KC and Jamil discuss the complexities of being disabled in higher education by virtue of identity, visible and invisible disabilities, accessibility, and perceptions, featuring guests Sarah Rizzuto and Aura Fortier.

You can listen to/read some of Aura's work here: The Illusive Men (https://youtube.com/channel/UCEqnBYms--G9c5uXPQdPItg), Recusant’s Sigil (https://youtube.com/channel/UCjMoinzM5Eoo0G2loLA5Vyw), and Forever Intertwined (https://www.amazon.com/Forever-Intertwined-Aura-Fortier-ebook/dp/B08HQZZG6P/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=9781098322496&qid=1601916276&sr=8-1)

Hello KC. So, once again, we are back, having another conversation that

has been on our list for quite some time. We are. I feel like we're playing

catch up. True. We do have such a long list, so I was

thinking about the podcast, and some goals, some vision for what we might

be, what I'm hoping that we create. So follow me here,

I wanna see what you think about this. Of course. So

you know how sometimes people have to have an experience of something themselves

to understand something or to be an advocate or to be some kind

of ally, or even to just believe something exists, like COVID.

Some people not believing COVID exists and they get COVID and

now they understand that it's real. You don't believe in something... Or

someone they know. Right. And I think that's true for a lot of

things. I think that's true for, certainly, I've experienced that around

transness. It's like if I'm the first person someone's meeting, all of a

sudden my people see like, "Oh wow, look at all these ways that

the world is set up, but it's hard for trans people.

I didn't know that until I met you."

So here's what I'm thinking, what my hope is, with the podcast is

that people get to know us and they

listen in on these conversations, and even if

the podcast gets to do that, like the podcast

is the friend or the experience that they have, that has them see

the world differently and make some kind of change.

Yes, it's also exposure, which I think we are getting at here,

providing folks that maybe in their own ordinary lives do not get the

chance to interact with folks from different cultures, different backgrounds,

different experiences from them. So, they may only hear about a particular

kind of person, from stories they read, from

experiences from third party folks. So, hopefully, we are providing a place

where people can hear first hand account of what is it like to

have a certain experience in today's society and also in higher ed?

Yes, absolutely. Okay, loving it. Great, so that was, really I think that's

what we're about, and for some reason, I hadn't actually thought about it

in those terms until this morning, but here, for this conversation,

today we're talking about disability, today we're talking about access.

Well, we're talking about lots of things. We have two amazing guests with

us artists, both of them, poets, we're gonna hear some poetry from them.

We have Aura Fortier who is a poet, a lyricist, a singer,

she's here in Milford, Connecticut, and we have Sarah Rizzuto who is an

MFA, she's at MFA at Southern and has taught, does teach disability studies,

poetry, creative writing, and she's an advocate. So both of them are here

with us today for this conversation. Welcome, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. Truly glad. Thank you. Yeah, so exciting.

I've been dying all week to have this conversation and welcome you two back

so this is really exciting for me personally. Thank you. Thank you.

Very appreciated. So one thing that... A place

that I think we should start this conversation is that

a lot of times when it comes to disability,

there are disabilities that are quite visible to people in the world,

and then there are those that are not visible,

and there tends to be sort of a stereotype about what disability...

I'm using it like a singular, but of course,

we're talking about a huge range of things when we use that one

word, but they're not all visible and the way that we talk about

disability in society is, I think we can do a better job.

Yeah, I think the world is kind of caught up a little bit

in a binary of disabled versus non disabled and all assumption,

as weird as it sounds, is, or at least maybe to us a

least, it sounds weird, is that the default of assumption is that you're

not disabled until you make it known you're disabled, and then

depending on the person, disabled might mean all these things you're not

saying, disabled, they expect a certain level of in capability to do these

things, and meanwhile you might be somewhere more in the middle or

something that affects you in a more minor way or something like that,

and then you gotta try to prove the validity of disability,

and it's a whole thing, and to kind of have. Not exactly the

same as being in the LGBT community at all, but

it's similar in the sense that once you out the fact that you

have a disability, then there's a bunch of stereotypes and expectations

and perceived biasness and all these things that come out. So you gotta

decide sometimes, is this someone I want knowing I'm disabled? And

it can be a lot, for sure. And in my case,

I don't really have, you know, I don't get to decide,

is this someone I want knowing I'm disabled because I use a power wheelchair

and as soon as you meet me, it is as apparent as the color

of my skin, which is, I'm dark skinned, and I was adopted from

India, so those two things are equally obvious,

but even though those two things are equally obvious, the first thing that

perhaps a stranger would comment on is my wheelchair, and often

people approach me and ask me questions that you wouldn't normally ask someone

that you don't know. So then you have to decide for yourself,

are you gonna share information with them? Who do you share information

with? And how do you approach a subject if it's just a momentary interaction.

I would never be surprised at the culpability and audacity of strangers,

and I can see the connections to being queer and being disabled,

but folks that feel so comfortable coming up to people they just met, barely

know, never had a conversation with, and will ask a deeply personal,

borderline, maybe even offensive question about their way of life,

about their quality of life, that you wouldn't even ask maybe your own

siblings or parents at home. So I would never be surprised at the

audacity, and I think the conversation about invisibility, and visible disabilities

is a good conversation to have because often folks may not even believe

someone with the invisible disability even has such,

and this notion of having to prove that you need accessibility,

that you need resources, seems to be also a notion.

And I think the interesting thing too is... And Aura you mentioned this

right at the beginning about, the assumption is that...

And I think built in there, the assumption is that people are not

disabled until you find out that they are. So the norm,

like a "normal person" doesn't have a disability unless you see that they

do, and the same... I think the parallel there with queerness is certainly

the case that people are assumed to be

heterosexual until they come out. In my case, there's kind of the assumption

that only older people have disabilities. I was born with my disability,

it's not something that I acquired. When strangers do approach me,

one of the questions they often ask is, "What happened to you?

