This podcast episode addresses the critical and sensitive subject of childhood sexual abuse, emphasizing the necessity of safeguarding children within our communities. Our esteemed guest, Veronica Thompson, a certified trauma therapist and survivor herself, provides invaluable insights into the complexities of this issue. Throughout our discourse, we explore the ramifications of abuse, the importance of open communication between parents and children, and the imperative for proactive measures to create safe environments. Veronica's extensive experience working with vulnerable populations informs her perspective, as she advocates for a holistic approach to healing and prevention. This episode serves as both a call to action for parents and a resource for understanding the profound impact of trauma on children's lives.

Takeaways:

• The podcast emphasizes the critical necessity for parents to educate themselves about childhood sexual abuse, understanding its prevalence and impacts.
• Veronica Thompson shares her personal journey as a survivor, illustrating the profound effects of childhood trauma on individuals and families.
• The discussion highlights the importance of creating safe environments for children, actively engaging in conversations about boundaries and appropriate behaviors.
• Therapy and healing are framed as essential components of recovery from trauma, particularly when supported by a faith-based approach.
• Listeners are encouraged to take proactive steps in their communities to protect children and address issues of abuse directly and effectively.
• The significance of open dialogue within faith communities regarding trauma and abuse is underscored, advocating for transparency and support.

Hey there, and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.

And my name is Aaron Santemayr and I get to be your host.

As many of you know who've listened into the podcast for the last few years, the month of April, we normally highlight child safety and the importance of protecting children from childhood abuse.

And so this will be an episode that would be for parents only, for adults only.

Just maybe listen to it before you would want your kids to listen to it.

I wouldn't want you to be surprised by some of the things we talk about.

Veronica does a phenomenal job, but she shares her story and we talk about a sensitive subject of childhood sexual abuse.

And so I think it's important just for parents to know that.

But Veronica, she's a certified trauma therapist, she loves Jesus and herself is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

And so she's dedicated a lot of her life, a lot of her ministry, to helping children and teens and families navigate and overcome the trauma of sexual abuse.

And so just enjoyed having her on the podcast and her willingness to engage in a difficult conversation.

But to help us, as I said, she's helping families, she's helping individuals and helping us grow to help provide safety for our children.

Do want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.

I know the podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to and show up on my feed every Tuesday.

And please continue to send in your questions for backchannel with folk.

That's where we get to sit down and learn from Dick.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

A new friend of the podcast, Veronica.

Welcome to the Clarity Podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

I'm really excited to chat with you today, Veronica.

The listeners have heard this many times.

One of the things I enjoy about being a podcast host is I get to meet interesting people and get to know about them.

So I get to read their stuff, listen to the things that they've done before.

But some of the people listening into this, this might be the first time they've met you.

So would you share a little bit about yourself and then I'm going to start asking you some questions?

Yeah, sure.

So I'm going to use some terms probably in the description of myself that maybe we can dig into a little bit as we talk.

So I.

Excuse me.

I am a survivor of what we therapists call complex developmental trauma.

So growing up, I had.

There are 10 categories of experiences that.

That therapists recognize are particularly harmful for children growing up.

And I had all 10 of those experiences, and I can just tell you what they are.

So there's physical, sexual and emotional abuse, physical and emotional neglect, separation or divorce of your caregivers, mental health of a caregiver, mental health issues with a caregiver, addiction, domestic violence, and incarceration of a family member.

And so all of those experiences were things that I dealt with when I was growing up.

Now, during that time, there was a period of a few years where I was living with my grandparents, and they were Christians, and I went to church with them on a regular basis, and I met Jesus.

And it probably not.

Probably.

It most definitely saved my life.

During my teenage years, I. I was in a really unsafe situation.

So, you know, I wasn't sort of going to church and engaging with the Christian community.

I was just engaging with the Holy Spirit.

And so I was praying all of the time for deliverance and some sort of way out.

And when I.

And I became a teen mom, so I got pregnant when I was 16.

I have an amazing daughter now.

So when I turned 18 and I moved out on my own, I mean, God just opened up so many doors for me, and it was certainly not easy.

So I don't want to make it seem like, you know, things were difficult, and then all of a sudden, you know, my life was great.

That was not the case.

But I just recognize now, especially looking back, I can recognize so clearly that that.

That time of prayer really paid off for me in terms of, like, God was listening and he was making a way.

