The Cave You Fear to Enter - Memory Reconsolidation and Emotional Healing with Dr. Brian Desroches - Episode #38

Guest: Dr. Brian Desroches, PhD - Psychotherapist, Author, Clinical Coach

Release Date: January 10, 2026

Episode Summary

In this transformative conversation, Dr. Brian Desroches shares how a personal breakthrough in 2015 fundamentally changed his understanding of emotional healing after more than 20 years of clinical practice. Moving beyond traditional "overcome and manage" approaches, Brian introduces listeners to the neuroscience of memory reconsolidation - a process that allows us to update emotional learnings at the synaptic level rather than simply coping with symptoms.

Key Topics Discussed

The 2015 Paradigm Shift

1. Brian's 10-year struggle with writing procrastination despite extensive therapy
2. His breakthrough experience with memory reconsolidation at a workshop
3. How shame and inadequacy became neurologically linked to writing in his brain
4. The immediate and lasting transformation that followed

Understanding Emotional Learning

1. How the brain acquires implicit emotional knowledge in the first 7 years of life
2. Why these learnings feel true in the present moment even when formed decades ago
3. The difference between explicit trauma memories and implicit emotional patterns
4. How the brain's predictive process creates protective but maladaptive behaviors

Memory Reconsolidation Explained

1. The brain as a learning, predicting, and adapting process
2. What prediction errors (or "prediction corrections") are and why they matter
3. The five-step process for creating lasting change
4. Why insight alone doesn't lead to transformation

Reframing Self-Sabotage

1. Why "getting in your own way" is actually your brain protecting you
2. The car analogy: one foot on gas, one on brake
3. Moving from "what's wrong with me?" to "what did I learn?"
4. Understanding triggers as protective mechanisms, not character flaws

The Role of Compassion

1. Why compassion is the gateway to self-love
2. Holding space for the parts of ourselves that learned to protect us
3. The grief that often accompanies discovering what's really driving our patterns
4. Joseph Campbell's wisdom: "The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek"

Practical Applications

1. Why you must be in an "activated state" for change to occur
2. How to identify the real threat your brain is predicting
3. The importance of embodied experience vs. intellectual understanding
4. Navigating systemic changes when you transform

Memorable Quotes

"It is not a character flaw. The brain is doing its job that it was designed to do - it just doesn't need to do it anymore because it's doing it based on past history that doesn't exist."

"When you touch into an emotional learning, it feels true. The emotional brain doesn't know time. You may have learned that 40 years ago, but when it gets activated today, it feels true today."

"The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure that you seek. When you land upon an emotional learning, your thinking brain will judge it as irrational, as illogical. But to your emotional brain, it does make sense."

About Dr. Brian Desroches

Dr. Brian Desroches has over 30 years of clinical experience as a psychotherapist and holds a PhD in Pastoral Counseling and Psychology. Originally from Windsor, Ontario, he now practices in Seattle, Washington. Beyond his therapy practice, Brian consults with dental professionals worldwide, helping them navigate difficult patient interactions and lead complex organizations. His latest book, Living a Trigger Free Life, translates cutting-edge neuroscience into accessible, practical guidance for lasting emotional transformation.

Resources

1. Book: Living a Trigger Free Life by Dr. Brian Desroches
2. Website: https://a.co/d/bDgsLtC

Practice Location: Seattle, Washington

Related Concepts Mentioned

1. Memory reconsolidation
2. Implicit vs. explicit memory
3. Emotional learning
4. EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing)
5. Internal Family Systems
6. Neuroplasticity
7. Prediction error/correction
8. Bilateral auditory stimulation

For Clinicians

This episode offers valuable insights for mental health professionals looking to move beyond symptom management toward root-cause transformation. Dr. Desroches' approach integrates neuroscience research with clinical practice in a way that honors both the science and the deeply human experience of healing.

Next Episode: Another exciting journey into the cutting edge of neuroscience, neurostimulation, and interventional mental health.

Subscribe to never miss an episode and help us reach more curious minds!

Welcome to The Neurostimulation Podcast.

2

I'm Michael Passmore, clinical

associate professor in the department

3

of Psychiatry at the University of

British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.

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The Neurostimulation Podcast is all

about exploring the fascinating world

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of clinical neuroscience, non-invasive

neurostimulation, interventional

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mental health techniques like ketamine

assisted psychotherapy, a whole

7

host of things that can be done to

help improve lives and connections.

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We explore the latest research

breakthroughs and how that

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research is being translated into

real world treatments that can

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improve health and wellbeing.

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This podcast is separate from my

clinical and academic roles, and

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is part of my personal effort to

bring this kind of neuroscience

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education to the general public.

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Accordingly, I would like to emphasize

that the information shared in

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this podcast is for educational

purposes only and is not intended

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as medical advice or a substitute

for professional medical guidance.

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Today I had a really

interesting discussion with Dr.

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Brian DeRoche.

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Brian is a psychotherapist, a teacher,

an author, an entrepreneur, a coach.

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Just a really fascinating individual and

he presents a really compelling story.

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Which, is a really heartfelt and,

interesting and engaging discussion that

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I hope that you'll stay tuned for and I'm

sure you're gonna get a lot out of it.

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I certainly know that I did.

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it was a really interesting

conversation and I'm really looking

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forward to sharing that with you all.

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Welcome back to the Neurostimulation

Podcast where we explore how cutting

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edge neuroscience translates into

real human change, not just symptom

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management, but real transformation.

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I'm really excited about today's

conversation because it sits right

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at the intersection of neuroscience,

psychotherapy, and lived experience.

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My guest today is Dr.

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Brian DeRoche, a psychotherapist

with over three decades of clinical

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experience, an author and a consultant

to healthcare professionals.

