Shownotes
Do you consider yourself courageous?
I think most men would say "yes", but what about when it comes to your emotions?
Dr. Ron Johnson is an author and psychologist focused on helping men understand how they feel, value how they feel, and communicate how they feel.
And that's the reason for his new book 'Balls: Men Finding Courage With Words, Women, Work, and Wine ("wine" is a stand-in for addiction, because why ruin a good bit of alliteration?).
In this episode of The Akkeri Podcast, Ron shares his thoughts on the anxiety common among men, the important role of sadness, and how the courage to be vulnerable with our emotions is crucial to personal growth and success.
Find Dr. Ron Johnson Here:
His Practice: https://midlandspsychological.com/
His Blog: https://midlandspsychological.com/blog
His Books:
'What's Your Temperament: Identifying and Enhancing Your Personality Strengths'
Find The Akkeri Here:
Transcripts
00;00;01;14 - 00;00;25;03
Ron
Most men are very good at thinking and doing, or perhaps thinking or doing. Very few men are good at feeling. This anxiety is almost universal among men, and it does have to do largely with how can I be who I am and engage the world? If I'm going to deal with women, I have to get fluent with words.
00;00;25;06 - 00;00;32;06
Ron
If I don't do that, I will not succeed. I will be a perfect husband, but I will not be intimate with that woman.
00;00;32;09 - 00;00;56;06
Matt
You are listening to the Akkeri podcast, a show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of the Akkeri. In this episode, I talked with psychologist and author Doctor Ron Johnson. Our conversation centers around several topics from his new book entitled Balls Men Finding Courage with words, women, work, and wine.
00;00;56;08 - 00;01;04;13
Matt
Ron is someone that I've learned a lot from over the years, so I hope this conversation and his work will be valuable to you as well.
00;01;04;15 - 00;01;12;05
Matt
I appreciate you taking the time to do this. What got you into psychology? What got you into to men's work? Just basically as a bit of an introduction.
00;01;12;07 - 00;01;37;03
Ron
So, what got me into seeing men was this. I started practice 55 years ago, and most of the people I was with seeing at the time were, women. And most of those women were talking about the men in their lives, usually complaining. And so, I sort of agreed with them that, yes, this guy's, you know, yeah, you're responsible or whatever he is.
00;01;37;05 - 00;01;52;00
Ron
And then I thought I ought to meet these guys. So I started to meet these guys, and the guys that I met were not the guys that I'd been hearing about. So it's like, wait a minute. You know, Joe seems like, pretty good talent. Seems intelligent. Yeah, he drinks a little bit, but, you know, he's he's not an alcoholic.
00;01;52;00 - 00;02;20;05
Ron
And and, so that moved me away from seeing women and, towards seeing men. But you have to know, this was, in, you know, early, 70s and then 80s. and so I started seeing men that put a, Yellow Pages ad when we had yellow pages. Ron Johnson, psychologist, practice limited to men.
00;02;20;08 - 00;02;48;15
Ron
Now, this is like:00;02;48;15 - 00;03;07;09
Ron
It was, you know, men's retreats where they would do drumming and a variety of other kinds of things, and which was fine, but it really didn't treat the man in the street. So what I, did early in my life and continue to do is try to understand what does it mean to be a man? What is this masculinity thing?
00;03;07;13 - 00;03;11;10
Ron
What is cultural? What is psychological? What might even be spiritual?
00;03;11;13 - 00;03;11;23
Matt
Right.
00;03;11;29 - 00;03;23;10
Ron
And so my interest was continued, in that. And that's not all I do, but that remains a very important, factor. So that's how I got into it. And that's how it stayed with it.
00;03;23;12 - 00;03;46;05
Matt
Right. So the the main point of the conversation that I wanted to get into, obviously, is that the book that you are finished now and releasing soon, entitled balls can you give me an idea of what kind of spurred the writing of that book from that beginning? Because obviously you started working with men in the 70s. You're releasing balls now, and you've written books over the past several years.
00;03;46;05 - 00;03;54;22
Matt
But correct me if I'm wrong, nothing has come out just yet that you've written. That is, basically what balls is all about.
00;03;54;25 - 00;04;20;17
Ron
Not we have not. yeah. Let me just speak about the outrageous title. You know, why would anybody dare to say this? This just seems crude. but, it balls, as I, conceive of it, is a man being honest with himself and then honest with other people. the difficulties that men have, I referred to, with a letter, and they are anger.
