Luke, Erin and guest Aaron Hedge — the environmentalism and County reporter at RANGE Media — chatted Spokane City Council rule changes (and the consequences for conservatives), the continued saga of Liberty Lake City Council’s growing control over their library and a grab-bag of other local news items! If you listened to our episode and want to learn more, here are the stories we referenced:

• Erin’s write-up for RANGE of Spokane City Council rule changes and what they mean
• Aaron and Erin’s stories on the Liberty Lake Library saga, and the national context of obscenity
• The new homelessness data dashboard
• Our coverage on the Spokane Regional Health District’s Feasibility Study on privatizing opioid treatment
• Stories on the downtown fires from The Spokesman’s Alexandra Duggan and Nick Gibson

Do you have questions about local government? Wondering who to complain to about an issue in your neighborhood? Wondering which agency governs certain things? Wondering why something is happening or how much it costs? Email us at freerange@kyrs.org with your questions, and we’ll try and answer them next week!

Hey, it's Aaron.

2

If you think the ins and outs

of municipal government, like

3

rule changes, board appointments

and data management or boring.

4

This may not be the episode for you.

5

But if political maneuvering library,

censorship and understanding the realities

6

of homelessness rates in our city.

7

Is more your speed.

8

This is definitely the episode for you.

9

I've always found it crazy how a

decision the government makes can be

10

fascinating or mind numbingly boring,

depending on how you talk about it.

11

Hopefully we hit the former chairs.

12

. Hi everybody, you're listening

to KYRS Medical Lake, Spokane.

13

This is Free Range, a co

production of KYRS and Range Media.

14

We're joined today, Erin and

I, are joined today by our

15

colleague, other Erin, Erin Hedge.

16

We're going to be covering

a couple of topics today.

17

Some potential rule changes at Spokane

City Council, an ousting of a library

18

board member in Liberty Lake, some early

analysis of a regional homelessness

19

dashboard that has actually some

demographic data where we haven't

20

had time to report out yet, but we

wanted to talk about just our first

21

impressions because it's a lot of things.

22

folks who are experiencing

houselessness that we have never

23

known and we finally have it, so

we're excited to chat about it.

24

We do not have anything specific today

about the closing of Dominey's Sandwiches,

25

a legendary downtown restaurant, though

I will say, despite growing up in Spokane

26

County and living here most of my life,

my love of downtown Spokane began with

27

the massive sandwiches I ate at Dominey's

and their delicious Sweet Hot Mustard.

28

So that's truly an end of an era.

29

To start though, Erin, we're going to

chat about some potential changes to

30

the Monday night city council meetings.

31

Yeah.

32

It could be the end of another

era, the tradition of Monday

33

night council meetings, which

has lasted for at least 65 years.

34

Councilor Michael Cathcart's office went

back through the old Spokane gazettes

35

available in the library archive.

36

And his legislative assistant

Shea was able to trace the

37

Monday night council meetings.

38

Tradition back 65 years So one of

those potential changes would move

39

Monday meetings to Tuesdays But

there's a proposed list of other

40

changes some good some bad that

I thought we could talk about.

41

Let's go for it Yeah, okay So first the

date change council members in favor of

42

changing the day say it would make child

care easier There's a lot of holidays that

43

happen on Mondays There's a lot of Spokane

Public School District closures on Mondays

44

And so many of the council members and the

council staff that have to come to those

45

committee and briefing meetings throughout

the day have kids that they struggle to

46

find child care for during these closures.

47

But this would be a really big

change and one that was proposed with

48

very little constituent engagement.

49

Would it make it easier or harder

for people to come to meetings?

50

We just don't know yet.

51

And it does directly negatively impact

one council member, Jonathan Bingle, who

52

is one of the two conservatives on the

council, both of which represent council

53

district one, which encompasses part of

downtown stretching up to the Northeast.

54

It's got like the Hilliard area, the Logan

neighborhood and stretches all the way

55

out to where it would touch the Valley.

56

So the Trent shelter.

57

Was in District 1.

58

And roughly speaking, the

dividing line is Division Street.

59

So if you're east of Division, chances

are you're in Council District 1.

60

If you're west of Division, you're

Council District 3, generally speaking.

61

Right.

62

We got a clip of Bingo we want to play.

63

Hopefully I've got it cued up.

64

Hopefully I do this right.

65

Hopefully it doesn't blast us out.

66

Since he started on council,

Tuesdays have been like a pretty

67

well known conflict for him.

68

His wife works Bingle talking about that.

69

Now issue or something where they said,

Okay, Jonathan cause I, it, it's not

70

like I don't see benefits of Tuesdays,

I, I do see the benefits, and it

71

could make some sense, if they said,

Okay, Jonathan, we want to shift it to

72

Tuesdays, but we're not going to do it

until the next election cycle, the next

73

council, that to me is totally in play

because now I know what I'm getting

74

into if I run for council again, right?

75

And it gives my wife and I some time

to actually, work those things out.

76

So the date change, though, yes, it

would impact Councilmember Bingle.

77

It's not the only big

potential change in the rules.

78

The Council made a lot of updates that

would increase transparency and access to

79

accurate information about what exactly

they're doing and when they're doing it.

80

So here are a couple of those updates.

81

You would now be able to

testify at committee meetings.

82

So, the way that legislation currently

passes through council, it has to

83

be discussed at a committee meeting.

84

If it passes committee, it then goes

on to the legislative agenda, which

85

is the Monday night meetings at 6pm.

86

It has to have a first reading

there, where they read it, they take

87

commentary from anybody who has thoughts

and feelings about that piece of

88

legislation, and then it's not voted on.

89

That gives it one more week in

order to incorporate some of

90

those potential changes that

maybe would come from commentary.

91

Somebody saying oh, this would negatively

impact me, so maybe council members

92

now have a week to make amendments

to that piece of legislation.

93

Then it would come back around a week

later, they would take commentary one more

94

time, and then it would be up for a vote.

95

But, people, we've heard from folks

that by the time it just makes

96

it onto the legislative session

agenda, it's already set in stone.