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Brian has spent much of his career

doing what many of us try to do,

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helping people understand why they

keep getting stuck in patterns that

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they desperately want to change.

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But in 2015, after more than 20

years of practice, Brian had a

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moment that fundamentally changed his

understanding of emotional healing.

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He realized that much of what

we've been taught about things

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like coping, managing triggers, and

even insight itself was incomplete.

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And that realization led him into

the neuroscience of emotional

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learning and memory, reconsolidation,

and ultimately to his new book

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called Living a Trigger Free Life.

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So I'm really excited because I think in

this conversation we're gonna be exploring

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why willpower collapses under pressure,

why insight often doesn't lead to change,

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how the brain predicts future pain based

on past emotional learning, and most

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importantly, how those learnings can

actually be updated at the synaptic level.

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Brian doesn't frame self-sabotage as

a flaw, but as a protection, and he

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offers a neuroscience based pathway

for lasting change that many listeners,

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especially clinicians, may find

both unsettling and deeply hopeful.

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Brian, welcome to the podcast.

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I'm so excited that you're here

and I'm really looking forward

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to our conversation today.

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Brian: Thank you, Michael.

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Thank you for this, this opportunity

to spread this word and, and to

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discuss what I think is a paradigm

shift for my profession and

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for the self-help industry too.

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Uh, uh, a real switch

from the overcome battle.

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Get over it.

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Uh, counteract your symptoms to

one where in the Buddhist sense you

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engage with them and find out what's

really driving them underneath.

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And now the neuro new neuroscience

tells us how we can change the

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cause of those symptoms and problems

that last year brought about 34

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million people to psychotherapy.

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Fantastic.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that it really speaks

to the importance of bringing.

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At least, having space to allow for

some type of a spiritual component

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to any kind of therapeutic work.

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You know, you mentioned Buddhism, but

despite, you know, regardless of what

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anyone's worldview is, I think that

it's a, a really important, aspect

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of care and it's something that in

secular society is often sidelined.

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And so I'm really looking forward

to exploring how important

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that is from your perspective.

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Brian: Yes, thank you.

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That, and, and I'll get to

that, yes, and it has to do in

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fact with emotional learning.

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Hmm.

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Brian: and, but that's a very, that's

a different topic, but related, so

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for sure.

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Yeah.

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The emotional piece and the spiritual

piece definitely go hand in hand.

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I was curious, so maybe, if you

don't mind, perhaps you could

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just, introduce yourself a little

bit about your background, just

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so viewers and listeners, get know

you a bit and that would be great.

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Yeah.

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Brian: Good.

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Good.

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Well, It started my career, got a master's

degree in hospital administration, and

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by my late twenties, I just saw, boy,

I, I just wanted to make a lot of money.

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And those people in those that

have those big offices and

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those hospitals were doing okay.

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So I thought, Hey, I'm gonna do this.

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And so I went ahead and did that.

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And by the time I was in my early

thirties, I was vice president

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of a multi-hospital corporation.

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I, I got a master's degree in

counseling because we were managing

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healthcare facilities and recovery

facilities, addiction recovery.

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And I did not understand what

those people were talking about.

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I just defied my understanding.

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So I figured, well, if you can't

change 'em, why not join them?

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So I got a master's degree in counseling,

but after a bit I got kind of tired.

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I just, my administration

work did not feed my soul.

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And, so I decided to make a trial

left that completely did, got

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involved building some psychiatric

hospitals head up, uh, alcoholism

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treatment center for about a year.

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It still didn't do it.

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And in my late thirties,

my mid thirties, yeah.

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I kind of said that's it.

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I opened up a private practice, cast my

fate to the wind, if you will, and, was

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the best choice I've ever made in my life.

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It was my, I know it was my

destiny, I just know it and,

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and, and it continues to be.

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And, so been in practice 30 plus years.

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Do work with, I have a coaching

practice that works with dentists.

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Literally all over the world, workshops,

presentations, and how to deal with

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difficult patients and how to lead a very

complex organization, a dental practice.

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And that's been a very rewarding for

me because dentists are, uh, like you,

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scientists, and, um, I have to really

know my science, my neuro, I really

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have to know it in order to be able to

do what I did, I, the coaching practice

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and also do psychotherapy, uh, using

the model that I described in the book.

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I just didn't go back to anything else.

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I see too many positive results.

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So, father of four, two kids,

two adopted children and, and

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live in Seattle and I love it.

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I love it.

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Yeah.

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That's great.

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That's great.

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Thanks so much.

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That's such a, a fascinating story.

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It's so heartwarming.

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You know, I love the description of

just how you felt, at home, just so

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connected when you found your vocation

and that you just really Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Flourished.

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Flourished in that ever since.

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Brian: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And that's why I got my, I got, because

of the work I was doing, I went and got a

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PhD in pastoral counseling and psychology.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: I really wanted to

understand more deeply what people

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were asking fundamentally about

meaning and purpose and suffering.

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And, and that helped me to really

get a, just deepen my awareness

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of the deeper journey that every

one of us, I believe is on.

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Yeah.

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Fascinating.

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Yeah, I, I can't, I can't agree more.

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I think that it, it just sounds amazing

and, in particular, yeah, I just think

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that, it, it's really interesting to

hear about your, your coaching, your

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that, because the coaching, it lends

itself so well to the psychotherapeutic

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practice because that's essentially

what a psychotherapist is, isn't it?

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It's a, a type of a coach.

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Brian: Yeah, very much so.

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Very, very much so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The only difference is when you coach,

you don't have to put a diagnosis.

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When you do psychotherapy, you

need a diagnosis and a, it's all,

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that's the primary, but the process

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mm-hmm.