00;04;20;17 - 00;04;46;14
Ron
They are avoidance. and they are addiction, anger avoidance and addiction. So a man will get angry too easily, or he will avoid, having conversations, or he will find some go to, which is an addiction. All of that underlines, what I've come to see, the basic anxiety that most men have, which is essentially who am I, what am I, why am I going to do this?
00;04;46;14 - 00;05;11;00
Ron
And how am I going to face the responsibilities of life? That's been my orientation and developing over a number of years. in fact, I must say, even recently, in the recent years, I have seen that this anxiety is almost universal among men. And it does have to do largely with how can I be who I am and engage the world?
00;05;11;02 - 00;05;31;08
Ron
if I'm just who I am, then that's, narcissistic. If I'm just engaging the world, then I'm going to placate the world or avoid the world. But how can I find this interface between who I am and what the world is now? The world for me, of course, is the Western world. Primarily. It might be very much different in Africa or Latin, different context.
00;05;31;08 - 00;05;32;08
Matt
Sure.
00;05;32;11 - 00;05;52;01
Ron
Sure could be. So the problems that I saw with men, continue to be the problems that I see with men. very often I feel I'm reminded of a man that I saw recently and I said, well, men have these four problems. And he said, I got all of them. So very often men will look at that.
00;05;52;03 - 00;06;17;00
Ron
But this is very important here because I don't look for what's wrong with people. Right. I look for what's right with people and. Yes, man, I might have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder or whatever, but that's not what a man really is. and that's what psychology unfortunate lately, having been adapted to psychiatry is now about diagnosing somebody.
00;06;17;02 - 00;06;35;15
Ron
I don't do that. I do it for insurance purposes or, if necessary. But that's not how I look at people. That's not how we look at men. And so, for instance, I used to have women and still occasionally women come in and say, well, my my husband is, A.D.D. and, and, he's depressed and he's anxious and, you know, he sits and he said all kinds.
00;06;35;18 - 00;07;03;11
Ron
Maybe he's bipolar disorder. And I think, okay, maybe. And I think, no, this guy is trying to find out who he is. He doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know how to put who he is into words. And that's one of the subtitles of this book. men dealing with words. Well, when we look at words, men can be very good at words, but not very good at feeling based words, particularly emotional words.
00;07;03;18 - 00;07;30;24
Ron
That's the dominant anger that men have because they're good at being happy. And they're good at being angry, but the dreadful at being afraid, which is very, very important. And they're really awful at being sad. sadness is without a doubt the most important emotion that we have. And to teach men how to be sad, to help them, how to be sad is a very challenging activity.
00;07;30;27 - 00;07;59;22
Ron
Well, I was, Well, I frequently find is this. You can't feel sad and anxious at the same time. And men are so familiar with feeling this inner anxiety fear that when they begin to feel sad, they might start to cry in my office. Their anxiety disappears. That is a remarkable phenomenon that happens, I don't think universally with men, with with women as well.
00;07;59;25 - 00;08;27;09
Ron
So what I'm trying to do is help men grasp the centrality of sadness and the danger of fear. If I'm afraid, I, as a man, will probably, go to avoidance or addiction or anger. But if I can just allow myself to be afraid to be anxious and then look at what is this about this anxiety is about, I am afraid I'm going to lose something.
00;08;27;15 - 00;08;50;09
Ron
So I call that anticipatory loss. If I look at, I might lose something which is really very interesting. If I if I talk to a man, what would it be like if you lost your wife or your job or your or your child? And that man can be in front of me and actually feeling sorrow. And this is anticipatory sorrow.
00;08;50;12 - 00;09;27;04
Ron
Why does he feel anticipatory sadness? Because he loves his job, his wife, his children, his house. And so to teach a man that sadness is central in life. It's not to say this is depression or despairing. To teach a man sadness is central. Is whatever you love, person, place, thing, idea, you most certainly will lose it. You might have it for minutes, you might have it for decades, but you will lose it.
00;09;27;06 - 00;09;43;19
Matt
If I could just jump in for a second. You mentioned that you've seen anxiety as the biggest challenge or just huge challenge. Okay, so if that's the biggest challenge is finding and putting words to those feelings, the main solution for that.
00;09;43;21 - 00;09;50;28
Ron
The main solution for that is to feel sad. That doesn't seem to make any sense when I first say that to men.