97

People don't, things don't

make it onto that agenda unless

98

they're likely going to pass.

99

And because public comment is currently

only taken at the legislative sessions,

100

it's a lot harder for council to change

anything based on public opinion.

101

Right.

102

This would make it easier.

103

You would now be able to come to

committee meetings, which happen in

104

the afternoons, currently on Mondays,

potentially on Tuesdays, and they would

105

take 15 speakers for two minutes each at

every committee meeting, where you could

106

offer feedback on legislation when it's

more in that kind of incubation stage,

107

more flexible, more fluid, more able

to take changes without having to go

108

through a complicated amendment process.

109

And then the council would be

able to incorporate your feedback

110

earlier and more efficiently.

111

So we think that this is, this is a

change that is only going to increase

112

the ways that the public can participate.

113

Yeah.

114

Just real quick.

115

And we should say that these, these

changes don't have to be passed

116

necessarily as like a as an amendment.

117

All across the board change.

118

It may be that they decide to keep it

on Mondays, but they would still change

119

the committee meeting things, or is it

going to be like all up or all down?

120

Okay, so They would have to make

amendments to the current piece of

121

legislation that's been submitted.

122

But you're likely right that it would

not all of these might go through.

123

Many of them, like this committee meeting

testimony, it's not super controversial.

124

I don't really see a world in which that

change doesn't make it through, because

125

all of the council members, regardless

of political spectrum, spectrum all

126

think that that's a pretty good idea.

127

But yeah, this, this slate of

changes that we're talking about

128

might not pass carte blanche.

129

It might be like, Oh, we're going to

keep meeting on Tuesdays, but we are

130

going to take more public testimony

here, but we're going to cut it here.

131

So like the, these are what they're

proposed and what's on the agenda

132

that would be up for a vote on

this Monday, but there is still

133

time to make amendments to it.

134

So some things might get

taken out or shifted around.

135

Another change that I think is a

particularly good idea is that they're

136

going to make it easier for you to know

in advance what's coming up by publishing

137

advance agendas two weeks ahead of the

meeting and simplifying the amendment

138

process to ensure that the final posted

agenda would reflect all changes.

139

And I know as I'm saying it, that's a

really boring sentence, but basically

140

the gist of this is that they're going

to give you a heads up two weeks.

141

in advance.

142

Here's the things we think are going

to be up for a vote in two weeks.

143

So if something's important to

you, get child care, clear your

144

schedule, plan on coming, or submit

commentary in a written form.

145

And then you can track it through better.

146

So it's going to be like, have a clearer

way of displaying amendments that are made

147

to these things over the course of weeks.

148

This was something that I know was

specifically important to Council Member

149

Klitschke, because She talked to me

about it in a conversation a couple

150

months ago as one of the things they

really want to do to, yeah, make it

151

more transparent and make it easier

for people to come give comment.

152

Yeah.

153

And I've seen before where somebody

shows up to testify on an item and

154

it got amended at a briefing session.

155

Something So it's like no longer, their

testimony might not even matter anymore.

156

Right.

157

They're like angry about something.

158

They talk for two minutes and then

at the end one of the council members

159

is like, Oh, point of information.

160

We actually took this

section out at briefing.

161

So thanks for your feedback,

but you're good, man.

162

We fix it already.

163

I called the council director Jacoby bird,

and he told me that he has high hopes for

164

even further improving this process over

the next few years, optimistically in the

165

next one year, but he, he wanted to give

me a more realistic timeline, but they

166

want to simplify agendas by integrating.

167

like systems onto their website.

168

So it would have Oh, here's an agenda

item straight on their website.

169

Here's a two sentence like plain

word description of what it does.

170

If this is important to you, click

this button and you can sign up

171

to testify on it for that item

or to provide written testimony.

172

And then if that item changed, like if

it got deferred or if it got amended, you

173

would get like an automated text message.

174

That's like the thing you

signed up for changed.

175

So that's, I think that would be

like bringing, bringing government.

176

Website technology into like the

177

is, usually we're like talking

mid nineties tech here, right?

178

I mean, currently sign up for it

is like a separate Google form.

179

People get confused all the time.

180

They sign up for something

they don't mean to testify on.

181

There's this one guy that I think

just signs up for everything.

182

And so every time he gets.

183

It's called up to the mic.

184

They're like, Hey are

you, it's your turn again.

185

Are you, is the thing you're

talking about Jermaine to the

186

thing you're signed up for?

187

And he's Oh, I thought we were doing this.

188

They're like, no, that's later.

189

So this is just hopefully clear everything

up make it more efficient and transparent

190

and things do shift, not like every single

week, but there is a lot of that shift.

191

So something that could like,

let you know Hey, you wanted

192

to come talk on this thing.

193

We said we were going

to talk about this week.

194

We're actually moving this next

week would be theoretically

195

pretty helpful for people.

196

I think so too another

thing that I think is cool.

197

There's now going to be an opportunity to

You've always been able to submit written

198

testimony to the council You can send

an email to them if something impacts

199

you you can call them You've always been

able to do this But they're now adding

200

an option cc like a specific email

address on it And if you get that email

201

sent in on time, your thoughts would be

included in the publicly available agenda.

202

So this would make it so that me, the

media, or other interested citizens

203

can see oh, 30 people submitted

emails saying this was a bad idea.

204

Those 30 people, they might be working

class, they might be night shift workers,

205

they might never have the opportunity

to go to a Monday night meeting, and

206

so you might never hear their voice.

207

And even if a council member gets an

email from them, that's still happening

208

like quietly in the dark, a council

member has the option to bring up whether

209

they received that constituent feedback.

210

But now you could get it in a publicly

available agenda, it would be part of

211

the public, the The public record and

we just talked about the difficulty

212

of people who work swing shifts or

restaurant workers and stuff like that

213

last weekend with Johnny and Sarah.

214

And so that's pretty responsive.

215

Yeah, yeah, I think it would just add a

lot of accountability and transparency

216

about how the public really feels about

cities policymaking because One of the

217

things that really annoys me as a reporter

is, every time I call one of these council

218

members and ask them why they're making

a certain decision, they say I heard

219

from constituents that it was important

to them but it's are you just cherry

220

picking the constituents that you know

are going to say this is important to you?

