In this week’s episode, Christopher Jenkins, with a guest appearance by Phil Ewell, interviews the talented musicians who performed in the Theorizing African American Music conference opening concert.

**A note from this episode's author: It should be noted that while some of the conversation invokes the term "Afro-diasporic, it should be noted that this concert emphasized just one facet of the African diaspora, which is enormously diverse and extends far beyond the forms presented on this concert. Hopefully, this project will be in conversation with other concert projects that center other facets of the African diaspora in defiance of typical genre partitioning.**

This episode was produced by Megan Lyons.

SMT-Pod Theme music by Zhangcheng Lu; Closing music "hnna" by David Voss. Undine Smith Moore's "Before I'd Be A Slave" is performed by Geoffrey Burleson. For supplementary materials on this episode and more information on our authors and composers, check out our website: https://smt-pod.org/episodes/season02/.

[SMT-Pod opening theme music playing]

Welcome to SMT-Pod! The premiere audio publication of the Society for Music Theory. In this week’s episode, Christopher Jenkins, with a guest appearance by Phil Ewell, interviews the talented musicians who performed in the Theorizing African American Music conference opening concert.

[Bumper music]

So my name is Chris Jenkins, I use the pronouns he/him/his, I'm an associate dean at Oberlin Conservatory and the Conservatory Liaison to our office of equity, diversity, and inclusion. And in June of 2022, obviously, Phil Ewell and I arranged a conference on analyzing African-American and African diasporic music, held at Case Western Reserve University, and the Cleveland Institute of Music. We were inspired by Susan McClary, and while we had a focus on Classical music, this conference was intended to have a broader reach and range. And an important component of the conference was going to be a concert showcasing the kinds of music that we would actually be talking about. So, we spent the second-half of 2021, actually into 2022, planning the conference.

Because I live in the area, I live in Shaker Heights, Cleveland, and I have connections to local musicians, I was tasked with organizing this concert. So, we were pretty limited in funds, we had financial and kind donations from Case Western, Oberlin, CIM, the University of Kentucky School of Music, and some generous individuals. But, we couldn't pay for transportation or housing, so we had to use local talent. But, fortunately, there are a lot of music schools in the area, so we had some good options. And, also, we really wanted to present different styles, to present the diverse range of classical compositions but also jazz and any other styles that we could program.

Obviously, most African diasporic music is not classical. But, we were also limited to performer availability during a busy season of music festivals. And, ultimately, the concert had a large range; there were African-American spiritual arrangements by Moses Hogan, by a soprano, Lydia Bangura, but then also spiritual arrangements for cello and piano. And those were by composer Dolores White, who is from the area. They were performed by her daughter Dianna White-Gould, on piano, and the cellist was Khari Joyner.

Those pieces actually were written by Dolores White to play with her husband, Donald White, who was the first African-American cellist in the Cleveland Orchestra. So there's some history there that's kind of interesting. There were works also by George Walker, who is an Oberlin graduate, and Adolphus Hailstork. And, also, I should mention, a performance of two solo works for cello by Jeffrey Mumford, who is a student of Elliot Carter and in a totally different style by the cellist Darrett Adkins.

So those are multiple Black composers, all writing in very different styles, and that was the first half of the concert. The second half of the concert featured a jazz quartet, the Theron Brown Quartet, with Zaire Darden on drums, Tommy Lehman on trumpet, and Jordan McBride on bass. So the reception of this concert was really amazing. I mean, many folks said they had never seen a concert like this, where the focus was just on Black music, where most of the performers were Black, but especially where jazz and classical styles were played together.

Because there is such a siloing of styles in our concerts, almost as if either style would contaminate the other, right? And also, there is this misguided search for purities, sometimes in either discipline, classical or jazz, and especially the idea common among classical musicians that they are somehow higher-up and better-off than practitioners of jazz, hip-hop, and other African diasporic musics.

