Corporate gives you an easy identity: your title, your company, your lane. But once you start building something outside corporate—consulting, fractional, content, a book, a business—that identity disappears fast. And that’s where most people get stuck.

In this episode, Brett sits down with Catherine Jelinek, founder of The Skinny Platform, to talk about the shift from being “defined by your role” to being known for your thinking, your story, and the outcomes you create.

Catherine shares why so many high-performing corporate pros struggle in the “formless” world outside corporate, how to create structure without recreating corporate, and why the fastest way to clarify your thought leadership is often talking it out—not trying to write it alone. They also get into “skinny books” (short, high-impact nonfiction) and how to use AI and conversation-based drafts to accelerate publishing and content creation.

What You’ll Learn

• Why corporate identity feels safe—even when corporate is miserable

• How to replace “job title identity” with outcome-based positioning

• Catherine’s framework for navigating change: Forming → Storming → Norming → Performing

• How Brett created structure outside corporate (without turning life into a calendar prison)

• Why most people can’t “see” their own differentiators—and how a mirror helps

• Why conversation + transcripts can be the fastest path to content (and even a book)

• The “skinny book” approach: short, readable, practical nonfiction that people actually finish

• How to use AI to generate multiple story arcs and content angles—without losing your voice

Key Takeaways

• You don’t need to reinvent yourself. You need to reframe yourself.

• Progress outside corporate isn’t linear—so you need your own way to measure wins.

• If you want thought leadership, stop trying to “perfect-write” it. Talk it out first.

• Your story isn’t just for a book. It can power your LinkedIn, website, offers, and messaging.

About Catherine Jelinek

Catherine is the founder of The Skinny Platform, an alternative to ghostwriting for entrepreneurs and thought leaders. The Skinny Platform helps people clarify their story, shape it into a compelling narrative, and turn it into a short, high-impact book—faster than the traditional publishing process.

Connect with Catherine

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjelinek/

• Email: catherine@theskinnyplatform.com

• Websites: theskinnyplatform.com

Yes, sounds perfect.

Hi, Catherine, welcome to the Corporate Escapee Podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Brett. I really appreciate it.

I'm excited. And again, it's, we usually like to share an escapee journey before we start, but you're one of the few folks I've had on the podcast that actually doesn't have an escapee, which is not a bad thing. I think this is a good thing because we can learn from you, right? That we don't have to transition to full entrepreneurial to, break out of these, you know, corporate confines that we've been in. So I really want to get into that. How do we transition from, cause again, in corporate

that we were defined by our job titles and the companies that we worked for, right? And when you go solo, it's more about who you are, your thought leadership, the problems that you solve, the outcomes you provide. That's kind of a hard right turn for some of us. And it took me a long time to figure out and you can argue I'm still trying to figure it out. So that's what I really want to dig in with you today. So maybe to kick us off, just share a little bit about your background, what you're working on, and we'll get into it.

Absolutely.

Yeah, well first I probably will empathize and actually relate. I went to school for public policy and think, I think I thought I was going to be in like the bureaucracy of large organizations and thought that's where I wanted to belong. And then even my first job after college was at the university that I went to school and it was a place where I was helping create business incubators throughout the state of Michigan. I loved that work, but still the university itself was

it's maybe not corporate, but it was certainly bureaucratic. And I wasn't allowed to maybe have like the title that I was working as like a project manager at the time, but there wasn't five years of experience in a master's degree. And some of that frustrated me because I was in the right rooms with the same people, but not allowed to have the conference of that title. And I'd relate to that, like, even if I have from there on taken a more non-traditional path, it's not.

I have sometimes grieved the ease of identity assurance, you know, and had to like figure it out. I love to like march up things. do jujitsu on the side, probably because that kind of fills that bucket for me. You get stripes, you win or you lose. There's measured progress. And then in the entrepreneurial world, it's weird and things can change on a dime. Big progress and then big change and who knows what you are.

Yeah.

I just want to recognize that there's a part of me that really wanted that and it didn't happen.

Yeah, before we go past that, because I think that's a really interesting point because that is absolutely something we had in corporate, right? Even if we're miserable, there's structure. It's comfortable. know because your calendar or your schedule is 90 % dictated to you. What you're going to be working on.

