If you’ve ever found yourself rage-walking through the neighbourhood, shouting into the void of motherhood, or quietly fantasising about a solo trip to Italy (just for a little peace and quiet), then today’s episode is for you.

In this episode of The Science of Motherhood, Dr. Renee White chats with author, podcast host, and reformed party girl Victoria Vanstone about the beautifully messy journey of parenting. From learning to parent without wine to redefining what being a “good mum” really means, Victoria shares her laugh out loud stories and sobering truths with honesty, warmth, and a big side of humour.

Her latest book Muming: A Year of Trying and Failing to Be a Better Parent is a brutally honest, hilarious, and deeply relatable look at modern motherhood. Vic pulls back the curtain on shouting matches, parenting guilt, sticker chart flops, and her deeply sacred ritual: the rage walk. Through it all, she reminds us that even in the chaos, love is what shines through.

Whether you’re in the thick of toddler tantrums, losing your voice to the morning school run, or wondering if everyone else has it more together than you, Vic’s here to tell you: they don’t. And that’s more than okay.

You’ll hear about:

• Victoria’s rocky start to motherhood – and how she adjusted from wild nights to white couches and rage walks
• The pivotal moment that sparked her parenting reset – and why she said yes to a flyer in the school carpark
• Why trying and failing is actually the point – and what a year of ‘better parenting’ really looked like
• Mum hacks and survival tools – from fake flour on your face to avoiding camping at all costs
• The power of real mum friendships – and why a sticky note and a block of Lindt chocolate can mean everything

This is your permission slip to laugh, cry, and let go of the pressure to get it “right” all the time. Because as Victoria reminds us, failing might just be our superpower and none of us are doing it alone.

Resources and Links:

📲 Want to chat more about this? Connect with Renee on Instagram: @fillyourcup_

🌐 Want to learn more about Dr Renee White and explore Fill Your Cup Doula services

🍪 If you want to gobble up our famous Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies, look no further!

📘 Mumming: A Year of Trying and Failing to Be a Better Parent – Available now via Booktopia, QBD, Harry Hartog, and all good bookstores

🎧 Sober Awkward Podcast – Winner of Best Wellbeing Podcast 2023: soberawkward.com

📲 Follow Victoria on Instagram: @drunkmummysobermummy and @soberawkward

🌐 Victoria’s blog: drunkmummysobermummy.com

If this episode had you nodding along, crying with laughter, or breathing a sigh of relief pass it on to a fellow mum who needs to hear it. And don’t forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode of The Science of Motherhood.

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 186 of The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thank you so much for joining me today. Today's episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village, providing evidence-based continuity of care to bridge the maternal support gap when new mothers need it most.

[00:01:26] Who can make gorgeous nourishing meals for you when all you're doing is eating toast and Tim Tams. Yes, that was me. Maybe you wanna consider having a doula. We have got doulas across the east coast of Australia, Melbourne, Hobart, Sydney, Geelong, Newcastle, Brisbane, and Gold Coast. So you know, if that sounds like your thing, head over to our website, I fill your cup.com, click on offerings, and then you can see pregnancy and birth doula or postpartum doula offerings there, and send us a message if you've got any questions. You can contact us via the website or drop into our dms on Instagram at fill your Cup underscore.

[00:02:42] You'll hear from her accent, she's originally from the UK. She's been writing about motherhood and what she calls her zigzaggy journey to sobriety for two years. She's also the host of the podcast, Sober Awkward, which is pretty cool. That's come out of her sobriety journey. But today we are gonna be talking about her brand new book called Mumming.

[00:03:38] I was laughing out loud the entire time I was reading it. It is just a breath of fresh air around, you know, the expectations of motherhood. In contrast, the reality. She weaves in huge like rage moments. She goes to rage walks every day, which is a fantastic, I love it. She has the most incredible mum hacks, which uh, yeah, you can note them down as you read them.

[00:04:32] There'll be all the details to buy Vic's new book, mummy. Uh, so without further ado, he is Vic Vanstone. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Vic Vanstone. How are you?

[00:04:48] Dr Renee White: I'm bloody freezing at the moment, to be honest. I'm here in Hobart and like it's ice, ice baby.

[00:05:06] Dr Renee White: Well, you can take the rain. Like that's the thing about Hobart, people say to me, 'cause I'm originally from Melbourne, they're like, oh my god, how's it look like living in Tasmania?