So I believe there's really some enormous potential in this model, especially at a time when the standard models of classical music presenters are under so much stress to present different styles on the same concert, to program thematically, in ways that allow for that type of programming. And part of the issue I think has to do with the perceived incompatibility of reception styles, that is what the audience is supposed to do: that they're supposed to behave differently, right? But there's no reason that a classical music audience can't be allowed to respond to a classical performance the way a jazz audience responds to a jazz performance.

["Little David Play on Your Harp" from three Spirituals for Cello and Piano arr. Dolores White, performed by Khari Joyner (cello) and Dianna White-Gould (piano)]

So, Khari, thank you so much for joining us, joining me, in this conversation about your experience at the concert for the conference that is now from last summer!

Thanks for having me, I really really enjoyed that experience, and still reminisce on it, so thank you!

I'm so glad, that really makes me feel great, I have to say. And, I wondered if you could speak a bit to your experience in terms of getting recruited for this concert, your experience playing on the concert, and I say this from the perspective of someone whose, one of my biggest concerns for this concert, because I was both Producer and Operations all things, was the parking passes [chuckles]. So, the genuine experience in music of the participants and the audience was something that I was focused on and felt very distant from. So, I would love to hear more about how it actually was.

Yes, absolutely. Well you know, I really, kind of the initial process, when you reached out to me about it, you know, when I saw the email about this inaugural conference, speaking about music, Western music, so to speak, or just kind of the Western art form. But looking at it from the lens of the African diaspora and what people from the African diaspora really bring in to the classical music sort-of genre. I think it was very, sort of, compelling, it really drew me in.

And so, I think the idea of a having a performance as part of the opening session or even just kind of part of the initial process of the conference was a really effective way even just initially to just show that, you know, this is a great way of really bringing something that is definitely needed and useful in the study of, and in the idea of, in how one learns about this type of music and how one, especially on a scholarly level, can really approach it. And so, I think, when I was there, I remember attending a bit of the plenary session, or opening session, for multiple musicologists, and historians, and theorists, Black musicologists, and historians, and theorists. In this world that really gave a lot of time and their own energy, but also just sharing their knowledge, was just so impactful.

And then the performance part, I thought was really neat because hearing so many genres like jazz, classical, and then kind of mixing the performers with vocalists, instrumentalists, kind of on one program, I thought was really really effective. And that to me felt important to hear so many musics and composers, some of which I didn't know much about before this. Jeffrey Mumford is a great example. And then, of course, it was a another opportunity served for me to even promote and perform works of composers that others didn't know about like Adolphus Hailstork, and some of the spirituals I did with dear colleague Dianna White-Gould, of her mother. So these kinds of things, all as parts, made up such a powerful whole. The sum of all these parts made a really great whole that I think the audience and many attendees will never forget. I think it was very very powerful.

Great! That's so great. And, you know, it's so odd to me hearing these kind of response, that many people had these kinds of responses, and I feel like if these responses are so profound to this really simple event, this single night of less than 90 minutes of music, I think, maybe 120 (probably not), why don't we do this more often? I mean, what is your opinion about the idea of these mixed, African-diasporic concerts? Why don't we have concerts where there is jazz, that being also a problematic word that we should acknowledge right? But that's the word we have. Jazz, classical, other genres that are African-diasporic, why is it such an issue that we could do that?

Yea, you know, I think it's such a great question, and I think it really comes down to so many different things. I think that, you know, there's so much in terms of uncovering, first of all, uncovering the works of so many different composer and so many different art forms. And I think, with a lot of things, I learned very early on from my family, because my parents came from really a science background in terms of their work and also just what they bring. I grew up watching my mom really tackle so many different feats and accomplishments but also things like boundaries or walls that she would hit in terms of Black STEM professionals: chemists, engineers, all these kinds of things.

But also, as an academic and a professor for so many years, kind of hearing her always give wisdom about how certain things sometimes get maybe swept under the rug or just otherwise not known. A lot of it comes down to exposure and really needing to know about so many different people. And I think that, I always think that, there's so many people that we don't know about. The whole idea of the history that you've never read, and all these kinds of things. And I think a lot of it also has to deal with unpacking maybe traumas or certain things that people maybe went through or otherwise had to endure to be able to get to where they are.