And so what I really wanted to do was to take the.

Because during my childhood, I knew the things that were happening were not right.

And to be honest, I think my caregivers knew it wasn't right also.

But I think the thing was, is that I, nor anyone else in my community knew what to do about it.

You know, there was a sort of an.

You know, it was sort of like, this is how things are.

And even though it's clear nobody around here is happy and, you know, everybody kind of recognizes this is not how you ideally want to live your life.

I think just people just didn't know what to do.

They didn't know how to make changes.

They didn't know how to address and heal and grow.

And so that's what I really.

I know that God placed me on this path to learn about these things, and so for decades, I've just been learning about trauma.

I've been engaging with communities.

I worked the agency where I worked had a contract with child protection services.

So I was working with a lot of kids who had, were dealing with the same issues that I had dealt with.

And then also working with child protection services is a, was a really great experience for me because it really forces you to look at holistically what's happening because you have to work with the parents and you have to support them in their growth, but you also have to be aware of the safety of the children.

And that has to come first.

And so it really gives you.

And then also just sort of systemically what's going on, what are the, what are the support systems that are available for families?

And so I, I really feel blessed to have been able to be in that position and kind of get a very holistic view of what's happening.

Wow.

Yeah.

And so God put me on that path.

So I've been working with vulnerable populations for most of my career.

And I left that, I would say, during the coronavirus pandemic and I started working with individuals.

So I started doing individual therapy and, and ultimate opened up my own practice doing individual and family therapy.

And very quickly I realized that people really need a cohesive narrative around what's happening.

And really the only way to do that is to do that from a point of view of faith.

And so I then became a Christian therapist.

So I wanted to sort of say right out, you know, I'm a Christian and that's the framework you're going to get if we, if we sit down together.

And then most recently I, I just felt called to, and I'd love to talk a little bit more about this.

I really felt called to, to talk broadly to the Christian community about these issues and to help people understand what's going on.

Because a lot of times Christian families really want to isolate their, their struggles into a one hour therapy session per week and, you know, go on with their life as normal outside of the therapy session.

And I would really love to open up a conversation with the Christian community about saying, okay, let's, let's bring these issues outside of that one hour therapy session and start talking about these things as a community.

Yeah.

So what would that look like?

You know, this is a heart and passion.

So what would it look like as you envision that?

Because I think in the church these are subjects probably that we don't necessarily talk about so much.

You know, I think it's.

And even in the missions world?

Not necessarily so much.

But what would that look like in your.

In.

In your idea and your vision, what those conversations and what they would look like in a community of faith?

Well, I think that it's going to require a kind of a reframing of how we see these issues.

And so what I mean by that is a lot of times, these issues.

So I'm a therapist and I'm a Christian.

And so I've been sort of in the secular world and I've been in the Christian world, and there's a bit of bumping heads that I think happens with these communities.

And, And I think that there's a lot that therapists can learn from Christians if they're willing to do that.

And I think there's a lot that Christians can learn from therapists if they're willing to do that.

And I.

So I think that the reframing is really.

I think a lot of people are very nervous about therapy.

You know, I know that there are a lot of Christians who really love it and, you know, they have found it to be very helpful and advocate for it.

But I do think that there are larger number of people who are very hesitant with reason.

Okay.

So when you are talking about struggling and pain and trauma, without a Christian framework, it can lead you to the wrong conclusions about what's going on.

And I think a lot of Christians see that and they get nervous.

So they say, no, I don't want to go to therapy because, you know, that's a secular worldview and that's.

They're going to lead my child or me or somebody into the wrong, you know, the wrong conclusions in the wrong healing path.

And even very recently, there was a pastor who was talking about trying to open a department in the church where they could refer people for Christian counseling or Christian therapy.

And he said he received quite a bit of pushback from people.

People.

And they, you know, just sort of saying, that's not what we.

We don't do that.

That's a secular thing and we go to God.

Yeah.

And so I think that the reframing.

I think.

I think it would be helpful if we can talk a little bit about what trauma is and, and how we got to this place where we are talking about these things.

And so if I can talk a little bit about the history of that.

So I think the word trauma comes from a Greek word.

It just means wound.

And so we have.

You.

We're very familiar with the term trauma in terms of physical trauma.

Right.

So, you know, if you Go.

If you break your arm and you go to the emergency room, you're going to see a trauma surgeon.