[00:05:27] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah, especially, especially, I've got a white couch and a dog. Oh, stupid. That is a major fail, and if anyone's listening, don't ever, ever buy what you think is a really nice couch and spend, God knows how much money on it 'cause couches are ridiculously expensive nowadays. What's so my first, I dunno, my first couch was a hundred quid. Like I don't understand why couches of thousands of dollars now. So I thought, oh well I'm gonna spend the money. I'm gonna get a nice one, I'm gonna get a white one. So it looks all boho and nice in my lounge and now it's just got.

[00:05:57] Dr Renee White: It's grey now.

[00:06:03] Dr Renee White: Oh my God. Our couch is like the bane of our existence. Like we, I don't know what the fuck was going through my mind, but we had this gorgeous like black leather couch and during COVID lockdown, in Melbourne, I think I went like, we all went a little bit, uh, you know, glitchy and I had thought, I had this idea in my head that I was like, if we get a new couch, it will make us feel so much better. And in between like one of those, you know, let out of your house moments. We dashed to a furniture store.

[00:06:46] Victoria Vanstone: Oh God. What?

[00:07:05] Victoria Vanstone: We could be talking about children right here. Now this is exactly the same thing, isn't it? It's, it's like, it's a huge thing to go into. You spend loads of money on it, it gives you back pain, it gives you hip pain, it fine. Like you spend up like wiping the surfaces of it all the time and making sure it's okay. Yeah. It's basically like having, buying a new child.

[00:07:51] There was so many pearlers. I was just like, this woman is amazing. I can't wait to actually meet her on the podcast.

[00:08:05] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. Which, for all those playing at home, the title, the official title is Mumming, A Year of Trying and Failing to Be a Better Parent.

[00:08:52] Victoria Vanstone: Oh, well, I was a complete party animal for 25 years. Mm-hmm. So I. I just thought, well, I'll get to the point where I'm supposed to have children, and that's what I'll do.

[00:09:19] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:09:26] Dr Renee White: That old chestnut

[00:09:48] But it is a bit of a shock when you have them and you realise that. Actually, they have their own characters and their own personalities and they answer back quite a lot. So it was very, very different. And in fact, that transition between being a party animal and a mum, I found very, very hard because of course I'd been very independent and thought I'd just, you know, stick a baby in a sling and go off traveling.

[00:10:27] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Did you, did you go through a stage of like, a bit of anger and resentment? 'cause like, I, I, I went through like a, a bit of a rollercoaster of emotions, very similar to you. Super independent. Probably not the recreational drugs and promiscuity. Um,

[00:10:51] Dr Renee White: But like it, I got really cross with the world. Like I was just like a big f you and why didn't anyone tell me it was going to be like this? Like, like, do you think that there's. I mean, we always say this, I think on this podcast in particular, it's just kind of like, why do we not talk about this more around the difficulties and struggles of motherhood?

[00:11:26] Victoria Vanstone: Well, it's a like with the birth stories as well. I remember after having like quite a complicated C-section with my first child, I remember I kind of felt like, well, I'm not gonna tell anyone about this because you know, I don't wanna put anyone off.

[00:11:55] Mm-hmm. And you go from having one identity to perhaps handing your own identity over to this little bundle of love in your arms. And that can feel really confronting. And that's definitely how I felt. It's like every part of me was kind of shed away and all I was was kind of this feeding machine that had to take care of this child and it felt like I didn't know who I was anymore.

[00:12:50] Which of course was an over drinker. Mm-hmm. So that didn't work either. So I eventually had to find other ways to succumbing to the fact that I was now a mum. And who was that identity?

[00:13:18] My understanding was that you were kind of like halfway to your car, and then someone's just like, are you coming to this meeting? And you're like, oh, Jesus Christ. Okay. Yeah, sure. All right. Talk us through that moment and then maybe that light bulb of, oh, okay. Hold on a minute like maybe, maybe this is the moment where I can be quote unquote, the perfect mum.

[00:14:05] And I, I, I knew that it didn't make me feel good and I remember when my mum used to shower me when I was little, I used to just think, oh, I never used to think. I must change my own behavior. I just did think, oh, my mum's shouting at me and I don't like it. Mm-hmm. It never, it never made me think, oh, I must be a good girl, or I must do better.

