Welcome back to Late Boomers! We’re your hosts, Cathy Worthington and Merry Elkins, and in this episode, we dive deep into the enduring power of World War II stories and the profound impact of personal and family histories across generations. We’re joined by author and speaker Caroline Crocker, whose emotionally rich WWII book series explores themes of resilience, forgiveness, and the miracles of hope that can emerge even in the darkest times.

In this inspiring conversation, Caroline shares her journey of transforming her family’s real-life stories, many rooted in her parents’ experiences in wartime Netherlands, into compelling narratives. We talk about why preserving personal stories matters, how hardship and hope are passed down through families, and the lessons we can all learn from the past.

We also explore:

• The hidden emotional impact of history on families and how trauma can affect future generations
• The process of gathering and documenting family stories with accuracy, empathy, and heart
• Incredible moments of kindness, miracles, and acts of survival that shaped lives and legacies during WWII
• The importance of forgiveness and compassion in healing and moving forward

Key Takeaways

• Preserving Personal Histories: Capturing your family's stories whether through conversation, recordings, or writing is a gift to future generations. As Caroline Crocker explains, these stories shape not only our sense of self but also our ability to empathize and connect with others 31:41.
• Resilience in the Face of Adversity: Stories from WWII highlight the extraordinary strength people can find during unimaginable hardship, reinforcing that resilience and kindness are timeless human traits 06:44.
• Generational Impact: Trauma and hardship don’t just affect those who live through them they shape families for decades. Understanding this can help us be more compassionate with ourselves and others 40:24.
• The Power of Forgiveness: Choosing to forgive, rather than hold onto bitterness, plays a critical role in personal healing and the ability to rebuild a meaningful life 36:42.
• Bringing History Alive: By weaving research with personal accounts, Caroline Crocker reminds us that history is made up of real people, real choices, and unforgettable moments of both tragedy and hope 17:13.

If this episode moved you, we encourage you to start a conversation with your family about their own stories. Record those memories, digitize old tapes, or simply sit down and listen. Visit Caroline Crocker’s website at ramblingruminations.com to learn more about her books and discover resources on preserving your own family history.

Don’t forget to subscribe to the Late Boomers Podcast on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform. Like, comment, and share this episode with someone who would be inspired by Caroline Crocker’s message. Remember, it’s never too late to rethink what’s possible and together, we can keep these vital stories alive for generations to come!

-Cathy and Merry

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In this episode, we explore why stories from the World War II era still matter today and what they teach us about courage, resilience, and the human spirit.

And the hidden emotional impact of history on families, including how the experiences of parents and grandparents can shape future generations.

How our guest transforms real-life experiences into compelling stories that bring history alive through unforgettable characters and personal journeys.

And the miracles, the moments of hope, the acts of kindness that emerged during one of the darkest periods in modern history.

And why preserving family stories and personal histories is one of the greatest gifts we can give future generations. Welcome to the Late Boomers Podcast, where we bring you inspiring stories of people creating new chapters in life with style, power, and impact. I'm Cathy Worthington.

And I'm Merry Elkins. Today we're talking about something that connects all generations: the power of personal stories and the resilience in difficult times, and the lessons we can carry forward from those who lived through extraordinary moments in history.

You know, Merry, as we get older, many of us become more interested in our own family histories. We start asking questions like, where did we come from? What did our parents and grandparents experience? What stories were never told?

Boy, is that true. And sometimes we discover that people closest to us lived through things we never fully understand and may never understand now, but their experiences shaped who they became and how they loved and how they survived, and ultimately how they influenced us.

Today we're diving into the World War II era, a time of incredible hardship, loss, courage, and also extraordinary examples of hope and humanity. Our guest has spent years researching and writing about the personal experiences of people who lived through that period.

And what's fascinating is that our guest doesn't just focus on dates and historical facts. She focuses on the human stories, The choices people made, the suffering that they endured, the miracles that they experienced, and the resilience that they found.

I think it's especially meaningful for the Late Boomers audience because many of us grew up hearing stories from parents, grandparents, or relatives who lived through World War II, the Depression, or other challenging times. Sometimes those stories weren't shared until much later, and sometimes they were never shared at all.