Right.

Or trauma doctor.

So in.

A psychiatrist came upon a.

Or he.

He just.

He thought of something that at the time was quite radical.

He said, you know, because at the time, they were basically when people were showing mental health issues, you know, people were chained up and locked in rooms, and these types of people just didn't know what to do at all.

And so this psychiatrist, he said, you know, I think that there's some relationship between what happens to people when they're younger and some of these symptoms that we're seeing in people as adults.

And I think we know that pretty clearly now.

So in our diagnostic manual that we use to diagnose ptsd, the original definition was someone who had an experience of horror, just an experience that was characterized by not your everyday fear, but.

But something that was really, really a terror.

And so we've evolved that over time, and the definition has changed a little bit to mean somebody who has had an experience, we say, with death or being afraid that they were in an experience where they were going to die or there was some sort of sexual violence.

So I say that to.

To help people understand that this is a.

This is a work in progress.

We're trying to understand what's going on with people.

And originally it's, you know, it's clear, you know, when somebody has a physical wound, it's going to lead to death if it's not treated, or it can lead to death if it's not treated.

So there's a physical aspect, but only within the last, you know, 100, 125 years or so have we really begun to understand what I would characterize as a spiritual wound.

Yeah.

So we know that the Bible tells us things like, don't give the devil a foothold.

Right.

And so the way that I understand it is that when a perpetrator comes into the life of a child to sexually abuse the child, there is a spiritual wound that takes place.

And I think it's really incumbent upon the Christian community to recognize that the.

The secular world is trying to deal with these symptoms that are present and disruptive to society and to try to help people heal from these spiritual wounds so that they can function and, and have, you know, healthy careers and family relationships.

But I think that if we can, rather than thinking about, you know, therapy is something that, you know, the secular world does, and we're not really fully comfortable with that.

I think we, we really need to reframe it for ourselves to say there are spiritual wounds that people are experiencing, experiencing when they're younger that we're not really doing a great job of dealing with in the Christian community.

And I don't say that from a point of condemnation.

I really firmly believe that, that in, you know, in the beginning, you know, after the fall, you know, got.

What did God say?

It said all.

All of the thoughts of the hearts of man were evil.

Right?

And so we are from there, we.

We're growing and growing and growing in each generation, and we're trying to get back into the.

The presence of God.

Right.

Fully.

And so, you know, I, when I look at previous generations, I don't want to go back and condemn people.

You know, people were doing what was right in their generation and helping us move toward these things.

Just like the gentleman who had the idea that, hey, maybe we shouldn't be just locking people up in a room for the rest of their lives, you know, so we have to.

To build on what has.

What our previous generations has.

Has built for us.

And so.

But I think we also have to recognize that we are not doing a good job of dealing with these things in our communities.

And so if we can get out of the mindset that trauma is something that's outside of the church, I think that that's a really good place to start to recognize that.

And if you think about all of those experiences that I mentioned before, these things that research has shown us are the most harmful experiences a child can experience, all of those things are in opposition to the Christian worldview.

For sure.

Yeah, for sure.

And.

And so I think an embrace of.

Of this battle is the first step.

So we have to recognize, like, hey, this is not, you know, childhood trauma is not something that we.

That is outside of the church.

Childhood trauma is, is actually the calling of the church.

We are called to or called to a lot of things, but certainly one of those things is to engage in spiritual warfare.

And, you know, Jesus spent a lot of his time on earth healing people.

And so I think we're really called to step into these places of pain, these spiritual wounds, and engage with the healing process, for sure.

And as you mentioned, finally finding healing in Jesus is so important.

Do you think Some of the reasons that.

Or what are some of the reasons you found that?

Is it because it's an uncomfortable subject, a child sexual abuse that we don't necessarily want to talk about it?

Do you think it's maybe that people have experienced that themselves, and because they've experienced that themselves, they've not had a safe place to express it?

And I 100% resonate with you when you said, you know, looking at the past, I say it's unkind and academically unsound to criticize the past with the information we have today.

Right.

So you and I, we have information today that 100 years ago they didn't have.

So to criticize the past for information they didn't have is unkind and academically unsafe.

So back to that original question.

What are some of the reasons you think that we're.

Is it because it's an uncomfortable subject?

Do you think it's because people in the church have been abused and they feel unsafe to talk about it?

Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, well, I think it's both.

And so I think for.