00;09;51;05 - 00;09;51;23
Matt
Right.
00;09;51;26 - 00;10;21;14
Ron
But if you look at anxiety, what is anxiety? I am afraid that I'm going to lose something. Well, what does that mean? That means I love this something. Again, it could be person, place, singer idea. I'm afraid I'm going to lose this thing that I love. So anxiety is a love problem. I love something that I might lose and if I can help you realize you love your child, you really love your child.
00;10;21;17 - 00;10;39;10
Ron
And if I lost my child, I would be overwhelmed with sorrow. And what would I try to do with men then and say, let's just go there. Oh, I don't want to go there. I can't even think about that. No, of course you can't go there. Of course you don't want to think. You don't want to think about losing a child or or losing a house or something.
00;10;39;13 - 00;11;06;08
Ron
When men get familiar with that, then they realize, oh, I will lose whatever I have, I will die. I will lose this idea. This idea won't work out. This job won't work out perfectly. And then I'm no longer afraid. Because what has happened? I have instilled hope inside of me. Now, isn't that odd? Hope it's not. I will get what I want.
00;11;06;10 - 00;11;16;18
Ron
Hope is I will be able to cope with what I will have in the future. I will have something. I will enjoy it. I will lose this something. I will be sad right?
00;11;16;18 - 00;11;33;25
Matt
So obviously the you mentioned in the book that there's a lot of work that needs to be done between the anxiety and getting to that place that you've just described, where you can put words to it, where you can feel it, where you can move through it, what? Yes. What do you see is the biggest challenge to getting to that point?
00;11;33;25 - 00;11;52;24
Matt
Because like personally for me and you know, obviously you're my psychologist. We've worked through this over the years. One of my biggest challenges was seeing the importance of this type of work, because it wasn't that it wasn't just that I didn't want to do it at first, or that I felt like I didn't need it, but I don't think I valued it.
00;11;52;27 - 00;12;23;01
Matt
And that is common. I see that in a lot of guys that I speak with. It's it's almost like they are kind of side handed, give this value. It's like, oh yes, that's that's important. But maybe I don't need it. I don't need it right now. And then when we go through big challenges in life and feel a lot of undesirable feelings, that's when we wonder maybe if this is the time to to do this type of work, what is it that what is the work in between?
00;12;23;01 - 00;12;30;16
Matt
How do you get to that place where you're able to start looking at learning the words for this, feeling these things and finding them in.
00;12;30;19 - 00;12;51;13
Ron
A couple of things? Words are very important. There are three elements in life. Roughly, they are thinking, feeling, and doing. Most men are very good at thinking and doing, or perhaps thinking or doing. Very few men are good at feeling. A lot of people are very good at feeling, but they don't do anything, or they don't think clearly.
00;12;51;13 - 00;13;16;26
Ron
So they're great with feelings, but they never achieve anything, right? So it's not like feeling is more important. But what I find with men is this I will see, buddy and buddy is, let's say 40 years old, but he's very bright, so he is sort of intellectually 60. Furthermore, he's achieved a lot. He, I see somebody who is just short of 40 and needs a millionaire and has done very well.
00;13;17;02 - 00;13;41;01
Ron
What about the feeling part? The feeling part of buddy is 12. so this this buddy is 40 years old physically, a 50 or 60 years old intellectually and achievement wise, and a 12 year old emotionally. So what happens with this 12 year old? Every once in a while, this 12 year old starts screaming at him and, I walk my way.
00;13;41;01 - 00;14;03;00
Ron
I don't know how to do this. I don't I don't like this woman that I'm with. I don't like this job. And so I'm just going to quit day or whatever I'm going to do. So in a nutshell, it's helping men mature in how they feel, what they feel, valuing how they feel, and cautiously and carefully and selectively expressing how they feel.
00;14;03;06 - 00;14;19;18
Matt
Right. I wonder if there is a way to speed up the maybe education process to help them understand the value of this type of work, because it feels like you have to go through something incredibly difficult before you're able to write the.
00;14;19;20 - 00;14;35;18
Ron
Yeah, well, let's say if you're 40 years old and you're a millionaire and you're a person of good character and you don't have a grasp of feelings, that means you have to feel like a 12 year old or maybe a six year old, right? Who wants to feel like that? No, I don't want to feel like a six year old.