Did you have a car accident?" That's the stereotype that people have in

their minds. Many people do have car accidents that lead to disability,

but in my case, I was born with it and

I hire my own people to work for me and help me with

my every day life and in my work life as well,

and people that I've met aren't used to someone as young as myself

who's almost 40, hiring their own people and needing someone, they're used

to only elderly people needing assistance. Yeah, that's tough. I think it's

also important to almost add that neuro divergence is

way more common than a lot of people would think it is,

and I have this fear that people are masking or pretending they don't

have neuro divergence because it'll change the way they're viewed and in

a society in which we just said that it's cool to be whatever

or to have whatever difficulties you have or whatever,

in that society people's needs would get met and everyone would feel welcome,

but if you have to pretend to be something you want to get

through something else than what you are in order to get the results

you want, I feel like there's always gonna be a bit of a

resentment in the back of people's minds, it's gonna make them feel

hurt and unheard, and just make it difficult to be the kind of

person they wanna be. And I don't know if I'm explaining it well,

but it's like that's important that people don't... That some day people

feel like they can talk about their experiences

and they are valid, and there's nothing wrong with having these difficulties

or differences or struggles, that it is normal because what is normal,

and so that they can get what they need and be the best

person they can possibly be. I used to tell the students in my

disability studies class, I'm disabled now, and I've always been since birth

like I just mentioned, but one day if you're lucky, you will be

too, because it means that you've lived long enough that your body will

start changing and not functioning as it used to

and so if you're lucky you will acquire some form of disability and

need help in a society that values independence over interdependence, it's

a really big deal for people to need help in ways that they

view it only for babies or the elderly. So

to be in between is often a difficult place to be,

and even when people grow older, it's difficult to ask for help,

because we live in a culture that doesn't value asking for help,

even though all of us do it every day, at a store,

at a restaurant, we just don't see that as basic, we see that

as to be expected. Of course, we'll ask our waiters to help us, or

someone that works in retail to help us, but we won't ask someone

to help us to use the bathrooms, for example.

Yeah, it's also kind of debilitating in a social way because

you take the assumption that everyone can do a bunch of things,

like driving, for example, means that we don't have transit systems that

are accommodating to people who have any level of disability, and I don't

mean just from maybe not having the wheelchairs properly, which

could be it's own challenge, no doubt, trying to get on

a bus or whatever with wheelchairs and lack of accessibility or whatever,

but even from the perspective of like the buses in Milford take a...

They're only run for like, I don't know, like 12 hours,

and then there's like a three hour lunch break somewhere in the middle,

so it's like... And the bus routes are only gonna go certain places,

so it's like unless you... Any plan, you can possibly have,

it's exactly all the things you need it to fit, if the thing

doesn't happen, the thing you wanted to go to, the event you wanted

to go to, the thing you wanna be part of,

you just come to the realization that, "Oh,

I guess I'll have to stay home instead."

And for people who don't have disabilities that can drive and bring themselves

wherever, it's not probably something they think about a ton,

but it's definitely something that impacts your life when you are disabled

in a significant way, if you don't drive, that is, of course,

obviously. I don't drive, but I have my own car.

So the people that work for me also have to drive it,

and there's a lot of coordinating and juggling in that because not all

the people that work for me drive and that's different, but also before

I drove, I also had to take either paratransit or buses,

and like Aura said, that's very difficult to arrange, there's caps and schedules,

if I live too far off the route, they're not coming to pick

me up, that's why I somewhat chose to live close to New Haven

because we have city buses and accessible taxis, but even so,

the car that I have, I had to get through the state,

and that's $50,000. So a lot of things that people with disabilities need,

whether it's a learning disability or physical disability,

they are out of our price range, not many people I know own a

$50,000 vehicle. And the reason that it's much is because it has to

be modified, because even though I don't drive it, I sit inside it,

so the cost of things is difficult. Absolutely. And I think

there's so many good points that you both have made, and certainly

disability is an interesting category to think about,

because like you said, Sarah, some people are

"born this way" and then other people move into and sometimes out of

and back into various forms of disability as we age or as we

exist in the world. Except now I'm like complicating things in my mind

because, well, we can transition genders, but the race that you're born,

that's not gonna change. The context around it might change. That's why

I mentioned that when people see me, they see my skin color and

my disability, but the first one I always get asked about is my

disability, and in these times, you would think that it might be my

skin color on some day, but it's never been that.

I still think it's wild that... Jamil is

cynical, so he's not surprised, but for people to come up to you

and say, basically some form of, what happened to you?

I believe it, and also it's shocking to me. Something I think about

often even in DEI spaces, diversity equity and inclusion kind of spaces

and groups, we don't talk about disabilities often,

I have noticed. A lot of people are not having these conversations,

they're not thinking about accommodations, what the other person may be

experiencing, how to make maybe the client or your student, or X,

Y and Z feel more comfortable in the space. We're not having these

conversations. And I wonder how COVID has changed that.

So many folks will say that COVID may be a mass disabling event,

there were so many people who now needed the support of breathing machines

to breathe in hospitals, where that was not happening previous. So our nation

and our world as a whole, felt that change. Our lives changed drastically,

and so I wonder, will that leave a lasting impact on how we

view folks that have disabilities and how we approach

helping and assisting. That thing has kind of been...

First of all, it's important to mention that

in some ways, even it's still not quite equal, like you think COVID

stops everyone from doing things, it's not quite equal in the sense that

if you could do less in the past,

it doesn't bring us to even. It brings us closer to even

but it's still... When your one chance to get out of the house

was to go to the thing with a few friends, and all of

a sudden you have to get yourself there because COVID has made it unsafe

for people to be in the car together or whatever, then you just

don't go to... What I'm saying is it's not totally equal,

but it's a lot closer to equal. The saying that I've heard is,

everybody's 24 hours in one day is not the same 24 hours.

Sure. If you use paratransit, if you use transit, if you had PCAs, aides,

as I said caregiver, that only come in at certain times,

like the way that I use my time, and the way that Aura is

talking about, the way that you do things really depends on

how much you're able to do in a given day and

not everybody is the same, and that depends on a lot of different factors.

Yeah, absolutely, and the one thing that really... One thing has shown dramatically

to change though, is how much more accessible we can make the world,

how much more stuff we could put on a Zoom call that would

normally require me to take an hour or two, both ways,

to go only 15 20 minutes by car or whatever, instead we can

make it a Zoom call and have that be that.

Even so much from the position of work and stuff,

even affecting non disabled people, to be honest,

to take away some of these commutes and some of these extra things

that were never needed in the first place, has been eye opening

and positive and seeing how nice it is to have something a little

more social sliver, to get a little cash, get little... The stimulus checks,

to get a little money the extra money to help people and all

these things, to see all the differences and positive changes this can make,

and then to see the entire world go, but we're still a capitalist

country, and you need to justify the value of your existence,

you need to have puritanical work values, you need to

be so morally uprighteous as to fit a certain expectation of the kind

of person you're supposed to be in order to get help.

You've to consistently prove you are worthy of any kind of help.

And... And unfortunately, any positive changes will be damned when we still

think of people in that framework, when we go...

When we change to the mindset of everyone deserves a certain level of

help if they need it, so that we can all function,

that'll be a huge positive change, make a little difference; until we adopt

that mindset, these changes always feel temporary, it feels like

when just thing changes a little bit, we're gonna go back to where

we were, even if we saw all the positive differences that can make.