221

Because Zach Zipone on an issue I'm about

to bring up is oh, This one constituent

222

said that they want meetings on Tuesdays.

223

And then I call Michael Cathcart

and he's this other constituent says

224

that they want meetings on Mondays.

225

And that makes it really subjective.

226

So we're talking about two opinions

in a city of 225, 000 people, yeah.

227

Right.

228

Question for the journalists out there.

229

Does this, would those email

addresses, of where people send

230

these from, would that be easily

accessible to a reporter like you?

231

Could follow up if there was a particular

Note that you hadn't seen before and you

232

wanted to talk to that person as a source.

233

Do you think you'll be

able to get access to that?

234

That's a good question.

235

I think that there is precedent

for that to go either way

236

with how public records work.

237

Sometimes if it's a private citizen,

they will redact those kinds of things.

238

But other times with this, it's Oh, if I

want my opinion to specifically be public

239

record, your name already is not redacted.

240

So I don't know what they would decide

to do with an email address, but this

241

would be helpful for like, When I'm

writing something, oftentimes I hear

242

somebody's name called to go testify,

and I want to use their testimony, but

243

I don't know how their name is spelled.

244

Yeah, so those are the things that I

think are particularly good in the rule

245

changes, like largely non controversial.

246

Alright, let's talk about the

controversial stuff, because there is a

247

lot of that, and it's very, people are

angry, at least councilmembers are pissed.

248

Yeah the change I'm most disappointed

by is that they'll be reducing

249

the amount of time that you get

to testify on legislative items

250

from three minutes down to two.

251

So those legislative items are the

things that are up for a vote that night.

252

This isn't like open forum where

you can talk about anything

253

that's, To your heart's content.

254

These are the things that are up for a

vote and people already frequently run

255

out of time when they're trying to explain

to council members, how a particular

256

piece of legislation would impact them.

257

Somebody was talking about, like my family

walks this piece of land every year.

258

It's beautiful.

259

I see X, Y, and Z.

260

I don't want it developed.

261

Yeah.

262

Yeah.

263

They tell this story.

264

And, and they're already watching the

clock that's on the wall tick down, trying

265

to use their very limited time to make

council members who may have no idea what

266

they're living through or going through

or experiencing, understand how these

267

laws would impact them and their family.

268

Right.

269

Yeah.

270

And by cutting another 60 seconds

off of that, it would make it even

271

harder for people to make themselves

heard and tell their stories, I think.

272

And these are not professional pundits or

professional lobbyists, so it's ha I mean,

273

the the times that I've given testimony

in a former life as an arts organizer

274

when I was trying to get more arts funding

and stuff, it's I even practiced in front

275

of the mirror, and it I still ran out of

time, because I was like, okay, I got got

276

this in exactly three minutes, and then so

it's not it's not the easiest thing to do.

277

Definitely not.

278

The other big change, and this I think

is the big one, a piece of legislation

279

would now have to have three sponsors.

280

And I, I described earlier the phase

of oh it goes to committee and then

281

it moves to legislative session.

282

Right now you only need two

council members to give something

283

a stamp of approval before it

can move on to the final phase.

284

Right.

285

So, two people.

286

Two council members okay, we talked about

this in committee, we want to talk about

287

this at the evening council meeting.

288

And then, it gets its first read,

it goes up for a vote, and this is

289

important because there's two council

members from every district get voted.

290

So we've got two council members

on the council from District 1,

291

District 2, District 3, and then

Council President Wilkerson sort

292

of represents the entire city, but

we've got seven people on this board.

293

Two from each, council district.

294

And so, this would effectively make

it impossible for people that, in

295

one district, who really cared about

something to unilaterally bring something

296

forward on behalf of their constituents.

297

Right, because the proposed change is to

bump that number up to three, not two.

298

And items don't usually fail.

299

If they have enough support to make

it to the meeting, they usually

300

have enough support to pass,

but that's not always the case.

301

Right.

302

And it just so happens that right

now, the only two conservatives

303

on the council are also the two

representatives of District 1.

304

So there is this kind of push pull

between oh, is the progressive

305

supermajority voting down conservatives?

306

Are they silencing like

the conservative opinion?

307

In which case, Yeah, like it's

a majority, that's what happens.

308

But because those two conservatives

come from the same district,

309

there is this push pull argument

of is this a game of politics?

310

Or is this silencing the voices

of the constituents of District

311

1 who elected these people?

312

Or is this game of politics also

silencing an entire district?

313

Right.

314

And currently, Bingle and Cathcart

They can still rally to push

315

legislation through committee

and to the evening agendas.

316

If just the two of them think

something's important, they can

317

get that on an evening agenda.

318

And, hypothetically, maybe like 400

people from their district come down

319

to that council meeting and use their

three minutes each and convince the

320

progressive supermajority that this

thing actually is important to the

321

people who live there, even if the

progressive supermajority is we don't

322

like this, this doesn't feel good to us.

323

Right.

324

They still had the opportunity

to duke it out in public.

325

But now, without a member of the

five person progressive super

326

majority essentially signing off,

Bingle and Cathcart wouldn't be

327

able to get a single piece of

legislation onto the meeting agendas.

328

So what's the reasoning for doing this?

329

I've heard a couple things.

330

The progressives have a

few different reasons.

331

Here's what council member

Zach Zappone told me was one of

332

his reasons for supporting it.

333

Are we gonna try it from your computer

or are we gonna try it from mine?

334

Keep it on yours.

335

I don't think mine's working.

336

Alright, so here is Zappone.

337

Oftentimes, it'll be like two people

in a silo talking to each other.

338

Whichever two that is.

339

Not saying it's those two.

340

But it'll often be two people

talking and then introducing it.

341

And not really communicating it out

and, and trying to circulate more things

342

so people know what's going on more.

343

But Zach, doesn't this really just sort of

force them to collaborate with you guys?

344

Because it just, it does I mean,

at the end of the day Right?