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Brian: Of helping people to understand

and move towards their desires, desired

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outcomes, is very similar in many ways.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's interesting though, 'cause

the diagnostic piece, it's kind

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of a double-edged sword, isn't it?

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Because you, on the one hand, it can be

helpful, but on the other hand it can.

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Hinder and get in the way.

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Yeah.

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Brian: Yeah.

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It, it, it, you have this and so there's

this, I've gotta fix this, which is

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typically the problem or the symptom, and

does not get underneath that problem or

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symptom that what's really driving it.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: What is, what is the, what I've

learned is the emotional learning,

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the, that's driving that symptom that

the brain and its learning, predicting

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and adapting process recognizes, and

then, boy, we focus on these problems.

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But beneath I, I think, I do think,

I think Troy would be quite happy

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Sure.

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Brian: With what

neuroscience has found out.

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I'm not quietly talking about the

sexual oppression part, but the

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fact of the, and Jung particularly,

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yeah.

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Brian: The role of the unconscious,

how we can bring it to consciousness.

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Yeah.

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Brian: And, and actually change.

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At the synaptic level, the brains

still is, a fact and a reality that,

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as I say, I continue to integrate

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mm-hmm.

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Into

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Brian: practice in my life.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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It makes me think of, a really apt

metaphor that I, I read recently

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and Stan and Christina Gross's

book on holotropic healing.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yes.

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And the metaphor was that, when you

have, when you have a, a red light

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on in the dashboard of your car,

signaling that there's some engine

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trouble, you, you don't just reach

under into the dashboard and pull out

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the wires that go to that red light.

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Right.

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Right.

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which is, in a way that's kind of

what modern psychiatry does with these

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medications is it seeks to just dampen

down the alert signal rather than

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going into the engine and fixing what's

causing the problem in the first place.

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Brian: Well, well said.

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I, I also have a car analogy too.

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it's like when you get in your car,

you start the ignition and you've got

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a destination in mind and you want

to go to this, whatever it is, party

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or the grocery store or something,

you put your foot on the gas.

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Now imagine when you put your foot

on the gas, you simultaneously

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put your other foot on the brake.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: This is the dilemma.

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And what you're saying is, okay, so

we're gonna focus on, what do you

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do when the foot's on the brake?

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Let's relieve the, the, the, maybe

you need a different destination.

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Maybe you need to get outta the car.

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Maybe you need to back off a little bit.

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But we don't look at what causes

the other foot to put the foot

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on, on the brake, and that's very

stressful, as you know very well.

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On the nervous system mm-hmm.

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On the infl.

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it's very stressful to have one foot

on the, this, you burn out your engine.

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Yeah.

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Burn out your engine.

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Yeah.

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Always.

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All these little subtle, subtle ways

that we get in our own way, we get,

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we are our own kinds of obstacles.

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These subtle methods that

we get in our own way.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I was curious.

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Yeah.

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Go ahead.

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Mm, please.

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Brian: I and IP we do, I know I certainly,

I've learned a lot that I get in my own

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way, but now I find out that many times,

getting in my own way is my brain's way

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of protecting me from something that

will be painful, will involve suffering.

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That I only feel, but there's no

co, there's no, I don't have images.

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It's not like an explicit

traumatic memory.

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and we all, I certainly have those.

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And EMDR has been very effective

at metabolizing, those.

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Those explicit memories, but it was,

when it comes to the implicit mm-hmm.

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Emotional learnings acquired

in the first seven years.

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Yeah.

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We only know those as sensations.

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The very seldom is there

anything explicit, semantic or

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episodic associated with that.

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And those are what drive my

observation, my experience person.

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Those what drive our emotional reactions,

our triggered reactions, our pattern

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maladaptive, whether it be pushing away as

in conflict, pulling away as an avoidance

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or just tummy avoidance, fight fawn.

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You know, it, it's,

that's what the cause is.

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and that's a big shift that I, I say I'm

still integrating that 'cause I wanna fix.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, no, no, no, no.

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Listen and go deeper.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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It makes me think that maybe, what I

was really interested in just reading

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a bit about your background was this

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Yes.

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That there was like a

paradigm shifting moment.

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Maybe you can explain Yes.

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It was what that was about.

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Brian: Sure.

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so in the, in the mid, 1990s, I

published two books, one on re

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Reclaiming Yourself and the other,

codependent Recovery Process.

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And the other was called

Your Boss Is Not Your Mother.

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How We Repeat Patterns in the Workplace

based on our family experience.

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And they were published by big publishing

houses in New York, but the, the, the

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one book, your Boss Is Not Your Mother.

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When I submitted the manuscript, the

publisher said, love the content, but

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this is, it needs to be formatted.

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It's just we're gonna hire

a professional writer.

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To do that.

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And their logic, their rationale

made total sense to me.

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They did it very respectfully.

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They wanted the best for the book.

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My experience of the rewrite was shame,

and they never intended this inadequacy.

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What's wrong with me?

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I'm not enough.

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I really got, looking back

now, I really saw that,

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got the book reread and it was

translated into six languages and, and

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I'm very, feel really good about it.

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So in the, about five years later,

the early two thousands, mid two,

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2004, I had an idea for two more

books and I thought, oh, I've got two.

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I can do this.

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Michael, I couldn't write.

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even now when I talk about it, I

can, I can feel that experience,

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not the anxiety, but the awareness.

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I couldn't write.

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I would, I would, I'd get

frozen and it made no sense.

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So I've got a writing coach.

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I bought a really nice fine

blue cobalt pan to write with.

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I got a new computer.

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I went on writing retreats.

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I did e mdr, RI, nothing, nothing would

move me beyond this what became a very

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toxic procrastination for 10 years.

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I, and I didn't, I couldn't understand it.

