Welcome back to Lending Leadership: The Mortgage Pros, where we dive deep into the strategies, challenges, and leadership philosophies shaping the mortgage industry today.

In this episode, we unpack an intriguing statistic: 84% of $20 million producers are open to recruiting conversations, but only if an executive is involved. We dig into what this means for mortgage recruiting, how leadership at every level impacts the process, and why top producers are prioritizing conversations with executives over recruiters.

While we don’t have a special guest this week, you’ll hear from the full Lending Leadership team: Tom Mills, Robert Fillyaw, and Dave Holland. We share our firsthand experiences, insights from recent mastermind groups, and practical advice for branch managers, leaders, and anyone looking to build a high-performing mortgage team.

Here’s a breakdown of what we covered:

1. The changing landscape of recruiting in the mortgage industry and why today's top producers want conversations with executives, not recruiters.
2. What motivates loan officers to change companies: from compensation, leadership, and company stability to support systems and technology.
3. How leadership at the branch and company level influences recruiting, retention, and overall team culture.
4. Building strategic and meaningful relationships in recruiting, with real-world tactics and long-term nurturing.
5. What makes a great loan officer and branch manager, and why the right hire isn’t just about production but about values and team fit.

Key takeaways:

1. Leadership Matters More Than Ever: Top producers want to engage directly with high-level executives because they value leadership stability and alignment. The days of relying solely on recruiters are fading—executive involvement is a sign of credibility and long-term commitment.
2. Recruiting is a Relationship Game: Effective recruiting isn’t about cold calls or opportunistic pitches. It’s about building relationships, offering value over time, and being the trusted industry professional people turn to when change happens.
3. What Attracts Talent in 2024: Compensation and incentives matter, but so do technology, marketing support, operational efficiency, and strong leadership. Loan officers want to know the company is forward-thinking and ready for the future, especially with the rise of AI and automation.
4. Branch Managers Must Build Their Own Leadership Brand: It’s not just about what the company offers. Branch managers need to create a value proposition, align with the right people, and be someone worth working for. Leadership stories, proven development, and servant leadership are key.
5. Be Strategic and Selective With Recruiting: Not every high producer is a good fit. Being clear about your values and target avatar prevents costly mis-hires. The best hires are sometimes the ones you don’t make—and a strong team is built around ethics, growth mindset, and collaboration.

We hope you found something of value in today’s discussion. If you’re a branch manager looking to grow your team and wondering what to evaluate first, drop us a line—we’d love to hear from you. Be sure to subscribe and smash that review button; your feedback keeps Lending Leadership moving forward!

Robert, Tom, & Dave

Nothing wrong with that, by the way.

Nothing wrong with that. No, listen, most people, it's the right path. You should stay right where you're at, right? Because the reality is you now want to bring this LO on, and, you know, it sounds good and it looks sexy, but it, it takes 5 of their deals, 10 of their deals to equal what you would make on one of your deals. Did you guys know that 84% of $20 million producers are open to a recruiting conversation, but only if an executive is involved? Today on the Lending Leadership with the Mortgage Pros, we're going to talk about about why that matters and what it tells us about how recruiting really works. Dave, Tom, good to see you guys. How's everything going?

Morning, brother.

Awesome. How you guys doing?

It's starting to finally warm up a little bit, thawing out a little bit down here in Florida. It's been cold.

I love when we see some statistic on social media that drives us to a, to a conversation about that. I think that's what we're here for today.

Yeah, I can't remember if I saw that on LinkedIn or if I got an email from recruiter, but I sent it to you guys, I think, the next morning. Um, it's very telling, you know, LOs are looking to make a move potentially. They're, they're evaluating their options quietly. And it was interesting that they'll only talk— they don't want to talk to a recruiter, you know, recruiters are often, overpromise and never deliver, but they're willing to talk to the CEO or, you know, a high-level executive, the owner. So we figured we'd roll into a podcast about it because that's, that's kind of how we lead and how we recruit and, uh, kind of take it from there.