[00:14:37] Dr Renee White: how'd that work out for you?

[00:14:56] That ogre comes out and your voice turns into something you didn't even know existed on this planet. And I'd been into school. My kid was wearing diving shoes. I was in a right old state, and a mum had seen me. It was after my son had said to me, mom, you are fired. And walked into, no, was

[00:15:18] Victoria Vanstone: It's good because it's true. Do you know what I mean? It's. Like none of this stuff unfortunately is made up. And I remember instead of feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm so sad 'cause I've left my beautiful son at school. I walked out of the drive, you know, into the school car park going, oh, thank fuck. He's gone like

[00:15:38] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah. And I felt terrible. I do. Feel guilty a lot for, you know, the way that I have parented sometimes. But you know, that's something that runs alongside motherhood is all of this guilt and somebody ran over to me in the school park, car park. And handed me a flyer that was just some free parenting classes at my school.

[00:16:13] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and what was the process? Walk us through that because like. Was it a, like a structured thing? Like, and how did you feel through it as well? Like, I don't know, like I've never, I'm trying to think if I've actually been to a, I haven't been to like a specific parenting kind of class or anything. I think I've just spoken to a lot of people like this in a podcast and dived in Yeah, with stuff, but like how does it work?

[00:16:50] That's what it, that's what it felt like for me too like I didn't know. I knew that I had a lot of bad habits with my parenting. Mm-hmm. Like stuffing kinder eggs into their faces while I'm doing the, you know, school shop. The usual yeah parenting short-term hacks that we use to get through the day. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of those.

[00:17:38] So that was the counting method of 3, 2, 1, and then a consequence. So just having a bit of structure mm-hmm to my parenting rather than grasping at things that worked in the short term. Yeah, it was like putting a little plaster over everything really. Yeah. And then not actually dealing with the problem, dealing with it on a momentary basis and trying to get through the day, whereas in fact.

[00:18:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah, and I'm curious to know, like were there discussions with the kids at the time of like, okay, shit's about to change and I need you to get on board with this because this is like we're.

[00:18:42] Victoria Vanstone: Well, the book is based on a year of me trying and failing to be a better parent, which was kind of from the beginning of 2024 to the end of 2024.

[00:19:12] And I did sit down with the children at that time and say, right, I've learned this new technique, guys. This is something that we're gonna try and instill, not only to, I don't wanna shout at you. Mm. That is not what I want and I know you don't like it. And I realised it was causing them to shout back. I was teaching them bad values and bad habits.

[00:19:46] Occasionally something would work and you know, having a values stickers on the fridge alongside rewards charts and all of these different tools that I tried to implement that worked at different stages and didn't work at others when everything fell apart. Mm-hmm. Because that happens too, like in the book, there's a point where I have to say, right, this isn't working, so I'm gonna do this rewards chart.

[00:20:26] And I think that is my message with everything that I do, perhaps with sobriety and with parenting, is that I never, ever give up.

[00:20:51] Victoria Vanstone: God, what the, I'm not sure I wanna know which guy it was.

[00:20:56] Victoria Vanstone: Yes. Camping. It is good, isn't it?

[00:21:05] Victoria Vanstone: Thank you very much.

[00:21:12] Victoria Vanstone: This is not something I did. This is something I do on a regular basis now. Yes, and good for you.

[00:21:19] Victoria Vanstone: Okay. I'm British. I've got to an age. I'm nearly 50. I like a thousand thread sheets when I go away. I think that's more the point than anything else. Yeah. So basically, I hate camping, right? Yeah. And I live in Australia, everyone goes bloody camping all the time.

[00:21:41] Dr Renee White: Don't make me do it.

[00:21:56] So I gave in, uh, there was a weak moment I think in the book where I felt like I was winning. And when I'm winning I feel like, okay, I can do this and I can do everything that my kids want me to do. Yeah. And I give in to going camping and of course we pack the car up with for five hours, then unpack it again for five hours and have various arguments over putting up tents and blowing up mattresses that shoot me up in the air and all the, I even hate the sound of zips.

[00:22:32] When I'm on a horrible dusty cam tonight, I hate everything about it. So what I do is. When the children have gone to bed, like I tuck them into their little sleeping bags, I do their zips up and I read them a story and give them a little peck on their head, and then I steal my, the car keys out of my husband's pocket, and we only camp within a five mile radius of my house.

