Having a clear, actionable purpose that acts as a real North Star can help businesses attract and retain talent, build engaged workforces and drive innovation. But what if your starting point is diverse, disparate teams with completely different agendas?

Today, host Becky Willan speaks to Cath Possamai, Talent Acquisition Director for Amazon in EMEA. Before arriving in tech, she led recruitment for the British Army as part of a struggling and much-scrutinised partnership with Capita. The two organisatons were culturally misaligned, but by co-creating a shared purpose, Cath was able to instigate a major reset. Now at Amazon, Cath’s found teams can operate like separate businesses - from Web Services to Devices to Stores - so building a unified purpose is an essential part of breaking down siloes and driving collaboration. 

In this episode, you’ll learn that focusing on incremental change -  not just big promises - and upskilling leaders to bring purpose to life in a way that keeps it front of mind for everyone - can help you unlock the cultural benefits of purpose. 

Do you want to learn how to build a purpose-driven business from Given, the consultancy that’s helped some of the world's largest organisations become purposeful? Download the Insiders’ Guide to Purpose HERE. 

This is an AI transcription - apologies for the typos.

Purposing - Cath Possamai

This week I'm joined by Cath Possamai. Talent acquisition director for Amazon in Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Cath believes in the power of purpose to unite immobilize teams. Having done this in her current role and in her previous job with the British Army, we're going to hear about both those experiences.

Through this conversation, you'll learn how to create a shared purpose with the power to unite different teams or organizations. Use that to drive positive change in your business and build the key skills and capabilities needed to be a purpose driven leader. Before I speak with Cath, let's take a quick look back at her career, which has taken her from financial services to the armed forces to one of the biggest tech companies in the world.

The British Army defined Cath Possamai’s career. She dreamt of serving since her early

And there was no way I was gonna fit. Cuz I was a girl.

Recruiting targets. Uh, the contract was losing lots of money for capita, and it was getting dragged to the press on, on an almost weekly basis with huge scrutiny from, from politicians and the National Audit Office. Actually, the nao were about to start an investigation, so it, it was in a bad place and unfortunately, I culturally, the Capita and the Army were very different organizations.

You had a real culture clash between kind of commercial culture and military culture and the intention. Of R P P. So the recruiting partnering project was that you would harness the best of both organizations in delivering recruiting. So you would have the military knowledge, the military understanding of contexts, but together with commercial expertise around process, around technology and around innovation in the recruiting space.

But quite a lot of those civilians were ex-army, and I think the entire team. Genuinely had a huge love and respect for the work of the army and the service of the Army. So that was kind of unifying factor. But culturally, there were some huge differences in the, in the two organizations.

The knowledge that the two organizations were clashing at the top drove that clash all the way down through the teams. To give an example, we had our, um, recruiting offices, which were mainly staffed by military personnel and who had a very clear view about how recruitment should be done and tended to therefore, Ignore any kind of efforts to change or differentiate or innovate that was driven by, you know, the, the Cs and even, you know, the, the language that was used.

So we would be, we talk about the greens and the blues, the greens being the military, the blues being the civilians. The language was very kind of confrontational. Oh, the, you know, The blues are saying this, oh, the greens are doing this again. It was, you know, it was a really kinda day-to-day, day-to-day, uh, adversarial kind of attitude.

And, you know, that made it very difficult for everyone, despite the fact people really cared about trying to do the right thing for candidates at every level on, on all sides of the partnership. People wanted to do the right things for candidates and wanted to do, do the right thing for the Army, but they were just really struggling with this.

Challenge and because it was so failing so badly and there was so much pressure and, and crucially externally from politicians and the top levels of both organizations, the army and capita, and the press, and there was always the nearest shiny object. Someone always had a brilliant idea that was gonna fix everything.

And so the team were being pushed constantly to chase the nearest shiny object. For a long time, it felt like a five-year-old football team. Um, because everybody was chasing the ball. Um, instead of spreading out and really attacking the problem in a, you know, in a more strategic way, and instead of getting the best of both, you know, the, the green and the best of the greens and the best of the blues, we kind of got the worst of both.