345

At the end of the day, they have to

realize that elections have consequences,

346

and the makeup of that happens.

347

It's the same with the federal elections.

348

If a group wants to get something

passed and they're in the minority,

349

they have to work with the

majority to get something passed.

350

That's the reality of democracy.

351

Okay, so that's what Zach thinks.

352

Progressive Kitty Klitschke had

a slightly different take on

353

why it was important to do this.

354

The point of getting three sponsors is

so that somebody can't just blindside

355

the whole rest of the council with

some legislation that they're just

356

bringing up to make a point because

they want to have an argument.

357

But it's also hopefully we'll make

the legislation More baked by the

358

time it gets out of committee.

359

And I don't know, maybe I'm biased

because I really don't like how fast we

360

try to get things through most of the

time, but we have had some legislation

361

passed that really wasn't totally baked

and then we've had to bring it back for

362

amendments afterwards and changes and

that's a waste of people's time and it's

363

also embarrassing and I think that that's

kind of what we're What we're trying

364

to avoid is these more petty, spouty

arguments and also bringing forward

365

legislation when it's not really ready.

366

And then hopefully it will also foster

some collaboration between council

367

members before they bring stuff forward.

368

So that, that reminded me of the total

context of the conversation I had

369

with council member Klitschke that

brought up also doing the sort of two

370

weeks in advance for agenda items.

371

She really hates how quickly they

pass legislation and it feels

372

like we just heard her say it.

373

So being sort of maximally fair to

the progressives on this, is it fair

374

to say that if this, the intent of

doing all of these changes would be

375

to have more of that deliberation,

including public testimony, happen

376

at the committee meetings as opposed

to doing it all on Monday nights?

377

Yeah, I do think that is the The holistic

argument that they're trying to make

378

the sticking point that I always land

on though is that I have been at council

379

meetings that have gone until 11 because

40 people decided a legislative item

380

was important to them and they each

got three minutes to come speak on this

381

and The way this works, 15 total people

could testify at a committee meeting

382

for two minutes each, so 30 minutes

maximum of testimony on an agenda.

383

And, and back to the previous conversation

about whether or not people can

384

actually make it to these meetings,

it's, it's, Good that they're allowing

385

these committee meetings to have public

comment at them, but if they're still

386

happening in the middle of the workday,

then somebody who gets off at 5 p.

387

m.

388

would have to take off time off

of work to make that happen.

389

So it's, it's not exactly

like a straight across trade.

390

Right.

391

And you heard Kitty talk about that

idea of collaboration, and I don't have

392

any pretty recorded clips from him,

but I was texting with Council Member

393

Paul Dillon about this slate of changes

because he was in and out of meetings,

394

and he told me that this change to three

sponsors was actually his idea, and

395

he wanted to spark more collaboration.

396

He wanted, cross line sign offs

on things, which is what we did.

397

I think there's some fairness to that.

398

I also think when you look at this

piece of legislation that would

399

change this rule, it currently only

has two sponsors and they're both

400

from the progressive super majority.

401

So even on this slate of rule changes,

they didn't like collaborate or cross

402

pollinate or but here's what the

opposition has to say about that.

403

And it got a little bit fiery.

404

Here is council member Bingle.

405

What about the collaboration argument?

406

Yeah, that's crap.

407

And I hope that, that that's

what goes in the article.

408

Because, again, like I said,

you're talking to me about rules,

409

I don't actually know the version

of the rules we're talking about.

410

Because, they do not collaborate with us.

411

They don't have to collaborate with us.

412

Now, Zach and I have partnered

on things in the past, sure.

413

Right?

414

Paul and I may partner on

something in the future.

415

But, on anything contentious There will

be no collaboration on the slam dunk

416

yeah, we're going to fund you sports.

417

Of course, Lily and I are

going to get together, right?

418

And those are great things.

419

And I truly appreciate her support

and her leadership on that.

420

And I think that's fantastic.

421

But again, only contentious issues.

422

There will be no collaboration.

423

And it's easy to say, guys,

just collaborate when you

424

have a super majority, right?

425

You have, you can have something

pass on partisan lines.

426

I cannot.

427

I am forced to collaborate, you are not,

and so it's, it's different, it's just

428

different, it's obviously different.

429

And of course, council member

Zappone would again say elections

430

have consequences, and I would

normally totally agree with that.

431

The thing that makes this really

interesting and different is

432

this geographic split that we

have on our current council.

433

Right.

434

And I do think Council

Member Cathcart gets to that.

435

It's also pretty representative of

whether they're going to essentially try

436

to broadly silence District 1 from, from

being able to bring ideas and policy

437

that, that our constituents want to see.

438

They are effectively

making that impossible.

439

There has been very little

conversation on this.

440

In fact, they just jammed it in the

rules without talking to either Jonathan

441

or myself as of going to this point.

442

Three coast or the three sponsor

rule, and they've got a super

443

majority with five votes.

444

And so the only compromising, or

the only collaborating they have

445

to do and frankly have been willing

to do, has been amongst themselves.

446

And so I believe that this will

effectively end our ability to, to truly

447

and properly represent our district.

448

So we should probably move

along a little bit soon, but.

449

This may shock our listeners, but you are

a human who lives in a home Aaron Sellers,

450

and your home happens to be in District 1.

451

So you're one of the constituents

who would be impacted by this.

452

So, setting aside your reporter

hat for a second talk to me as

453

a constituent of District 1.

454

Like, how does this make you feel?

455

Yeah, I have a complicated relationship

with this, I had a hard time getting

456

Council Member Michael Kafkart to talk

to me at first when I took this job

457

and I can't remember if we said this on

air, but like when, when Lisa Brown beat

458

Nadine Woodward and was the new mayor.

459

The job I gave you was befriending both of

your specific conservative council members

460

to have that opposition voice in range.

461

And it, it was a lot easier to do for

Bengal than it was for Cathcart, right?

462

Yeah and, and one of the tactics that

I took was, I got a little frustrated,

463

but eventually I was like, Michael,

I am one of your constituents.

464

I live in your district.