Yeah, I mean, it, you know, I think there's things, you know, and not every company because, I mean, some companies you're simply not going to be able to have the CEO do recruiting, but they're certainly involved for, you know, significant recruits now, more, more now than I think ever, ever before. And I think there's less recruiters in the industry than, than ever before, it seems. Um, and, and, you know, we've, we've gotten away from that model long ago, um, and, and believe that, you know, people come to work for people. And, uh, you know, trying to make that connection to be able to build a relationship with somebody that can actually, you know, they would actually work with, I think is really, really important versus, you know, they used to be a lot of conversations had building relationships with recruiters that would be at this company, then 3 years later, 2 years later be at this company and 18 months later be at this company. So I think it's the— I think why they want to, you know, speak to somebody more at the top is they really want to see stability. I think there's a lot of people getting tired of making changes every 2

and a half years. Yeah, what do you think top recruiters are looking to avoid by talking to, you know, by not wanting to talk to a recruiter? I mean, I would submit it's they probably don't want to get fed a line of bullshit.

I think it's partly that, Dave, but I think that they, they really want to get a vibe and a feel for the leadership, right? Like, who, who's sitting at the top? Who's driving the bus? Like, they— I think they really want to feel for that, to know that they're going to align with someone that's got their same values and visions and is, you know, kind of on the same page of where they want to take their, their, uh, their business. Which I guess is, you know, a different way to say they don't want to get fed a

line of bullshit.

You did the

more professional— I mean, some, some recruiters have given a bad name, and, you know, they, they make a promise and then they're not there anymore, or they're not the ones that manage them. And I think that's big, you know, it's, it's harder to— it's more difficult to, to mislead somebody when you know eventually they're going to catch on that you misled them and you're the one that, that has to deal with the consequences, you know. And there, there was really no accountability to that, uh, to recruiters, um, over several years in

this industry. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. You know, it's, it's one thing to hear it coming from Uh, an owner, an executive with a long-term tenure that, you know, is going to be there. It's, it's something totally different to hear it from someone that's, you know, getting, getting paid on your placement, on your production, um, that has more of a monetary vested interest. It's, it's, you know, the recruiting game almost, I think, shifted, and the viewpoint of it is that it's self-serving for the recruiter. Um, you know, I think a lot of the— a lot of these mortgage professionals out there, when they look at it, they don't feel like the recruiter is worried about placing them in the best fit for them. You know, their company maybe isn't even the best fit. Are they going to be honest about that? They're just worried about getting them in the door and getting production so they can get paid off of it.

And I think that they don't have that same feeling with a top-level executive or an owner Um, so I think that's a big difference.

Yeah, when, when a senior executive, CEO, owner shows up early in, in the process, there's nowhere to hide in the future if promises aren't kept, right? Uh, if, if a, if a LO recruit is told something, uh, and then 3 to 6 months later, once they onboard, things have changed, they already have a, you know, a relationship with that person. They already have, you know, an email and phone number as opposed to just, you know, blaming them on the recruiter. So when I think when an executive, a high-level executive shows up early, that really says something.

Well, and we, we see that play out, right? Like I, I tell people as we're talking to them, you know, I, I say something to the effect of, listen, you— I'm never gonna blow smoke, um, because it's gonna take you about 37 seconds of landing here to figure out that I did that, and then I've lost all credibility with you, and I'm the one that, that's going to have to listen to you not be happy and find a way to fix it. So you may not always like the answer that you get, it may not be exactly what you're looking for, we may not be that fit, but I would rather iron that out and we know that before you walk in our doors.

You know, guys, I'm bringing up some notes because I, I was in a mastermind yesterday, uh, with a several like branch managers and top producers, and, and recruiting was the topic, and, and we, we asked, brainstormed around in a group, you know, why do, you know, loan officers leave or change companies and, and, you know, what actually attracts them. So, um, some of the things, some of the things that came up were more money and, uh, or less work for the same amount of money, or more money for the same amount of work, which is something we, we've always believed in. Um, better leadership, Stronger company support, better tools and technology. Uh, there's a focus on AI right now, marketing, social media support, uh, branding support, access to loan partners, processors that process, autonomy and flexibility, uh, local market saturations or limitations from large organizations. Those were some of the, the whys, uh, that, that people— oh, and then, um, and leadership. Poor leadership, um, you know, was, was one as well. So this is better leadership, poor leadership. But, um, interesting because, uh, you know, more money, you know, I think you want to— I wonder, I wonder what they meant by that.

I don't remember if we drilled in more money. Is that like more money up front or the ability to earn more money? I guess, I guess different people interpret that

differently, right?