00;14;35;18 - 00;14;53;15
Ron
I want to feel like the person I am. I've achieved this. I made money and people like me, I'm doing well. And if I'm going to feel like a 12 year old or a six year old, I want to feel pretty inferior. So it's very hard for men. Plus, add to the thing that you asked a moment ago, how do I put that into words?
00;14;53;19 - 00;15;11;17
Ron
Oh boy, that's a real problem. So, for instance, I almost universally have men say to me, I don't want to live. And I sometimes have to help them say that because that's all I know. Oh, I don't want to die or I really don't want to kill myself. I just don't want to live like that because life sucks, right?
00;15;11;19 - 00;15;30;19
Ron
You know, I'm a happiness marriage and a happiness job. My kids are alcoholic or whatever. It's something that everything's wrong. I don't want to live or very often, as men get older, I have all these physical anomalies and I don't want to live. Not what man is going to say. I don't want to live to anybody. It's going to sound like I'm suicidal.
00;15;30;21 - 00;15;52;04
Ron
I have felt I don't want to live. Every man that I see has felt, I don't want to live. What's the operative word? Feel? But when I say how I feel, my words are always approximate. And I would go as far as to say when I say how I feel. I do not succeed in that endeavor. I never actually succeed in saying how I feel.
00;15;52;07 - 00;15;58;21
Ron
Who are the people who are good at putting, feelings into words? Poets and musicians?
00;15;58;24 - 00;15;59;15
Matt
Sure.
00;15;59;17 - 00;16;06;22
Ron
Because we have poetic license. We have musical license, we have artistic license, but we don't have license with words.
00;16;06;24 - 00;16;09;05
Matt
So what gives men that license?
00;16;09;08 - 00;16;16;15
Ron
Gives men that license. They men have license in expressing their feelings when they swear. Okay.
00;16;16;18 - 00;16;19;10
Matt
Well, that's primarily that's primarily anger.
00;16;19;12 - 00;16;44;15
Ron
That's primarily anger. Or it could be it could be joy. I mean, I don't know if I can, you know, abbreviate what I might say here, but I can say she's beautiful or she's effing beautiful, right. What's the difference there? Okay. Differences. I put emotion to it. And so men are best when they swear and it's emotional. It's emotional.
00;16;44;19 - 00;16;51;11
Ron
Why is the F-word so frequent these days? Because it's the emotion that people are putting to it.
00;16;51;14 - 00;16;58;16
Matt
Okay. So it's the it's putting your emotions to words. But that's also like a cultural thing as well, because.
00;16;58;16 - 00;17;02;00
Ron
That's indeed that's a, that's a cultural thing.
00;17;02;02 - 00;17;04;02
Matt
Like swearing, like to use foul language.
00;17;04;09 - 00;17;22;05
Ron
It's swear. I had somebody come to me not long ago. He's a pastor's son. And he said, well, I wasn't sure that I wanted to see you because I know that you were Christian, and, because I just, you know, I'm. Well, I have some words, and, I said, what do you mean, swearing? well, yeah.
00;17;22;05 - 00;17;24;24
Ron
I said, well, he's for. Well, what are you talking about? No I didn't.
00;17;24;24 - 00;17;26;29
Matt
Yes yes yes you did.
00;17;27;01 - 00;17;49;29
Ron
You did. Yeah. He he called the Pharisees. You you, painted gravestones. You you group of snakes. That's swearing. And I said, you want me to put those into contemporary English hyphenated words? I think you can do that for yourself. But that's not the only way that men express their feelings and express their feelings in their thoughts, in their philosophy, and in what they do.
00;17;50;02 - 00;18;11;26
Ron
So men are much better at expressing their feelings in thinking and particularly in doing. Once in a while I see tradesmen, who are brilliant with their hands. And if I want to know how he feels, I need to watch him move these bricks. or, swing that hammer or use that saw. And I will see how he feels.
00;18;11;28 - 00;18;36;12
Ron
And it's all about, feeling. But it is not words, right? We did a new kitchen project here, and the guy who did the flooring came in and was very interested. It did wonderfully on the floor. but he came in and he he saw the butcher block, countertop, and he put his hand on the butcher block countertop and just touched it.
00;18;36;14 - 00;18;57;06
Ron
Right. He was feeling he was he's a kinesthetic guy. He was physical. He was feeling. But then he said this is wonderful. No. did he say this really makes me feel good? No, because he's a typical man. He doesn't know how to put those words. That's related to words. That's the test. That's the first subtitle of the book.
