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What is happening, everybody? I'm Larry Roberts.
Sara Lohse [:And I'm Sara Lohse, and this is Branded: your comprehensive guide to creative Branding.
Larry Roberts [:And on this episode of the podcast, we have an amazing guest with us. We've known this gentleman Now for several years, and he's always been super, super helpful when it comes to understanding our rights as content creators, as brand creators, And I've seen him speak on multiple stages. Sarah's been there as well. We've both interacted with him. We've gone to dinner with him. We've hung out with him, and he's actually become A pretty good friend as well, so it's our honor and pleasure to welcome Gordon Firemark to the show. Gordon, thanks for joining us today.
Gordon Firemark [:Hey, Larry, Sara, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Love the show, and I'm excited to be a guest on it.
Sara Lohse [:So that's awesome. May I just say this is the award-winning Gordon Firemark.
Gordon Firemark [:Yes. I was in Sara's home territory last week to receive an award from the Texas Entertainment. Was it? Enter Entertainment and Sports Law Association, and, that was nice. And it was nice to see you, Sarah, there. And, yeah, it's exciting stuff. So thanks.
Larry Roberts [:So so, Gordon, that's what you specialize in is entertainment law, And you've been doing it now for, what, over 30 years, I think, longer than Sara's been alive. Is that is that the case?
Gordon Firemark [:That is correct. Wow. That makes me feel old.
Larry Roberts [:Don't feel bad. I've been doing a lot of things since longer than Sara's been alive too, so I'm right there with you, brother. But I I I love what you bring to the table, and, you know, when we talk about Building brands and building content, and, basically, what we're doing is we're building IP or intellectual property. Yeah. And a lot of times, we have A very difficult time establishing ownership or copyrights or trademarks for this intellectual property that we put a lot of time, energy, effort, money into, and that's where you come into play. So if if you wouldn't mind, kinda lay the framework for us there, how you got into this, and and give us some highlights of of your time in the industry. Well,
Gordon Firemark [:as you said, I do entertainment and media law, and, I my my mission in life, if you will, is to Help to help creators to get their messages out and achieve the kind of impact and influence they, desire And do it safely and without, you know, fear of getting sued and so on. So that usually means setting up some various kinds of protections to let them Have the confidence so they can go out and be bold with what they're doing and really make that impact. I've been, as you said, practicing entertainment and media law for about 30 year a little over 30 years now, and I got into the field because I had a a passion for live theater as a kid. I got, Exposed to that very, very young. And then, in college, I pivoted into radio, television, and film. So I've been helping those kind of creators my whole career, and, the decision to go to law school sort of came when in the late eighties, the Writers guild went on a long strike. We are just coming off of a long strike this, last summer. Yeah.
Gordon Firemark [:And, So, you know, deja vu all over again for me, but, that's what led me to go to law school and become an attorney. And and I think that, really Uses my talents, understanding the creative mindset, but also being able to translate business and legal speak in to a language that those folks understand.
Sara Lohse [:With our show being all about personal branding, what I really wanted to hear from you is, Do we need to, like, trademark our brand names? Like, how much legal nonsense do we need to pull in? I'm sorry. It's it's kind of nonsense to me because I understand none of it. But how much legal stuff do we need to actually when we do launch a brand or launch a podcast, like, all of the stuff that we've been doing.
Gordon Firemark [:Well, this is a matter of some debate in the podcasting community in particular. And and and I guess I should back up and give a little history, a little background on different kinds of intellectual property law that's in place. You know? There's patent law which covers inventions, technologies, and and, systems and processes and things like that if they're unique, And you get some protection for about 20 years before it becomes part of the public domain that anybody's allowed to to use. Copyright protects the the content itself, the the body of an episode, the the music, the a song, a poem, a screenplay, a film, those kinds of things. So we we we have copyright from the moment we create a a podcast episode or something like that. If somebody copies the actual Content, substantially similar content, that could be a copyright infringement. But when we talk about brands, brand is an is a sort of another word, almost a synonym for trademark. It's a distinctive mark or symbol or word or phrase that is used to identify goods or services in commerce and connect them to the source, which company or maker is responsible for this product.