I agree with Aura, because a lot of people are surprised to learn

that I don't just get my wheel chair, I'm not just granted my

wheelchair or my walker or my shower chair, I have to advocate for

it and ask for it and have it in writing of why I

need it. And it has to be processed and

revisited every couple of years, so all this equipment that I've been using

all my life and that I definitely need and couldn't function without them,

there is always a worry in the back of my mind about,

will I qualify for another wheelchair, what if like I've had a walker

now that I've had since six grade, and I've been looking for three

years to get a new walker, and I can't find a similar one,

so even the basic things that I need,

equipment that people think I just receive because it's obvious that I have

a disability is not the case, 'cause like Aura said, you have to

constantly prove why you need it and that you're worthy of or something.

Yeah. Yeah that believability piece, especially in your case, Sarah, you're

proving something that has always been true. Means that you have to... It's

not... Since you have to continuously make a case for and advocate for,

and you're highly educated, highly capable, highly skilled person, and I

just think about just how many folks don't have that...

And don't have resources to be able to advocate

for what they need and just how much time and energy. It's difficult

to navigate systems, it can get very tiring, it's hard to be persistent,

so not everybody has that ability, and I understand why they don't have

the time or energy, but... It's... Sorry. It's a double edged sword,

the situation because like... Okay, let me give you an example.

So, I'm sure you guys have heard by now,

the whole idea of get an unemployment or get disability or whatever as

long as you do then do the things to get yourself so you

no longer need it, take it for time you need it and then

get off of it so that other people can get there whatever so

that... 'Cause once you have savings and you can put aside you can

basically, it's people who don't want you to forever be on disability or

whatever. They'll say that 100%. But then they'll set a $2000 limit on all

your savings, so let's say I don't really have enough money to really

invest in Wall Street, but let's just say

I was so good at budgeting, which would be a miracle by the

way, because you have to pay for food and shit and stuff so it's not

really realistic, but let's just say I was able to put aside a

decent amount of money each month and was able to start investing in

stocks and be able to put a savings aside and all that.

I would very quickly be over 2000, and then I would no longer

receive any money, so I wouldn't have a chance to ever build those

savings, so I can eventually be independent. They set a system where they

lambast you and criticize you and get upset at you because you're dependent

on them, but then they create the system in such a way where

you can never not be dependent on it, because if you can't have

more than $2000 savings, come on, is anyone gonna retire on less than

$2000 of savings? Right. So, when I'm not working, that's the same limit

that I'm under, and that's why I mentioned my expensive car,

for example. Yeah. The reason that I can't even if I had $50,000,

which I don't think I have and will. Someone just won the Powerball

in Chester, which is where I used to live, so it's possible,

but in general, I don't have the means through the way the system

is set up to achieve economic stability, financial stability, even though

I'm always asked when I'm evaluated or receiving help for my aides, I'm

always asked, "What are your goals?" And what I say is,

my goal is to stay in the community, but what I wish could

say is, my goal is to buy my own car, my goal is

to publish a book. My goal is to do these things that you

don't even see possible, that's not in paperwork because like Aura said,

there's such a low standard set. And I'm really freaking lucky 'cause my

parents help me in a million ways, they helped pay for my phone,

they help pay for cable to do all these wonderful things,

to help me out and make sure that I have... I'm living a

quality of life that would be decently, somewhat above

what my income would be I would think.

So it's like... On one hand I'm truly, truly grateful for all that,

and it's wonderful that I'm lucky, but then also not everyone has a

family that's doing decently enough to help them out and all these other

things, if I didn't have the support and helped my family,

if I didn't have my mom bringing me shopping once a week and

doing all these things... Being disabled in today's world would be really

rough, it's not easy as is currently is, but it would be really

freaking rough if my parents weren't, like I said, helping me with my

cable bill and things in that nature, and making sure I have internet

and all these other things. So it's frustrating to think,

to imagine for a second, to relate to other people, to imagine someone

who doesn't have the support I have. I think that's where the advocacy comes

in, with something... Absolutely. And we both advocate, but also

sometimes I feel like even though I always wanna help everybody else like

many of us do, that sometimes I only have the energy to advocate

for myself because... And that itself helps other people, but by example,

I hope, but even among people with disabilities, like we said at the

beginning, there's such a wide range of disabilities and different needs,

that to know exactly what someone's situation is and help them figure out

how to navigate it is really difficult, to find someone in exactly the

same situation that you could talk to or relate to and be like,

"How do I deal with this specific issue?" It's nice to know that

others can relate to you, but it's different to find someone that can

actually help you navigate different barriers that you face... Yeah. Yeah.

Point up. And I think it brings us to a really good point

of this conversation, what we talk about how hard it is to be

not only your own advocate, but for advocating... But other people in your

own community, but... What can the folks that are not part of that

community do to uplift and also advocate on your behalf,

even in small or large ways? So I think about often in the

space of higher education, how can folks, faculty, for instance, make classrooms

more accessible, how can folks that work in facilities ensure that buildings

are accessible, how can deans make sure students are getting the resources

they deserve and need to thrive at a university or a college?

So I think about admin for instance, how can they give out funding

to ensure that certain pockets of students needs are being met?

And how can they facilitate that for the rest of their staff to

follow, the trainings we receive, how are student peer experiences?

What are the training they're receiving around disabilities?

I think that we're at a public university,

in any public institution, in any institution period,

I think should have a responsibility to welcome the whole community,

and we know that institutions of higher ed are historically exclusive,

and I think sort of fundamentally, a lot of people are excluded period.

Sarah, you were mentioning people always surprised to find out like,

oh, you're a professor. Yes. When I was first starting off,

trying to go through school, I needed help from the state to help

me hire people. When I was 19, I suddenly got thrust into like,

"Okay, you have to hire people to help you through school,"

you know... And that was totally new. They said,

"What is your dream job?" And I said, either to teach at an

art school, or to become a university professor. And they said,

well, you can't do that. And I said, well,

we didn't say this was reality, you asked me what my dream job

was, and he said, well, you could accomplish enough with just a bachelor's,

and so they weren't gonna let me go forward because they are looking to

what makes me employable, and I'm glad to be employable, there's people

that can't work at all, but that was again, that low standard so... have

higher standards and communicate with the different people that are disabled

and ask them what their needs are and just be open and receptive.

And being told what you can't do. You're not capable of doing that,

or this thing is not for you. Yeah,

the system itself in that way is disabling.

There's a constant infuriating dissonance between the message we are all

given when we were younger, which is, go achieve your dreams.

You live in the land of possibility, anything can happen,

and then you start to, especially in the case of being disabled, even

to a degree, being a person in general, I won't deny it happens

to everybody to a different degree, but I think it's almost like a

different level when you're disabled and it's like,

okay, what if you wanna become a baseball player? Well, if you're

physically disabled, if you're physically disabled even to a small degree,

you probably aren't gonna become the super athlete necessary to become successful

in baseball or whatever sport you can imagine,

and if you've got a super visible obvious disability, then yeah,

it's gonna be basically a miracle at that point, unfortunately,

and this is not a knock on the passion or the work ethic

of people, but it's just, there's a certain level athleticism when you're

going to top level sports that if you're starting from a certain level

of challenge, the odds of you actually making it to where you'd need

to be are very likely and well, you can go, okay,

obviously, then don't become a sport player and fair enough, but everything

to one degree or another, presents itself with a

level of challenge that in some way compounds upon itself...