And especially with different kinds of genres, I think naturally with, at least in art forms, there can be a way of sometimes compartmentalizing between jazz, classical, and rock. But sometimes when we realize that for one people, for the voice of African Americans or people of the African diaspora, there's a lot of music that actually is uniting but then it's how you find a way to combine it all in a very cohesive way, right? which is why I think this conference was so necessary, because it actually did show that, even though you have composers who are writing in the Western canon or tradition, they could be inspired, they could also take form the same African traditions that maybe jazz was founded off of. So I think -- A lot of it to is, I think, is in the classical sort of musical or Western art form. One can get a little bit myopic or just sort of narrow in terms of how they look at music because they are not really realizing that, wait, you know, even in the European tradition there is still borrowing from Africa or borrowing from the non-white forms or genres of music. And that includes even Eastern music, right?

So there's kind of this idea of like: we have have to first acknowledge that how do you combine East-West or any two different cultures. And then, once that acceptance or acknowledgement of having a holistic approach of actually joining different forms becomes realized, I think that's when you can begin to say ok, let's look at it from the standpoint of music from the African diaspora. So maybe it's just a matter of more of it needs to be done, and we need more people like you, I think, who can spearhead that idea. Because I very much feel the same way as far as wanting to - and I try to include that on concerts now in my programming. Its music of my own, but also how do I combine not just one type of genre in that.

[I. Allegro Moderato from Sonata for Solo Cello by Adolphus Hailstork. Performed by Khari Joyner (Cello)]

It's so odd because so many people had, not just positive reactions, it's beyond that. It really is a deep, internal response. And so, it's so odd because this is so easy for us to do. It really is! I mean come on. All that we did was schedule a concert with different types of African American diasporic music. That's it! We had serial music, we had jazz, we had spirituals arranged as art songs, we had art songs, we had everything! And, how can that be? It's so irregular, and so earth-shattering. And actually, for Black people, I have to say for us, what is it that has kept us apart and not allowed us to conceptualize all that together?

[II. Adagio from Sonata for Cello and Piano by George T. Walker. Performed by Khari Joyner (Cello)]

I'm Phil Ewell and I'm here with Lydia Bangura, and we're going to have a brief conversation on how she became involved with the concert at the Theorizing African American Music conference that took place in June of 2022 at Case Western. So, I had the great fortune of being a mentoring artist at the Atlantic Center for the Arts back in May of 2022. And I had well over 30 applicants, and it was really tough to whittle it down 6, which I had to do, and Lydia was one of the applicants! And she had this great application, she wanted to work on Florence Price among other things. And I chose her as one of my associate artists. So that's how I got to know Lydia down in New Smyrna Beach, Florida, near Daytona Beach.

And we had a great three weeks down there with our other associate artists, and there were maybe 20 or 30 total people down there. And I learned more about Lydia's performance acumen that she could both sing and play the viola. Which we did not hear because there was no viola down there, but the singing was there! At the last minute, one of our singers pulled out of the concert that we were preparing for this conference, and I thought to myself - maybe I should ask Lydia? But I don't quite know how she sings, because I hadn't heard. And I was able to find a really interesting recording online, and I kind of approached Lydia at that time. So maybe Lydia you can take it over from here and talk a little about yourself and tell how that exchange went and I'll jump back in when I need to.

Sure! Yes, so as Phil mentioned, my name is Lydia Bangura, I am currently a PhD student in music theory at the University of Michigan. I am also a soprano, my background is in classical vocal performance. I got my undergrad from Northern Arizona University, and a master's from Roosevelt University both in vocal performance. So, I was so excited to meet Phil at ACA, it was a really, really fantastic time of just rest and research and collaboration. It was really exciting and yes, I had forgotten all about this conference to be honest [chuckles from both Lydia and Phil]. I remember because it was such an interesting experience, a year earlier in summer of 2021, that summer when we all met on Zoom and had this big Zoom meeting with all the black theorists and musicologists and ethnomusicologists to talk about what this conference could possibly be. So I remember being invited to that Zoom, and I was like "oh my gosh, little old me, wow!" Because I had just gotten here at that point, so I was just excited to be included and in the room. And it was so great to virtually meet everybody. So I remember that happening and then it kind of faded from my memory.