Gordon Firemark [:It's exactly what a brand does. Now in podcasting, a lot of folks say, well, Make the title of your show something that tells everybody exactly what you what you're gonna get when you listen to the show. My own show, entertainment law update, is a great example of this. That's all about? Yeah. Right? What something about entertainment. It's a very descriptive term. Now descriptive terms aren't normally protectable as trademarks under US Federal Registration Trademark Law, until it's acquired a kind of distinctiveness, which takes a number of years to to build up where the audience Connects has a secondary meaning, connects the dots for that. So my advice is pick a distinctive name that maybe evokes or suggests what the show is about, But use the subtitle.
Gordon Firemark [:Use the description fields to really tell the audience what they're gonna get. And, you know, the question is, well, does that affect Podcast discoverability and those kinds of things. So back to your question, Sarah, the should you do take steps to protect the trademark? I think absolutely. If you have a distinctive name, something that can be registered for for, trademark protection in the US, I say register it so that other folks don't come in and adopt identical or very similar confusingly similar titles for the show. You know, I have I have clients that that, almost not a week goes by where someone doesn't adopt a title that's the same or similar to to their client to my my client's podcast titles. And we send them a quick note, and, usually, it's it's pretty congenial. Hey. I'm sure you didn't realize, but, you know, you gotta you gotta change the name of your show, And most of the time, they do.
Sara Lohse [:Nice little cease and desist letter.
Larry Roberts [:I I I may have received a couple of those over the course of my career. Yeah. Those are always fun.
Gordon Firemark [:I always advise the clients, you know, yes. You can hire me to have me write a lawyer, and it comes from a law offices of letterhead and all that, and it's very intimidating. And Most of the time, that is using an a bomb to to do something you could, you know, coulda just shot a BB gun at. So I I usually recommend first contact, make it yourself. Reach out to them and just tell them, I have a trademark. Please change the name. Let's not get let's not take me have this go any further. And oftentimes, that works.
Gordon Firemark [:But, by the time they come to me, usually, it's a little bit of saber rattling that's necessary. So
Sara Lohse [:So when you say I have a trademark
Gordon Firemark [:Mhmm.
Sara Lohse [:That means, like, you that you've actually had to register it. So if you haven't registered it and someone else takes it, then you can't really.
Gordon Firemark [:Yeah. Great question. You know, registration is is a strong position to have, but having adopted a particular distinctive brand and used it in commerce for a while, you you acquire common law trademark rights as well. And so it isn't always Absolutely necessary to register a trademark, but the registration gives you a broader scope of protection and, covers you at a, you know, federal level here in the US, and you can register in other countries as well. But, you know, that that would mean nobody else in the US could use that brand Or nobody else could, you know, the podcast directories would take down a listing for an infringing title, which would
Larry Roberts [:Is that cost effective, though? I mean, is that something that most of your independent creators are gonna wanna incur the expense of in order to do that?
Gordon Firemark [:It it it there is an expense associated with it. It it could cost you a couple of $1,000 to to register a trademark, in the Two classes that, we recommend for for podcasts. That's the other thing is that trademarks are registered in classes of goods depending on what you're selling. So If you wanted to call your chewing gum double mint, you're gonna be out of luck, but if you wanted to call a medical device double mint, you might be able to do it. Wrigley's is gonna have much to say about that. So I can't imagine what that would medical device would be, but there you go.
Larry Roberts [:I've got some ideas, but they're not appropriate for this audience. So we'll just we'll leave it alone.
Gordon Firemark [:So is it cost effective? You know, I would say that at the point when you're starting to get serious about what you're doing as a business And it's no longer just a hobby, and you did sort of wouldn't care if someone else was sorta competing that way. Yeah. I think it's a it's a good, A good step to take if you can afford it. It isn't a high priority. You know, if if if it's a matter of Feeding your kids ramen noodles for the next week to make it work that, you know, I wouldn't wouldn't make the big investment there. But it's the kind of thing you should allocate some budget for at some point and and, and plan for. Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:So you you've mentioned patents and you've mentioned trademarks, but we often hear about copyrights. And a lot of times, I hear some confusion, and if I'm being honest, I get a little confused in the differentiation between copyright and trademark. Can you kinda break that down for us?
Gordon Firemark [:Okay. Yeah. So trademark is the protection for the brand, the title of a show, the brand, the name of a product, or something like that, and it protects these Distinctive symbols, words, phrases, and those kinds of things. Copyright is really about protecting expression of ideas. So if I sit down and write a script or A song or a poem or I sculpt something into stone. That particular creative effort gets protected under copyright law. And copyright law, The the protection exists from the moment the the work is created. So, every episode we create, every Script we write, every piece of artwork we generate for our show, those kinds of things.