If you have a disability or if you have something that makes it

harder, even so much as... I'm trying to do music. This is a

good example, I'm trying to do music and

when it comes down to it, when getting together with friends to work

on music or whatever, when I can never bring myself to where we

need to be when I need someone to pick me up or drive,

that adds extra maybe half hour both ways, and all of a sudden

something that would have been really feasible if I could drive myself there

becomes a lot less feasible, and I think that happens to...

Even to go away from that, I think it happens to a degree

to everybody, everyone gets told achieve your dreams

when it's a nice little message on a TV show or whatever,

but when it actually becomes you actually actively pursuing it,

your dreams, in order to get the support and kindness and help you

need along your way, your support has to fit

the expectations of dreams you should be going for by someone's standard.

If you want your parents' help, you gotta go for a dream that

your parents will support, and in some cases, they'll support anything,

and in some cases they won't... Some folks, they'll say, "Hey,

you wanna achieve that particular dream, I think you should be going to

become a doctor or a lawyer, and if you don't go for that,

then I don't really wanna help you," or

if it's the state or... It's people with disability should have these expectations

to go for these goals but not these...

And... I guess what I'm saying is it's harsh,

when you get told your whole life and fed your whole life that

you should go for the dream, and then when you actually try to

achieve whatever that dream of yours is, and you're getting told that

it's not a dream that we feel is worthy of supporting.

That's tough, and that's tough for everybody, not just disability, but especially

disability. I think it's even a larger conversation, 'cause it reminds me

of the lift yourself up by your own bootstraps. Amen, yeah. That you

hear often, and that argument has been used on

numerous marginalized communities that somehow you should be able to lift

yourself out of your own situation and climb the social ladder,

independently, even while the society is actively oppressing your community,

so just forego the oppression that society is placing on your community,

and instead reach towards social mobility, which we know statistically is

just a difficult thing to achieve in this nation, especially compared to

other nations that are around the same playing field as us.

So I think often, it's not even about reaching for your dreams,

it's about having your basic needs met. So many people are just trying

to have their basic needs, they don't wanna be an NFL player,

or the next huge American Idol singer, they just wanna have a safe

place to sleep, food to eat, have their medication paid for,

they just want basic needs, and even those things can be hard to

attain when active oppression is happening, even if those around them do

not even necessarily acknowledge that oppression is happening.

Oh yeah, also, are we allowed swear on here or no? We do. Huh? We do

sometimes. Okay, well, then I'll say it the way I actually wanna say

it, which is the whole notion of pick yourself up by your bootstrap, is

fucking bullshit. The mere idea of it is total bullshit,

and what I mean by that is that

we as humans function as the species, a social species that helps each

other, that works together, every single thing we fucking do, if you have

streets, that's because someone who was not you most likely, probably paid...

Statistically, I'm sure it's possible, you're one of the people working

on it, but most likely, statistically, that's only a small, small version

of people, if you have anything on this planet that exists,

it's because we all decided to help each other and accomplish things,

and even these people who are... Who say, the people who are the

biggest proponents are people who, they're trying to get their emotional

needs met, they're having lives, they have friends, they have oftentimes,

they have resources that maybe some of us don't...

They have all these things that only exist because we live in a

society of things that exist, and social presence, social availability,

that makes it possible. Okay, let's say these people... Let's say someone...

One of these people who love this bootstrap mentality. What happens if their

house gets broken into? Do they call... Do they take care of it

themselves, personally, because they're all about independence and believing

in themselves, and can do it all on my own, or do they

call the police? They call the police. We all... I'm sorry,

I'm sorry. It goes back to my point about interdependence and how

society generally believes in, that you can do everything by yourself,

and I admire people that are very independent, I do. I think I

met a lot of teachers that I work with that are very independent,

take on lots of classes, do a lot,

but me, for example, I'm only... Because of my disability and my disability

check that I received when I'm not working, I can only teach one

class and people ask me, "Well, you have

several degrees. Why don't you teach more? You're very smart.

Why don't you do more?" And they mean it in the best...

In a well intentioned way, and there are people that know me well,

but then when they learn my circumstance, they understand that I've done

the best with what I've got, and that's all that anybody can do,

even doing that is sometimes sometimes difficult. Yeah. The question of

interdependence has been coming up a lot on the podcast.

The last part of the season actually, and

often I think about, I'm gonna make a relation to transness. A lot

of times people conflate transness with hardship that they're one and the

same, just think about all the ways that that is hard or like

a parent, like a kid comes out to their parents,

and then the parent thinks like, "Oh, this is a tragedy for my

child's life; everything's gonna be so hard for them and people are gonna

treat them badly," all of that, all this negative, something is brought

up. And at some point, I started to

think about and ask people like, What do we bring? What do we,

uniquely as a group of people, what do we have to offer?

What have we learned from our experience that

is not a hardship, but is something that is really valuable

to us and to other people that you we share. I think in queer communities,

in general, I think that interdependence is one of those things,

and caregiving, mutual aid, certainly... Tenacity is another one, but interdependence,

like, I think that that point is really

an important one, especially in American society that is so caught up on

the values of independence, of being a productive worker and measuring people's

work in that way. But I'm wondering if Sarah maybe you could say

a little bit more about interdependence. I'm thinking about how I was at

19. I certainly was not in a position where I could...

I couldn't even imagine myself being capable of coordinating caregivers

at that age. I mean, I... Never long enough. I could barely handle

those. When you're in elementary through high school, you're given someone

that already... You're assigned an older adult that's gonna work with you,

but when I came to Southern, they told me I have to find my own caregiver,

and I was like, "Okay, how do I do that?" And they were

like... And this was two weeks before school, and they told me,

"Well, you have to put up flyers," and I'm like, "That's not very

helpful." But southern is one of the most supportive places that I've been

in terms of disability, but still, even at Southern and even out in

the community, it's even harder to find people.