And there's so much wisdom in those stories. They remind us that people can survive unimaginable circumstances and still rebuild their lives, still find love, hope, purpose, everything.

And our guest today is Caroline— Caroline, excuse me— Caroline Crocker. She is an author and speaker whose World War II series explores the diverse ways individuals responded to suffering, trauma, and uncertainty. This— we're going to be talking about her 3rd book in her series, which is called The Truth Was Different. Her writing brings history alive through deeply personal stories, and she shares her reflections at ramblingruminations.com.

Caroline, welcome, welcome to Late Boomers. We're happy to have you with us.

Thank you, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Carolyn, you've spoken internationally about your World War II series of books. What originally drew you to this period in history, and what personal stories from that era continue to stay with you?

You know, um, it's a very obvious reason that I started to do this, and that was because my parents came from the Netherlands and they lived through World War II. And so, um, when, uh, when my father passed away, I wanted to distract my mother from her grief because, you know, sometimes distraction isn't a bad thing. So what I did was I wrote down all the funny stories she told me about her childhood. And, um, then I showed her what I'd written and I said, hey mom, do you think this would make a book? And she said, well, you forgot most of it. And I said, mom, you never told me the rest. So, so then over the next 5 years, um, we talked about the rest and, um, about the, the stories that you wouldn't tell a child. And, um, I—

Mm-hmm.

As the more we talked, the more she remembered, of course. And the more I painted the picture of her childhood home, the more she could see the people in the house. And so that really helped with making the story come alive. Because, you know, I could ask her, hey, Mom, you know, when your dad was stressed out, what did he do? Well, he swore. And he pounded his, his, his hand on the table. And it made the table jump. And I didn't like it because the top of the table was only at my nose.

Oh, no.

Or what did your mom do? Well, she said she was gonna go throw herself in the ocean. And I thought, wow, that was a little traumatic, but okay.

Yeah.

So she told me, you know, the stories of her growing up. And, um, and I did a lot of research then to figure out, okay, cause she was only 5 when the war began. So, you know, what was she actually talking about in this story or in that one? Um, and so I was able to look it up and see, okay. this was when this would have happened, and this is what was happening historically. And so I was able to put everything in order and make it pretty much a historical document, apart from the fact that there's dialogue in it.

Um, well, what a wonderful way for you to get closer to your mother too. That's—

yeah, discovered a lot about her, I'll tell you that.

Well, but that's so nice for you. So your books explore how different individuals respond to intense suffering and hardship. What do you think modern readers can learn from the way people coped with war and loss, fear and trauma?

Well, I mean, unfortunately, life is difficult for everybody. Everybody suffers. You know, it's just, I don't think anybody has a, you know, a seamless ride through life. It's always difficult. And so to see how other people did it and what, you know, and what they found helpful in that may be helpful for them. You know, for example, my dad, he had a very traumatic childhood. I had to take breaks writing the book about him. It's called Unforgivable.

And it was just, it was devastating. You know, he He was, uh, he was born to a mother who didn't want him or his brother. Um, and then his father became ill. And, uh, so his mother dropped him and his brother off at a children's home when he was only 5 and his brother was 2. And, um, well, they, she didn't have the money to pay for them. So my dad had to work for their living. So he was, you know, he was kind of like the little—

Oh.

you know, I don't know, the busboy. He had to do it all. He had to, um, you know, empty the trash and clean the shoes and pick up the sticks and, and, uh, you know, to earn a living for him and his brother. Um, what his mother may not have realized was that this place was also abusive.

Yeah.

And so on the COVID of Unforgivable, when you see that cover, you'll see that Dad had a black eye. Um, and in fact, I couldn't find any pictures of him as a little guy. Where he didn't have a black eye.

Oh my gosh.

And, uh, so, you know, so he was then dealing with abandonment and abuse. And, um, well, then the war began, so let's add that into the trauma. Um, you know, he had to go pick up sticks in the woods where the German soldiers were hanging out. And, um, you know, at one point a German soldier told him to go and buy bread and gave him money for them.

For them.