Yes.

what meetings you need to be in these times. If you go up the food chain, there's some flexibility, but for the most part, it's working on that. So I absolutely get the structure, but we miss the ability to work on what we want to work on, what's exciting to us, these types of things. So in hindsight, if I had to do it over, I would flip it and find a something outside of work to give me that structure, because I completely understand what you're saying. But.

Yeah.

Trust me, you didn't miss much.

Okay, thanks. Yes. Well, I mean, like, I have a friend who's a therapist and she loves like the Enneagram work and I'm not sure if you or your listeners know that and she's identified me as like a three, which is the achiever, which means I actually do. My fuel is measured progress and marks of recognition and success that others can see. And she can see how I sometimes torture myself being in a formless realm for work. But then she's acknowledged like

For those of you who are like that, like me, it is so important to have the jujitsu on the side and other things where you are filling some of that tank sometimes when the other thing is not right there yet, you know?

Yeah. And again, I'm already taking us down to rabbit hole and we haven't even got started yet, but I think, but I think that that part's important because the one of the things that I've learned is when you get to celebrate the small successes. So as, as I left corporate and went solo, it's very easy to just get lost in everything. And you know, you're making, you think you're making progress, but you don't always know. And it wasn't until I started to put in again, that's there's no quarterly reviews, those types of things.

Yeah, I like it.

But kind of on a monthly basis, I had a couple of key objects. long-term, here's where I want to be and work back. And it's not the superstructure 20 page document, but all right, here's the four things. So this month, here's what I'm working on. Here's the two things that I really need to get accomplished. And that really worked for me because if I can check those boxes, and even if I started to go down on a daily basis that I know the night before, like today,

I knew we were going be on the podcast. I had two other things and I wanted to get, you know, the next draft of my newsletter done. And what was the other thing I had? Oh, the community update. And so now I'm like, all right, I did that. And so it just, I never even thought about it. The first two years I was out of corporate, but then it started to realize working with others that they, didn't have that same thing you're talking about. Am I making progress? A hundred percent you are. And you just got to set it up where you can track and see.

It's there. It's not linear, but there's absolutely ways you can see if you're on schedule ahead of schedule or whatever.

Yes, well, what you're talking to there is just like, you don't have to work against your wiring. And if you're a person who feels better when you know that you're making progress towards something like you've done creating your own flow, where you can track that progress and feel accomplished, and know that you've got the set path, even if things take a different shape than you might have set it out to. But I think it's just creating those spaces where that itch gets scratched.

Yeah.

And we're not like trying to remake ourselves overnight. That's perfectly fine. You know, we don't have to feel like it's wrong to think that some outside validation and recognition is bad or checking boxes and feeling productive is bad. It's not. Even if you're trying to balance it more.

Yeah.

And finding what does that look like for you because when I first left, we're talking about sketch corporate, everything's dictated to you like 80, 90 % schedule, what you're working on, types of things. And then when you have all that free time, when you're on your own, all of a sudden,

I don't say it was overwhelming, but I was a hell of a lot busier and I wasn't getting anything done because there was no structure to what I was doing. I didn't prioritize anything. So at the end of the week, I was working 50 hours, but what was I doing? so...

Then I over index the other way and everything down to a half hour was scheduled. Do this, this. I'm like, my God, this is worse than corporate. So eventually I stumbled on some time blocks that really work. know when my productive hours are, this is when I really want to get my key things done. If I get these things done in this two hour window, I've had a good day, right? And then it kind of adds. So I think what you're leading us down.

That's awesome.

points we hadn't talked about, but I think it's super important that we rarely talk about these.

That's good. I think what you're hitting on is when any of us change significantly, you're not necessarily going to nail it. It reminds me of even Tuckman's theory of group dynamics, but this is like with yourself processing change. There's like forming, storming, norming, and performing. And you do have to just go through storming, and it's OK. And sometimes if you just recognize storming will be a part of this path of change, it's not as bad.

We're dealing with change and we're human creatures that love certainty. So it's going to be a part of it. No, not this Tuckman. Tuckman's theory of group dynamics and he's always relating it to when a new group forms. But I find that it's something that happens even when we're going through an individual change and there's like, it happens with a lot of things. It's forming, storming, norming and performing. Forming is like,

Yeah, what were those again? I'm going to use I'll give you credit. know you. Okay.