465

I, I live in the Logan neighborhood.

466

I face a lot of the issues that

you say are important to you.

467

You should talk to me.

468

And, and now our relationship

is much less contentious.

469

I can text him about almost anything and

get an answer and I, I do think that one

470

of the advantages of this job has been

that as a reporter, they know that I

471

will always accurately represent them.

472

Whether or not they accurately represent

My personal interests or needs as

473

a person is a little up in the air.

474

I disagree with both of them a lot.

475

I'm a renter.

476

I've watched my rent climb quite

a bit just in the last two years.

477

And I think council members, maybe like

Paul Dillon or Kitty Klitski or Lily

478

Navarrete, do a better job of representing

my needs, especially as a renter, and

479

Cathcart and Bingle, were some of the

lone votes in opposition against policies

480

that did materially make my life better.

481

And that's one of the, we were talking

about this before we came on air, that's

482

one of the kind of the weirdly beautiful

things that I hadn't really thought about

483

with this, the council district versus

people having different affinities.

484

It's You are directly represented by,

represented by Cathcart and Bingle

485

as a, as a resident of District 1,

but we all have different vibes,

486

some of, people in District 1 are

renters, people are homeowners.

487

And so it is an opportunity for

you, as, all of us as voters to feel

488

represented across the, the spectrum.

489

Yeah.

490

And also, I think They deserve to be

able to fight for the people of their

491

district, and they deserve to be able

to have that fight in public, where

492

constituents, like me, if I hypothetically

wanted to take the night off and testify,

493

can go tell them how something actually

impacts them, rather than having this

494

legislation die quietly in committee.

495

And there have been things there is, we

did our Politicraw, And one of the issues

496

was that the bus route was on detour

and was all of a sudden only coming once

497

an hour instead of once a half an hour.

498

And it got us, pretty behind schedule.

499

And Bingo looked at me and made

the case that this is why I

500

should be on the STA board because

this happened in my district.

501

I had no idea this was here.

502

I got a chance to look at this

bus stop that's in a very weird

503

place and like on an intersection

that is unsafe for bicyclists.

504

I got to see this is my district.

505

These are the consequences that

impact the people who live here.

506

And I'm not on the SDA board.

507

I can't talk for you and your

interests in this district.

508

And, regardless of whether it's Bingle

and Cathcar and their politics, or Council

509

Member Ziponen Klitzke from District 3, or

Dylan and Navarrete from District 2, they

510

should be able to bubble up concerns for

the people of their district, things that

511

might impact just one geographic region,

like the moratorium in Latah Valley, or

512

the 29th street pedestrian designation.

513

Otherwise, I do think there's an

argument to be made that it is

514

effectively silencing a region.

515

Unless those if it were to change

and those committee meetings got

516

drastically better attended and

drastically more visibility I

517

mean, we're at all these committee

meetings usually But even you don't

518

Probably two thirds three fourths and

I attend virtually 90 percent of the

519

time I go We got to move on two quick

things that before we go when is this

520

gonna be voted on likely next Monday?

521

It was scheduled for next Monday I think

it's possible it gets deferred based

522

off of all of the arguments around this.

523

Because we just threw the power of

social media right before we came on.

524

We decided not to change this entire

segment that you just listened to

525

for almost 30 minutes based on a

single, I guess it was a tweet.

526

It was an Instagram post.

527

From Paul Dillon.

528

From Paul Dillon, what did it say?

529

It said, for those following this,

Some meetings will still be on

530

Mondays or something like that.

531

So it sounds like maybe the

pushback has resulted in meetings

532

not moving off of Mondays.

533

Not just because we're lazy

and it was the last minute.

534

We decided to still have the whole

conversation because that's just one

535

council person's social media post.

536

It might, it might still happen,

but it also I think is a really good

537

conversation around how rule changes.

538

That not everybody's going to take the

time to dig into could really materially

539

change the function of the, the office and

how people are able to interact with it.

540

Yeah, and also, do you think Cathcart

and Bingle know that meetings have, are,

541

are now just going to stay on Mondays?

542

Did anybody communicate with them?

543

I don't know, because I didn't get

a text from either of them saying

544

that meetings are staying on Mondays.

545

They're at the, the, the whim

of the Instagram algorithm,

546

whether or not they're seeing

Councilmember Dillon's tweet.

547

Instas.

548

I don't know.

549

All right.

550

So on that note, segment two.

551

Aaron Hedge.

552

Liberty Lakes City Council, we've, we've

written about this a number of times.

553

Liberty Lake is one of the places

And uniquely, one of the non school

554

districts that's been having some, a

lot of controversy around its library,

555

what sort of books should be in it, who

and how should books be censored, should

556

they be censored at all and something

happened at the city council meeting the

557

other day that we wanted to chat about.

558

So why don't we start there, give

me maybe a little bit of background

559

on what's happened to this point,

and then talk about the library

560

trustee, Kim Gerard, being censored.

561

I guess her term was up and was going

to need to be re, but basically,

562

they asked her not to return.

563

Yeah, so this is a, it's the

latest iteration in a years long

564

series of controversies that

565

When a Liberty Lake

resident named Aaron Zasada.

566

Challenged a book that was in the, the

Liberty Lake Library called Genderqueer.

567

It's the, it's the, it's the top book

listed by the American Library Association

568

that's been challenged in recent years.

569

And it's, that's part of a

bigger national conversation.

570

But this kind of, it, it spurred this

series of events where The library

571

board of trustees had to clarify

its policy to, to reassert itself

572

as the final arbiter of what goes

into the library and what basically

573

what appears on the library shelves.

574

This is a pretty nerdy, but

unlike other Places like Spokane

575

has a library district, so it's

a separate body from the city.

576

There's maybe some city funding and

stuff, but the trustees of the Spokane

577

City Library are not at the City

Council of Spokane doesn't get to

578

decide who is on the library board.

579

Liberty Lake, though, is a municipal

library, and they only have one location,

580

but there's the, their city council has

a lot more say over who gets to be a

581

trustee on the library board and who gets

to control the policies of the board.

582

Is that right?