[00:23:19] Dr Renee White: That is spectacular

[00:23:27] Dr Renee White: I love this. It does, it does require a camping loving. Partner though, doesn't it?

[00:23:43] Dr Renee White: I love that so much. I, I want, I wanna know, what are your other mum hacks? What are the other things like as your coping mechanisms? Like if you have having a shit day and you're just like far out brussel sprout. What's your go-to like, I can imagine a lot of people sitting here listening, going, oh man, I'm at the end of my tether. Like, what are some of the things that really work for you now?

[00:24:20] I usually listen to some horrible crime documentary podcast and just stride it out with the wind in my hair and, and get all of those feelings of anxiety that have built up throughout the day, because I don't cope with parenting all the time. Yeah. Like I'm quite rubbish sometimes, and I feel that feeling of like, oh my God, I'm just getting really stressed out right now, and I, I need a break.

[00:25:17] So it's just, um, it's just a moment of me really. That's what I like doing and whether that's going for a massage, going to get pampered, you know, whatever you wanna do, that just gives you that moment of me. Yeah. I was on a podcast the other day and the lady said to me, oh, you do realise all the advice you'd give is to get away from your children as much as possible. I'm like just, that's probably not the best.

[00:26:00] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. And like to whoever that interviewer was point. It's like, but what do you expect? Like, like we actually are human beings. We require solitary like time. Mm-hmm. Me time. So we are better people when we are with our children. Like I don't think that that's an unrealistic expectation. Right? Yeah. And also.

[00:26:50] It's just like, I just call on the, the, the village. It's kind of like, right, who's co-parenting with me this week? Or like, they always check in, how you going? Do you wanna meet for lunch or something? And it's quick stuff, you know? It doesn't need to be this big you know hoo-ha thing. But all it takes is just, Hey, do you wanna meet for lunch today?

[00:27:23] Victoria Vanstone: Yeah, I think it's really good, really smart advice there because I often, sometimes if I hear a mom say that she's not joining the, the mothering group or the mm-hmm.

[00:27:59] But those groups throughout my parenting have been the backbone, the support of everything that I do. They're kind of the scaffolding, aren't they around you? These people who just get it and you're like, I'm having a shit day. I don't know how to wrap a baby. I don't know whether I'm feeding the right food. 'cause we dunno a lot as single people in our brains.

[00:28:41] I just ended up feeling really, really guilty and like I could never achieve anything when I read those books. So it's kind of like the anti expert I'm trying to be and go, look, we can try all of these techniques and we can read a billion books. But the camaraderie of Mo other mums and that feeling of support that you get from people that are going through the same thing is so essentially motherhood, I think.

[00:29:31] Like I, I still remember. My mother's group and I was like so new to the suburb that we moved into. We moved there when I was like 33 weeks pregnant. So I didn't know god damn soul and I remember meeting these women and on first blush, like, I was just like, I don't know if I'm gonna gel with these people.

[00:30:07] That's, but like, what about us? And I remember this girl like,

[00:30:11] Dr Renee White: opposite we are in this, you know, we're in the circle, there's biscuits in the middle, and we're blah, blah, blah. And like we're like, you know, holding our babies. And I remember this girl just like put her hand up and she was like, I'm really sorry, but can we talk about the fact that this is actually just really shit and we miss our old lives? And I was like, oh my God, I have now my fault.

[00:30:35] Dr Renee White: I just eyeball her. I. Yes. Yes. And I was just like, oh my God. Thank God. Someone has verbalized exactly what has been running through my head, which is I have been career woman for like a million years, and then I'm like, holy shit, there's like a barnacle baby that will not let me put her down.

[00:31:09] Victoria Vanstone: I think society has an unrealistic expectation of mothers. I think the constant judgment from other parents, the mental load and the pressure to kind of do it right is kind of like it sits on us all the time.

[00:31:42] I can wear an apron occasionally. It looks a bit weird, but I can be that person sometimes. But also, let's not just talk about that. Let's talk about what's hard. And normalize having good days and bad days. Mm-hmm. That's simply what I'm trying to do is say, look, it's okay. This is actually normal to feel like this and have these baby blues and to feel a bit shit sometimes.

