be all right.

And if you develop that link.

Develop your voice and enjoy the process.

'cause it's the one thing you can control.

Me sitting down here and writing is the one thing I can control.

And if you go into it thinking, oh, if I write this, I'm gonna be rich.

I'm gonna win awards, I'm gonna be adored.

You have no control over any of that.

But what you can do is write as much as you can, develop your voice,

finish things, and put them out there.

And if you can do that without an expectation of, this time next

year will be millionaires, Rodney, then I think you'll be happy.

Yeah.

And anything that, anything good that does happen is a bonus.

And all the kickbacks.

Well, yeah.

I mean, I'm still getting rejections.

Projects still fall apart.

It's just part of the life and you have to accept that.

But the thing they can't take away from me is the fact that I can do

this every day and I have a voice and I've got something to say.

And it doesn't matter where you are.

If you're sitting down and writing for the first time.

Or you've been doing this for years.

That's the thing they can't take away from you.

Yeah, absolutely.

And Mark, that's been, that's a fantastic way to end the episode, I think.

Uh, so, uh, Mark Stay, thank you very much for being my guest this month.

Thanks, Tom.

Thanks.

And that was the wonderful Mark Stay.

Some really good advice there I think.

And I also think you should all go to his website, Markstaywrites.com because

not only are there links to his books and affiliate links too, the guy earns

double if you buy through him, clever boy.

But there's also links to his films and his podcasts.

He's currently doing a monthly podcast called The Creative Differences Podcast,

where he discusses the little things that make a big difference in people's work.

He also does mentoring and feedback services for writers,

and he's an all round good egg.

So please do check out his stuff and tell him Tom sent you.

I get no financial kickback from it.

I just want the bragging rights.

I'll put a link to his books in the podcast description for this episode.

I've also put his social media and I've linked that Craig Mazin podcast

with John August called script notes.

I dunno, which episodes discusses the central dramatic argument.

There's over 400 episodes, and you can do that research yourself.

I get the sense that you are the type of person that likes podcasts about writing.

Anyway, that's all for me.

Try and stay healthy, wear sunscreen, and keep writing until the world ends.