We used to joke about it being purple gas instead of a beautiful peacock. You know, green and blue together should have been a beautiful peacock, but instead we had this nasty purple gas and it meant that we had a very, very, uh, hierarchical. Approach, you know, that the kind of the worst of the, of the very strict hierarchy that the army has for good reason operations manifested itself.

So anyone who was close to the problem and on the ground would see a problem and would tell their manager and then wait for this problem to go up the chain to the leadership team who are very distant, you know, disconnected body, and then wait for the answer to come back down again before they would do anything.

And if the answer never came, then they just shrugged. Rather than feeling empowered, feeling trusted, able to solve problems in an agile way, and to get on with delivering what we all wanted to be delivering. It was a pretty broken organization, and also a lot of people who were working really hard and doing their best within their sphere of influence to deliver, but constantly being.

Criticized in the press by the politicians, by their leadership F for not delivering and what they felt was a pretty impossible situation.

And it. What point, how quickly into your sort of tenure as c e o did you realize that building a shared purpose was going to be so important to solving these challenges and, and really realizing the, the true potential of the partnership?

I

Took on the CEO job, so I, you know, I'd had the opportunity to really understand and see the problem. I was also very lucky. Timing is everything. I think that I, you know, I was asked to step into my role at the same time that there was a real new tone from the top, from both capita and the army. Capita had a new chief exec and.

He had met with the, the chief, the general staff of the Army, and they'd both said, okay, we need to draw a line under everything that's gone before. We need to recognize that this has the potential to be a great partnership. We've all made mistakes. Both organizations have made mistakes. Let's draw a line under it.

Let's move forward in a positive way. And then that there, so there are some leadership changes. Uh, I came in as chief exec on the capital side and there was also. Two new generals who came in on the Army side, and one particularly who I worked extremely closely with and effectively will be partnered.

And we have sat down and looked back at. So what made this work now with the benefit of hindsight, but we both had the same kind of fundamental values around leadership and culture and people. And we both recognized that if we wanted to fix performance, we needed to start with the culture and we needed to fix the culture.

And successive leaders on both sides of the partnership had just focused on. Performance and operational factors and had never really focused on the culture and the people, and we thought, you know, that to make large scale change happen, we needed that shared purpose and we needed to enable the teams to really unite.

Over a cause and to really articulate what the shared vision was. And as I've said, you know, throughout, even when things were going badly, no one would ever have questioned that. The teams on all sides really cared about the candidates and really cared about the army. But we really failed in, in harnessing that passion that was there into something that was articulated clearly and could really govern what we did every day.

So our job really was to kind of smooth that out, I think. That

Did you have to convince anybody internally that actually, uh, especially at a senior level, that that focus on people and culture and not purely on performance was the right way to go? I

Um, so it wasn't as, as kind of outta step as you might think to be focusing on that. And actually the way, you know, the way Capita is structured as a managing director or chief executive of that contract, it's a ridiculously overinflated title really. Um, but as an MD or as an owner, a contract owner, you have.

Enormous autonomy to deliver in the right way for your client and your contract and your people. So I didn't really need to go and ask permission to do this. I needed to make sure I had my leadership in my team on board, and I needed to make sure that my, my colleagues in the Army were on board. But beyond that, I had, uh, I had reasonable free reign to, to take the approach that I thought was the right thing to do.

Tell me a bit

And we worked with them together on. Articulating. A purpose. So, you know, it's recently straightforward. It's, and there's plenty of books written about it. And, and we hopped it. We tested all sorts of options. We used Post-Its and whiteboards. We used some capita facilitators who were, who were, who were very good and we, and we tested it.

Extensively with, with the whole team before we landed on anything. And it was actually interesting to me because I had a view on what I thought it would be. And actually, you know, we ended up on something a bit different, but it's still re you know, it really, really resonated with me and it resonated with the entire team.