00;18;57;06 - 00;18;59;23
Ron
Balls, right? Words.
00;18;59;26 - 00;19;12;20
Matt
Words. Yeah. So you mentioned, like, the essential ingredient in life I'm quoting you now is to be true to oneself and then to communicate oneself. Having balls means having this kind of courage. So that's honesty.
00;19;12;23 - 00;19;34;22
Ron
Yes. That's honesty. Would you say if I'm honest and I and I feel life sucks and I don't want to live, who am I going to say that to? Who's going to actually hear that? Right? Dare I say it? Because it sounds like I don't like my children, I but it sounds awful. But when I say how I feel, it's always approximate.
00;19;34;22 - 00;19;48;06
Ron
I can get better and better and better at it. Maybe I'll even write some poetry. Maybe I'll write music. Maybe I'll. I'll do something that helps me express feelings.
00;19;48;09 - 00;19;49;11
Matt
Right?
00;19;49;13 - 00;20;06;19
Ron
And if I do that with another man, and if he's not familiar with feelings, he's going to say, well, I think you ought to just, you know, divorce a woman. Are you out to quit your job? You should go here and go there. So what's his friend doing? Well, he's being a friend. He wants to help him and fix him.
00;20;06;22 - 00;20;09;27
Ron
Right? He doesn't need to be helping fix. He needs to be heard.
00;20;09;29 - 00;20;12;17
Matt
Right? He's. He's jumping to doing because he did.
00;20;12;20 - 00;20;34;05
Ron
Something to doing. Right. Exactly. And doing is fine. If it's just about feelings, it's just psychobabble. It's not worth your time. You ultimately have to make changes in your life. Maybe you should get divorced. Maybe you should express yourself better so you don't have to get divorced. but it has to start with you. Has to put your feelings into words and get better and better at it.
00;20;34;10 - 00;20;46;00
Matt
Right? So in my mind, that goes hand in hand with vulnerability. That is kind of what I've been talking about a fair bit is that men need to understand that vulnerability is not really weakness. It's it can be a strength.
00;20;46;02 - 00;20;48;28
Ron
Well said, well said I agree entirely.
00;20;49;05 - 00;21;10;20
Matt
s,:00;21;10;20 - 00;21;32;15
Matt
But, I just find that there's there's so many challenges to getting men to understand the importance of this. I well, it's it's frustrating. What is it? What is it that you do in your practice that helps men to, you know, even come back to see you? Is it that they begin to see change? Like, is there physiological changes that they experience?
00;21;32;17 - 00;21;38;21
Matt
What is it that you see that brings men back to this type of work, not just to you, but to this type of work?
00;21;38;23 - 00;22;01;18
Ron
they do become familiar with it and they become, less embarrassed by saying something that's, imperfect. I, I try to help men say, this is how you express your feelings. You say, ABC and then the person that's listening to you doesn't get it. And you say this, you say, I'm sorry, I'm not communicating. You don't say you're not listening to me.
00;22;01;18 - 00;22;23;12
Ron
That's not what I said. Don't do that. You don't get angry. You don't have what you just say. I'm sorry. I'm not going. Let me try again. And they become familiar with, the trial and error that's so important in life. And if men can do trial and error with words, then. Then they're moving towards being able to be trial and error with words that reflect feelings.
00;22;23;14 - 00;22;44;28
Ron
Men are good at trial and error. When you learn how to swing a hammer, when you learn how to write a an essay, when you think about trial and error with this whole business of expressing my feelings is painful. So if I'm going to speak my feelings and I, I feel like and I sound like a six year old instead of a successful 40 year old, that is difficult.
00;22;45;00 - 00;23;08;13
Ron
And and that's the vulnerability that you're talking about. So you get familiar with it. Yes, sir. In and for instance, how is the expression my bad. How did that actually I know people that are actually offended by that expression. But my bad is distinctly a male expression. You hear it on the athletic field. My bad. Hear it in the basketball court.
00;23;08;13 - 00;23;26;22
Ron
My bad. I try to help men use that expression when they're talking about what in my bad here. My bad. let me try this again. Let me try this again. What does it mean to do that? It means here I'm building my self-esteem around the words and the emotions that I hit. My self-esteem might be very good around, but I think.
00;23;26;22 - 00;23;40;01
Ron
And what I do. But if my self-esteem is not developed, if I'm not mature in the emotion, when I start to speak emotion, I'm going to feel childish and I'm going to be embarrassed. So the more I do it, the better I get at it.