[00:32:21] She knocks on the window. I wind it down and she just hands me a paper bag and I'm like, oh my God, what is this? She doesn't say anything. She walks away and I look inside and all that's in there is a bar of chocolate like lint sea salt my favorite. Yes. And a note on a yellow, I've still got it here on my fridge.

[00:33:02] Yeah. Like we are quite natural mothers without really realising it. All she did was say it's fucked. Mm-hmm. And that's okay. And what you are feeling is extremely normal. And that is literally the best parenting advice I have ever had in my whole life. Was my mate handing me that note yeah. Because I knew in that moment.

[00:33:46] Dr Renee White: Yep. We're singing along together. Yeah.

[00:33:52] Dr Renee White: absolutely, absolutely. And uh, I dunno about you, but like look, I have a, uh, we are very privileged in the sense that I have a quite a flexible work schedule and they are conscious decisions that we've made as a family.

[00:34:31] And there was three girls in particular, my daughter and two other girls, and there was there, we found a choir, but it starts at four 30 and that is not conducive to a regular work schedule. Mm-hmm. Yep and so I put my hand up and I said, look, I'm happy to take them. I'll pick them up from school, I'll take them.

[00:35:25] And I just. It kind of makes me really sad about the responses from other parents when they're just like, oh my God. Like, would you honestly like put your, like put your, I'm doing air quotes put yourself out. Yeah. To do that and I just think far out, like as I said, I am in a privileged situation. It is a flexible work environment, but even if it's weekend shit, like, you know, like.

[00:36:18] Victoria Vanstone: I don't know because I think I do. You know what? I definitely think since COVID people are more kind of leaning towards not involving other people in their lives as much. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's definitely something I feel as a parent, and especially when you don't do kindie or mothers groups anymore, it can feel quite isolating.

[00:36:44] Dr Renee White: Someone calls me, I'm like, oh my God, someone's dead.

[00:36:53] So I, I feel really weird being a caller still. Okay. And I think there's, I, I definitely think it's to do with technology is that we are drifting a little bit apart as, as a community and as as individuals. We're sort of like, you know, we are separating a little bit because we do everything online like we are now. Mm-hmm. Instead of sitting and having a coffee together.

[00:37:13] Victoria Vanstone: So I do think it's really important what you say is to try and step in if you see someone struggling instead of going, or maybe they don't want me to be involved. Do you know what you've reminded me of a story of, my mum told me years ago as when a, a friend of hers had died and she went to see the wife.

[00:37:47] And that's something I make sure I do now is to always, no matter how awkward I feel, and no matter how out of the comfort zone or you know, how, you know, stepping out of myself. I will, I would be by contacting that person. Yeah. Yeah. I always do it because I know that it's better to contact them than it is to leave it, because I think now we're like, oh, I don't wanna interrupt them, or I don't wanna get involved, and I don't want them to feel like I'm prying or mm-hmm.

[00:38:30] It's, you know, we feel like we need to stay in control. And that is quite overwhelming and is a lot of weight for one person to carry. And we do carry a lot anyway with work and children and everything else in between. Yeah. And it's just another layer of the responsibility of parents in modern culture where.

[00:39:11] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. And on that point, was there anything, was there anything in your journey that you were like, oh, I'm really hesitant to share that? Or like anything where you were just like, well, I, how is this gonna land with the readers?

[00:39:33] Dr Renee White: oh my God, that's gonna be awesome.

[00:40:19] Dr Renee White: The ink is already dried.

[00:40:31] It was like a diary of my life. Like what was happening in real time. Yeah. I never even considered that I would get a publishing deal and it would go out there into the world. It's quite frightening to think that those things that felt so personal and brutally honest to me, which is the same with my book Mumming.

[00:41:05] I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry that is actually going on behind the scenes. I am a total mess. Even though at the school gates I might look like I have it all together. It is an absolute shit show and you'll know if you read my book. But I must say here, there is a mum that I talk about early in the book who's like this kind of perfect, Lorna Jane, tight, you know, tight buns, hair in a ponytail.

[00:41:51] Dr Renee White: I'd love to know like after, so you know, all these people coming up to you and saying, was that me? I'd like, what Were there, what type of reactions did you get in terms of like, did you have more people reach out to you and go, Hey, you know, can, can I help you?

[00:42:22] Victoria Vanstone: Well, funny, one of the most torturous things are us authors do is to go, which is a really bad habit, is to go and look at reviews and to look at what the critics think.