I love that.

yeah, this is great. I'm excited. There's new energy. Sweet. The possibilities are endless. Storming is like all the friction shows up. It's like, shit, you do that like this? this is what this means? no, I don't like this at all. Overcorrection. And then norming is like, okay, I can find my groove. I know what I need to do and I don't do. Okay, fine. I can figure this out. I can reconcile with that. And then performing is like, okay, this works for me. You know, I'm really thriving now.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I mean, I like that just as a mini framework to think through, right? Cause I was thinking, I like to chase shiny objects and do I go down this path to do these things? And this may be a good short-term framework to say, all right, I don't have to go all in on these things, but I can go through this process and evaluate does it. And there may be, there's a different version of this, but I, I don't know. kind of figure out how I can use that, but I do, I think, or maybe I got some light reading to do after this to see where he was going with it, but.

Yeah.

I think it's just helpful for us all to just realize it's okay to go through storming. If you go through the friction after change, it's normal. You will face it. You will overcorrect, and then that's a part of the process.

And if there's no friction, it may not be worth going down that path because, right? Maybe, maybe you've discovered something that nobody else had, but it's, uh, yeah, I think just think that's a good way to think about that. All right. I've done derailing. what tell us about what you're, what you're working on now, because that's how we got connected.

It's too similar to what you did.

Nya!

sure. My work, my current work. Yes, my current work is a startup called the Skinny Platform, and it's an alternative to ghost writing for entrepreneurs and thought leaders. But most of all, what we're learning about the authors that we work with, usually one, they are not necessarily meant to write the book by themselves. There's some of us who feel like, cathartic release by like typing it out in a computer on our own.

But then there's also so many of us who have a lot of treasures in our story. And that is not natural to us for us to express ourselves. Thank goodness also for AI. There's so much that we can do, like talk to text to get our stories out. One element that I love so much about our process, we call it a book journey. And like as a whole, could be done. The fastest it was ever done was 87 days by one of our authors. And we kind of like have to just work at the pace that the entrepreneur is ready to be. But it can be fast.

Wow.

But one thing is in the beginning when you're really cracking open your story and the story arc, like the journey you want to take your readers and your audience on, it can be so wonderful and cathartic. And it's my favorite work I get to do is to get to be that mirror with people as we discover the story. Because for most of us, sometimes the most compelling thing about us or our most unique gift, it's hard for us to see because we're so used to it.

There's usually a core message underneath even the message you think you have that's even bigger and deeper and a little challenging to just own on your own. So I really love that work. Yes, of course you can do it yourself, but also don't need to hire us as much as you need to always realize. You might find your deepest story if you have someone to talk it out with. And to reflect back to you, somebody who you know can actually really listen and listen to more than the words you're saying.

Yeah.

but hear the whole energy, big story, full message, the whole of you. So that work is really gratifying. And then the transcript from the conversations is the first rough draft, which is fun. that, then I call it, we get into our ghost editing, where we have just fantastic writer and lead editor. And she helps form it into the language that is read.

Yeah.

And then from there going through that to publishing and promotion. So in the skinny platform, we've got books that are meant to that are skinny, and they're meant to be read, usually in one sitting, because part of what we believe in is both for the author and for the reader, it's democratizing book writing and stories. And it shouldn't be such a beast to take on deciding to tell your story and also

for nonfiction, we don't need to hear a million case studies usually and like all the extra fluff to get you to 200 pages to make sure you feel that like it's a valid book. There's actually studies out there from boarders who went out of business, but before they went out of business, they were tracking their e-readers to their version of Kindle and they were able to see that from books actually purchased by a person in nonfiction. This doesn't count for fiction, fiction's different, but nonfiction, if it was around 200 pages, only 2 % of people would finish the book.

Right.

And then if it was around 100 pages, it was like 10%. And then if you got around 60 pages or under, it was like 90%. And so if you can just keep your story more like to the point, you don't have to like cut things out, but people will actually fully take your story in.

I mean, think, one, so much to unpack there, because I do want to go back to kind of that transition from corporate to solo and being able to tell your story, but also how to think differently about your story is one. since we're on this, I think that the skinny book, I absolutely love that because part of what I do with this podcast is interview authors. And very rarely have I read 100 % of a book.

Mmm.