Yep. Because the villagers wouldn't sell bread to the Germans. So my brother, my dad went and got, you know, tried to get bread. And the, uh, the baker said, well, I'm not giving bread to him. And so dad had to go back to this German soldier, you know, thinking he was probably going to be shot. And, you know, how traumatic as it was, the German soldier told him that he doesn't shoot, um, He only shoots cowards. So Dad was okay. But, you know, still, it was a very traumatic thing to have happened to him.

Yeah.

Yeah, he had to grow up so fast and be so brave. And really, yeah, kids today maybe can't even relate to that.

But— Unless you're in the Ukraine or Gaza or any place in the world.

Oh, yeah.

Um, you know, and oh yeah, they see people being murdered and, you know, it's, you know, and in some of our inner cities, people, you know, kids see that kind of thing or, you know, I mean, they may live in an abusive home. Uh, you know, unfortunately these things do continue to happen.

Right. Well, one of the things that really stands out in your work is the presence of miracles and moments of hope. So can you share one miracle or extraordinary event from your books that brings you the most joy?

You know, one is, you know, is it a miracle? I don't know, but it's kind of miraculous. And that is, um, on the very first day of the war, um, my mother's mother, so that's my grandmother's best friend, um, her house was bombed.

Hmm.

The, the Germans bombed the entire coastline and they got her house. And, um, A shell fragment went into her baby's brain.

Oh.

So she picked up her baby's body and she brought him to my grandmother's house, and she wouldn't let him go for 3 days. So it was, you know, very traumatic. This woman's name was Vera. And so then I don't know any more about Vera except for then my grandmother became pregnant and gave birth to a baby during the last year of the war. Well, at that point, there was no food in that part of the Netherlands, so they were starving. She gave birth 2 months early, and she had no milk. But also, the Germans had barricaded, so there was no food in the shops either. So even though she was given, you know, sort of ration coupons for Uh, for milk, there wasn't any milk.

There was no food at all.

Hmm.

And so she brought her baby home, um, and just gave him water because that's all there was. And she couldn't even boil it because they didn't have any fuel either. And, um, well, Vera heard that her best friend had had a baby, um, just a couple days after, um, he was born, the baby was born. The Allies got a map upside down, and they mistakenly bombed the Bezuidenhout neighborhood in The Hague. That's where she was living then, and when they did that, it killed her new baby.

Oh!

So this is her second son, also dead. Well, she heard that her best friend had had a baby, Vera did, so she walked around to her best friend's house, And she went up the stairs, and as she did, she heard the baby, who is my uncle, crying. And, um, she went upstairs, she opened her blouse, and she nursed him.

Oh.

And to me, you know, having lost 2 babies herself, to nurse her best friend's baby is miraculous. That's just mind-blowing to me. And then she did that every day. Even though it was cold and she also had no food, um, once a day she would come and nurse my uncle. And, uh, the thing, one of the things that I think is really cool about this is he didn't know, um, until I, till the book was published, my uncle didn't know why he was alive, that it was this lady Vera, whose last name I don't know.

Because his mother never told him that.

His mother never told him.

Oh, that would have been such a beautiful thing to tell your son.

Yeah.

I mean, my friend saved you. I'm so moved by that story. And I was about to ask you if there was a particular story that changed you personally. I don't know if this is the story you'd tell or if you have another one you'd like to tell, because that is so touching.

Huh. Let me see.

So, you know, there's Unforgettable.

Yeah, there's one that has had a big impact on me. Um, is it negative? Is it positive? I don't know. Maybe it's just being grateful for what I have. And that is that halfway through the war, the Nazis came to the home where my dad was. Okay, so this is in the book Unforgivable. And they separated the Jewish from the non-Jewish children. Now, Dad had a Jewish mother, um, and so according to the Nuremberg Laws, he was Jewish enough. Now, a Jewish person would say he wasn't Jewish because it was— well, her— it was— came from her father.

So, but anyway, um, but he was according to the Nuremberg Laws. But for some reason, they didn't take my dad and his brother.

Hmm.

But they did take his cousins and they took his friends, and they took one friend who taught Dad to play the piano, a girl called Keetje van Zanten. And, um, and they sent the kids who were not taken into a room as they took the Jewish kids off. And Keetje escaped from the room where she was and ran and threw her arms around my father and said, Fritz, Fritz, save me!