Um, and the end result we got to was recruiting tomorrow's army today. And the bit that was really important in that was the tomorrow word because, Everybody really keenly felt the responsibility of what we were doing was about securing success and resilience, um, and sustainability In tomorrow's army, you know, what we, what we do today affects, affects the future.

And that really came through very, very strongly from the, the focus group. We did the sessions, the whiteboarding, and in the end, it wasn't hard, wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be to land on something that everyone could really connect with. That's really

And I think actually you, you can think about. The extent to which organizations are truly purpose driven by the extent to which their purpose actually helps them make decisions. So can you talk about some of the things that changed as a result of having that clarity about what the shared purpose was and how did that show up in big strategic decisions or sort of day-to-day decisions that were being made across the organization?

So, you know, if someone was four seconds over the, the target run time, would we really send them away for three months to work on that or would we take a bit of risk and say, actually in 14 weeks of basic training, the army's gonna make up four seconds over a, over a mile and a half run. And in thinking about entrance policy, so we, we did a whole trache of work jointly with the army around looking at every single aspect of, of the Army that had any kind of impact or influence on.

Recruiting and examining every angle as to what were the small changes. And it's a bit like Clive Wood, wood with the in England rugby, uh, and Dave Brailsford with with Sky Cycling. You know, looking at all those marginal gains everywhere that if you added them up would make a significant difference. And we did that because we needed to recruit tomorrow's army.

I also think

And so actually, I think that really speaks to the idea that a powerful purpose, Doesn't just describe sort of why an organization exists. It also helps to direct and guide exactly what you should be focused on and how you should be doing it as well. Moving on to your current role at Amazon. So we're very different environment, I'm sure.

How is talent acquisition managed at Amazon in Europe, middle East and and Africa. And what are some of the unique challenges and opportunities that you face in this role today? Talent

And then the, the biggest bit in the middle, which the bit everyone thinks of when they think of Amazon, is Amazon stores. So, you know, The online platform, the delivery service, you know, the one that started it already, talent acquisition is everything from sort of shift manager level up to exec hiring. So not frontline staffing, but uh, but everything kind of in, in the kind of middle to senior levels.

Um, when I look after emea, so you're at Middle East. Africa for, for the stores business. So we recruit, the numbers are kind of mind boggling. We recruit for hundreds of roles, you know, in tens of countries, all with their own employment laws, their own languages, their own different cultural differences.

And my team's based across probably 20 countries and speak, I mean the team, we have done a kind of word cloud of how many languages everyone speaks since it's about 50. And obviously we, you know, we, we cover multiple time zones. So it is hugely rewarding and the bit that I really love and the bit that kind of.

Hooked me when I got the phone call from Amazon when I was wondering what to do next, uh, after the Army is the challenge of, you know, uniting and leading an enormously diverse team and how, you know, creating a feeling of belonging and unity in that team despite the fact we'll probably never all be physically together in one space.

You know, and the nature of our work, you know, this kind of day to day work of, of recruiting thousands of people can drive kind of real day-to-day operational silos. So kind of making the team feel united is the, is the kind of leadership challenge that I enjoy.

I think the decision was made to actually bring two teams together, and that was sort of in part how your new role was created. Could you talk a little bit about that?

So all the partnering with sellers and vendors, all the retail, all the advertising. And the other part, which was the part that I was leading initially when I first joined, was doing everything from buy it now on the website. So the bit that delivers your parcels at wart speed. And I was really responsible just for that second part.

Um, but in November I was asked to take on the other half too, and create a single team, which made a load of sense on many, many levels because, you know, having now having the teams together that support the end-to-end customer journey. Is meaning we can identify much better, easy ways of doing things.

You know, our recruiters are less siloed. We're trying to drive out silos and we're finding ways to collaborate and be a bit more agile in and in all our kind of project management approaches around how we approach diversity, trying to reduce duplication of effort across key hiring areas, and just also, you know, being able to more easily offer our teams the ability to move around and have a greater breadth of work in supporting our internal customers.