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And so in 2015, I read about this

workshop on memory reconsolidation.

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And this sounds really interesting.

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I went to the workshop, it

was at Fordham in New York.

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And, As so happens, I was the Guinea pig

for the demonstration, and guess what?

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The focus was my writing, procrastination.

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I went through the process.

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There's five steps that

I talk about in the book.

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I didn't know that I'd shifted when

I got back Monday morning to Seattle

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and I, I went, I said I'm gonna start

writing what was at an eight level in

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terms of anxiety, was now at a one.

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And I was like, it was,

it was disorienting to me.

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It was like, what is going on?

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This, I'm supposed to be anxious.

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It was.

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It at 10 years of that, it just,

I, I couldn't understand it.

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And then when I really started looking

at what the research was and how my

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brain had changed over that weekend,

because what the brain was predicting

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was going to happen if I write, which

is shame, inadequacy, really toxic

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emotions had been counteracted, if you

will, not by trying to get over it by

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a mismatch, a prediction correction.

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Mm-hmm.

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Brian: And that just blew me away.

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And that's when I began my in-depth

research, the of, of, what is this?

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How does this work?

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What's the new?

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And the neuroscience is very clear on it.

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And so I started using this process,

this, this non counteractive.

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Let's engage with the symptom.

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Let's go underneath the symptom.

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If you imagine doing this

change, what's it like?

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And for most people may imagine doing

a change or completing something.

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And I've got so many stories in the book

that become anxious because the brain

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had learned in my brain, had learned if

I write and publish another book, I will

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be shamed and humiliated and will suffer.

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And it had all its origins

in my family of origin.

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I'm the adult child of, an alcoholic

PTSD dad from World War ii.

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And, I thought I, I've done 17 years

of therapy on all kinds of stuff.

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Nothing really changed, but at

least I was doing something.

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Mm-hmm.

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Insight never worked.

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I knew what, what my problem was, I

just couldn't do anything about it.

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But the writing really, really

brought it home when I learned

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that writing and shame.

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Those negative kind of emotions

have become associated my brain.

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Unbeknownst to me, it was not like

I said, oh good, I get to learn

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that I'm incompetent and adequate.

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No, my brain, my emotional

brain linked those two.

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and so every time I went to

write, my brain would assess

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the threat of the writing.

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'cause the brain's always

doing a threat assessment.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: And then it, survival

bias would predict pain, activate

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the anxiety, and I withdraw.

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Mike: Hmm.

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Brian: And when I really start to see that

and work with clients and in my own life,

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I began to experience the kind of

changes that I had dreamt about

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having but never experienced.

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and really experienced in my body.

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The shift was in my body.

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It wasn't just in my head.

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Mm-hmm.

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It

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Brian: was, I could feel the difference.

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And when you can feel the difference

given a stimuli and you have

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a different experience of that

stimuli, your brain has changed.

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It has transformed.

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And that is an enduring transformation.

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Mm-hmm.

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Brian: Yeah.

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And that's what happened in 2015.

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It just like, whew.

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Yeah.

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Brian: It, it, it, wow.

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The, the idea about prediction

correction, I think that's such a

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fundamental, very important idea.

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Brian: Mm-hmm.

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You, you, you've explained

that already a little bit.

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Do you mind just expanding on that

a little, and then not at all about

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how to approach, undo that problem?

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Brian: Yeah.

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And in, in, in neuroscience terms,

they call it a prediction error.

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so the brain is, make the brain's

prediction is an error I call a

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prediction correction, because when

I've been doing workshops on this.

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I got feedback saying, no, this,

you are correcting the prediction.

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I realize, there's something

to be said for that wisdom.

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So I call it a prediction correction,

but if you look it up, it's prediction

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error in neuroscience terms.

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So the brain is a, a learning,

predicting and adapting process.

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it does a lot of things, but

at heart it acquires knowledge.

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Knowledge about skills, knowledge about

processes and, and, and information.

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But there's a third level of

knowledge that the brain acquires

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that most of us aren't aware of.

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'cause we don't actively,

consciously participate in it.

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And that's the level

of emotional learning.

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Mm-hmm.

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So the emotional brain learns,

acquires knowledge, what causes

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pain, and what causes pleasure.

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And in the first seven years particularly.

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That process, as you

know, is very powerful.

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As Yung talked about, the stamping

process that happens, cultural

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process that happens fitting in.

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All of that, that knowledge that

is acquired, called an implicit

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emotional learning process,

resides in the unconscious, the

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lower regimens, the levels of the

right hemisphere, if you will.

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And so the brain uses, it's a

predictive process as it uses

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its past experiences to predict.

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It's always doing that.

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We do it consciously.

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Planning for, this was a prediction.

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We do this consciously.

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The brain also does it unconsciously.

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So if I learned as I did with

writing, writing and shame and get

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connected, I didn't know, I, I didn't

know that my brain learned that.

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So every time I would go to write,

my brain would take the writing

422

cue and it would activate to make

sense of this activate the learning.

423

The learning would then predict

'cause of its survival bias.

424

It would predict it pain, and

naturally it does what it's

425

created to do evolution wise.

426

It would then create anxiety.

427

The signal that says, no, no, no.

428

And with that, the accompanied behavioral

even like, it was interesting that Dr.

429

Henderson was talking about depression.

430

I worked with many people where

depression is their protective mechanism

431

and and pills didn't do anything for

them until they really, really looked

432

at what is the threat if I do this.

433

So a prediction correction

is, first of all, you have to

434

become conscious of the threat.

435

If I do this, then this will happen to me.

436

That's hard for people.

437

Mike: Yeah,

438

Brian: because the emotional brain is

logical, but it's most often irrational.

439

I've had people predict, if I voice my

opinion to my family, they will oust me.