So just in terms of my family, and we're very open in talking about this, so, you know, I'm not talking about things that people wouldn't be comfortable with me talking about.

So.

My mom is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, and no one in her family did anything about it, and she just had no language to describe what happened, and she just went on with her life.

And so when I was a teenager, so I was sexually abused from the, as early as I can remember.

Excuse me.

All the way up until.

Excuse me.

All the way up until I got pregnant with my daughter at 16.

And so when these things happened, my mom was really angry when she first discovered that I was being abused when I was very little.

I remember her reaction was just, she was screaming and angry, and then nothing happened.

And I think that this is part of the dynamic that occurs.

And then I continued to have that experience, and she just didn't know what to do about it.

And she became a Christian when I got pregnant.

And so she wasn't a Christian before that, but because she was abused and, and the messages that she got from her family and her community was like, nobody cares, you know, nobody, or at the very least, nobody knows what to do about this.

When it happened in, in our family, to her daughter, myself, her reaction was, was stronger than, than the reaction that, that people had it to her experience.

But, but she didn't know how to, how to recreate this family life.

She didn't know how to keep me safe.

And so after she became a Christian, we started talking a lot about, you know, what had happened and why it had happened.

And we, when we use the word normalized in clinical work.

So I think for generations that have had sexual abuse in their past, it becomes an experience that is normalized.

And I know that sounds really hard to wrap your mind around.

So it's not so much that it's like, no big deal normal, it's just sort of like how we all kind of understand we live in a broken world and we have to do really hard things sometimes things that we don't like and things that are unpleasant.

Generations can start to sort of say like, yeah, that's just the way the world is kind of thing.

And, and that those.

That's for survivors.

I also think that there's another side of this that, you know, most people are aware of.

The Catholics child sex abuse scandal.

And it's not just the Catholic Church.

It's, you know, doesn't matter if you're in a synagogue or a church or a cathedral.

This happens everywhere.

And there's a reason for that.

It's because predators seek out children.

And, and a lot of times families take their children to, to faith services because they want to raise their child in that way, which is a wonderful thing.

But that's why we have to be sort of alert and safeguard our churches in a really strong way.

Because this, because we know from research that pedophiles and predators seek out these, these faith communities because they're easy to.

Right now, they're somewhat easy to penetrate.

So I think that in terms of, if you look at the Catholic Church scandal, you can use that as sort of a framework for understanding why it's difficult for people in ministry to, to engage with these topics.

And it's really because when a child is sexually abused, so you're taking an authority system and the child is at the lowest end of the authority.

So there's the child and then there's the mom and the dad, and then there's maybe the ministry leaders and then there's the pastors.

And so you're looking at a situation where there's this whole structure of authority around a child.

And a lot of times when it's discovered that a child is sexually abused, sort of the, there's like a magnifying glass over all of the authority figures within that community.

And that magnifying glass can be really, really uncomfortable.

And sometimes it really takes, you know, restructuring an entire system when you discover that children are being sexually abused in that way.

If you think about all the, the number of children who were sexually abused within the Catholic Church, that's a real problem for them to, to deal with.

And if they are going to properly deal with it, they're going to have to spend a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of energy focused on this issue.

And there are people in, in authority figures who are in authority position, excuse me, who have to be held accountable.

And this is the, the, the final piece of it, which is that within these communities, people know each other.

So I think that there's a bit of a wish that we have, which is an understandable wish, which is to say evil happens outside of this place, this room that we're in.

And that is, that's 100% not true.

The vast majority, something like 92% of child sexual abuse happens by somebody who knows the child.

It's either a family member or a community member.

And if you really think about that, you know, when we talk about the difficulty in addressing this issue, anyone listening to this can just think for a moment like the top three people who you love in your life.

Imagine that you find out one of those people has been sexually abusing children.

Like the ramifications of that, they can really shake a family and a community.

And that can look a lot of, like a lot of things.

It can look like a father who is supporting their, their family and you know, maybe the mom stays home and suddenly you're, you're looking at potentially reporting somebody to the authorities, which is absolutely what we, we need to be doing.

We need, we need justice and accountability when this happens.

But if you do that, you're looking at potentially removing the income source from a family.

You're looking at potentially making a public statement that your church community has somebody who was in a leadership position.

Usually most of the time when we look at these cases, these are people who have tried to put themselves in a position over children, like, you know, a scout leader.