[00:42:49] Dr Renee White: it's rough.

[00:43:00] Yeah. But I did go on to, I think it was Booktopia or Good Reads in the last week to have a look at some of the reactions, and I was so pleased there wasn't. There wasn't anything under five stars, and most of the women were saying, oh my God, I thought I was the only person that felt like this. Oh, and they were just all so lovely.

[00:43:36] So I wanted to write a book that would appeal to the mums that felt like they're failing. But And to let them know that we are all failing sometimes. Yeah. And that's okay. And especially to the mums that are conscious of their fails and feeling guilty about them. Because I was starting to feel a bit guilty about my shouting and about the way that I parented a lot of time, like having my swear day, which I have once a year with my children.

[00:44:23] Yeah. If you are thinking about your fails, it means you are conscious of them and that you want to do better and that's exactly how I felt. I was conscious of all of these failures and getting things wrong. So I took the time. I took a year. To try and better myself in various different ways, and that's what the book logs is just me trying and trying again, and often failing to try and be a better parent.

[00:45:00] Victoria Vanstone: Rapid fire. I think I am entering perimenopause, so rapid fire is not something I can achieve. It's more like my brain has slowed down slightly.

[00:45:28] Dr Renee White: Oh my God.

[00:45:39] That look like that was supposed to be like kale flavored muffins in the oven that now look like lumps of coal. Just don't let anyone know. No, just put some flour on your face. Yeah. Put that awkward looking kind of bakery apron on. Mm-hmm. And head to school like that. So at least the mums think you are half the mother that you actually are.

[00:46:06] Victoria Vanstone: No butter icing.

[00:46:08] Victoria Vanstone: Everyone knows butter icing is the only way.

[00:46:24] Victoria Vanstone: I think there's one that I used within my journey to, to sobriety and with parenting, which is to play the tape forward, which has always helped me as, in fact, I'm thinking about getting a tattoo about it. Mm-hmm. Is to think about my behavior before I follow through with it. So I'll take a pause, take a moment, think about the responses to my reactions, for example.

[00:47:15] So just a moment, reset. It was the same that I used to have with cravings. Mm-hmm. Play the tape forward. Would it be a good idea to have a drink now? Is it a good idea to shout now? No, it's not. Reset, redefine what I'm gonna do and start again.

[00:47:38] Victoria Vanstone: yeah, I might just get help written on my heart, hand it, put it on it so the other mums can see in the car park. Instead of me having to cry, I am just gonna put my hand up and it just says help. I'm having a bad day. I need Lindt balls.

[00:47:59] Victoria Vanstone: Oh yeah. Love her.

[00:48:03] Victoria Vanstone: I've got a pile of books. I know every mums gonna say this 'cause people send me books. Now there's this thing when you become an author, they think that I know stuff, which I don't

[00:48:15] Victoria Vanstone: Stop sending the books. I love getting them, but they're, the pile is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And the other thing I have on my bedside table is my watch charger, my iWatch. Mm-hmm. Because now I like to, you know, see how long I go on my rage walk for. Mm-hmm. And I think it's getting shorter actually, 'cause my rage seems to dissipate quicker than it used to.

[00:49:00] Dr Renee White: Work in progress.

[00:49:01] Dr Renee White: it has been amazing having you on the podcast and as I started this, you're absolutely hilarious. I love it. I was like, yes. I said crying with laughter as I was reading this. Where can everyone find your book?

[00:49:14] Dr Renee White: Popular

[00:49:31] Come on. Uh, you can, I love it. The audio book, it was recorded last week. I think that's out on the 1st of July. And the ebook you can buy anywhere in the world. So if anyone's listening in a different country, you can download the ebook version of the book and you'll be able to get the audio version in a month.

[00:49:52] Dr Renee White: yeah, well done. I saw that.

[00:50:12] And I think my book Mumming is Ulti ultimately about, you know, unconditional love, which, which seeps out of every cupboard in my house. And I think at the end of the book I say, look, if somebody was to look through my window. They would see chaos and you know, ball bag written on the fridge and a child with their head glue gun to the dining room table.

[00:50:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. And we'll have all of those details about your book in show notes. So

[00:51:09] Dr Renee White: My pleasure. Alright everyone, until next week, see you.