583

Yeah, and I think that there, I

think there are eight other similar

584

districts in the entire state, so it's

not most libraries are not like this.

585

Yeah.

586

But the conservatives on the city

council didn't like that the trustees

587

had taken control over that process.

588

And last year, they instituted a new

rule that gave the city council, rather

589

than the library board, the final

say of what appears on the shelves.

590

Right.

591

And This this trustee, Kim Girard who's

a long time librarian, has 30 years of

592

experience in the industry in school

libraries and library administration.

593

And people regard her as just knowing

libraries really well, in and out.

594

And they, the, the library

expressed a lot of appreciation

595

for her, her her trusteeship.

596

They decided on Tuesday night that they

were gonna vote her off of the trustees.

597

And a couple of the conservatives on

the council told me that it, that, that

598

their decision to vote against her being

on the trustees stems directly from that

599

series of controversies and Gerard's

advocacy for books staying in the library

600

and for, Yeah, our story on this is

going to be forthcoming, but we're so

601

you're in the process of reporting this.

602

You've been doing that today.

603

So you were able to talk

to Van Orman and Cargill.

604

And I think we've got a quote that sellers

is going to pull up here in a second.

605

But yeah, give us a sense of, or

do you want us to play the quote,

606

play the clip first, or do you

want to chat a little bit more?

607

I just want to introduce so, so Chris

Cargill is the he was one of the, the

608

main drivers of that ordinance that gave

the City Council decision making power

609

of what appears on the library shelves.

610

So he's a, he's a Liberty

Lake City Councilman.

611

He's a Liberty Lake City Councilman.

612

He's also the founder of a

conservative think tank called the,

613

the Mountain States And that center

614

Yeah, they were, they acted in

615

A lot of think tanks did the same, but

yeah, they were part of that project.

616

Just trying to advance their ideas.

617

And was Cargill specifically

opposed to the book Genderqueer

618

appearing on the shelves?

619

Do you remember the context of that?

620

If I'm remembering correctly I think

that Cargill, the, the, the, the city

621

council did take a vote whether to

keep that, that book on the shelves.

622

Cargill voted to get rid of the book.

623

But that was a minority vote and

the book is still on the shelves.

624

Cargill's now the mayor pro,

pro tem, meaning he sits in for

625

the mayor when the mayor, Chris

Kaminskis, when she's not there.

626

She was not, she was not,

yeah, yeah, essentially.

627

She was not there on Tuesday and

she had recommended Gerard for it.

628

Do you think her, with the,

how the vote shook out, would

629

Kaminskis vote have done anything?

630

Did she get to vote?

631

What is their mayor?

632

Because their mayor is like

part of the council, right?

633

Or do they have strong mayor?

634

I'm actually not sure if, if

she would take a vote on it.

635

I know that she recommended Gerard,

so it would, it would strike me as

636

maybe a little weird, but I'm not

100 percent on, on how that works.

637

But she wasn't, she wasn't there

on, on, on Tuesday night, so

638

she didn't get to see the vote.

639

But yeah, I, I guess, so, so, Van

Orman and Cargill both told me

640

that, that they voted no based on,

on this based on this series of

641

controversies and, and we can play that

quote from Cargill now if you want.

642

My vote was based on the fact that I

think we need new blood on the library

643

boards and people who can bring new ideas.

644

And it was nothing more than that.

645

I think we've seen over the past year

or two some of the challenges that

646

the board has had with us and that

we've had with the board as well.

647

And my feeling was that we needed to have

a clean slate on some of those issues and

648

try to find folks who would be able to

inject some new ideas into the process.

649

Okay.

650

And I think you're referring

specifically to the debates over,

651

first, the books that were in the

library and then the, the city council

652

taking over control of the library.

653

Am I correct about that?

654

Yes, I wouldn't characterize it

as the city council taking control

655

of the one we didn't, but yes,

it is those particular issues.

656

I wouldn't characterize taking control

as taking control, but, but yes, other

657

than that, I don't, I didn't, I don't

quibble with your characterization.

658

Right.

659

So let's talk about, we've already

talked about the background to

660

some extent and the fact that that,

that despite all this hubbub, the

661

inciting incident, the inciting book

Genderqueer, is still on shelves.

662

Do we have any sense yet of

what this means going forward?

663

Is the, is Liberty Lake City Council gonna

sort of start working their way into a

664

much more conservative slate of library

trustees or do we just not know yet?

665

I mean, it's unclear right now

that there is a conservative

666

majority on, on the city council.

667

It's four to three.

668

And the sense that I got from the

conversations that I had with with Van

669

Orman, Cargill, and another, one of the

conservatives, Mike Kennedy, was that

670

they They, they, they want to have,

I think that they just want to have

671

more control over, over what happens.

672

In the library, Kennedy said during

the meeting, and I don't have audio of

673

this, but Kennedy said what we don't

need is competitors on the board.

674

What we need is completers

to help us move forward.

675

When individuals come forward and

engage in name calling or threaten

676

legal action, it diminishes.

677

And that was perceived as a, an

accusation against Gerard for

678

apparently having threatened a lawsuit.

679

She spoke later in the meeting and,

and denied having made that threat.

680

Interestingly, I talked to Kennedy

later on the phone and he said that

681

he wasn't talking about Kim Gerard.

682

And so I asked him Who he was

talking about and why he voted

683

against Kim Girard, if that wasn't

the reason, if it was somebody else.

684

And he said no comment on

both of those questions.

685

So the folks who were on the other

side of this, the people who were

686

outvoted the people who wanted to keep

Girard, what did they have to say?

687

Yeah, I think their point is

that they, they are angry.

688

They're still stewing over this

whole controversy over the, over

689

the board trying to, you know,

clarifying that it had final say

690

over what appears in the library.

691

They're still upset at the board for that.

692

And I asked Van Orman if that had any

implications for future votes on board

693

members, and she wouldn't comment

on that either, but the sense that

694

I got is, Cargill said, we need new

blood and I think they kinda wanna,

695

Clean house, it seems all right.