So somebody who has, who has the ability to, to spend time with a child alone or youth pastor or teacher or something like that.

So you, you have to actually be willing to come out and say somebody came into our church and inserted themselves into our community and was able to isolate children over the course of time and sexually abuse them.

And people struggle with that because I think a lot of questions come up and people think, you know, well, what, what's going to happen to my church?

What's going to happen to my ministry?

What's going to happen to my family.

And then on top of that, I actually really like this person.

We were friends.

I don't understand.

We went out to lunches together.

You know, we spent time together.

He's married, and my wife and I had had dinner with them, you know, so, so I think really digging into this, this, you know, you really are confronted with some really difficult things if you're going to really lean into understanding this issue.

Yeah.

You mentioned about families and parents and you shared about your mother.

How, what are some ways that you recommend for parents?

Maybe their child's been sexually abused?

How can they care for their child?

What are some things that they can do and maybe some things that you would recommend that they not do?

Is that, is that a fair question?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, I think so.

One of the big questions that comes up is, should I put my child through the process of prosecuting?

So many parents just, they say, I don't want to put my child through that.

Oh, my goodness.

We just want to move on.

And so the first thing that I would recommend is to prosecute.

Now, I understand that that's probably the most difficult thing to do, but I think in the church and in our families and as, as parents, we have to remember that Jesus didn't promise us an easy road.

You know, Jesus, Jesus said, you, you have to carry your cross.

You know, you have to be willing to allow yourself to be persecuted.

If you're going to follow me, and you have to be willing to, you know, think about the, the man who asked him, you know, how do I, how do I follow you?

And he, the wealthy man, and he said, you know, sell everything you have and, and follow me.

You know, sometimes if you're going to be a follower of Christ, you are going to have to take a very difficult road.

I certainly know that's been the case in a lot of times in my life.

But I think the, the thing that we have to remember during these times is that Jesus also promises us fruits of the spirit, and he promises us to be able to be, to be in his presence during these times.

In the United States, we're very blessed to have a law and a legal system that supports the Christian walk.

And so that starts from when you report somebody to the police.

And so there is an investigation that, that investigation is meant to be truth seeking.

And we, that's our calling in the Christian community is to seek truth.

Jesus said, I am the truth.

And so that truth, the, the investigation toward truth is based on evidence, and it's based on, on you know, research and understanding, it's an informed process.

And then if, because a lot of people are concerned about false allegations.

And so just to the, the system that investigates these cases, there is pretty good evidence that helps people who are investigating know how to recognize false allegations.

There's a, there are very specific red flags that people are trained to look for.

And so I would say that even if you, you're not sure that it's true or you're not sure that it really happened, that you still follow this process and, and trust that it's an informed process, that all of these concerns that somebody has, they're embedded into the investigation.

And so, you know, this is not, you know, in the 80s, there was some.

Sometimes there was this sort of satanic panic that happened during the 80s, and, you know, neighbors were coming in and talking to children about what happened and sort of guiding and coaxing them.

And it created this system where, you know, there was potential for children to be sort of manipulated into saying things.

And that is just not the case anymore.

We have a very, we have a very good process for forensic interviewing.

And that forensic interview that the child starts with, it starts out with talking about the difference between a truth and a lie.

And so the interviewer will help the child to understand that.

So that's just to, to provide comfort for people who, who are concerned about, well, what is, what if this is not true.

But if you, but if you follow this process, once you get to, you know, and you, you have a right to a jury of your peers.

And so you have a group of people who are, who are carefully selected.

You know, you weed out people who have strong biases.

And so I'm just trying to give people a sense of, you know, this is a fair process.

And it's not a process that's seeking vengeance or something like that.

It' process that's seeking truth and safety for children.

And so then a judge looks at the, the circumstances and then we'll, we'll give, will give consequences that are based on that.

So, you know, I've seen from, you know, like the Larry Nassar case, for example, if people are not familiar with that, this was a, a gymnast, a doctor that was working with young girls who were gymnasts, and he just sexually abused a huge number of girls over the course of years and he got life in prison.

And so there, there's this kind of extreme.

And then I've also seen on the other end, you know, there was a case of a grandfather who molested his granddaughter, and they did an investigation.

And he.

He confessed and he explained what happened.

He said there were no other victims.

And, and so there was a.