Gordon Firemark [:If it wasn't AI generated, Larry, you're entitled to copyright protection.
Larry Roberts [:That question is on deck, so brace yourself.
Gordon Firemark [:Yeah. So so you get cover up protection sort of automatically, and, there is a registration system in the US as well. That's a good idea, but it's not nearly as as important or critical as it might be in the trademark space.
Larry Roberts [:Gotcha. Gotcha.
Sara Lohse [:Before Larry Brings in AI, and then I sit back and just don't say words. I I'm really curious with a brand name. Like, doesn't not necessarily have to do with just a brand name in general. If you get it as an LLC
Gordon Firemark [:Mhmm.
Sara Lohse [:Do you also want to get it, Like, registered as a trademark or stuff, or does the LLC give you that legal protection the same way a trademark would?
Gordon Firemark [:So the LLC name doesn't give you the kind of protection that you're that you're talking about here. I mean, if the company name is itself a very distinctive name like Xerox, for example, or something like that that doesn't have any other meaning in the world, then it's pretty powerful, and it becomes that common law kind of protection. But, you know, it's possible to register a company name in, say, California and another company register in Nebraska and another one in New Hampshire. And so which of those then has the exclusive right to use that in in commerce? So, also, company names aren't usually the product name as well. So, no, they're not the same thing. The the trademark registration is something else you wanna think hard about.
Larry Roberts [:Along that same line of thinking, you know, Sarah brought up an LLC. Mhmm. A lot of people will establish their podcast also as a sole proprietorship or just a DBA. Yep. What sort of protections are you looking at from between the 2? Are there any is there any benefit to going ahead and taking it and and forming an LLC for your podcast, Or is a sole proprietorship slash DBA sufficient enough to protect your your at least the name of the show and some of the other associated IP?
Gordon Firemark [:Well, no self respecting lawyer would ever do an interview without at least uttering the words, it depends once. You know? And this one really does. I mean, if you are just in it as a hobby and you don't expect to to be doing a lot of, you know, business stuff generating revenue and and those kinds of things. It may be okay to stay a sole proprietor or a partnership was what happens when 2 people just get together and don't take any Affirmative legal steps to establish the business with you know, in the government's eyes. Forming an LLC Or a corporation is a really good idea because it affords a kind of protection against liability, and LLC stands for limited liability company. In a sole proprietorship or a partnership, the owners of the business are responsible for everything that happens in the business, profits, losses, liabilities. Somebody comes comes into the studio, slips and falls and breaks their neck, you or your personal assets are gonna be held responsible for that if you're a sole proprietor or a partnership. And an LLC can sort of set up a a shield against certain kinds of those liabilities as long as you're doing things by the book.
Gordon Firemark [:Other benefits of forming an LLC is it it establishes a formal organizational structure, management, and control structure of things, and it also allows you to raise capital by selling shares to invest investors and things like that. So lots of reasons that some people might do, an LLC, The the most important for most being that limitation of liability. If you have a lot of assets, personal assets that you wanna protect, It's a pretty cost effective line of defense against those kinds of things.
Larry Roberts [:So when it comes to establishing an LLC, Are there any benefits? Because I have some friends that have established LLCs and they just go to the state. They pay, like, I don't know, $300, $350. They get their LLC. But then, O'Laire, he hired an attorney, paid a couple grand, got a fancy little hardback folder to put it in and all this other fun stuff with a whole lot of documentation in there that no idea what it means. Are are there benefits to going the the the lawyer route, or are you just as covered and is it safe and secure to just file it directly with the state.
Gordon Firemark [:I would say if you know what you're doing, if you're comfortable with state government filings and reading all the fine print and like that, then doing it yourself is an option. And in fact, I have a an online program for podcasters where I teach them how to Form their LLC, how to register their trademark, how to protect their copyrights, and make the contracts with their team and all those kinds of things. And And it's very do it yourselfable if you have a little guidance and and instruction and access to the materials that you need. But a lot of people aren't in the don't wanna be do it yourself first when it comes to the legal side, and so That's the advantage of using a lawyer, isn't it? Is that sense of confidence of that it's been done right and that, you we hand over a turnkey operation as you said, Larry. So you Yeah. You didn't have to read through every line of that operating agreement for your LLC and make sure that
Sara Lohse [:it's important because
Gordon Firemark [:you Go ahead.