Yeah, I think You know, it's, it's been interesting as we've seen kind of the evolution of recruiting over the last, I don't know, 10 years. Like the, the movement— we saw a movement almost to like free agency, right? Where you, you get paid a boatload of money up front, you have a contractual term, um, where you're obligated, and then it's almost like as that contract comes up, you start looking, okay, where's my next payday? Where's my next, you know, check coming from? And I think we're starting to see a shift from that, and the leadership piece is, is important to that. People don't want, um, that transactional type of recruiting anymore because what they've seen— what— and what we've seen over the last 4 or 5 years, especially through COVID, is you get these big checks and you sign your life away for 2 or 3 years, and 90 days in, all the promises have changed, the pricing's moved, right? Um, and, and now you're, you're, you're really captive for the remainder of that term. So I think that's probably, you know, the, the would be somewhere around the more money conversation, but it would be interesting to get some more feedback on that.

It's actually ruined, you know, a bunch of loan officers we know. It's ruined their career, right? They took a big check, six-figure check, you know, high six figures, thought they were on top of the world, took a bunch of money and then they went to a company that was not a

good fit. Um, lost motivation, didn't work hard, lost business.

Well, yeah, a lot of lies, you know, a lot of promises not kept. And it's like, we've seen, you know, people who've done $50, $60 million now out of the business. Like, you know, it— I'm a loan officer, and obviously I'm not leaving this company, but if I was leaving, right, and I was looking, I, I can tell you what I would be looking for. I, I thought I thought deeply about this. Like, I, I'd want leadership that was forward-thinking in what the future of this business looks like in 3, 5, and 10 years, right? Looking at what artificial intelligence and automation, uh, and bots are going to do for a company. And if, you know, if, if I'm at a company or talking to a company that is not on the forefront of that, if they have an owner who goes, oh, that AI stuff, that automated automated is bullshit. Like, I mean, like, okay, is this company going to be around in a couple of years? You know, are we recruiting more loan officers? Are we just losing loan officers or the loan officers we have just getting eaten away at every year? That's what I will look at. I mean, I'm not talking— I'd want some visionary leader like Elon Musk who's talking about sending, you know, mortgages on the moon, baby.

Mortgages on the moon or Mars, but I, I'd want someone who was definitely like more forward thinking than me. Right. And I think we have some of those leaders at our organization, but that's what I mean. Pricing's important. Ease of doing business, having an assistant.

But where's it going?

Yeah.

Where's this bit? Where's this bit? And it's not even 10 years from now. It's 3 years from now. It could be 18 months from now. So I'd be really focused on the leadership and what they say. And what they're— what they're talking about technology and AI. AI is such a buzzword. It's almost as bad as change management.

You know, Dave, I think you're absolutely right. And originators should be thinking about that and thinking about, you know, where the industry is going and they're making a move. Like, what is that company doing to align with it? That should be a really key question. When we— when we pulled this group, some of the top things that stood out and we were talking about, you know, They— these are managers talking about, you know, recruiting originators to their, to their branches, to their teams. So, they talked about, you know, they think that branch leadership, branch-level leadership matters, not just company-level. Sales culture and collaboration, proven systems and processes. They talked a lot about how a lot of originators don't have effective, you know, systems and processes in place. So, the ability to show those and how they produce results.

Um, is, is, is crucial. Uh, clear value proposition, reliable processing, operational support. Um, and yeah, operational support, processing, marketing support. Those are the things that, that they say is what, what attracts recruits.

Every company will say they have that in spades, but when you kind of like peel it back, right? Um, that's not true. Like, if, if, if you're talking to a company and they say they have good marketing, right? And they have a god-awful social media game, like corporately, I can tell you they don't have good marketing. And marketing is not important to every LO out there. It should be, but it's not. But if someone says, hey, we got great marketing, and, and their latest posts on their Facebook page or Instagram's like from 6 months ago, that company does not have good marketing, right?

Every 6 months doesn't get it done.

Yeah, every 6 months does not get it done. If they say they have great ops, right, and it's, it's a fire drill and, you know, underwriting's at 4 or 5 days and they're not going underwriting first or they don't even have in-house underwriting, they don't have great ops, right? So, um, and I'd always recommend an LO to talk to, randomly call up from the website, uh, LOs and, and get the skinny. And if you get on that website and the website was from the late '90s, also not, not a good company to chat, chat with. I mean, all those things should be warning signs.