Oh my God.

And he said, what can I do? And then one of the nurses took Keetje away, and, um, you know, and she was taken to Auschwitz where she died.

Oh.

And, um, the thing is, Keetje taught my dad how to play the piano, and Dad taught me. And I'm like, that is so cool, you know? I mean, it's almost like Keetje taught me. And my dad actually didn't tell that story until he was in his mid-60s. It was far too painful for him. Um, but when I did the research, um, for Unforgivable, I looked up Keitje and I looked up her family to see, well, is there anybody who is still alive? Anybody who I could, you know, send a copy of this book to? No, they were all murdered. Every one of them. There's nobody in her family alive. Nobody to remember her.

Except there's a whole lot of people who know about her now. And I'm like, it doesn't bring her back, but she is definitely remembered.

Oh, that is her power. That is powerful.

And it gives her a fabulous legacy. The music, the music tradition.

It does.

And her legacy—

I mean, everybody dies eventually. I would prefer she had not died so young, but I mean, by now she would have been gone anyway, right? But she's remembered.

Well, it's interesting because Jewish heritage is often not preserved because of World War II. Yeah. And so it is quite possible that maybe there are people there somewhere that you don't know about because it wasn't recorded at the time or it was destroyed.

I mean, I've, I've looked, but, uh, you know, it, it looked like her whole family was gone. But, you know, maybe there is somebody somewhere. Yeah.

Well, you know, you combine historical truth with storytelling that feels like fiction. So how do you balance accuracy and research with creating an emotional connection for the reader?

Ah, so, well, I tried very hard to make sure everything is accurate. I do a lot, a lot of research. So much research. I mean, the last, the book I'm working on now, I've been doing 2 years nonstop research, you know, and then I wrote it and then I was like, oh, I found out this. Oh, now I found out this. Start again.

Oh.

So it's, it's very important to me to get it right. But obviously if I just was to spat out the dry facts, it's kind of boring. So what I do is instead of just giving you the facts, I create the, the, um, the incident in words. So I, I, you know, try and, and put the reader into the situation. And, you know, obviously the dialogue is made up.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I try as hard as I can to make the dialogue true to the way that person spoke. Uh, there are some people where I don't know how they spoke, but I can guess. For example, my grandmother, I didn't know her, my dad's mother, and that's the one that The Truth Was Different is about. Um, and the reason I wrote the book was because, uh, people who read Unforgivable most often say, what was wrong with his mother?

Hmm.

I want to know. And so I did a lot of research into this lady. Um, and, um, she actually wrote an autobiography where she changed all the names and all the places and lots of details. So that required a lot of research to untangle all that and find out who she really was talking about. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Um, and it also was challenging because, well, the book wasn't in English.

Oh, oh yeah.

So I was like, oh my gosh, this is so hard. But—

Was it in Dutch or German?

Dutch?

Yeah. Can you read Dutch or do you speak it?

Not well. But, you know, it takes a while. Um, but yeah, I did. She actually wrote 5 books, but only one of them she said was true. But as I read the others, I was like, oh no, there's truth in a lot of these. Anyway, the way I could figure out—

So she switches all the names and then you go in and try and switch them back?

Oh, I did.

I did. That is murder.

It's like, yeah. So, so we're, we're— so some of your characters in your World War II series were based on real people. But were any based just on composites or family memories? And also, how did you bring the personalities and emotions to life when you were writing about people maybe that you've never met?

Okay, well, so yes, there— are there any? Yeah, there is. There is my dad's best friend in the orphanage. I, um, I, I called him Trouble. Um, as far as I know, there wasn't a child called Trouble, but I know my dad's personality. And so I can imagine him getting into trouble and doing devious things. And so to have a partner in crime, I didn't think that was all that terrible to put that in. And I do actually put that at the beginning of every book where, okay, this is as true as I can make it. And none of the major incidents in that book, they all happened, the major incidents.

It's just that there are some details where I just had to make up the dialogue. So yeah, I forgot what you asked. I'm sorry.