But yeah, my experience with the Army had shown me that if you've got a situation where you are bringing two different teams, which whatever reason, they're different. If you're bringing two teams together, then I think it's even more critical to to, to nail the why. Early and it was, you know, a new beginning for two teams who'd kind of worked alongside each other, but really had very little to do with each other previously.

And it really needed to feel, and I use this, use these words deliberately with the team. You know, it needed to feel like a, it's a friendly merger, you know,

You know, perceived it as a hostile takeover and it definitely wasn't. And I really, really felt it was important that it felt like and was a friendly merger. And, you know, and I was lucky actually that I, I had, uh, originally planned anyway to have my leadership group all together quite soon after this change happened.

And I was able to use that time then to add the wider leadership group across both of the teams, um, and use that time, uh, away kind of all physically together in one place to spend some time thinking about that, that why. Can

So we, we looked at, at both of them and we started from there. And actually we were lucky in that they were. Very, very similar in tone and intent. So it didn't feel like we were working, we were starting from a completely different place, which was, which was great. And I suppose you would, you would expect that we were working in the same organization, essentially the same tasks and, and same roles.

So we then, you know, started with those two and we, we workshop with those, a group about a hundred and workshop them into what could be a new joint. Purpose, which, you know, was which paid respect to both, um, and, and could resonate with everyone. And there were some, there were some key words that we could really draw out that were really important to both teams.

So one was, you know, and I think the teams feel very keenly the responsibility of being, you know, the connectors and the gatekeepers effectively to Amazon. One of the world's. Biggest companies, you know, where there are really, really incredible career opportunities globally. Um, and so the words that were kind of coming out was around connection, definitely, um, was really, really important.

And then the other one that the responsibility everyone felt really keenly was about, particularly in our geographies and the the communities we serve, was the importance of the diversity of the candidates. That we work with. So we really felt we wanted to, to reflect that in, in what we came out with in terms of our purpose.

So, and then, and obviously the one, the, the final element was this, this, you know, what's unique, you know, what's different about this talent acquisition team in Amazon compared to any other recruiting team in any other company? And why is, why is it unique for us? And it was really that the level of the opportunity.

That we are unlocking and we are connecting, which is how we then got to the statement, which is connecting everyone with exceptional opportunities everywhere, because we felt that was the unique nature of what we do as a team because the geographical footprint is so huge, you know, the opportunities are endless almost with Amazon.

And we very specifically wanted to make sure we were talking about everyone to reflect the fact that we are trying to be as inclusive as we possibly can be when we recruit into the organization.

Doing our best to do the right thing all the time, you know? And the organization has never been afraid to fail and learn, you know, and, and we try to fail quickly and learn, you know, in pursuit of, you know, eventual excellence and because something. Aligns with our, with our customer obsession. And we have a concept that's concept in am on Amazon I really like, which is about one-way door and two-way door decisions.

And, and a two-way door decision is something that you can, a decision you can take and you can go back through the door. So it's a two-way door and we are actively encouraged. If it's a two-way door decision, don't think too much about it, get on and do it because you can always come back through the door if it's a one-way door decision.

I e you can't come back through the door, then think a little bit harder, do a bit more research before you make that, before you make that decision. And I think it's really true in areas like sustainability, like diversity, and, you know, and in terms of sustainability, Amazon's really led the charge around that.

Um, in terms of, you know, meeting the climate change pledge 10 years early and really, Working with other companies to push to try and achieve that as well. You know, we've made a huge investment in a company called Rivian, which is building electric vehicles. And actually, I was in Seattle a couple weeks ago, and those electric delivery vehicles are everywhere.

You don't see. The old-fashioned, petrol based, diesel based lorries very much in Seattle now. And, and those are coming, um, across, across the US and more broadly. And actually that investment very publicly has lost a lot of money, but we're still doing it because it's the right thing to do long term and we believe in it long term.

And then we have things like, which I don't think we publicize very well, like a career's choice program. It applies globally and is. About trading you to leave the company almost. So someone who's worked in one of the Amazon warehouses for a year has access to up to about 8,000 pounds. Um, it depends obviously, which country you're in to pursue qualifications in any career that they might want to choose.