Those things certainly matter. You know, it's interesting, as we were talking in this group, one of the things you mentioned, Tom, um, you know, on the same leadership aspect is— was kind of the, the leadership of who they align with, right? Like, and that's something that I think a lot of the people out there listening that are saying, hey, you know, I think I want to go manage production and maybe build a team and recruit— like, that's something you guys, I would challenge everyone to think about. It's something we challenge our leaders to think about. So you have the company that you align with, right? And they provide the platform. Um, but as a leader, what do you bring to the table to entice people to align with you? Like, what are you— what are your values? What, what avatar are you looking for? What, what's your avatar to mirror with people?

Um, you know, what your team say about you when you're not in the room.

Yeah, what's your team say? What, what leadership, you know, do you have those stories of originators that you have partnered with and, you know, looked at their vision and where they want to take their business in 12 months, 3 years, 5 years, and you've done it. And now those LOs are telling the stories. Like, I think a lot of times in the recruiting game, especially at the branch level, we just— we worry so much about what the company has and we don't stop and think about what do I bring to the table as a leader, right? And we also get it Let's, let's be real. We get it really twisted. Just because you're a top-producing LO— we've said this many times— just because you're a top-producing LO doesn't mean you're right to lead other originators. In most cases, it's actually opposite, because you're so worried about your production and your deal that you're not going to be that servant leader. You're not going to help them grow and develop them. For most— say that again.

Nothing wrong with that, by the way. Nothing wrong with that. No, listen, most people, it's the right path. You should stay right where you're at, right? Because the reality is you now want to bring this LO on, and, you know, it sounds good and it looks sexy, but it, it takes 5 of their deals, 10 of their deals to equal what you would make on one of your deals. And it's a lot harder, like, there, there's a lot more that goes into it. So that's just something I always kind of go back to and think about as we talk about this conversation, you know. So as we talk about these things and we talk about being that leader and, you know, really put kind of an emphasis on recruiting— we were talking to our group about this, um, as we whiteboard. And one of the things we talked about is, you know, what are some of the outreach and recruiting tactics that they can— that we see as practical, practical and repeatable? Like, what really works? What moves the needle, right? Because we've all gotten that, that cold call from someone we don't know who the hell they are.

Your fires are burning, you're in the middle of something, and they call you and they're wanting to pitch you, right? It's funny, I got a call recently and the guy called me and said I'm gonna pay you more than you make, 200 basis points on every deal. And like, instantly I'm like, dude, you don't know anything about me because I don't originate anymore, right? Like, you don't know your audience. So what are some of those outreach and recruiting tactics? We got a pretty good list here. The first one, you know, I, I don't think can be overstated— peer-to-peer outreach instead of recruiter cold calls. I think this is also why we see that, that you get kind of instant credibility when it's that CEO level, that executive level, that owner level, because it's not the recruiter, you're peer-to-peer. Simple affirming coffee meetings with scripts. Um, and really all of this, guys, what, what all, all of this boils down to— if we just threw the word recruiting away and replaced it with relationships, um, that's what this next one is. Long-term nurture.

Not opportunistic outreach. You're building relationships with these people. You're trying to find synergy and common ground where you guys together are stronger than you guys apart, or you guys at separate companies, right? Um, staying in touch and providing value over time. That's a big one that shows that you care and you're not just looking for the quick buck. Um, and then avoiding sleazy transactional recruiting behavior. We talked about that a little bit already. Those are things that, you know, are really important and can start setting the foundation of that relationship. We have a list, Tom, we talk about this.

We've got a list of 60, 70 people that we would love to work with, and we're confident one day we will, right? It's not gonna be tomorrow. It's not gonna be next month, but at some point in some time in the next few years, something's going to happen and they're gonna be looking to make a move. Their company got bought, they changed something. So some— there's going to be some catalyst, right? And the whole goal is that we have a deep enough and secure enough relationship that when that catalyst happens, we're the first person that they think about and they pick up the phone and call us, and we go from there.