And not only to find them and get them to interview and

all of that kind of responsible stuff, but

just navigating like, "This is my life and this is yours,

and how do we help each other?" Like today, right before this podcast,

someone that worked for me for five years said, "You're the star of

your own life," and she's someone that I know very well,

and she knows me, and I believe her, but like I can't be

the star of my own life if no one comes to get me

out of bed. Like it doesn't... It doesn't matter. So in order to

pump myself first, I have to put others first. And that's hard,

and it's hard when you're 19, and to be like, "Okay,

I don't want you to go and party and worry about these typical... "

I mean, that's a stereotype too. Not all college students party,

but to balance college life and the social demands and also work for

someone who needs help but is also a college student as I was,

so it's like a tricky balance, and being a good communicator is super

important because people get... People need to understand that even though

they may be caring people, this is... At times, it may still be

just a job to them, because I have a l ot of people

that come to work for me over the years and now they have

hard days, they are having difficulties themselves, especially during this

pandemic, and sometimes I feel like I'm kind of like

a counselor to them, and I want them to speak to me and

tell me about their life so that we can move forward and have

a good day and try our best during the shift because their shift

is actually what makes up my life. So,

to them, it may be just a shift at the moment,

but those shifts make up my every day

routine and what I am trying to accomplish, and that's why sometimes I

feel like me being a professor, as great as that is, people see

that as the highest accomplishment that I can achieve, and I know that

that's incorrect, but sometimes I don't know what more I can achieve if

I don't have better help or the people that are working for me

don't have better help. Sometimes people say that

my aides and my PCs, personal caregiver, seem more disabled than me,

I have more disabling circumstances, so this whole notion of independence

assumes that everybody is "stable", but I'm working with people that are

from minority groups, I'm working with people that don't have much money,

I'm working with people that face inequalities themselves, and that makes

it... That makes it a very caring community of people, but also makes

it very difficult, and I appreciate both sides of it,

but... Something I'm thinking of is... And KC, you had me rolling my

mind on it when you were talking about

how we view hardship. You come out as trans, people think of hardship,

you come out as gay, they think of hardship, you're born with disability,

they think of hardship, you're black, they think of hardship.

All these things, people immediately think, life is gonna be hard,

you're gonna have all these horrible experiences, X, Y and Z,

when often, when you ask folks that hold one or multi of these

identities, some of the first things they don't think of is hardship.

They don't... Most people that are marginalized don't think of hardship

as some of the first things that come to mind as an everyday

part of their life. And I was talking about this a couple of

days ago, you know it's Black History Month, all the streaming services,

they have a category that's say "black voices".

You look on black voices, all the movies are about enslavement,

they're about Jim Crow, they're about hardship, they're about voting rights,

they're not about black romance, black comedy, black joy.

So I think often when it comes to being a part of a

marginalized community, you have other folks writing your story for you.

You have people in power, people that are not even from your own

community, writing stories about your community and what they think that

experience is like on a an every day basis. Almost every movie I've

seen with a gay character is about that person coming out of the

closet, and it revolves around coming out of the closet as if it's...

There's one huge moment in your life like a Quinceañera, and it's like,

boom, it's a huge thing that every character has to go through it

on the big screen. And it's almost like the same stories of hardship,

and these very unique stories of hardship are constantly pinned on communities.

And I wonder, 'cause you know, KC, you're a storyteller, we're on the

call with two artists, when folks are able to create their own stories,

define their own selves and express that with the world, will these narrative

shift on how we view each other and how we interact?

Right. And there's the hardship. We can't... We're not gonna say that there

isn't a hardship, 'cause obviously there is. And that's not the fullness

of someone's human being like by it... By any measure. I remember

Questlove actually said something that I thought was really, really pertinent

to this kind of thing, and so much so that literally in the

middle of this his interview on The Daily Show, I literally went straight

to my Facebook, I was like, "Okay, I need to talk about this."

He said something to the effect that I'm paraphrasing here, 'cause I don't

have the greatest memory. But he said something about, to truly appreciate

the black experience you need to see black joy,

you need to... And that goes, and that's 100% true to all marginalized

communities that are not understood, you need to see... In order to see

the wholeness of a person and to truly appreciate them, you need to

see them in not just in pain, you need to see them in

the fullness of the different experiences people have, that's when you start

to see them as equals and see them and to be invested into

there, because if it's just constant displays of trauma and difficulties,

you miss out on a lot, and I almost feel like I obviously

I can't speak to being black. But when you talk about

for trans for me and stuff like, there's been so many challenges from

it, but like the amount of joy of being who I am and

as scary as it is that being vulnerable in that ask,

answer, asking myself questions about who I am and honestly answering it

rather than answering it in what society expects of me,

those communities that accept you for who you are,

those little pockets of heaven, make everything else worth it.

So it's like there is joy in our lives, it's not like we're

constantly sad and constantly depressed and constantly having difficulties,

there is joy, and I wish there was more of that displayed in

media because I think that's the kind of thing

that makes a world of difference when there's a sitcom character who happens

to be... Something happens to be, let's say LGBT, but that's not their

defining character trait, when it's not constantly being talk about, that's

when a person goes, "Oh wow! It doesn't make a difference about who

they are, I like that character, I would like a person with those

traits." Oh, wait a minute, if the person could be like that and

also be LGBT or a person could be like that, and I also

be black, or also be whatever. That's when you start to realize,

"Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind having a friend like, does it really make

a difference? No, it doesn't." It's to be seen as... To be have

our defining trait to be something other than our identity, helps other

people accept that we could be those things. And also disability activists

have been so key in and I don't... Is it necessarily if I remember who this

is... But I think there's a disability activists who said that if you're

not at the table, you're on the menu. Certainly that is

a common organizing principle which is if you're not in the writers room,

if you're not at the table when the policy is being made,

I mean, really like just fierce demands for inclusion, protection.

That's one of the biggest issues with Autism Speaks.

Everyone talks about how that entire group is supposed to be about autistic

people and about the struggles they face and helping them and stuff,

but it's actually just a bunch of people who don't have those experiences

deciding what they believe help is needed and what they believe the issues

are and what they believe is worthwhile putting on the agenda,

and to be honest, that mindset damages people because not all of us

necessarily see autism as... The way people who don't have autism might

see it or the way people who... We don't necessarily want to not

be a... We don't want to be less autistic, we want to meet

be ourselves, and when it's put in such a way where it's like,

How can we help autistic people fit this binary... This traditional expectation

about what a person is, it erases who we are to say that

autism is an inherently a bad thing, inherently wrong about it, but it's

not that different from the X Men, if you really think about it,

the comics X Men, it's like, Yeah. Maybe we want the power,

maybe we wanna keep our powers, maybe so to speak, maybe we're proud

of who we are, we don't want to... It's not about being normal,

it's about creating a world that allows different kinds of divergence,

that allows different kinds of weird and different kinds of...

So it's like there needs to be whatever the movement is,

if it's for a thing, you need a bunch of people that are

that thing at the table or else what is the movement even in doing?

KC, this is connecting to last season or first couple of episodes of

Ally ship, so many allies that call themselves allies or maybe even communities,

refer to them as an ally, can get lost by

being too much of a leading force for a community or a cause

that's not about them. And that's not for them. I think often allies

need to learn when to take the back seat,

and allow the folks that you are advocating for to lead the change

and to lead that movement, it's so beautiful to support a community,

it's beautiful to be an advocate for community, but you shouldn't take up

so much space. And that goes for so many things, you shouldn't take

up so much space that you are diminishing those voices, those concerns,

and it's almost where the movement is no longer about the folks you

should try to serve, and that can fit a lot of shoes.