And then once we were in Florida, and I remember, obviously, you were in the midst of not only helping us associate artists, but also putting the finishing touches on everything and managing all that from Florida. So I remember you talking about it and mentioning it, and I was like "oh yea that's supposed to happen sometime soon - should I go to that?" Maybe I could arrange to go to that because I had forgot that it was happening that summer. So then when Phil approached me and said hey, you know, somebody has dropped out of the opening concert and we're looking for somebody to sing, would you be interested? And I was really blown away by that, because, again, it was just like "me??" I just got here! And I had no idea that you had gone to my website and found that recording.

That was a Judith Weir piece, an a cappella piece, that I sang back in 2021. It was my final project for my master's. So, you know, I don't have too many videos of me singing out there, but that was one that I had on my website. So yeah, I didn't know that that had happened, and I didn't really know why you were asking me, I was just like oh okay, well that would be interesting! And, you know, I had forgotten about the conference and it was nice to have an opportunity or like a concrete reason to go other than it would be just a great time and a huge learning opportunity. So, yea!

Well I had to do my due diligence, Lydia, because we wanted to put together a really jamming concert [chuckles] and Chris Jenkins, my co-organizer, he and I talked on the phone once or twice because he was putting the concert together. Obviously, on this pod episode he's going to be doing most of the heavy lifting. And it was a fabulous concert. I might just add here that, in my opinion, Lydia kind of stole the show among many many fine performances. But, we did a bit of due diligence and both Chris and I watched this King Herald Saga video -

Chris watched it too?!

Oh yea! And we were both like yea, it's great, but it's not African American music necessarily, right? So I kept prodding Lydia "hey, do you have any - do you sing any music by African Americans or just African diasporic composers?" And Lydia was like well, why are you asking, and that's because I hadn't extended the invitation yet. I just wanted to know if you had something in your wheelhouse because we were literally like three weeks out, I think, from the conference. So I don't want you to go off and learn some big piece in like two weeks and then not have it be fulfilling for everybody, you included. And then you said "yes, I have some spirituals" and maybe you can talk a little about that.

Sure. So, I ended up performing a little set of Moses Hogan spirituals. This is funny because I had prepared these for my master's recital at Roosevelt University, but I never actually got to do my master's recital because of the pandemic. So, I was just kind of sitting on a lot of music, actually, that I never got to perform. I was going to do some Mozart, I was going to do some arias, and then I was going to do these Moses Hogan spirituals, but I never got to actually perform them because of the pandemic and because I didn't get to do my recital in 2021. So, when you asked "have you performed pieces by African American composers" I've done a couple of William Grant Still pieces, stuff like that - periphery stuff, you know, throughout my undergrad and my master's. But those were kind of the freshest things I had worked on and never got to actually perform. So that was a really exciting prospect to me, and then I was like "oh wait" I have this set that I never got to do and it would be really fun to perform them.

That's great! We were able to get you to the conference, pay you a little money, always good for grad students, struggling grad students [chuckling from both Phil and Lydia]. And like I said, I think Lydia really stole the show. So maybe we can listen to a little bit of that now.

["Let Us Break Bread Together" arr. by Moses hogan. Performed by Lydia Bangura (Soprano)]

Alright everyone, hey my name is Theron Brown, and I'm a jazz pianist.. I currently live in Akron, Ohio, where I teach at the University of Akron in the jazz department.

Cool, and you have a band that you play with as well, is that right?

Yea, I have my own band, the Theron Brown Trio. It consists of myself on piano, Zaire Darden on drums, and Jordan McBride on the bass.