Thanks

I will read quite a bit, but what I found through time was once I got the main ideas of it and then understood the concepts that, all right, I've learned something from this versus, because the early days when I was reading, I would read them cover to cover, make massive notes. And I still struggled to remember the key things out of this. But then when I flipped it, I'm like, all right, what are the three or four things that I can really take from this and apply to what I'm doing? It changed it for me, right? It just...

Yeah.

And I'll share with you my, the, I don't know, it's my four star rating, if you will, because a lot of the times I will do audio books, right? Cause it's easier. I'm out and about, I can listen. But then if I order your book afterwards, because I want to make notes in it, that means it had that impact. I should go through my list sometime and say, what are my two book purchases? And then maybe that's my recommendation because they got paid twice for the work. But I just think some of those books make sense. I can use them as a resource, those, those types of things. So.

Mm-hmm.

Nice.

I'm 100 % on board with you. The skinner, we can make them and the word of the point we can make them. I'll support that any way we can.

Where are you going? Back to them.

you

Yeah, no, I think that's good. And I think that's great that as readers, we all like do that, like think about most of the books that you don't finish and that you feel like you got the message and then you just didn't have to go through. And that's totally fine. It's totally valid to write those books still. like, yeah, what people want out of nonfiction is usually application. We love the human story and especially the human story where they wrestled with their humanity. Like they figured out they failed. They like composted that and turned it into something new. And then also

Yeah.

All right, cool. And then what are the key questions? How do I apply this? What you have a framework for me or worksheet or anything where usually it's like, okay, bring it in, bring it through. And you take notes and do that while on your own, but we kind of help try and make that possible and easier with the author's work.

Yeah.

Yeah, makes sense. Like I I love the concept. So, all right, so let's go back to kind of the beginning because what you were talking about how to get that story out, talk to somebody. It took me six years. So maybe we would have met six years ago. You could have saved me a lot of time. But when I first started doing my own content, I'm sure it was terrible. I mean, I'm sure my intention was good and what I was trying to teach, but it was about a year and a half in maybe two years in.

Thanks.

E?

I met a woman that was, she wrote, right? But she did editing, she did all these other pieces. And so I actually worked with her to help me improve. right, here's, she's like, you got to get pillar content, things that are come natural to you. But where it really helped me is I would kind of write my thoughts and then she could take it and turn it into something like, consumable, right? Those types of things.

Oof.

Now over time, I'm much more comfortable doing that myself, right? It was part of the learning process. Now I'm okay taking, like I said, using AI. So I'll write a draft of just about anything I'll do, have AI go through, edit, format it, and then I'll go back and edit again, because it likes to tweak things. I'm like, that's not the way I would say it. So I completely changed from the time I was in corporate to now the way I write. I think, you know, kind of if you can help people think.

Yes.

differently. I don't know how to articulate that better but...

Yes, well, here's my, I'll give you like the copy and paste, like one of our first parts of our process. We usually ask our authors, we give them a worksheet, ask a bunch of questions and ask for like all their content that they have. They might have blogs or podcast transcripts or something, you know, or even worksheets in their work and their LinkedIn copy paste, whatever it is. I like to feed all of that to AI. And then at the beginning of our work, I do have a prompt where I ask the,

the AI I like to use to write three different story arcs using their content and where they want to take it. Because a story arc, in my opinion, is different. It's kind of like the skeleton we're choosing for this story. And then your outline is putting muscle onto that skeleton. And we do that human to human, the outline, putting the details down and weaving it in the right way. But sometimes I like to ask AI, OK, how would you shape this? Give me three different options.

Because what a story arc is, is it's the reader's journey. If we're one story arc that's famous, right, is the hero's journey. And usually, for an author, you show up as the mentor. You're not the hero, but your reader's the hero, and you take them through the journey. So that's just an easy example. But there's so many ways to chart the course that they would move through your content and also taking you in and what to do with what you've shared with them. So that's an easy one. It's just like, dump.

Yeah.

get an idea of different shapes that this could take in the form of a book. But also, it would be good to have a conversation with someone else who's not you, who's deep and sightful and knows some parts of you, but maybe not everything, and press record. And just let it fly, and you will get some gold out of that. And you can dump that into the AI as well. Yeah, but those are easy ways to just get started.