00;23;40;03 - 00;24;03;06
Matt
Okay, so it's, practice. Obviously it's accepting the fact that you're going to feel a little bit uninsured, a little bit of uncertainty, a little bit of discomfort to. Can you talk to me more like the subtitle of balls is, How Men Find Courage with words. Women work in wine. Obviously, finding courage with women is a big challenge for the majority of men.
00;24;03;08 - 00;24;17;02
Matt
We would probably say that we just don't always understand them. We don't. We think differently. Can you speak a little bit to that, what you've seen specifically in your practice, what you talk about in your book, how is that process different from men finding courage with words?
00;24;17;05 - 00;24;42;20
Ron
Yes. Well, of course, a good deal of finding courage with women has to do with words, which means that I need to realize that women and men speak quite differently. It has to do with a brain function. There's an element in the brain called the corpus callosum, which connects the right brain to the left brain. The right brain, loosely speaking, is an emotional part of the brain, and it's probably the part of the brain that we have a sense of self.
00;24;42;26 - 00;25;03;03
Ron
The left brain is rational, factual, and verbal. Well, we know this for one reason, because if I have a left brain stroke and I can't speak, I will be able to swear. No, why is that not? My former pastor called me up and he said, my mother is in the hospital and she's swearing she has never sworn in her life while she's swearing.
00;25;03;06 - 00;25;26;09
Ron
And I said, Brian, she's swearing because she is trying to speak and she doesn't have any words swearing. It's not words. A swearing is emotional. It's vocal, but it's not verbal. So if I'm going to get better at this, I have to realize that women are much better at expressing how they feel. Because for one thing, they've done it all our lives.
00;25;26;12 - 00;25;50;03
Ron
you and I, as men, went through, junior high in high school with competition, which was intellectual or athletic, or academic in some way. We didn't go through those years competing with, what you wore, how you felt, what girlfriend you had, and the feelings of hurt. you didn't use the word hurt, at all.
00;25;50;07 - 00;26;14;20
Ron
But women have familias already with emotional words. That's part of it is social. Part of it is neurological. The brain is different. For instance, women can talk and listen at the same time, which we men most certainly can't do as we speak here you speak or I speak, and if you interrupt me, I stop and you speak. Women don't do that.
00;26;14;22 - 00;26;32;26
Ron
Women have this incredible capacity to talk and listen at the same time. We're listening to women talking, and nobody's listening to each other. And they could say, yes, we are. We're just talking at the same time. It's much more efficient. So if I'm going to talk to a woman and I say, I want to tell you how I feel, and I say, for instance, I think I want to quit my job.
00;26;32;29 - 00;26;41;13
Ron
She is most likely going to immediately say, well, you can't do that. That's hurt because we shouldn't do that. How are we going to pay for that? Whoa.
00;26;41;15 - 00;26;42;29
Matt
Whoa, right.
00;26;43;02 - 00;27;03;28
Ron
Please just listen to me. I feel that's the word. Like I'm going to quit my job. So talking to a woman, a woman is so familiar with coming right back with how she feels or what she thinks that that makes talking to women particularly difficult. If I'm going to deal with women, I have to get fluent with words.
00;27;04;04 - 00;27;16;01
Ron
I have to get better. There's no way if I don't do that, I will not succeed. I will be a perfect husband, the perfect father, the perfect worker. But I will not be intimate with that woman.
00;27;16;04 - 00;27;37;09
Matt
This another quote directly from your book, having balls has to do with being honest, forthright and clear in his actions, which can only happen when a man is ever deeper in his self understanding. So it's not just a practice of like extending your vocabulary, learning how to to name what it is that you're feeling. But it's also a practice of getting to know yourself.
00;27;37;09 - 00;27;52;20
Matt
So you go away. You spend time alone like you're journaling your you're reading, you're crying. You know what I mean? You're experiencing what it is that you're feeling and trying to not just expand your vocabulary, but come to a deeper understanding of yourself. Is that correct?
00;27;52;22 - 00;28;13;27
Ron
Exactly. And what are you coming to? A deeper understanding? a whole bunch of love. You love people. You love things, you love ideas, you love your work or you want to love your work. I and most importantly, intrinsically, you love yourself. Now, a lot of men say, well, I don't love myself. And I say, let me try to correct that.