So maybe you can talk a little bit about how you ended up getting involved in this concert?

It's actually a good question, how did I get involved in this concert? [chuckles].

I know from my perspective, I got in touch with Chris Coles, and then I think he connected us, or he recommended you, or he got in touch with you. Do you remember that at all?

Yea I do.

You know how gigs are, it's pretty hard to remember how things got started.

Yea, there is a lot of them and the connections, they can vary. But yea, actually I do remember, Chris [Coles] was like "hey man, I got this thing coming up and I can't make it. Was hoping you could put a group together for it." And he told me a bit about you. And it just seemed like it lined up with what I like to be involved in as far as, you know, organizations and educational front of things. So yea, I think, of course I trust my buddy Chris Coles. He's been a long time friend and an amazing musician.

Yea and you know, what was really special from my perspective, and I hope for the audience and I hope for you guys, was the opportunity to be involved with a concert that was cross-genre. That was not just classical or jazz, or not trying to be a concert of anything other than African diasporic music, African American music in particular. And I'm curious if you've had other opportunities to play on those kind of concerts? Or, if not, what that experience was like for you, if you have any recollection of it.

Yea, actually, I haven't done anything that was that, you know, focused on diversity. The first thing I noticed was there was a lot of people that looked like me, which was really cool. That are masters in that music. And that's not the stereotype that usually comes. Yea, myself, I'm a jazz musician, but I did get my master's in piano performance, which was classical music. Yea, it was just nice to see that representation. But not just representation, skilled, masterful, representation. And to have that kind of talent in on room, that kind of creativity, that kind of pride. You know, that is something that you can barely even put into words. It's a feeling, and to be a part of something like that, yea it's super special to me beyond measure.

When you think about it, it makes so little sense that we don't have opportunities to hear different genres of music that are inspired from the same core, that is African diasporic music. You know, we can't hear them all in the same place. Why shouldn't one be able to have spirituals played on the cello, arranged by a classical, Black classical, composer, and a jazz trio or jazz group on the same bill, right? What is the reason we can't do that? No one can really articulate what that is, but it's so firmly entrenched, it's so hard to imagine how we can do it otherwise, right?

Absolutely. And those the exact kind of boundaries that need to be broken down, and this is an example, I feel, to the educational field. Like "hey, you don't have to be afraid of this thing" We can advance in how we present concerts, we can advance in the repertoire. We can advance in how we present and messages that we want to be brought across that are relevant to today. Because at the end of the day, i mean, this music, all of it, is an art form. And people can have an opinion or not. But, the true - what the artist is supposed to stand for is a snapshot of the history of what's happening now. And we can't be afraid of that even if it does go against the grain of tradition or just the usual way of doing things to check boxes even. Let's break out of that and stir up the pot a little bit. And I think this shows that as an example to keep this going, definitely from an artist's perspective (maybe I'm a little biased). But I think community-wise, it sends a sense of comfort, something we need right now, which is change. So yea, this is good for the community and this is good for the institutions, education, all around, yea!

Is there anything else that you want to talk about or mention or that I forgot to ask about?

Other than just come encouraging words to everybody: keep doing it, do it from a good place in your heart, and just remember if you do it for something bigger than you, then it's probably going to be successful.

["Joyful Noise" by Theron Brown. Performed by Theron Brown (Piano); Zaire Darden (Drums); Tommy Lehman (Trumpet); Jordan McBride (Bass)]

[Spoken over SMT-Pod closing music]

The author of this episode would like to extend a sincere thank you to peer reviewer Kevin Holt. Special thanks to Phil Ewell, Lydia Bangura, Khari Joyner, and Theron Brown for their participation in this episode and for performing beautifully at the conference opening concert. Visit our website smt-pod.org for supplemental materials related to this episode and to learn how to submit an episode proposal. Join in on the conversation by tweeting your questions and comments @SMT_Pod. SMT Pod's theme music was written by Zhangcheng Lu with closing music by David Voss. Thanks for listening!