Yeah, yeah.

This thing is story work can be used for anything. Like it's not just book. Book is one outcome. It can be used in your website. It can be used in your marketing materials. You could take that, what you just had in that conversation that you recorded and figure out like ask AI to like give you a few different LinkedIn posts. And then of course, read over it, take all the dashes out because that screams AI. And then add a little view on top.

Which, which by the way that kills me because I was using those. mean maybe not correctly all the time, but

I know, I actually like them. Yeah, it's like, right, I would like to use them, but now they feel like AI. So it's like, well, just one that. Yeah, it's that it's okay. So still like, of course, as some humanity on top, but you can get so much out of your own story again, though I think like that ground zero moment of cracking it open is always done best in connection.

Can't do it. Sorry.

Yeah. And the other thing I've found in the end, you're much more experienced. I think everybody has a story, right? Cause I'm guessing there's some folks in corporate right now. They're like, you know, I'm a director of finance and I've been doing this for 20 years in big. I don't have any story to tell them. Like I have highly disagree. I mean, I've yet to meet somebody that didn't have something different or interesting or the way they think about things that, that wouldn't translate, right? To your point, it could be a story or a book.

But again, I think, you know, we're all becoming our own little media companies anyway. So you're going to have to have a point of view. You're going to have to have stories and the more you can, I don't know, effectively tell that. mean, then you're not wasting time with a ton of content. If that makes sense.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think I agree with you. Everybody's got a story. And what we see with most of the authors that are coming in, they're stepping into thought leadership. And usually it's a moment of pivot in their work where they're similar to what your community is all about. It's like this moment of change and story is a chance to like reflect on the past. And it's almost like you're actively composting everything that you've been through and you're getting the seeds out of it.

that you're going to, or the soil that you're going to plant your new seeds in. It's so natural in the way that like the earth cycles, it's the same thing we're doing as people. Like you're looking backwards and taking out the value and allowing it to be what you grow something new from. And so it's just a point of reflection. It doesn't have to turn into a book, but it's a huge piece of just being able to even understand your differentiators.

Yeah. And again, that's part where we, our value again, our value is defined by job titles and companies. And once I got out, it's amazing how that perspective changed. also the other thing that changed, when you look at LinkedIn and other social, you think everybody in the world's posting and, it, think LinkedIn it's, it's like 2 % of people are actually posting on LinkedIn. can't imagine books is probably

I know. They just all seem so great.

what one tenth of 1 % of people actually write a book. don't even know how few

Yeah, I really got on there with AI. I mean, like, this isn't a stat that would hang my hat on because I was it's AI. And sometimes you're like, where is this all coming from? You But the rough math it did with like the books that I asked for published books, not just like books that are written. And I asked, like, how many people on Earth, what percentage of people on Earth have published books? And the

Right.

The stat it could grab me and the rough math it did on like Amazon and you know, whatever. And anyways, it was 0.0086 % of people. know, but again, like who knows? But I think it's like, I think that in the end really thinking about everybody is a lot less than you think. And it said that it's interesting Iceland, was it? Is like, was one of the most published countries where like almost 10 % of the population has published a book. there was some random.

Really?

Ha ha ha ha.

country over there that's like very prolific with publishing.

No, but that's still, but again, I think it's, been able to get your thought. It's never been easier to get your thoughts out, right? It's the tools make it easier, but it's more complicated. And again, I'm still a hundred percent, a hundred percent convinced in this digital and AI driven world that you've been human and the people perspective is going to be so much more important because until AI figures something out, I mean, that's still probability, right? It's pulling all the data from the past and giving you the odds and probability. So it's not going to give you unique.

points of view on things. You, the person is going to have to come up with that. you know, and again, I don't know what the advice is other than to start maybe documenting, doing inventory of, cause you said you fill out a worksheet, but there's some folks that may not have even written anything down other than updating their LinkedIn title. how have you worked with folks that really are starting from nothing? Okay.

Yes, yes, we've got people who start from nothing and then it just turns into conversations. You build that content with like transcripts and asking questions and did, you know, definition like essentially like what do you want? Like what is the concept of your story? And if you had a framework, do you have a framework? Do you want one? Like there's, there's different layers of questions and it's okay to not have some of the answers. Most people coming in to us do have a book.