00;28;14;00 - 00;28;34;24
Ron
You don't like yourself. You don't like what you're doing, you're overweight. or you're you're not successful at your work or something. But loving yourself is natural. Jesus. When he gave the so-called great commandment, he did not say, you need to love yourself. He said, you need to love God and others all the way. You already love yourself, loving yourself.
00;28;34;24 - 00;28;59;13
Ron
It's natural. It doesn't always look like that. So if I'm, expressing my feelings, I'm always expressing what I love, what I have loved, what I hope to love or what I have lost. When I get familiar with that, then it's like my my words are inaccurate here, but the feelings are not. The feelings are perfect. The feelings are real, and they're always based on love.
00;28;59;19 - 00;29;18;17
Ron
And that love can be for a person, or it can be for an idea. For instance, I love the ideas behind this book balls. I love the idea. I really love it. I, I hope it can be of value to other men, but I'm loving something that's abstract. But it's very important to me. It's not just men are important.
00;29;18;17 - 00;29;41;20
Ron
What's important is being able to somewhat adequately express that and then maybe assist, men with their understanding themselves. So if I understand myself, I need to understand how I feel and then slowly get better at putting those feelings into words. Yes. It's understanding. Then a beautiful thing happens. If I understand how I feel, I will understand how you feel.
00;29;41;26 - 00;30;03;02
Ron
And that, of course, is what's really important with women. Women will say, well, you never listen to me. Well, I don't listen to you because I'm hearing feeling from you and I don't know how to do that. So if I first express my feelings and get better at that, then I can hear your feelings. And then we're ready to rock and roll.
00;30;03;04 - 00;30;12;09
Matt
so, yeah. So I, I guess a major benefit of this type of work is the deepening of not just your relationship with yourself, but your relationship with everybody around you, not.
00;30;12;09 - 00;30;17;28
Ron
Just with everybody. Women, children, friends. Exactly. And of course, work.
00;30;18;00 - 00;30;42;04
Matt
Talk to me for a second about practical ways that that men can do this. Like, personally, I've found conversations with others who are, well, who value this type of personal development work. I've had a couple of friends over the years that, have seen the importance of it, but journaling and just, yes, being alone, right? Putting my thoughts on paper so that they're more concrete, that I can get specific.
00;30;42;06 - 00;30;59;24
Matt
And then that really has helped me with that vocabulary because, like, I can focus exactly on what it is that I am feeling and kind of figure and filter that out through the writing on paper. And then the process of that, obviously, like it helps to slow things down. But what have you seen has has worked.
00;30;59;27 - 00;31;30;03
Ron
you, you speak very, very well about that. If I'm journaling, that is functionally poetic. what is the difference between poetry and prose? Emotion. That's the only difference. And much prose is emotional, but poetry is particularly emotional. So if I'm writing journaling, this is an emotional time, so that's very important. secondly, I need to realize and get more fluent that I'm really enjoying what I'm doing here.
00;31;30;03 - 00;31;54;14
Ron
I'm really enjoying swinging the hammer. I enjoy reading this book. I enjoy being alone. I enjoy, hiking. so if I, if I become more familiar with what I love that I physically do, I can become more familiar with, putting this, kind of love into words that I very often have to start with, man. Well, I just don't know how to put this into words.
00;31;54;14 - 00;32;12;06
Ron
I said, how about this? How about you go back to your work and just see what you really enjoy? How about you go back to your house and see what you really enjoy? Where's your favorite place? That my favorite place in life is right here in my office, looking out my window and at this point looking on a screen.
00;32;12;06 - 00;32;32;09
Ron
Or I could be looking at another patient. This is my favorite place. some people favorite places. Their cabin, some people's favorite place is is, somebody's favorite place I talked to yesterday is Yellowstone Park. He's been there ten times, and he can't wait to go back again. That's a love phenomenon. I love Yellowstone Park. I love my office.
00;32;32;09 - 00;32;34;21
Ron
Somebody else loves the kitchen.
00;32;34;24 - 00;32;41;24
Matt
Right. So it probably be fair to say that starting with, finding and figuring out what it is that you love. Yes. Thinking about that.
00;32;41;28 - 00;32;58;25
Ron
Yes. Thinking about that and then adding to that. And then, of course, women are going to be the best people who listen to this. But that's a challenge, because if I'm going to say how I feel and she's going to treat me like another woman, she's going to interrupt me. But she in her mind, she's not interrupting. She's adding.