There was a process where he was able to look at what he did, and he got, I think, three years of probation.

And so, you know, what I'm trying to say is just that the court will look at what happened and then respond accordingly.

And then on the very other end of that, we know that there are prison ministries all over the United States.

I have been involved in a prison ministry.

So there are people who are called to go and talk to people who are in prison.

And so we don't have to.

If somebody we love, and I say this because it's almost always someone we love.

And so if someone we love has to face the consequences of, of this one, I would say, you know, just know that you're doing the best possible thing for that person as well.

You're not just protecting the child, although you really have to protect the child.

When we think about just how harmful and evil it is for an adult to engage in sexual activity with a child, you know, we really have to give children.

Children have a right to live their childhood and their adolescence without an adult engaging with them in that way, it's so harmful.

But just know that you're also not abandoning your loved one.

You know, your loved one also has the right to continue to, to be treated like a human being.

And, and hopefully, you know, a lot of people get saved in prison and, you know, they have a process of confessing and, and engaging with.

With ministry, with prison ministries.

And there's always Bibles in, in prison.

And so just know that also, and that our system, again, that we're very blessed in the United States to have a system that reflects our Christian values.

And so the very first thing I would say is the process of exposing child sexual abuse and exposing what the.

The abuser did to the child is very, very healing for the child.

And so this misconception that I don't want to put my child through that, it's actually helpful for a child.

And if you listen, for example, to the survivors in the Larry Nassar case, almost all of them were saying, you know, this happened, and it.

It was terrible.

But on the other side of this, I feel like now I'm taking my life back.

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

And then when it comes to parents then having conversations with their kids in the home, so they went through a process.

They've raised a concern, at least in, you know, the organization I serve with, that's what we.

We call it raising a concern.

And then that concern is as you talk about, there's a process that walks through to seek the truth in that.

How do parents, how do the parents help their children in the home?

Yeah.

So do you mean if they've been sexually abused?

Yes.

Yeah.

If they've been sexually abused, how can, how can the parents help them in the home?

Yeah.

So I just finished a book that hopefully will be out at the end of this year, sometime this year.

And the book is specifically answering this question.

Okay.

Because so in the, in the book, what I do is, is I.

In each chapter there is a symptom of ptsd and we look at what that is from a spiritual lens.

And then how do you, how do you respond.

Respond to that in a healing way.

And so I'll give one example.

So one of the symptoms of PTSD is negative thoughts and feelings.

And so what does that mean?

So in the DSM again, that, that manual that we use to diagnose ptsd, it gives examples like when someone has ptsd, they, they think things like, I'm bad, there's something wrong with me, no one cares about me, I'm a burden to the people that are, that are in my life.

And so one of the things is that the, the, the justice seeking process can address some of those, those ways that, that children can be impacted.

So some of the, the, the negative thoughts and feelings.

So we'll take one.

So, and this is in the dsm, I am bad.

So this is a conclusion that children can come to when abuse happens and no one does anything about it.

So they can think, oh goodness, you know, this terrible thing happened to me.

It must mean that, that there's something bad about me because nobody's really doing anything about this and they know that I'm being harmed and no one's helping me.

And so I think it's really helpful for, for parents to engage with their children in conversations about what are some of the things that the grooming process has left the child with.

So a lot of times children think this is my fault.

And they think that because the grooming process specifically grooms them to think that.

So a lot of times perpetrators will, will start very small in terms of introducing topics that are inappropriate to the child.

And, and so they might start with watching a movie that is maybe just over the edge of what they know their parents would allow them to do.

Maybe they sneak them some presents, maybe the perpetrator sees that, well, maybe say a swear word or something.

And so there are these little things that abusers do.

And then it, it's.

They increase it over time that by the time the child is in a position where real abuse is taking place, the child feels like they have somehow participated in this process because they never told.

And so I think, I think when, when parents find out that their child has been sexually abused, it's really important to really remind the child on a regular basis that they did not do anything wrong, that adults are responsible for keeping children safe.

Adults are responsible for setting an appropriate and healthy tone.

Adults are responsible for setting the framework for how, how we behave in, in our, in our homes, in our schools, in our churches, whether you're in, you know, Boy Scouts or gymnastics, and those are some of the other organizations that perpetrators have, have infiltrated.

And so just reminding your child over and over, this was not something that came from you, and we know that from our Christian walk as well, you know, that evil, Evil is something that we have to engage with and learn how to, how to push back on.