Yeah, that, that's been my strategy for years. The way I look at it is I'm going to be where I'm at for another 15 to 20 years. And, uh, you know, when you look at the averages, you know, most people that, you know, are, are out there are going to make change, you know, between now and, and the next 15 to 20 years. So, you know, you have to be as that trusted person that when change, you know, change happens to them or is needed for them, um, that you're that trusted industry professional that they can consult with and, and give a real, a real look to, you know. Um, but how you've built your reputation during that nurture time is important because I think that's what You know, why recruiters have struggled, they go to a company and they have like X amount of time of a guarantee. And, you know, it's not like, you know, your great recruits aren't like 1, 2, 3, close. Like, you know, and if you're calling people that are looking to be recruited, you know, you're, you know, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't really convert like that. You know, it's a relationship game.

So they're not there long enough to build the relationship. Um, and and, and keep it consistent with how they behave in the relationship. And, you know, how they show that they provide value, I think, is really part— big part of, um, you know, establishing who, who you are as a leader with that person that says— that enables them to want to reach out to

you when needed. Let's jump real quick to like what the ideal loan officer, you know, looks like, who, who's a good branch manager and who's a good recruiter. I had in my notes, loan officer avatar. I, I hate that word avatar, but, um, you know, I sketched some things down before, uh, the call. Uh, ethical, low ego, growth-minded, self-sourced hunter, team-oriented, community-driven, loyal, uh, experience, uh, but not brand new and not burnout, not a job hopper. This is huge, uh, not a chronic complainer. Um, and then, uh, do not hire high producers who are unethical or transient. So I mean, that, that's, that's kind of, that's kind of what we're looking for, right? All, all those.

And not an asshole, right? That's our number one rule.

We don't hire assholes. Not an asshole. We don't hire assholes. No, that's a great list, man. You know, I think the, I think the important piece, um, as you develop this list is it's, it's gonna be a little bit different for every leader, right? Um, so what I know from a lot of recruiting is when I did not have kind of these guiding lights of, of what I was looking for, I made some really bad hires, and those bad hires set me back further than, uh, if I just wouldn't have made the hire, right? And so that, that's the real risk that you run here. If you don't, if you don't box this in and know what you're looking for, uh, you get so excited because recruiting's a grind, guys. You get so excited when you get a yes that you just let anyone in the door And that can be counterproductive.

What do we always say? Sometimes the best hires or the best decisions are the ones we didn't.

Yeah, some, some of our biggest wins have been our misses. Yeah, for sure. It's funny how that works out. And you can drill this down more, right? Like, this, this is more, uh, like, like traits and personality. But, you know, one thing I always look for is Um, you know, percentage of purchase business. With, with the data out there now, it's really easy to get this percentage of govvy business. I like to see 20% govvy business, right? Like in a target. Um, so you can definitely drill this down.

Um, but it's important to know as you start to look at this, if you're going to be having these conversations, that you know what your target is. Yeah, and what it tells you to

do is, is it allows you to be more of a— of a, of a sniper towards who, who are you building your relationships with? Are the right people? Do they— it's not even about the production, just the production. It's about how, how they align with those, those values and those things that matter. Um, because, you know, you can have thousands of conversations, but I, I'd rather have, you know, 50 or 100 with

the people that matter. Yeah. And it's okay to be really selective here, guys. Like, everybody's not going to be a fit, and, and if If everyone is a fit, you're doing it wrong. I can do that. So good, good stuff here, man. Um, this is something that is near and dear to all three of us. I've enjoyed kicking, kicking this around with you guys.

I think some good nuggets here. Um, you know, one thing that, that I would say as we were wrapping up, um, you know, if you're that branch manager out there, you— your, your whole goal is that you want to build— a team, you want to build your presence, your leadership, um, so that you're someone worth talking to, right? Um, recruitability is just that— it's built, it's not pitched. Um, and it takes a little bit of time. It's not an instant on, it's not flipping a light switch. So if you attack it every day with that mindset, um, this is a consistency play. If you— 20, 30 minutes a day every day is better than 3 hours once a month. Right? And really, guys, it's building relationships. Well, we hope you guys found something of value here.

One last thought that I'll leave you with: if you are a branch manager out there listening, what is the first thing you should evaluate as you look at growing and recruiting based on the points we talked today? Drop us a line, we'd love to hear from you. Hey, go ahead and make sure you hit that subscribe button and, uh, certainly smash that, uh, that review button. Leave us at that 5 We appreciate it. For Tom Mills, Dave Holland, I'm Robert

Filiau with Lending Leadership with The Mortgage Pros.

Thanks so much. So—