So it may be that they want to be a nurse or an engineer or a lawyer. Um, you know, Amazon will support someone going and getting those qualifications. Even with it explicitly means that that job doesn't exist in Amazon and they will go on and leave. But we are still supporting that, which is I think quite phenomenal.

There are not many companies that would train you to leave. Uh, actually, so there's an awful lot that Amazon does to give back. I don't think we often shout about it enough actually. And. Just before I joined, I think a couple years ago AM Amazon had 14 leadership principles, which are absolutely ingrained in how we do everything.

They're all over everywhere, and it's, they govern how we select, how we hire, how we promote, how we work day-to-day. You know, they're often quoted in meetings. Um, the leadership principle, they were written years ago, I got Jeff Bezos and, and two, two more were added about two years ago, and they explicitly focus on one is strive to be Earth's best employer.

And the other is, I'm paraphrasing slightly. It's almost with great power comes great responsibility, but it is, it is about, you know, scale brings real responsibility and it's all about being sustainable and responsible. So yes, I think sometimes I'm sure we, we do get things wrong, but equally the important part for me is we are really, really trying.

To get things right and to improve things all the time and to influence others, um, in the way we do that. And we're putting a lot of money into it.

You know, within an organization it's about bringing two teams together or perhaps as part of a sort of m and a process. What's the advice that you would share having done this twice now in your career?

Of that, I would say try and do it early. Don't hesitate, you know, don't, don't wait. It, it needs to be a priority because it has such an important unifying impact if you do it right. I think it's important to, to consult broadly. You know, in both the examples I gave with, with the Army and with Amazon, I ended up doing the bulk of the work in terms of the workshopping and the ideas generation and the debate initially with a kind of extended leadership team, so kind of middle to senior management population, and then.

Sharing and testing with full teams, full employees. And I think, you know, and, and I've, I've heard different approaches. I think it did work. Could it have worked better if we consulted everybody on the actual wording around purpose statement? Possibly. I don't know. But I think, you know, it can work that way.

But definitely then testing it at the very least with absolutely everyone in the organization is, is really important. I don't think you can impose it, uh, as a leadership decision, you know, leadership management. Decided statement approach. And then I think the other one is really, really investing. I, I mentioned this earlier, but really investing in that management leadership population to really equip them to bring.

It's to life. A great purpose statement isn't enough. You know, the leaders have got to be comfortable talking about it with their teams, um, and got to keep it alive going forward. So all the kind of clever communications mechanisms that you can employ to keep it front of mind for your staff and for your teams.

And, you know, one of the things I do is. A monthly vlog with my team, which is literally, I get my iPhone and I record myself talking for four or five minutes. And it generally, and I have a rule that I might make four or five kind of topic headlines before I go, before I do it. So I know what I wanna say, but then I do it in one cut and it's unscripted.

And if I say I'm, uh, then it stays in because it needs to be authentic and, and real. And so my teams can really see what I'm thinking and, and doing. And I use that as a vehicle to try and connect again with the purpose by referring back to it when I, when I. Every communications mechanism, investing in your leadership, uh, capability, doing it early and making sure it's, you know, kind of broadly consulted on, I think would be my.

My biggest advice points.

This means you can look forward to create a sense of what's possible in the future when it comes to delivering on your purpose. It's the marginal gains, the smaller incremental choices that really make the difference. The big stuff shows everyone you're serious about purpose, but it's the hundreds of everyday choices, like not having a hard cutoff on target time for getting into the army, that over time drives real impact.

Invest in upskilling your leaders so that they can clearly and confidently bring your purpose to life. Find clever ways to get your purpose on the agenda and help people join the dots between their day-to-day roles and the bigger mission. Making it authentic makes it real. If you'd like more practical advice on building a purpose-driven business with brilliant insights from people like Cath, download our Insiders Guide to Purpose at givenagency.com/insiders guide.

Purposing is produced by Fascinate Productions