Sara Lohse [:I'm sorry. I I was supposed to have read that.
Larry Roberts [:Oh, Sarah, you knew I was talking about you? I I I I wasn't talking about you directly. I just had heard from people. I didn't you did it through the state? I had no idea.
Sara Lohse [:I got a lot of papers. Yeah. They had a lot of words.
Gordon Firemark [:Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:I read the headings and the this is where you sign part.
Gordon Firemark [:If if you're willing to trust whoever Prepared those documents for you, and, you know, look. They were probably a lawyer. If your company is a plain vanilla
Larry Roberts [:No. No. Same as everyone else. You're missing the point. Sarah just filed through the state for the 3.50, and I have paid the 2 bills for or the 2 stacks Yeah. For a lawyer. And she says that I overpaid because she always hates the fact that I spend money pretty freely, and she's trying to get me to, you know, tighten the wallet a little bit. Well But I'm like, I don't I don't I don't feel comfortable doing it through the state.
Larry Roberts [:I want somebody to draw those papers up and give me those nice tabs that separate each section of the of the documentation. So I I don't know what
Sara Lohse [:call me out in front of our podcast lawyer to not pay for a podcast lawyer?
Larry Roberts [:No. I didn't. I I called myself out for spending money to me. No. I called myself Self out for not budgeting my money properly.
Sara Lohse [:I never specifically said that that one particular Expenditure was bad. It's just all of the all of them that you do are pretty Pretty bad.
Gordon Firemark [:You know, there is a kind of mindset around spending that, on on professional assistance and and other things that you know, some people wanna do it yourself. They wanna, save money and and, keep that belt kinda snug around the waist. And some people are willing to invest because they, feel that the peace of mind that they're getting from it or or just not having to think that much about things. And either way is fine. That's why I offer, the done for you services as well as the done with you and the done by you with instruction kind of levels of service in in my product line. So
Larry Roberts [:It's good to have multiple tiers of offerings in your services, Gordon.
Gordon Firemark [:Exactly. So, you know, back to the question. The there and there there are the other options too. There's the legal vending machine service. Right? The the ones that have words like rocket and zoom in their names.
Larry Roberts [:Oh, okay. Yeah.
Gordon Firemark [:And I sort of, like you know, look. Again, if you're if you are exactly like every other business, then maybe that works. I sort of liken it to, a vending machine. Would you would you get a haircut from a vending machine? Would you stick your head in a hole where it says haircut $1 with head of gear?
Sara Lohse [:Sticking things in a hole, and it's a very different conversation.
Larry Roberts [:Not appropriate for this time.
Sara Lohse [:Also in a gas station bathroom?
Gordon Firemark [:Well, maybe. Let's not go I'm
Sara Lohse [:staying away from that.
Larry Roberts [:Yeah. We're staying away with that in the post edit as well. So Well,
Gordon Firemark [:the the point being, you might get A really good haircut or you might end up missing an ear. And I think that using those vending machine style online services, there's some risk.
Larry Roberts [:Yeah.
Gordon Firemark [:And, again, if you're if you're a a a normal everything's the same as everybody else. The problem is podcasters' media production isn't like most other businesses, And so I I do think that there are some things that you wanna custom tailor.
Sara Lohse [:Yeah. I learned, that you shouldn't use Google Docs templates to create your contracts that you send to clients and have signed. Learned that one the hard way.
Gordon Firemark [:Well
Sara Lohse [:yeah. Now my attorney is rewriting them.
Gordon Firemark [:Right. And and I guarantee you pay more to have them rewritten than you would have to have them written in the 1st place to To cover
Sara Lohse [:He's my best friend's husband. I don't I don't think he's charging me this time.
Gordon Firemark [:Okay. Your best friend's paying the bill,
Sara Lohse [:Thanks, Kelly. Hey. I pay him in how much I spoil their daughter.
Gordon Firemark [:There you go.
Larry Roberts [:I I gotta do it. You you know it's coming when you're talking to me. We gotta talk
Sara Lohse [:to you. Have fun.