And that I think that this, this idea that if, if you're good, good things will happen, and if you're bad, bad things will happen is something that we need to sort of amend a little bit in the way that we raising our children.

And so I think the idea is that if you are following God's word over the course of time, right, you will have fruits of the spirit.

And that means, but that sometimes means that there are long periods of struggle and growth and pushing through and.

But that on the other end of that, you'll have fruits of the spirit.

And, and so that a child doesn't imagine that just because something really hard or really evil happened to me, it means that I've done something wrong.

And so that's just one example and one symptom.

And so in the book, I really, I go through all of the symptoms and, and so I think just in, in that particular case, I would say apply truth.

And one more thing on this is that, you know, I think that we have to get a little bit, bit, a little bit more proactive as parents.

I think a lot of times the, the culture kind of teaches us to be reactive parents.

And so what I think that means is, is that oftentimes we'll, we'll go to the child and ask the child, like, what's going on with you?

How are you doing?

You know, are you struggling with anything?

And these types of things, which is a good thing.

I don't want to make that sound bad.

It's, it's.

It's Great to engage your child and help and have them give you some feedback.

But I think we also have to be in a position where we teach our children things, where we proactively say, hey, these are some of the things that you might experience in the world and here are the ways that you deal with that.

And so I think being a little bit more proactive about the possibility that this could happen, and then when it does, to say, hey, we're going to be walking through this and we're going to be talking about it all the time.

I think it's in Deuteronomy, but I love this, this verse.

I think it's a couple verses in the Bible where, where God says, talk to your children about these things.

You know, write them on your doorposts, talk about them when you're walking, talk about them when you're having dinner.

I think it says eating or.

But, but it's sort of this idea of, of things that you struggle with, make them a part of your, your conversations that you have with your families all of the time.

So, yeah, great word.

One last question for you and then I'm going to ask you if you would, if you would pray for us Creating safe places for children.

Any, any wisdom for leaders and team members and people that are listening in about creating safe places for children.

And then I'm going to ask you to pray.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there, I think there are different things you can do.

There are, you know, I think just in the, under the guidance from the Bible of post these things on your doorframes, you know, in children's ministries, you can put up posters that say appropriate touch, inappropriate touch, touch that harms or hurts is, you know, big X over that.

And there are things you can get online that you can put up so that it becomes something that children see you.

So that's something sort of small and concrete.

There's also an organization that I really love and it's called Grace, and that stands for Godly response to Abuse in the Christian Environment.

And they have, they have lots of different programs.

They have a safeguarding program where they can come and work with leadership and make sure that the policies that they have in the case where somebody is discovered to be abusing a child, that the policies they have are the right policies.

And, and these are Christian therapists, many of them.

And so they're, they're trained to, to look at these things and in a very informed way.

And they also do investigations.

So if, if somebody in your church has been accused of this, you can call them and ask them to come into your church and, and investigate this.

And I think that's really nice because it's a group of Christian people partnering with you toward trying to find the truth, and then they can also come visit your church.

So they have lots of tiers of intervention.

But I would just say just kind of like get familiar with some of these services so that we are, you know, following God's word, we are being alert, we're ready, and so that when the day of evil comes, we can stand firm and we know exactly what to do.

Yeah.

Veronica, it's been a phenomenal time to be with you today.

Would you pray for us that God will use this conversation to encourage adults to be safe around children, that they'll help create safe places that use this conversation to bring healing to those who have been hurt.

And then also it'll be used for.

For children that.

That we will continue to steward them, our children well and the role and responsibility we have as adults to care for them and create safe places for us.

Will you pray for us today?

Absolutely.

Heavenly Father, thank you so much for Aaron and everybody who is listening to this.

Thank you for coming into our lives and showing us your way and showing us how to act in the world and how to engage with each other in a loving and compassionate way toward truth so that we can build your kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

Lord, please be with all of the children who have been abused.

Please help them to know that they are not alone and that you are with them, that you love them, that they are wonderfully made in the image of God and that they are special and loved by their community.

Lord, please give everybody who is engaged with our churches and our children the strength and the courage to face this issue directly, to fear, not to step into uncomfortable conversations and situations, and for us to support each other during that.

That process so that we can keep children safe.

And for the children who have been abused, we can help speak truth over them and to help them heal.

I ask this in Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.