440

They will ostracize me, and

I will be like a little child

441

left in the woods all alone.

442

that's what it felt like.

443

Now to a 37 or 40-year-old man

or woman, that makes no sense.

444

It's irrational, but to the

emotional brain, it's very logical.

445

So as a result, they would then withdraw

and not do anything, not say anything

446

that that pattern would get reinforced.

447

A prediction correction.

448

When you're in an activated state

and you have to be in the activated

449

state, you then bring in information.

450

That is a mismatch to the prediction

that counters the prediction.

451

That in fact says, wait a minute,

that prediction is not valid at all.

452

Look at how many times I have

expressed myself or my family.

453

They didn't ostracize me,

they didn't reject me.

454

And when you pair like Bluetooth,

when you pair in this anxious state,

455

which is the prediction state with

a information that the brain says,

456

wait a minute, this doesn't match.

457

And because of its survival,

it has to update itself.

458

So we get this activated neural network.

459

When you bring in information

that contradicts what that

460

learning is that you've now made

conscious if this, then this, and.

461

Then the brain de consolidates, unwire

that neural network and that can stay

462

open from up to about five hours.

463

Research has found during which

time you can continue the update and

464

then it reconsolidate with the new

information as a result of the update.

465

So the correction, the prediction

correction is very important.

466

It has to, it can't just be affirmations.

467

It has to be lived, some

lived experience or awareness.

468

I've had people in sessions just

p like, oh my God, they just

469

snapped out of a trance when they

introduced a prediction correction.

470

to their brain.

471

To their brain when they're activated.

472

And that's the difference between this

model or this approach versus standard

473

psychotherapy, which would counteract.

474

Push against, develop an alternative

neural network that competes with the

475

one that is the symptom causing one.

476

This new approach is, no, no,

you engage this, you go under it.

477

Make yourself conscious.

478

Introduce prediction,

correction information.

479

I've had many people have ponta.

480

I talk about spontaneous transformations

when you suddenly become aware, and I

481

I, I used it in my, I my wife is a great

chef, and every time she gave me feedback,

482

you didn't come to the onion, right?

483

Or blah, blah, blah.

484

I would feel attacked.

485

She, she's not attacking me.

486

Mm-hmm.

487

But I would like what, and before I used

to withdraw, then I realized, what is

488

my brain predicting that is causing me

to withdraw, to kind of get resentful?

489

Oh, that she's gonna reject me

because I'm not very good at.

490

That felt true.

491

It feels true, Michael, here's

the thing, when you touch into an

492

emotional learning, it feels true.

493

Mm-hmm.

494

Mm-hmm.

495

Mm-hmm.

496

The emotional brain doesn't know time.

497

Yeah.

498

So you may have learned that

40 years ago, but when it gets

499

activated today, it feels true today.

500

Mm-hmm.

501

Mike: Mm-hmm.

502

Brian: And but wait a minute,

my wife's not gonna read.

503

Are you kidding me?

504

We've married 38 years and I'm

still learning how to be a and

505

now when it happens, I laugh.

506

We kinda laugh about it.

507

I say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

508

It's a, it's a scintilla of what it

was before I learned this information.

509

So

510

prediction, corrections are critical,

and as a way of thinking, when you

511

start to think this way, then I call

it trigger and foreign mindfulness.

512

You become aware, whoa.

513

That just triggered me, what is the

threat that my brain is predicting?

514

Mike: Mm-hmm.

515

Brian: I'm with my friends,

I'm having at the golf game.

516

I'm out to dinner, a friend's talk,

telling me about their vacation,

517

and I'm having this reaction.

518

Mm-hmm.

519

Brian: What's going on in me?

520

Yeah.

521

It, it, it's, oh, yeah.

522

Yeah.

523

It, it strikes me that, one of the key

concepts I think, that I extracted from

524

that fascinating explanation was the

notion of the importance of the embodied.

525

Aspect of, of, of an emotional experience.

526

Right.

527

Because even, and I, I think

particularly maybe for clinicians,

528

academics, people that tend to live

in our minds and our cognition, the

529

whole idea about being emotionally

intelligent, it's probably only half

530

the battle you can be as emotionally

intelligent in your head as you want.

531

Yeah, exactly.

532

But if it's not, if it's not an

embodied experience, we're not

533

taught, we're not taught anything

about emotions and feelings as kids,

534

Brian: Nope.

535

For the most part, but even less so about

how emotions are experienced in the body.

536

Right.

537

Brian: That's so, that is so accurate.

538

And, and one of the things I've

shared with parents who sometimes

539

in presentations they'll say,

well, what do I do with my kid?

540

All they want to do is

look at their phone.

541

And, and we know research is clear

that there's no vagal stimulation.

542

When you look at a phone, you're

basically v vagal neutral or shut down.

543

And so because of that,

what are they learning?

544

What is the emotional learning

that's happening when you

545

are looking at a device?

546

where's the relational aspect, the

interpersonal neurobiological aspect of

547

using Daniel Siegel's term is missing.

548

yeah.

549

It, and I've worked with many parents

who have reactivity, a lot of reaction,

550

but their kids do certain things.

551

I'm thinking, gentleman, this last

week we went into what your kids

552

could do and what your kid does.

553

Let's go into you, what do

you want to be different?

554

I want to be calm and present.

555

Okay?

556

So what is the threat of being calm

and present and what he discovered?

557

Was that if my child is acting out,

people will see me as a parent who

558

doesn't care as an incompetent person,

and I will feel the shame of that.

559

That goes back to a lot of his history and

so when he realized that he was able to

560

introduce prediction corrections so that,

and I'll be seeing him next week, but we

561

got, really, let's take a look at that.

562

Are people really gonna do that?