Larry Roberts [:Alright. Thanks for joining us today, Sarah. It's been great having you as a guest on Branded. But, yeah, I gotta ask because I've had some discussions. I've actually worked with a patent officer not a patent office, but an attorney's office that specializes in in, IP here in the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex, but it's been several months since we've had that discussion. So I'm wondering what are some of the latest and greatest that You've heard in the realm of, of of IP and AI generated content.
Gordon Firemark [:Well, this really is the The bleeding edge of the law and and technology right now, and it's sorta hard to say what the rules really are because It's gonna change again every few months. Sure. Right now, the copyright office has held that, unless it is generated by a human, it is not entitled to copyright protection. And this is actually a there's a long line of cases involving, Paintings created by an elephant.
Sara Lohse [:The the selfie taken by the monkey?
Gordon Firemark [:And the monkey selfie. Exactly.
Larry Roberts [:And the The song written by the holy spirit. Yeah. Someone tried to copyright that as well. So yeah. True.
Gordon Firemark [:Yeah. So the same rule applies to machine generated stuff. If it's not human, there's no copyright. And that has become a bit of an issue for creators that use AI as a tool in the making of their work, and the Copyright offices come out with guidance on how you're supposed to file the registration and disclaim the AI generated material. And and A fellow who tried to register some an AI generated material, and was rejected, he filed a lawsuit against the copyright office that was just resolved against him In favor of that office recently. And it's gonna go up on appeal, and, you know, it'll take a couple of years before we know the outcome of that. Meanwhile, on the other side, we have a lot of litigation happening around the training datasets, and Doesn't the machine have to sort of make copies of the material into its memory if nothing else in order to learn from it and so on? And so There are a number of authors that are suing because their books, if you ask for a detailed summary of the book, it'll spit it out exactly right accurately.
Larry Roberts [:Sure.
Gordon Firemark [:Well, how could it possibly have done that if it hadn't copied the book? And that's one of the arguments. In the image side of things, Getty Images and another a number of other stock photo agencies and those kinds of things. They're suing saying, hey. You know, you'd you used our images of this to train the machines, so now that when you ask the machine for a picture of Darth Vader wearing a Spider Man costume, You know, it it's getting into all kinds of copyright stuff there as well. Sure. So the output could be infringing even though Even though the, you know, the the work is new and original in a sense, you know, all kinds of weird issues there. Who do you sue? Right. Machine that generated the thing.
Gordon Firemark [:And there's also the music side, and we get into the AI generated songs. Remember, last summer, there was the, Was it The Weeknd? And
Larry Roberts [:The Weeknd. Yeah.
Gordon Firemark [:Yeah. And and Remember we collab yeah.
Larry Roberts [:Exactly. It was Weekend and Great.
Gordon Firemark [:It wasn't an actual collaboration. It was generated by machine, and it ran on the radio. And it was published on Spotify for a while, and they eventually took it down after demands from, I think, both artists management. But, again, you know, that raises other issues around what we call the right of privacy and right of publicity, use of a person's name and likeness and sound of their voice and those sorts of things. So Lots of, lots of gray in the areas right now, but we're we're watching and waiting to see what happens next.
Larry Roberts [:It's interesting because it seems like the the, from a legal perspective, things are moving pretty slow in that arena because, I mean, we've been in this position now for at least the last 6 to 8 months, that I've heard these stories and, I mean, the monkey story and Even the elephant painting and and, Getty Images and those suing MidJourney and some of these other larger, application platforms, But I haven't heard of much progress on that front. So
Gordon Firemark [:That is sort of the nature of legal developments. You know, legislatures can act fairly quickly and make a law, but if you if people are suing, you know, the process takes months months months or years. And then if you wanna appeal, that's another year or more. And, you know, by the time you get to the Supreme Court, you know, there was a case that was just Decided last summer finally that was 9 years of litigation Wow. To get to the Supreme Court. And it was a, you know, copyright fair use case involving, Photos, and you might have heard about that Andy Warhol case. It it went on for a long time and Yeah. You know, spending 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars on legal fees to get too.
Gordon Firemark [:So I
Larry Roberts [:would lose interest by then. I'd be like, you know what? It's been 5 years. I'm done. It's just whatever. Just I get there's no way. I'm too squirrely, But, but, no, it's it's great. I appreciate you giving us that input, and you may or may not have an answer answer here. And if not, I totally understand.