Oh, just how you brought the personalities and emotions to life if you'd never met these people.

Ah, right.

Yeah.

Well, sometimes, for example, with my grandmother, um, the person in The Truth Was Different, um, I could read it because she wrote about herself. Um, she, in, in all of her books except one, she said they were fiction. But when I saw in many books the same incidents being described again and again and again, I was like, that's not fiction, that happened.

Yeah.

And so I was able to get her voice from that. The other thing is that, um, as I read about her, I realized, oh my gosh, she's the one I take after. And so that wasn't too hard either because I could think, oh, she would react the way I would.

Wow.

Except for I'm not as damaged a person as her, but You know, in what way would you say? Well, so getting impatient with people, not suffering fools gladly, things like that. I'm like, oh, that's just like me, you know.

And it— but you shared that many of your members of your family were not sent to concentration camps, but your parents, aunts, uncles, and grandparents experienced tremendous suffering during World War II, and you mentioned about the food and all that. So how has that history affected you personally?

Oh yeah, it has. So the, the, the last year of the war, the Allies asked the Dutch people to have their railways go on strike so that the Germans wouldn't be able to Um, bring in more munitions or food, you know, so they would be cut off.

Wow.

And the Dutch did that. Well, the Germans retaliated by cutting off transport of all food, um, and, uh, fuel to that side of the country. Unfortunately, by the time they realized that was actually harming their own soldiers, you'd think they would've figured that out, but by the time they realized that, Um, the, the one of the coldest winters on record had set in. Um, most of the bridges had by then been bombed, the canals were frozen, and there was no way to get food or fuel to that area of the country. And, um, and so the people starved, and 20,000 people dropped dead of starvation.

Oh.

Um, and, uh, yeah, that's affected me. I mean, it even affects me now, um, because my mother, who had no food growing up, um, she still stores food in her bedroom. She lives with me. I mean, that's not a big trauma. I'm just saying it does actually affect me. Um, you know, if there is food left over from a meal, she will put that tablespoon in the fridge.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, if I want to throw it away, I need to do it when she's not looking.

stressed before.

Um, you know, I get it.

It's also been interesting as I heard her talk about it because she kept repeating, um, we were not of strategic importance, we were not of strategic importance. And I said, Mom, what do you mean? And she said, well, the Allies liberated some of the Netherlands, but they needed to march straight to Germany to win the war. So they didn't liberate us.

Oh.

And so they spent that winter starving. Um, her sister got tuberculosis. A lot of people died. Um, 2 years after the end of the war, when the Dutch government sent people from school to school to see who would live and who would die, who was worth feeding, when they looked at my mom, they said, it's not worth feeding her. She's gonna die anyway. And, um, she didn't like that idea, so she blew her cheeks up, show how fat she is. And because of that, they sent her for extra food, and that's why she's 91.

Oh, smart, smart mom.

That's right. But the whole not of strategic importance thing, I couldn't figure out why, you know, what, what was that all about? And what I realized was that at the tender age of 9, she had taken it into herself. You are not important. You are so unimportant that you don't even deserve food.

Oh, heartbreaking.

That's where some of her stranger behaviors come from. You know, she, she really would like to have a lot of attention. She tells you how wonderful she is.

It's—

and I'm like, where does that come from? And then I realized, oh, she has a massive inferiority complex. Yeah, because she was told at 9, you're not even important enough to deserve food.

Yeah, or live.

Oh yeah.

Well, were there stories that you wrote that were really difficult to write, and others that perhaps, other than the one that you told us about the mother and her milk that really reminded you of the goodness that does exist in the world even during awful times?

Yeah. I mean, yeah. A good one is another miracle that happened in Brave Face, and that was where my mother's eldest sister got tuberculosis during the Hunger Winter and she didn't recover. Of course, there was still very, very little food. And at one point, the germs got into her throat and began swelling so that she could no longer swallow, she could no longer breathe. And the doctor came and he said, well, I could do surgery and then she would die, or I could just leave her and she'll die in a week. So your choice. And my grandmother and grandfather took all the money they had, And they got up at 4 in the morning and they walked to a famous healer who was operating in those days.