696

We're looking forward to that story

coming in the next day or so and Just

697

continue following this stuff as we go

along like this is an increasingly This

698

has been an issue for a while, and not

just at Liberty Lake, but in Meade and

699

Central Valley School District, which

also has some overlap with Liberty Lake

700

and Deer Park actually school district

as well, close to where I grew up.

701

And it doesn't seem especially with

the outcome of the national election,

702

there might be some further things

happening at the federal level.

703

It doesn't seem like this is

something that's going to go away.

704

This fight's not going away anytime soon.

705

Doesn't seem like it.

706

Yeah, I think I think this is

going to be a topic of conversation

707

going forward for a while.

708

All right, we got about 10 minutes left.

709

We're going to go through a quick

grab bag of various stories.

710

We're gonna see how many we get through.

711

We put them in order of our

personal interest on things.

712

We're just going to go

until we run out of time.

713

First up, we got this new,

this dump, this tranche.

714

I love the word tranche.

715

I'm going to say it as

much as I possibly can.

716

This, we finally have a dashboard

that has somewhat comprehensive data

717

on our unhoused neighbors in Spokane.

718

And we were just sort of clicking through

beforehand Oh, this is interesting.

719

This is interesting.

720

So.

721

Aaron, what was your, what was your,

the first thing that stuck out to you in

722

terms of what we know based on, and we're

going to provide a link to this in the,

723

on our website, which we'll talk about.

724

The show notes.

725

Okay.

726

So the first thing that I noticed

is that while Spokane is 82 percent

727

white, according to the most

recent census data I could find.

728

Spokane's homeless population is only 64.

729

8 percent white, meaning that people of

color are wildly overrepresented in the

730

unhoused population here in Spokane.

731

The dashboard breaks down some other

demographics as well, by gender and age,

732

and again this just came out so we don't

have time to dig through everything

733

and come up with what it all means,

but that number seemed pretty stark to

734

me when I was clicking through this.

735

For example, I mean, black folks make

up about 2 percent of the population

736

in Spokane, they're almost 10 percent

of the in house population, that was

737

the number that really stuck out to me.

738

And I can't remember via the census

and, people count different things.

739

So I don't even remember where multiracial

falls on the spectrum in the census,

740

but multiracial folks make up 13

percent of the in house population,

741

which is, that's a huge number.

742

Yeah.

743

The other thing that really stood out

to me was around emergency sheltering.

744

So one of the things that I am constantly

seeing in city council meetings.

745

is just the sheer amount of money we spend

on emergency sheltering, specifically the

746

Trent shelter, just massive budget suck.

747

And looking at this data and I mean,

I think this is something we maybe

748

intuitively knew, but this gives

us some numbers to point to sure.

749

Emergency shelter is

extremely bad at doing.

750

anything but giving people

a roof for a night only 32.

751

9 percent of people utilizing

emergency shelter exited to

752

permanent or transitional, or

I think just permanent housing.

753

I'm not sure the dashboard

broke down transitional housing.

754

So part of what this dashboard, just to

give a little bit of extra context is

755

trying to do is understand how well this,

this continuum of service, the system is.

756

Big system is working at not just again,

protecting people from the elements,

757

but getting folks back into housing.

758

And I think hopefully that over time,

we're going to understand more about

759

where the points of departure are

to actually get in a productive way.

760

So you can exit the shelter system,

both just to go back on the street,

761

into a tent or something or your

car, or you can exit into a more

762

stable and permanent form of housing.

763

And this actually, this data does a

pretty good job of breaking down like the,

764

the broad spectrum of housing support.

765

It's 10 categories from basically that

emergency shelter thing to a somewhat

766

permanent supported housing solution.

767

Like you might find it one of the haven,

the Catholic Charities Havens, right?

768

Right.

769

And there is some issues.

770

Like I was actually talking to a homeless

man at my bus stop this morning who was

771

trying to get money for a bus ticket.

772

I was like, Oh, I'm getting on the bus.

773

Like I can just buy your bus ticket.

774

And he was like, no, no, a

bus ticket to South Carolina.

775

Wow.

776

And I was like, Oh, okay.

777

Yeah, sorry.

778

But he told me that his mom lives there,

and he is looking to reconnect with

779

her, and that it's warmer, and so he's

just trying to get money to get back

780

out of Spokane, but, I think looking

at this data, if he succeeds in getting

781

money to get back to South Carolina,

this guy will just drop off the map

782

of the Spokane data collection like he

might have been counted as somebody who

783

used a shelter And we won't know what

ultimately happened to him because he

784

just left the city and won't be like

recorded in any of this data tracking.

785

So I do think there's some questions

about stuff like that when you're

786

trying to account for the entire number

of people who are unhoused, where

787

they're going, what they're doing.

788

There is always going to be

a little portion of people

789

who fall through the cracks.

790

But having said that, and that's totally

true, having said that though, this is,

791

this data, it just at first glance is

so much better than anything we had.

792

So it's is it going to be perfect?

793

Absolutely not.

794

There's always going

to be stuff like that.

795

No, people, we And we actually, we've got

to call in to the data manager to actually

796

figure out a little bit more because we

don't want to report any of these numbers

797

as super hard because we don't know if,

there's three, 3, 500 people in this

798

system that I'm looking at right now.

799

We don't know if any of those are

duplicates or what because, again,

800

this is, this is It's been frustrating

that we don't have this information.

801

It's also, though, I can only imagine

how difficult it would have been to

802

compile this information, because, I mean,

we, the, the shelter system over, when

803

they were doing the, the point in time

availability for Are there even shelter

804

beds available the last couple of years?

805

Service providers couldn't

even really keep that updated

806

realistically, very well or frequently.

807

We were constantly calling on people.

808

It was like, Oh, Trent says it has open

beds, but people are getting turned away.

809

I can't, we did maybe three

different times of running that

810

down over the course of track.

811

So we're like, I'm on a list serve where

maybe the website would say we're full.

812

We have no beds.

813

But somebody from one of those shelters

would email this listserv that's

814

we actually have 10 beds tonight.

815

You can direct people here.