563

No.

564

Especially when you're just with

your son and nobody's in the house.

565

Right?

566

It's just, but it generalized

it and so these triggers that,

567

that we all experience are,

are when they become patterns.

568

Yeah.

569

Well, I can relate to

that, that last story.

570

I think it's, this has been

a therapeutic section of the

571

conversation for me for sure.

572

I feel like I'm getting a bonus here

because I know exactly how that feels.

573

Mike: Yeah.

574

Yeah.

575

It's, it's, it's fascinating, right?

576

Because I think that, again, for a long

time it seems that emotional memory

577

to a certain extent as you referenced,

the, the greats, in terms of this idea

578

that we were born as a Tabula Raza blank

slate, and then we have emotional memory

579

that's kind of stamped in and hard wired.

580

Mm-hmm.

581

But, but then it seems that more recently,

neurosciences discovering concepts

582

like memory reconsolidation, so, yep.

583

Maybe as it relates to your work, can

you explain a little bit about this

584

idea about memory reconsolidation in

terms of emotional memories and why it

585

represents such a radical departure from

the legacy symptom management approach?

586

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

587

Yeah.

588

I, my original training in psychotherapy

was the counteract that's battled

589

these symptoms, overcome them.

590

And then if you can't, then

here's the relaxation techniques

591

to soothe yourself afterwards.

592

So you had two approaches.

593

One push against it.

594

They, okay.

595

Soothe yourself if it doesn't

happen and get insight.

596

and my experience with insight is

insight has never changed anything.

597

That's right.

598

May, in fact, many times it may be more

frustrated because I had insight and I

599

thought, I get, but I'm not changing.

600

I'm still reacting.

601

There must be something wrong with me.

602

Maybe I'm not getting it.

603

I would become critical of myself.

604

And I know many people that do, with

this new motif, if you will, this

605

new, this paradigm that's emerging is

instead of overcoming, we engage in, we.

606

As, as a therapist, you know, we listen

and try to feedback and in doing that,

607

and people can do this for themselves,

which is wonderful, is go deeper.

608

You can go underneath techniques such

as focusing, or I suggest people that

609

use a, a phone recorder to record

what happens when you get into the

610

embodied experience of anxiety.

611

Now, un understandably, there's people

that experienced very significant trauma

612

that they need to be very careful.

613

And I have those caveats in the

book, but for the vast majority

614

of us, it's little t traumas that

be, that generate the patterns.

615

And so once that becomes a neural network,

an emotional learning that correlates

616

experience.

617

Something happened with

desire or something.

618

I want to, Hey mommy,

I want your attention.

619

Of course.

620

And you go up and you grab Mommy.

621

Oh, okay.

622

And mommy turns, mommy's busy.

623

And this is not about mommy.

624

This is about what I learned.

625

Okay.

626

I, oh, I made mommy upset.

627

I'm responsible for mommy's feelings,

which is, and as we know for

628

children, is part of their survival

book is they, I my life to, not

629

consciously, but as young mammals.

630

So we adapt, we have to adapt.

631

And Wordsworth has a wonderful

way of describing that.

632

May I read you the first part of his poem?

633

Please do.

634

Yeah, absolutely.

635

Brian: Yeah.

636

This is from OO to, intimations

of immortality from his, re

637

recollections of childhood.

638

And it says the very beginning, our

birth is but asleep and a forgetting.

639

The soul that rises with us,

our life star has elsewhere.

640

It's setting, and he goes on

and then he says this at length.

641

The man perceives it, die away

and fade into the light of day.

642

That process, and

there's a lot more to it.

643

That process is the process of how

emotional learning creates the ego

644

self, or I call it the adaptive self.

645

Mike: Mm-hmm.

646

Brian: Rather than ego, which tends

to have a negative connotation.

647

It's an adaptive self.

648

The child has to adapt.

649

Those adaptations become for

most of us, some, all of us,

650

to some degree maladaptive.

651

Symptoms problems later.

652

Member Reconsolidation enables us to go

back and actually change those learnings

653

at the synaptic level in the brain, which

is enduring transformation, not temporary

654

problem resolution or insight site.

655

I could not be talking to you right

now, Michael, if that, if I had not

656

experienced that firsthand and not

continued to exp I would, I I would,

657

I would not be talking with you 'cause

the book would not have been written.

658

Yeah.

659

No, it's, it's, that you can tell

in the, the, the, the passion that

660

you bring to just talking about it

and with bringing in that profound

661

poetry, it makes so much sense.

662

It's, it's really a beautiful thing.

663

And I think it's, I especially love this

idea of turning the label of a flaw into

664

a protection, so that radical reframing

for things like imposter syndrome or

665

people facing avoidance, that those

aren't flaws, but they're more like

666

protective adaptations or maladaptations.

667

Yes.

668

So that shift in just the description

of the labeling, to me it seems like it

669

really changes, it sets the stage for

that more emotional tone of healing.

670

Right.

671

Brian: I, one of the primary

reasons that I wrote the book.

672

Because I, I know what it's

like to criticize oneself.

673

I know, I hear my patients,

my clients come down on

674

themself, what's wrong with me?

675

And, and which just adds more

levels of pain and suffering

676

to what they're experiencing.

677

It is not a character flaw.

678

It it, it is, it's a, an evolutionary,

the brain is doing its job that

679

it was designed to do and it just

doesn't need to do it anymore.

680

'cause it's doing it based on

past history that doesn't exist.

681

But the brain doesn't know that it's

just doing what it was created to do.

682

And it's doing a very good job.

683

That's why I call it the adaptive self.

684

It is,

685

there's nothing wrong with us except we've

learned some things that no longer apply.

686

And if we can update those things, maybe.

687

Let me, it was interesting.