Yeah, and I wanna get back to Jamil on questions that you brought

up and then we sort of went... Took the

conversation elsewhere, but we should be connected. I think, which is that

in talking about specifically in higher ed. I mean, these institutions are

not... Been built with able bodied people in mind... They're built for,

"normal people", most of these institutions were build for men,

not even for women. And then and I say that in terms of

physical spaces, but also beyond that, the expectations for who is higher

education for. And then we have these institutions that have been around

for however long and what... When we talk about accessibility, it seems

to me that we're retrofitting an institution that is not built, I mean,

that is built specifically for "normal, able bodied, independent, very independent

people". And I wonder if there are ways that we can take a

more universal design approach that is less about, let me provide individual

accommodation for individual students on the case by case basis, which involves

a lot of advocacy and a lot of work, and then what are

some ways in the classroom, or other ways, I think that's so we can

be more accessible universally, that it would benefit

everybody? Like a wide hallway, who does not benefit from a wide hallway?

Or having classroom instruction in multiple modes, who wouldn't benefit

from having those kind of options. Anyway, Sarah, I love to hear

your thoughts, you have been on both sides,

not to make it just a binary, but you've been a student,

a graduate student, a professor. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I think

it's... Again, there's so many disabilities that I think people...

That's why they have such an individualized approach, "Okay, you told me

to ask the individuals, so now what do you need with your accommodation,

go to the disability resource center, whatever is available at your school

and get documentation and let's see what we can do, but... "

I know that even just the physical arrangement of a room,

again, because I have a wheelchair, it's harder to go through

in between rows of desks, so I put my... Have my students arrange

the desks in half circles so that I can monitor them working better,

but I feel like if other professors took into account the layout of

the room and 'cause you have class outside sometimes and

it's virtual learning, something that you may use even after the pandemic.

I know there's been professors, not at Southern, but at other universities

that don't require... I don't know how I feel about this because I'm

not sure how I would implement it. But instead of requiring if someone

is absent and requiring a reason or a note, they just assume that

you're going to need that time to yourself and they don't require a

justification, of course, of course, if it's chronic then the student needs

to be spoken to and something needs to be worked out to help

the student do well in the class, but, you know, we're not not

having students always remain in their seats, are there ways that you can

teach where you're not thrown off if someone needs to get out of their seat

or needs to walk out of the classroom.

Can you have... I don't know how I would do this.

But I don't know if there is equipment, there probably is that turns

things that are not written in Braille into Braille. I know there are

things like that. Can you do that with the syllabus?

These are things that make me think about and how we sat in

our class, can you see that, you know, simple things as relating to

transness, like saying your pronouns and asking your students if they have

pronouns or nicknames that they wish to be called by and do they

have any accessibility needs? And now I am saying that I have my

own, besides an accessible desk, I had this aid, I... It had to

help me take notes. Does anybody else have accommodations that they need,

whether they have a disability or not, there could be a note taker for

each class, so that students who may not be able to focus on

taking notes and listening to the professor could

pay attention to the professor more without worrying about that responsibility.

Yeah, I came to Southern as a first gen student, and universities can

be extremely difficult to navigate, especially when you have needs that

are different from other students, universities can be really hard to navigate,

especially for people that have never been in these kind of spaces before,

or even have family that are... From these kind of space, that have

experiences and how to navigate these systems, and I'm not thinking about

just Southern because we do have our own unique resources here at Southern

that we do provide for students, but those resources may look different

at other universities. At our sister schools, but also universities across

the states, across the nation, even more complicated when you look across

countries. So, when I think about ways in which faculty

can support and ensure their classrooms are more accessible,

is by, one, knowing the resources at their own university, right? Like knowing

do they have a disability resource center or some type of equivalent at

the university, what do they offer and familiarizing themselves with them.

What kind of things do their university library offer.

I know ours had a Braille machine, does theirs? Is there other departments

that has one. Can they advocate to get one, for instance,

if they had a student with that need?

So, one, familiarizing yourself with the resources that your university

has and doesn't, right? Maybe even discovering resources your university

needs and telling administration and advocating for those needs to be met.

I think of as some things that come to my mind first,

and also people that are not faculty, right? If you're admin working in

res life, how accommodating are your buildings. How old is your infrastructure?

Does that need to be updating? Is that a priority?

Because all universities do have budget constraints. They do have time limits.

So, what are the priorities and how often are we evaluating those when

we're talking staff behind doors, how evaluating what we have, what we don't,

the experience students have. How are we collecting surveys to hear about

their own experiences, are the sidewalks being shoveled correctly during

a snow storm, are we making sure that's happening?

It could be things that are simple, like do the disability buttons work

for every door? Do every door house them? Are there elevators?

Does this one building have just stairs and no elevators? So thinking...

I think in multiple different ways about how is a building,

how is a classroom, how is the experience accessible? What are the resources

we have and don't have? I also deal with textbooks, I deal... Are textbooks

accessible. Is reading accessible, is the price of the book, are you using

open source textbooks? Can you provide alternatives? Do you have textbooks

in your office? I've had numerous professors who maybe they keep two or

three textbooks they have purchased or received from a publisher in their

office, and they will give them out as a case by case basis.

We have textbook loan programs at our university, some that their own department

has started, so as a faculty member, there's a lot of ways faculty

can give back and make sure their classrooms are accessible, even if they're

thinking about unique ways that may not even exist out in their own

campus. It feels like maybe to some people out there who are not

dealing with these difficulties and these challenges, that a lot of this

might sound like it would take hard and a lot of effort and

a lot of resources and all of that, but

I think it's crucial to keep in mind, first of all,

like you guys said, these things weren't designed with people that have

different experiences in mind, most of these schools were designed

with white cis men and those kinds of things,

or some may be slightly more... Maybe came in a bit later or may be more

open to different groups, but I don't think any... Almost very,

very few of these colleges were created with everybody that could go to

college right now in mind, and so it's going to...

You're not gonna be able to put the same amount of resources you

put in to everyone else and expect to get the same results because

we're not all starting from an equal place,

and it may cost an amount of money and a bunch of your

effort to institute all these kind of changes, but

essentially, if we don't put the effort into trying, we're essentially saying

that... They're saying that the communities that are affected by the thing

don't really matter and don't deserve that equal opportunity.