00;32;59;00 - 00;33;14;01
Ron
But I need to say now, my dear, thank you for trying to help me here, but, this is difficult for me, so I need some space here. Well, I'm just trying to help you. And you can say yes, I know you're trying to help me, but this is actually not helping me. I get confused, I forget my name here.
00;33;14;05 - 00;33;35;12
Ron
What? I'm trying to say, how I feel. So give me some liberty. And that can be the same with men. If you have 1 or 2 men more than most men have. Most men have none, right? None. They have friends that at work they have friends that they drink with. They have friends. So they go to church with, but they don't have friends with whom they have intimate conversation.
00;33;35;15 - 00;33;45;16
Matt
Right? As one of the most common things I've seen with men is that they do things together. Yes, but they don't talk about things together, at least not to any depth.
00;33;45;19 - 00;34;04;00
Ron
We call it triangulation. I have this thing that I do, I'm swinging the hammer, or I'm going to church, or I'm doing a Bible study or whatever I'm doing. and that's how we meet. But we don't just meet. I know I face to face, this is who I am, this one. I feel this is what's valuable. This is what I love.
00;34;04;03 - 00;34;18;18
Matt
Right? Something you said a moment ago reminded me of another point that you made in the book. I mean, obviously there's a time and place for this type of conversation for this type of practice. Can you speak a little bit to that? Because, yeah, I mean, some of that's obvious, but some of it not so much.
00;34;18;21 - 00;34;37;21
Ron
Yes. time and place and person. that's why I say you have to know how you feel and selectively express how you feel. That means you don't say how you feel to most people. You say how you feel, see how it goes. If it gets better, you say more how you feel. That hopefully would be a woman.
00;34;37;23 - 00;34;56;06
Ron
or a close man. maybe somebody older, maybe somebody younger, but somebody that has that. So, that's that's a tough one because most people don't know how they feel, and most men don't know how to hear how anybody else feels. So it's going to take some practice to get there.
00;34;56;08 - 00;34;57;15
Matt
Trial and error.
00;34;57;18 - 00;35;12;21
Ron
trial and error. Trial and error. And if the error is, I feel like a four year old or a six year old or a 12 year old, I'm going to be embarrassed. you have to work yourself through that. This is painful.
00;35;12;24 - 00;35;27;14
Matt
Can you speak just for a few minutes about the benefits that you see to this type of trial and error? Because obviously, like, what is it that's on the other side? What is it that I'm going to get out of this work? It has to be valuable. It has to, you know, work for these guys.
00;35;27;17 - 00;35;57;13
Ron
It's, meaningful, it's creative and it's productive. some people are more creative than they are productive. Some people aren't productive than creative. And in the long run, it's not just about me. that's narcissism. It has to start with me. And then when I get solid with, this whole feeling thing and I'm comfortable with it and I'm better at it, then I'm serving the world in some way or another, and that's what really meaning that's where meaning actually comes into life.
00;35;57;13 - 00;36;18;26
Ron
This is really important for me now. And so if my self-esteem is is wrapped around what I do and what I think and fear, add to that. It's also wrapped around what I feel. Then I feel more solid with myself and I can begin to forget about myself. Then it's not just about me, it's about what can I do in the world.
00;36;18;28 - 00;36;37;16
Matt
So do you find that a lot of men get stuck in it being more about them? Yes. That they learn something, you know, from from childhood or teenage years. That just works like a pattern of, of being, of, of living that makes them, you know, successful in the various areas of life that, you know, make them feel like a man.
00;36;37;16 - 00;36;47;12
Matt
s,:00;36;47;12 - 00;37;19;16
Ron
Exactly. If their self-esteem is around what they have, done and what they think both valuable but not around what they feel those feelings will generate. First, to fear event to anger, then to avoidance, then to addiction in some way or another. So when I see men with one of those four difficulties, I realize that the phenomenon here is you don't know how you feel, you don't know how to value how I feel, and you don't know that your feelings are always based on love.
00;37;19;18 - 00;37;39;28
Matt
Thank you for listening. I hope you found some value in this episode. If you have, be sure to share the podcast with a friend and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the Akkeri on socials at the akkeri and on the web at theAkkeri.com. You can find Ron, his blog and his books on his website at MidlandsPsychological.com.
00;37;40;00 - 00;37;48;21
Matt
When the new book balls is released, it will also be on the website as well as Amazon.com, and you can find all the links I've mentioned in the show notes for this episode.