Yeah.

concept, do have an intention for something they're ready to speak on, even if they don't come in with any content at all. But if you're using a story and it's part of the reflection process to get defined as an entrepreneur, an hour, a consultant, and after leaving corporate,

I would lean into conversations with some of those who are closest to you, either who are still in corporate or some of those like you who are out or like your community where you can be in a group of peers who can reflect on the different stages in the process. think just getting to have, like you said, it's the human always, and it's having the human relational conversations. will begin, we're people, we need other people to be our mirrors, and it's okay to lean into that and you'll get a lot of information from it. So come in and ask.

Yeah.

ask people questions and allow them to be your mirrors. We all love doing favors for one another. I think Benjamin Franklin said something like the best way to turn your enemy into your friend, not that anybody's enemies, but like is to ask them for a favor. Like we just, everybody's ready to give favors.

Yeah, no, I think that's a really, really good, a lot of good points there. But I think that that's definitely one thing I found when you're looking for a job, people are happy to help you. When you tell people you're starting your own thing, they're really super excited to help you. And then when you tell them you're actually writing a book or doing a piece, they're even more excited to help you. on that continuum of where they're excited to help, this is an area that they're absolutely going to give you feedback. And so I'm going to throw you off the wall idea of where I think the content, the good content, the two things I would do in hindsight now is

the podcast, I would start a podcast even if nobody ever listens to it. Cause I find that especially when I do the solo ones, it's me answering questions. And all of a I've got 20 minutes of me talking about it that I can pull that transcript and start to, to, to synthesize really easy way to start doing. then two, believe it or not, I know you're on tick tock now too. mean, if I went through, I haven't figured out how to pull my, I don't know. I probably got 400 videos on tick tock and pull those down and just

Yeah.

Hmm.

Thanks

Mm-hmm.

pull an aggregate, I'd be super curious to, to see what I, how my thought process has changed over those, the two years on Tik Tok. But, but again, those are easy ways to just start talking, right? Cause you do have a point of view and it's value, especially been in the world, in the work world for at least a decade, heck, even five years, people have had unique perspectives on things. So, and just remember most other people aren't taking any action so you can go, you'll be steps ahead. So.

I know we're super tight on time and that was my fault. So I appreciate this power, this skinny platform episode of the, of the.

Exactly. Not at all. Yes, happy to. Well, and to just double down on what you just said, is I do think that all of us have like the one or two channels that we'll really find our home in. And I love that yours is TikTok. That is like one of my favorite stories to share. So that's phenomenal. And like, just, I think that that's a lesson to your listeners that be open to where yours might be, might surprise yourself.

It could be anything from book to stages to small group courses to one-on-one work to TikTok to YouTube to LinkedIn to like Instagram. There's like so many ways and you can use some of the same when you get in and start working and finding your story, you can just, there's, can send it any of those directions. So when you get into uncovering that gift that is you in the story and how it engages now with the world, it's valuable and you can use it anywhere else now from there.

Yeah, I think we've all got a book in us. Mine's there, as you know, it's, you saw a draft of it. Now I'm back. It's funny. It's just, I just got to get over the hump, but it's the self doubt. Like I've been doing content for six years. I know. Exactly. So if anybody in the audience is ready to write this book or they're thinking about it, what's the best way to connect with you and where can they follow you?

Yeah.

I know. That's when you're doing it by yourself. You can like swirl too long. It's okay. That's a part of it.

Yes, you can find the skinny on LinkedIn and my email is Katherine, C-A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E at the skinny platform.com. The skinny platform.com or write a skinny.co both are websites describing your process. Yeah, you will find you will find us if you find any of those.

Awesome. And we are going to get you into the community to do a mini workshop for us on this. Cause I already know we've got interest from our folks that are curious. again, I think all of us have a closet book is somewhere we just need somebody like you to help us bring it out. So, so Catherine, thank you so much for joining us and yeah, keep up supposed to, I'll bring you back because I think we only got into the surface of the content and right. How we can think about this as thought leaders. And so like I said, I thought this was.

Awesome.

We'd be happy to. Thank you, Brett. This was great.

Sure.

Super helpful, super valuable, but I think there's a part two of this conversation. So I appreciate your time and have a good rest of your day.

Wonderful.

Thanks, look forward to it.

Thank