And when you put it that way, when you instead of saying convenient

lies to yourself and what makes it easy. When you say that if

we don't do these kinds of things, we are saying essentially that if

you don't make it accessible to a blind person, then you're saying essentially

blind person shouldn't have a good experience at your school, shouldn't

be equal, shouldn't be part of the thing. And it's very difficult to

tell yourself that 'cause it hurts if you're gonna say no,

'cause it makes you look at yourself like, "Wow, am I a crap

person?" But it's the truth, if you don't make the school accessible for

different groups, you're essentially saying that, that group is not welcomed

in your school, and when you say that,

that's like... It doesn't feel right, and I think that should almost be

a motivator, like I don't wanna have to look at myself in the

mirror and say that this school shouldn't be accessible for these people,

so let's do what we can to make it accessible for everybody.

To make it something that everyone can appreciate and be part of.

At the same time, then we have this whole... I just keep thinking

about this idea of productive workers. So much of higher ed is like this

business, like we must produce workers who will be then productive in our

economy if less... In a perfect world, college would be

just as much, if not more about the popular good,

about strengthening our communities, about truly make education and not

just job training. Okay. Universities are posed to be more, they are posed

to be a place of learning, a place of growth, not just

a class you take in order to achieve the job you want.

I've been in classes where there are people 75, 85,

who are coming to this university in order to do a course to

have more social ties in the community, to learn a new hobby,

and I think when we think about accessibility at a university,

it's more than just helping one population of people,

accessibility helps everyone, it makes everybody have a better experience.

And often, we don't think about accessibility until we are the ones that

need it, people don't often think that, "Oh, we should have this certain

thing or we should really try to work on this problem until they're

the one that are having that issue." But when we start putting things

in play, and mind you, these issues are systemic and they won't change

over night and they won't change next year, but when we're actively working

on fixing these issues and making our spaces more accessible, we can all

enjoy them better. And I think even folks who don't believe they would

benefit from these changes would benefit and would have a happier experience,

where do you meet folks that are coming from different ways of life

and that will enrichen their university experience? That's one of the huge

selling points of going to a university, is meeting and being with folks

that you have never met, and how they will shape and help your

life, how they may mentor you. So, I don't think folks are always

thinking of that actively when they're in the university space, but hopefully,

if we are hiring folks from diverse backgrounds, from diverse experiences,

we're providing spaces that allow these experiences to exist in equitable

ways. Because that's what equity is for, right? Looking at people and saying,

you need more than this, and then this and this.

We can all have better experiences. Well, you know I'm thinking...

Sarah, has me thinking now about how... I'm just gonna tell her myself,

because a lot of times when we go into classrooms, it just happened to me

today, the tables are removed. They are in a different

position, and the way that the tables were in my classroom,

today was fine for my first class because it's not very full, but

then in the second class, the way it is, it's like it wouldn't... Didn't

work for everybody, so we had to move all the tables and nobody likes opening

the blinds, it's sunny out, and it's February, so sunlight. And I... I'm

just noticing how I really hesitate to ask for help.

I tend to... If I can, I move all the tables by myself,

open the blinds, etcetera. I feel... I almost feel bad asking for help.

Now I'm interrogating, where does that come from? Why do I feel like

I can't ask... When I was on campus, I would...

On the first day of class, I asked the person that's working with

me to do it because I don't know anyone, and then

eventually, maybe one of the days, I'll use my wheel chair to plough a

chair out of... Plough a regular desk out of the way and when

the students sees me ploughing the desk, they're usually like, "Okay,

let me help you." And then they... But doing it every day,

like changing the desk set up every day, they usually get used to

the routine, and usually there's always a couple of students who jump in,

after I've been modeling it and they're like, "Hey, let me move the

desk for you so that you're all set. Let me grab this book

for you." So my students have been really great about catching on and

in some ways I haven't had to ask them

as overtly as someone might normally have to do.

The thing about that is that I actually think that what...

That act is like you're creating an interdependent community in which your

students are taking care of, not just you but each other,

there's a collective sense versus the situation I'm talking about or I'm

like, I have to do all the things.

And then students then are there to be... Where I'm taking care of

things for them as opposed to here. And of course, we're co creating

this learning environment together, but your students are doing that, it's

not just a metaphor for what you're doing in class but that would

create a different kind of community in the classroom.

I think there's something to be said for

that asking for help is always kind of an awkward experience.

It's always kind of uncomfortable at first, 'cause you always wanna... You

always don't wanna depend on anyone, you always wanna do your own thing,

but when you are disabled, you eventually come to the realization that in

certain ways you're gonna need help and you start to more get used

to the experience. It's almost like building a callus

and you start to go, "Okay, I'm not gonna be able to drive

in 10 years, just like I'm not gonna be able to drive today

so I gotta get comfortable with the idea of, if somebody wants me

to be at a place. Asking them, is there a way where I

can get there? You know what I mean.

Or could I have... And I think if you are someone who is

mostly capable of doing most things on your own,

then that rare occasion where you need help on something all of a

sudden feels weird and alien to almost ask for help.

And I also think there's such a fear of taking space in this

world, of causing people difficulties and the way people will respond and

the way people will treat you because of it.

And to have that kind... It's hard to build up that confidence where

you're like, "I'm worth it." It's almost like self confidence. I'm worth...

The challenges and difficulties I present, I'm still worth being around,

I'm still worth being friends with or hanging out with or whatever,

even if it means that if somebody has to go a little bit

out of their way. I know that I bring enough to the table that

it makes me being there worthwhile. So it's a constant game of dialogue

you have to have with yourself and something you kinda have to learn

to get comfortable with because everyone needs help sometimes.

No one's good at everything and it's okay to need help. So many

students go into university not wanting to take up space, especially if

they're marginalized and don't look like majority of the student population.

They wanna be in the background and their needs put in the background,

but I always tell students, you didn't pay to be there,

and probably a lot of money, probably a lot of money to attend

these classes, to have access to these buildings, to the staff,

to the faculty, you put a lot of money to be there.

So taking up space is not something folks should feel bad about,

just off the simple fact alone that you didn't pay to be in

that space, you deserve to be in that space. And while you are

there, your might, well, get everything you can out of that space.

I also think about peer to peer support while we're talking about this.

How much can your fellow peer support each other, not just in disabilities

and asking for help, but just being in community, right? Like the power

of study groups, the power of tutoring another peer,

being in community, eating together, enjoying time together, I think university

is a really interesting space where that occurs.

Well, I'm hoping... So Jamil and I have wanted to, for a long

time, have poets on the podcast. I'm sure you do have two poets. I'm

not gonna say it's a segment, but maybe it could be a recurring

segment in the future, but Sarah and Aura, you both brought poems to

share with us today, and I think that would be a beautiful way

to end this conversation because art helps us express

the fullness of human experience, it helps us deal with hardship,

it helps advocate and get things across, so I don't know who would

like to go first, but would love to hear your work.

Do you have a preference, Sarah? Would you like to go first or

like me to go first. It doesn't matter. Well, if you wanna go

ahead, I'll go after you. That's fine. Okay, sounds good.