688

Let me share one thing with you,

689

please, sir.

690

Brian: I, a couple weeks ago, I,

I was doing some research around

691

emotional evolution, spiritual

evolution and technolo or cognitive e

692

evolution as measured by technology.

693

And I drew a curve, went back a

along, I, obviously very subjective.

694

I drew a curve and we had the wheel

and, and then the printing press,

695

and then around the 19 hundreds

and the two thousands, oh my gosh.

696

The technology curve was,

it just was exponential.

697

When I looked at emotional evolution

in terms of how we evolved as a

698

species, the line was literally flat.

699

Mike: Mm-hmm.

700

Brian: And what I see now, given

the degree of war and violence and,

701

and, and, and what's happening in

the world, maybe even declining.

702

There's the spiritual evolution.

703

That's a whole different one, but, and my

concern is that the gap here and the gap

704

here becomes so great that emotionally

we cannot tolerate the technology.

705

And it will, I pray not, but

as the potential obviously

706

to destroy us as a species.

707

Mike: Mm-hmm.

708

Brian: Unless we evolve emotionally.

709

And to me that means changing the way

we think about childhood, the way we

710

deal with changes, and really working

with affect, working with our bodies.

711

Mm-hmm.

712

And not just our heads.

713

Yeah.

714

That, that disconnect between

the, the technological advancement

715

and our emotional awareness.

716

It, it strikes me that, that,

717

Mike: yeah,

718

almost by definition sets, sets people

up for an inherent sense of shame

719

as though there's something wrong

with me because I can't, I don't

720

seem, there's like a, a mismatch.

721

A misalignment.

722

A great friend of mine has

just used that term recently.

723

And so, I'm curious then from your

perspective, what, what happens

724

when, say we're able to identify

that shame is a critical component

725

Mike: mm-hmm.

726

That, that, that's, that's

has to be addressed.

727

So what, what happens then when shame.

728

Is identified and then kind of

drops out of the system that opens,

729

opens people up for, for healing.

730

I imagine

731

Brian: it, and shame oftentimes you,

it plays such a significant role, as a

732

feeling in them because it's very toxic.

733

The thing I, as is I ask people to think

about is, okay, as a result of this

734

shame, are you going to be abandoned?

735

Are you going to be rejected ostracized?

736

Are you, do you feel physical

endangerment, betrayal, or engulfment?

737

The five major threats that

children experience, but

738

they can't put a word on it.

739

They, they can't put a word on it

'cause they don't have the vocabulary,

740

they just have it as an experience.

741

So when shame is an

emotion, the real threat.

742

Is abandonment, rejection, physical,

endangerment, engulfment, somebody

743

taking over my sense of being, which

gets in the way of having close

744

and intimate relationships because

the threat of that is I will lose

745

myself and, and, and betrayal.

746

Those, those are hard for

people to identify as what's

747

going to happen to them.

748

if you're a 44-year-old competent

executive, but you can't really, you're

749

not speaking up at meetings because

you experience the threat of shame and

750

inadequacy and you will be rejected.

751

That's powerful stuff.

752

And it's very real.

753

It's very, very real.

754

so once, the key thing is to really,

what is the real threat here?

755

What is the real threat if I do this?

756

And that's hard for people

because oh yeah, okay.

757

People reject me.

758

Big deal.

759

Ah, it's not you.

760

That feels the rejection.

761

You're feeling it based on this

very painful experience that you had

762

first seven, first 15 years of life.

763

That was ongoing, but yeah.

764

Mm-hmm.

765

Yeah.

766

What's your sense of where,

the, the, the, the role?

767

It strikes me that compassion

has a critical role.

768

Brian: Mm-hmm.

769

Not only in terms of from the

therapist, but compassion for oneself.

770

I'm just curious to know what, what

more about the role and maybe even

771

some ideas about how that alters the

neuroplasticity that you talked about.

772

Enduring changes for the better.

773

Brian: My experience, Michael has been

person and professional, has been that

774

once, one, once you can under, once I can

understand, once somebody understand that

775

what you've been doing to change is you've

been counting, countering evolution, you

776

kind of fighting the evolutionary bias of

the brain and the brain's gonna win that.

777

Having compassion for that part

of me that wants to protect me.

778

Mm-hmm.

779

in internal family system like the

firefighter or that wants to really

780

protect me, but the role doesn't work in.

781

But still having compassion

for that part of me that, and

782

having compassion for the past.

783

I know my own experience once again,

and with my clients, once they discover

784

or uncover and realize what's really

going on here, there's a lot of grief.

785

Grief over lost choices, grief over

mistakes, grief as a result of this

786

maladaptive, protective behavior and with

grief, the invitation for compassion.

787

Oh, let me hold myself, let me hold

that part of me that learned this.

788

Let me hold that part of me in love

and in caring, not in anger, not in

789

hurt, but and, and an appreciation

for truly, we're always doing our

790

best, given what we're conscious of.

791

And if I can expand my consciousness,

then I also enhance how I

792

can be my best in the world.

793

but people say, you need

to love yourself now.

794

I hear that a lot.

795

Yeah, man.

796

It's kinda like, dude.

797

I get it.

798

And, and but how do you do that?

799

Mike: Yeah.

800

Brian: How do I feel Love for

myself, and I think compassion.

801

My experience, compassion is the gateway,

the path to that love for oneself.

802

Yeah.

803

I have to start with compassion for

myself and go, oh, and then, then,

804

then you enter the spiritual component

of it too, which is another avenue,

805

but it it, it plays a part in there.

806

Yeah.

807

Yeah.

808

I think it's really interesting to

even think about the derivation of the

809

word compassion to suffer alongside,

810

Brian: alongside,

811

I think people often forget that.