And they asked her, um, they, they got to the front of the line and she said to them, go home, your daughter's well. And they said, well, no, we have this money and we have this photograph. And she said, no, just go home, she's fine.

Wow.

And, um, and so they turned around and went home and were talking on the way that, you know, of course Corey would die. Um, and when they got home, Corey was walking to the bathroom holding on to the wall. And after that, Corey got better, and she did actually get married. She had 2 kids, and she died in her 80s. So, um, so, you know, so that's a very encouraging story.

Yeah. Were there some that were more difficult to write?

Oh yeah, many, many. Actually, the one— the book I'm writing now, um, well, I'm just editing it now, but that has been very, very difficult, um, because my grandmother went through every kind of trauma there is. Um, you know, she, she was widowed, she— her fiancé was arrested, um, he was in the resistance and shot.

Oh.

And, um, yeah, just, just every trauma there is. I mean, I'm just like, I don't even know. And then of course she was misjudged because she did put my father and his brother in a children's home, and people misjudged her because they were, you know, why did you do that? And instead of realizing, oh, she actually has to work, she can't take care of 2 small children because she has to work to take care of her husband who's dying, she has to pay for his medical bills.

Mm-hmm.

And so I was just really struck by the trauma that she went through, and a lot of it she described very, very well. For example, there was, again, doing research and looking and using my scientific training, it has been, it was very interesting to read what she wrote, for example, about her husband dying.

Mm-hmm.

Where she wasn't there when it happened, but she quizzed her sister-in-law who was, and her sister-in-law described all the things that happened and what he was saying as he was dying. Well, the man had myasthenia gravis. That is an autoimmune disorder where you gradually lose control of your muscles. And you die when your diaphragm stops working and you suffocate to death. Now, how likely is it that you would be talking?

Not at all likely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so she was, so I was just fascinated as she, she clearly didn't put 2 and 2 together, but I did. Um, as she talked about how the doctor came because he wasn't feeling well and And said, well, I've done everything I can now. And then he left. And then the man was, um, was talking and, um, said he felt very, very tired. And then he began to sweat, and then he died. And I was like, oh my gosh, my grandfather was murdered!

Oh yeah.

So it's things like that where it just— yeah. And so to, you know, I mean, that was, it was hard to realize. And my grandmother never knew. And if he had not been murdered, medicine for that disease was not that long in the future. In other words, my dad could have had a father growing up.

Yeah. Hmm. Okay. So, well, maybe Yeah, well, these are heavy subjects. I agree. Yeah, it's hard. You know, on a different subject a little bit, many people today are interested in preserving their family history. So what advice would you give someone who wants to capture the stories of their parents or grandparents before they are lost?

Yeah, you need to talk to them. I mean, you can ask them to read You could put on a tape recorder. Uh, you know, I mean, that's one way.

Um, record everything.

Yeah, record it. I mean, with my dad, he was gone before I wrote his story. And, um, so I had to find it other ways. And, and that was, it was quite amazing in that my mother had letters that his father had written him, um, which is another way I knew that the man was not dying of myasthenia gravis. I mean, that he was murdered because he wrote him a letter 2 days before he died. I was like, I don't think so. Um, but, uh, yeah, so he, yes. So I had those letters and then I also had something that his brother had written, 15 pages.

And, um, somebody who was in the children's home with my father, um, was still alive. And so I was able to find out information from them. Um, the place where the children's home was, this place called Drie Berget, there was a historian there who actually bicycled around from place to place to find information for me. So yeah, I just got the information from all over the place. It was very interesting.

Super.

Yeah, super.

So yeah, I mean, if you were gonna do it, you have to do a lot of digging if you want to do it that accurately.

Yeah, that's—

or you could just record their stories. And write those down and just say this is what they recall.

You could.

As soon as you can, because—

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, I did some of that with my dad, and I have a recording, and it's so nice to— when I play it, which is rare, but when I do play it, I hear his voice.

And, and Merry, did you digitize it?

No, but I should.

Everything needs to be digitized or it'll be all lost.

Yeah, and probably, I hope, still there because it's been a while.

Yeah.