So the poem that I'm gonna share today has to do with that

idea of... I think I mentioned it just in talking about the glass ceiling

and how... In my experience when people meet me and I say,

"Oh, I'm a professor." They say that's great, look at all you've accomplished

and you've done so much. And its true, it took a lot to

get there, but that shouldn't be the end of your high expectations or

what I'm capable of doing. So this is a poem that kind of

talks about that in a way... It's titled,

different lifetimes. My mom always says, upward and onward,

keep going. But had I not been adopted and lived in India more

than a few months, my cerebral palsy probably would have cost me more

than I can imagine. My disability wouldn't get me anywhere, stuck on street

corners. Selling pencils, nothing noble, only retribution for a previous

life, one that I couldn't remember, but one common determined I hadn't lived

well. Had I lived in India, I would be a Vasundhara caste, the

untouchables, scorned for past wrongdoings, often servants. Even as a servant,

I'd be sure to disappoint upward and onward, falling to sealed ears.

Here in Connecticut, a lifetime away. I'm a professor,

teaching English, one class on the lowest rank of the academy.

Even if I could step up, I lose the disability check that keeps

all other checks in their place, ensuring they remain small

enough for me to rent low income housing, enough to keep me fed with

a packed fridge. Enough to keep me warm and off New Haven park benches.

Those benches have helped the homeless, those with only enough for bus fare.

I'm grateful to be in from the cold, but my ceiling is made of

glass and I see right through it to cement. My raised fist bleeds, stared

down in silence. No one speaks of steps for me and my wheelchair

to make a grander entrance. Besides those seen as royalty, those I've dreamed

of standing beside since I was five. Those who knew I could do

more, be more, treated as equals in their classrooms.

Not as someone special only relegated to resource rooms.

My professors voices were loud, echoing my pants. "Keep going," they said,

even when feeling shattered around me because someone else's raised fist

came before mine. Yeah. Seriously. Drop the virtual mic. Yeah,

absolutely. If you're ready. What did you say? When you are ready. Okay,

got it. Got it. Yep, it's right here.

Alright, this piece is about the difficulty of finding yourself and

trying to live your truth, specifically in the LGBT community, but I feel

like it can... If you think about it a little bit... If you

think about a little metaphoric probably could fit a lot of different challenges

and things that people might deal with in trying to navigate the space

of not being what everyone expects or whatever. Alright,

Look at the hole in your

heart. Imagine if you tried to fill it hell with start, would you

consider giving in? Or would it become a battle? It's must win.

Would it become a battle that's must win?

You say you're intelligent but how much do you really want to know?

You close your mind with judgment and tell us when we die,

where we are gonna go. We are not broken. We don't need your

institution of saving. When fit into your choice lies feels like slaving.

So laugh and stare, enjoy the way your played out game is spit out

like gum, the scored man, the cannons, and then fire them to the

beat of their own drums. Although fighting is such a burden,

and you can't stop the world from turning. You don't want it to

stop anyway. Just change course to awaken the brave.

The rain will often come to rejoin the sky. But what follows is

majestic beauty that embraces the eye. A simple color held in visual prism,

a gorgeous sight beyond cynicism. It's hard to find the ones that make

you feel complete. We don't need the congregations of self righteous feet.

Your decisions of condemnation are baseless, you're preaching against our

right to free love is wasted. We are beginning not to have anywhere

for your words, just preferences and how to keep sheep in a herd.

There's something meaningful behind a smile, something meaningful enough

to break the rank and file. So let's eyes light up,

that should be enough to deal with what you find unpleasant,

time for a community of love in the present.

Yeah, we did it. Yeah, we did the third... Wooh. Well, I think...

Honestly, listening to both of those poems back to back, it's so...

Captures in a different way, I think, that long conversation that we just

had so much about community. Absolutely. Absolutely. I finally got to use

the applause button, so. Yeah, about that. And this has been a fantastic

conversation with you all. And I thank you for coming here and being

open and sharing your thoughts, your experience, and your expertise with

us and our audience. So thank you both. Thank you for having us. It's been

an incredible experience. Thank you. Yeah. And really, this is...

Your perspectives really have me thinking about... Jamil, and

I don't have disabilities at the moment. And I think that a lot

of times... It's a perspective that we don't necessarily... That we have

to actively bring in. And this conversation certainly opened my eyes

in ways that, I was just talking about as simple as noticing,

"Oh, wow, look at how I don't ask for help from students."

Challenging what we think of as normal or what students "Should be able

to do." And I think that, I believe, this conversation will be eye opening

for our listeners, too. So thank you so much...

To both of you for being here. Would now be an okay time

to mention the things? Sure. Okay, so first of all,

the piece I just shared actually comes from a poetry book I wrote

called "Forever Intertwined". It's poetry. Some of it's about

world topics like that, and some of it is about nerdy things I'm into or

whatever. It covers a lot of things. There's 30 poems in it.

So I'm particularly proud to have that book out, and...

Yeah, yeah, I have physical copies of, so I'm happy

to... Yeah, happy... Is there a way for our listeners to get a copy? Like

read it? Yeah, how do they read it? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I would need to... Maybe I could give my email or something

like that so people can see... Yeah, I do have physical copies,

and there is... Well, I'll have to figure out

a way to do it, but there definitely is a way if there's

interest, as well as something that will be a bit easier for people

to access without contacting me. I also have two EPs out, one for

the band called "The Illusive Men", and the EP is called "Suffer in

Full Today, Rebuild Tomorrow". So that's my main project, you might say,

musically. And then I also have a side project called "Recusant's Sigil",

and the EP is called "A Game of Martyrs and Parasites".

And they're both... I am the singer and lyricist of both projects,

so I'm particularly proud that people can check those out if they want

and see. Yeah, yeah, and just see if they're interested,

yeah, you can... We can put a link in the show notes,

perhaps. Huh? We can put a link in the show notes?

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd be happy to. Just let me know,

I'd be more than happy to do it. But yeah, just if people

are interested and wanna check it out, by all means, I'm happy to...

Happy to talk to them and see about that,

but ultimately, I'm just... Thank you so much for having me. I was

happy to... I'm happy to be here. It was a great time.

Wonderful. And Sarah, do you have any... Are there ways that folks,

if they're interested in your work, any... I think that not at the

moment as much, I wish that I did, but actually,

like we've talked about today in wanting to not... Being the fact that

I receive services from the state and things like that, I've always been

careful about putting out my work in the sense of like,

I don't want people then thinking I'm making too much money off of

poetry, which you really don't. Right. But that shows the kind of fear

that the system instills in you, so now because I'm working on my

first poetry collection, I wanna start a website with my work,

so if that is up and running soon, then I will share the

link. Wonderful. And when that book comes out, we'll invite you back on

the podcast. That'd be awesome. Ha ha, rock on! Yeah. Alright. Well, thank