816

So there's all of these ways that

information was just sort of slipping

817

through cracks or not getting

accounted for in data correctly.

818

And I think that this is like

a pretty phenomenal first step.

819

It's a collaboration between

both the city of Spokane and the

820

Spokane regional health district.

821

Totally.

822

And as we go, I think we're, again,

we're, we're going to chat with.

823

The data manager of this is as soon as

we can that it's the somebody who works

824

at the Spokane Regional Health District,

which again is cool that it's at the

825

regional level because homelessness

is not just a Spokane problem.

826

It's a right, but the numbers are

coming from the city's homeless

827

management information system

and are being so yeah, totally.

828

That's largely because there are no

shelters outside of the city, right?

829

So at least hopefully at some point

somebody grows a conscience and gets

830

at the county and gets serious about.

831

On how stuff, but one of the, one of the

data points that I thought was really,

832

really Actually terrifying to me was one

of the, the, one of the views in this

833

dashboard is about how long people have

been at various stages of the system

834

with the permanent supportive housing.

835

So folks who might have mental health

needs or addiction needs going to a

836

supported facility like Hope House

is a good, is an example of one in

837

most of the Catholic Charities Havens

where you've got caseworkers, people

838

to help you through either your,

mental health struggle or through

839

your through an addiction struggle.

840

You would expect people to stay in

those systems a long time because it

841

might take years to kick that those

habits or whatever So those folks like

842

the maximum time for those places was

like 1, 300 days Which is like five

843

years in some cases and when I this

is a long time ago I'm recalling on

844

reporting from two years ago when and

when I covered the opening of Hope House.

845

They said We expect, this is

the Volunteers of America run

846

that shelter, they said, we

expect people to never leave.

847

There's, that's part of the contingency

that we are planning for is this idea that

848

there are some folks who, who's either

mental illness or, or some potential

849

disability is so acute, we're not

going to be able to find them housing.

850

So some percentage of our people,

we're going to need, we're

851

expecting to be here forever.

852

That's not the case with emergency

shelters though, and there was at

853

least one person, this is why I want

to get a sense of the other data, that

854

there was the maximum stay in a in an

emergency shelter night by night, which

855

is basically you, you don't have a fixed

bed, you just come in when you need it,

856

was 1867 days, that's like almost five

full years that somebody was engaging

857

with an emergency shelter service

as before getting moved up the line.

858

And again, I don't know how many people

that was, but at least one person was

859

in there for that length of time, which

isn't just a tremendous, we've heard

860

from so many different people that they

don't even want to go to track for one

861

night, let alone live in an emergency

shelter situation for close to five years.

862

Yeah.

863

Yeah.

864

Yeah.

865

So we're going to be spending

more time reviewing those numbers.

866

If you want to look at them yourself, if

you search Spokane homeless dashboard, it

867

is the first results come up on Google.

868

We'll also be linking it

on our show page on KYRS.

869

And if you have any questions

about the data, comments, thoughts,

870

observations, things that stick out

to you that you maybe want to hear

871

us talk about, you can email those

comments to us at free range at KYRS.

872

org.

873

I have one quick piece of info unrelated

to that, that I want to bubble up.

874

Okay.

875

Right before I came down here,

I was watching the recorded

876

version of the Spokane Regional

Health District board meeting.

877

And a piece of news that I've been

following for the last couple of

878

months, at least since the summer,

was this feasibility study that the

879

Spokane Regional Health District was

doing to determine whether or not

880

it was a good idea to put in place.

881

privatize their public health

opioid treatment program.

882

We did, we partnered on a town

hall to do this, to get the word

883

out and see what people thought.

884

It's, it's been a big part of what we've

done on, yeah, a lot of ongoing coverage.

885

And for the last couple of months,

this item keeps getting deferred.

886

But they made a somewhat more permanent

decision at this month's meeting,

887

which was that they are going to

effectively freeze it in place.

888

It's not indefinitely deferred, but

they're sort of, they won't hold

889

any votes on it until the end of,

890

So they're giving it a couple months.

891

They want to do data tracking

and they're also, it sounds like

892

following some legislation through

state ledge that may in fact mandate

893

that public health providers start

doing opioid treatment services.

894

So I need to look into that.

895

That just got dropped on me in

the middle of the day when I

896

was trying to prep for this.

897

If that legislation passes, that would

be a massive change, not for Spokane, it

898

would actually be, I think, what, there's

39 counties in Washington and only two

899

counties do their Tacoma and Spokane.

900

Yeah, Pierce County,

Tacoma, that's, and then us.

901

So that would basically require the

whole rest of the state to conform to a

902

model that our Spokane Regional Health

District is considering getting rid of.

903

That would be a seismic change

for the state level, yeah.

904

We do have three other things on

our little grab bag, but Just really

905

quickly, I wanted to say one thing.

906

There were two fires overnight that

didn't, we're talking about numbers

907

of unhoused people in the thousands.

908

I just wanted to point out that those

numbers don't it's not an army of a

909

thousand people showing up unhoused,

it's one or two people at a time.

910

And so, there was a fire at the

Ridpath a couple days ago, and then

911

there was a fire in the building

that houses Boo Radley's And the

912

Ridpath fire displaced nine people.

913

We don't know how permanently.

914

The Boo Radley's fire, I don't know

who, how many people were displaced,

915

but one person I know specifically,

a person named Derek is on the street

916

with his dog right now because of a

fire that took place in a, I think these

917

are all affordable housing situation.

918

So these are folks who often

Don't have anywhere else to

919

go if they lose this housing.

920

So it's, it's good to

have the big numbers.

921

We always want the big numbers to

understand the population trends, but

922

each of those data points as a person,

and I never want us to forget that.

923

So, that's it for us this week.

924

Aaron, you want to play us out?

925

Yeah.

926

Do you have questions

about local government?

927

Are you wondering who to complain to

about an issue in your neighborhood?

928

Wondering which agency

governs certain things?

929

Wondering why something is

happening or how much it costs?

930

Email us at freerange at kyrs.

931

org with your questions and we'll

try and answer them next week.

932

I'm Erin, that's Luke, see you later.