But, you know, I had some of it. But you write about resilience, Carolyn, and something many people in our Late Boomers audience have experienced in different ways, that, and had quite a few problems that they've had to recover from. So, what qualities did you see in the people you studied that helped them survive and move forward?

Well, it's been interesting to see the different ways people coped, you know. I mean, you know, Mom coped by— I mean, she's a talker, you know, so she talks a lot. Um, and she had a very loving family, so even though she starved, she had that basic love undergirding her, and I think that's why she Um, she did all right, although there's very obvious PTSD going on in a lot of ways. Like, she's terrified of fire because she saw a building burn down and the Nazis not let people leave. You know, there's things like that where I'm like, okay, I can see, I can see the, you know, the, the problems from that. Um, Mm-hmm. You know, some problems you just live with. It's just, they come with you.

Um, Dad, I did wonder because He, all his life, um, said to me that he's unforgivable because he was. And I wondered where that came from. And then I realized when I found out about the abuse from what his brother had written, because his brother described how he was thrown against walls, I was like, ah, now I know why he thought he was unforgivable, because people who are abused think they deserve it. Um, but actually what was done to him was unforgivable. What happened in his life was unforgivable. And I thought, well then how did he turn out to be a good man?

Yeah.

And, um, I realized that he, when I was growing up, always said to me, Carolyn, you need to forgive. You need to forgive. Now, Dad was not a believer, but he was very strong on you have to forgive.

Hmm.

And, um, I never heard him say a bad word about those women who threw him against walls. I never heard him say a bad word. Against, um, like, well, the Germans. Yeah, he did. It was actually rather funny. We were walking in, um, in the Netherlands. He was talking. He said, well, you know, I forgive people and, and, you know, it's— I don't, you know, it's not their fault and I, I forgive them.

And, you know, the Germans are nice people. And then there was a group of Germans who walked past us. And Dad says, but I don't know why they have to speak that godforsaken language. And I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, right.

You forgive?

So, you know, he did as much as he could.

You have spent so much time immersed in stories of war and hardship. So what have you learned about forgiveness, compassion, and the ability of people to rebuild their lives?

You know, I think it's really important to forgive. I really do. The book I'm writing right now, The Truth Was Different, Which will be out in November. That was something she did not do.

She did not forgive.

She did not forgive, and she turned out to be a very bitter woman who rejected her sons to the end. And it's just such a sad story. This was something that she chose. She chose to close down emotionally. She actually records that choice of I'm going to shut down emotionally. And she couldn't love and she didn't forgive. And that's really sad. Um, and especially I'm comparing it to her brother's story.

Now, her brother, that'll be, I think, the book I write after this, but I haven't got it on my website yet. Um, but my, her, their, his daughters have asked me to write it. So I'm like, oh yeah, I want to write that. Um, he actually went to Auschwitz. His wife and his children and he were all sent to Auschwitz. His wife and kids were all killed.

Oh.

He came out and he was a very, very broken man, as you can imagine. He was an alcoholic, he was, you know, he had a temper, he was just messed up. His first marriage after that ended in divorce, but his second marriage, his His mother-in-law was a believer, and she told him that he needed to forgive. She also told him the only way you can forgive is through Jesus. And, um, and he did.

Wow.

You know, I mean, I'm not saying that he was a perfect man after that. No, he wasn't. But he was more functional. Right.

You know, when you can't forgive, it just eats up your insides. It eats up everything about you. It just makes you so, so unhappy. Like, you suffer way more than the person you didn't forgive.

Well, yeah, that's true.

They don't care at all, do they?

They don't care at all.

Yeah.

And, and all it does is destroy you rather than destroy the person that you can't forgive. And, and I, I think you might have just answered this question I have for you, which is, what do you hope readers take away from your World War II series? And beyond learning about history, and what do you hope they, they feel or understand more, maybe about themselves or the world?

Yeah, I think it's really important that people understand that war affects everybody. Um, you know, I mean, so far I haven't written about anybody who actually went through the Holocaust. They just lived through war. And I think that's something that that we need to be aware of is that war actually affects everybody. And also that people have damage that doesn't always show. And so to be gentle and patient with them.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I mean, there were many times when I would get annoyed with my parents, but now I'm like, oh, that's why they acted like they did. You know, they were damaged. Because of what they went through, and they passed on the damage to their kids. And, you know, until people are actually aware of it, it doesn't go away.