Larry Roberts [:Do you see any implications from an IP perspective With the executive order that just came from the White House in regards to AI and AI development, is there anything there that you might be aware of?
Gordon Firemark [:One of the areas I talk about, right of publicity, the name and likeness and sound of the voice thing. There is a section in those executive order that addresses that specifically trying to sort of
Sara Lohse [:I'm I'm sure whoever is listening to this says, Someone's gotta be like me. What? President
Gordon Firemark [:Biden signed an executive order a week or two ago now.
Larry Roberts [:It's been a couple weeks. Yeah.
Sara Lohse [:Yes. Context. Thank you.
Gordon Firemark [:And and it it was mainly aimed at how are we going to manage the use of AI in government and protect privacy and protect confidentiality and and classified material. And, you know, there there are concerns about national security if we're using that was generated overseas by the Chinese or the Russian programmers or something like that. So lots of national security concerns, But they did address this question of of, creating a sort of federal level right of publicity for people's names and likenesses and sounds of I
Sara Lohse [:will say artificial intelligence in government is better than the 0 intelligence we have currently in government.
Gordon Firemark [:There is an argument for me. Take.
Sara Lohse [:I don't know.
Larry Roberts [:Yeah. That's about as political as we get on branded, so, not that I disagree in any way, shape, fashion, or form, But, but yeah. So well, I appreciate that insight, Gordon. I know we we got a little bit into the weeds there, Sarah. I appreciate you establishing that context for some of the listeners that may not be as, in in tune with the AI development space as I tend to be and as I'm sure Gordon is to a certain degree as well. So, but I appreciate those insights. Did he
Sara Lohse [:answer the question after I cut him off? I don't even know.
Larry Roberts [:Yeah. He just used it. He did it in a different language. He it was legal.
Sara Lohse [:I didn't know. Yeah.
Larry Roberts [:Legal legal AIEs was the language that we was using.
Sara Lohse [:Okay.
Larry Roberts [:But, anyways, Gordon, you provided a lot of insight on a variety of different topics today as far as how we could secure, you know, our our own intellectual property that we, again, put a lot of time and energy into to to develop. So thank you for that. We really appreciate it. If you would please give everybody an opportunity to reach out to you, where's the best place to make contact and learn more about what you bring to the table as far as entertainment law goes?
Gordon Firemark [:Well, best place to look for me is gordonfiremark.com where I have sort of a, a menu of my various offerings that we were talking about earlier, And, that's a great way to find me. You can follow me on social media, gfiremark on almost everything. Gordon Firemark on Instagram because Something went wrong. And check out my YouTube channel. I do a weekly livestream podcast called Legit Podcast Pro, G Firemark on on YouTube as well, and, there's always entertainment law update, the the flagship podcast. So Awesome. Awesome.
Sara Lohse [:I was gonna say that you should, like, trademark, like, a new legal term that's just like the fire mark.
Gordon Firemark [:Oh. There's actually an insurance company called the Firemark.
Larry Roberts [:He knows.
Sara Lohse [:Could they get all of the legal everything, or can you
Gordon Firemark [:No. No. I can still I I and I have some protection in place for my name and and my my catchphrase, the podcast lawyer.
Sara Lohse [:So now you should be, like, just fire market. Like
Gordon Firemark [:Oh, that's bummer.
Sara Lohse [:We need to make this a verb.
Larry Roberts [:That that is that's That's pretty cool.
Gordon Firemark [:See, that's why you have conversations with brand consultants.
Larry Roberts [:Exactly. Now I did notice that you have an entire section on your website about the Firemark name. Yeah.
Gordon Firemark [:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Explaining what what the noun fire mark means and where it comes from, and, We don't know much about how our family ended up with it. We assume it was sort of generated for us at the immigration center when my Great great grandpa came in from Oh, wow. So
Sara Lohse [:The original transportation.
Larry Roberts [:I was gonna say it was AI generated when when they migrated over. So well, Gordon, man, once again, we really appreciate it. Hey, everybody. If you got some value out of this episode, if you're ready to fire mark your intellectual property, do us a favor. Slam that subscribe button so we can continue to bring this bring you this amazing content each and every week. And with that, I'm Lara.
Sara Lohse [:I'm Sara Lohse. I'll talk to you next week.