Well, I've heard that often, even when you don't know the people or haven't ever met them, that damage can be passed on through generations.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Generational trauma, don't they call that?

Yeah, well, they actually say that the children of people who went through the Hunger Winter have much higher rates of anxiety, diabetes, and obesity. And I'm like, hmm, that's interesting because I'm one of 5 kids. We all deal with anxiety, and I'm the only one in the family who does not have diabetes.

Wow.

Yeah. Well, a lot of our listeners are entering a stage of life where legacy becomes more important. Like, you're really thinking about it. So how can we make sure the lessons and stories from our generation are passed down to those who come after us?

It's not easy, I'll tell you, because I mean, I've written these books, but I don't think any of my kids have read them. That's Fairly normal.

You're their mother.

That's right. It's fairly normal with authors that, yeah, you know, but other people's families read them. And so maybe my kids will read the books that other parents do, you know, and I guess someday, someday they'll read them. Doesn't matter, does it, if it's me or somebody else, um, you know, that they learn from? It's fine.

Yeah.

But we do need to think about passing those stories down, the ones we have lived.

I, you know, I think we do. And I know that I tell my— I used to tell my children the stories of, you know, my childhood and, you know, the funny ones. And I actually tell my grandkids the stories of my childhood and I tell my grandkids the stories of my kids' childhood and they love it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I mean, in my childhood, well, I grew up in Canada during the '60s, so it was very different.

Oh yeah.

And I can talk to them about, you know, the time when there was a wolf in the backyard and, you know, and how I didn't listen to my mom when she told me to come in and, you know, things like this, you know, all these stories that they would not hear because, you know, and they're from my childhood. So, yeah.

Yeah, they will never forget them though. So, looking at the world today, Carolyn, with so much insanity and uncertainty and division, what lessons from World War II and that generation do you think we need to most remember?

Yeah, kind of hesitant to get political, but I will say that I am very aware that my mom, her mother was German, that my German relatives said they knew. They knew what was happening, but it was kill or be killed. They were saving their own skin.

Hmm.

And I think, can I blame them? Because there are things that I see or that I am aware of happening around me, and have I done anything about it?

Hmm.

And that, that bothers me. It really does. I mean, I, I guess I would say no, I haven't. I mean, you know, I know that there, you know, it to some degree, I think, oh well, I'm all right, I'm white. But you know what? There are people who aren't. And so I, you know, this is something that bothers me and I guess I haven't done anything about it. Um, I get that.

Maybe you're writing your books.

I totally—

That's doing a lot. That's doing what you can do.

Well, and I think that's it, isn't it? I mean, we can only do what we can do. I certainly would not be a good politician. I would be a cruddy politician. Yeah, I can be an author. I can do that. I can write my books. And people do read them and they do think about it.

Um, and where should our listeners look for you and find you online?

Okay. So I have a website. Um, my son told me that's what I should call it because I never stick to one topic. Um, it's called Rambling Ruminations.

Yeah. I thought that was pretty clever.

Yeah.

It's, uh, https://ramblingruminations.com. /ramblingruminations. And there you will actually find, um, not only my World War II books, but you'll also find books about my dog. Um, there are books and books about my childhood growing up in Canada and some nonfiction books as well. Well, I guess they're all nonfiction, kind of.

Well, well, excellent. Thank you, Carolyn. Thank you for, for joining us today because your work reminds us that history is not just about events, it's about people. It's about courage, choices, love, survival, and the stories that shape who we become.

Yes, and we hope this conversation inspires our listeners to think about their own family stories and the wisdom that exists within the generations before us.

To our Late Boomers audience, thank you for spending this time with us. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who would appreciate Carolyn's message.

Yes, and please subscribe to our Late Boomers, uh, podcast on YouTube, like this episode, and follow us wherever you get our— your podcasts. Remember what we late boomers always say, it's never too late to to rethink what's possible. Thank you, Carolyn. Well, thank you. Great to have you.

Thank you.