812

So it's suffering alongside

of the self, the wounded self.

813

Yes.

814

As opposed to just trying, as you

say, to put on a brave face or,

815

or just try and love yourself.

816

It's, it's bit more complicated than that.

817

Yeah.

818

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

819

It's like when people say, let go and.

820

Yeah, I've been trying for 10 years.

821

what do you mean exactly?

822

because what I need to let go of

is something I'm not conscious

823

of that I learned that is not

letting go of the behavior.

824

'cause the behavior survey a function.

825

Yeah.

826

Brian: It's letting go of what I

learned that is causing the behavior.

827

Right.

828

Brian: And that's a different phenomenon.

829

That that's a whole different phenomenon.

830

Yeah.

831

and and so it makes me think that,

and I'd like to, to, maybe focus in

832

more on your method and your book in

particular, but, and so I know that

833

there's an importance to this, what

you described as the five step process.

834

And that I understand that your, ideas

that it's not so much of a formula,

835

but a self informed and self-directed

transformation, which I really love.

836

I love that it builds in this sense

of agency, which is super important I

837

think for, for therapeutic purposes.

838

Brian: Oh, oh, couldn't agree more.

839

Yeah.

840

And so I guess maybe for viewers

and listeners that might be somewhat

841

skeptical after years of therapy or

self-help of the kind that we're just

842

alluding to here, what is it maybe that

they should expect that's genuinely

843

different, about your approach, what

you've learned and what's in your book?

844

Brian: that's a great question.

845

This is not about overcoming, doing

battle with fighting against counteracting

846

the problems and symptoms, including

depression now, differentiating,

847

exogenous and endogenous depression.

848

But for many, I've experienced

as depression, for example, as a

849

secondary symptom to withdrawal.

850

So it's, it's kind of like an outcome

of a withdrawal and avoidance process.

851

and I've also experienced

people where depression is their

852

primary protective mechanism.

853

Very, I especially, it is interest,

especially older people over 50,

854

really, really seen that,

that depression is there.

855

Primary protective, the

adaptive self uses depression.

856

Mike: Mm-hmm.

857

Brian: that the challenge is we live in

a society that wants to push through,

858

wants to control it, wants to avoid it.

859

Wants to overcome it.

860

you, you, if you look at advertisements

is overcome this and battle through

861

this and you, this way of being,

this way of transforming us is

862

a totally different paradigm.

863

You don't mm-hmm.

864

You engage with, you go

underneath the symptom.

865

To what is really, really going

on and the origin of that being

866

that original emotional learning.

867

The first step is being real clear.

868

What do you want to be different

for yourself in a positive sense?

869

What's the problem?

870

But what do you want to be different?

871

Now, if you imagine that difference

and doing, expressing yourself,

872

saying no, completing a workout

program, losing 50 pounds, I've had

873

people who, they go on diets after

about six months, they eat again.

874

They go back to their old weight

because when they lose the

875

weight, they become attractive.

876

And to become attractive is to

be seen and there's to be signi.

877

And that is very uncomfortable.

878

It's terrifying to be seen because of

what they learned about being seen.

879

And so naturally the brain is gonna do

its thing and it's gonna, this, these.

880

Ways of really being clear.

881

And then when you're clear about what

you want to be different, then you

882

will experience as I want to write, for

example, you will experience, when you

883

think about it, imagine it be in situ.

884

In fact, I even suggested people,

once they've clarified the problem

885

pattern and the very specific positive

change thing, not the absence of

886

a negative, and then discover it.

887

They actually spend one or two or three

weeks observing themselves in the world

888

experiencing this to really ground it.

889

And some people say, I don't wanna,

that's an I don't wanna strengthen it.

890

I said, I understand.

891

I don't want you to strengthen it.

892

I want you to observe it.

893

Look at there it is.

894

That way you can change the wording.

895

Maybe you'll discover, oh,

there's a lot more here.

896

Maybe you'll make linkages to

early caregiver experiences

897

that you didn't have.

898

And then once you've done

that, you've observed it.

899

And you've validated it in your body.

900

It's a, it's a emotional

sensory evaluation.

901

It's not here, it's here because

that's where the action is.

902

It's in the body.

903

And once you've done that, then you can

really look at, and I've got ways of

904

people to really look at how do you create

prediction, corrections, information that

905

corrects what you identified as the threat

to you that you learned a long time ago,

906

but feels like it's gonna happen today?

907

Because that's how the

emotional brain works.

908

'cause it doesn't know

time, it just knows now.

909

Mike: Yeah.

910

Brian: And, and then introducing to

the brain when you're in an activated

911

state, that prediction, correction

information, And then observe afterwards.

912

Observe what happens.

913

But you have to be in the, that Bluetooth,

you've got to be in that activated state,

914

Mike: right.

915

Brian: In order to de consolidate

for the network to de consolidate.

916

Once it's unwired, then new learning,

the brain is recognized, a mismatch,

917

and it's going to do what it was

designed to do, update itself so

918

it can be prepared for the future.

919

Mike: Mm-hmm.

920

Brian: It's, it's such a human technology.

921

It just, it blow what?

922

Yeah.

923

It blows me away.

924

And I, and then also, what's

important, Michael, I, I, in the

925

book, I talk about this is, as you

do this, you need to recognize the

926

systems in which you function are

going to sh you're, you're shifting

927

everybody's relationship with you.

928

Mike: Mm-hmm.

929

Brian: And that's

uncomfortable for people.

930

They're used to you being a certain

way and all of a sudden you're not.

931

So I have recommendations of

how to deal with that and what

932

communication skills you need to

adapt to reinforce the transformation

933

that you're making that oftentimes

gets lo left out of so many books.

934

It's absolutely essential.

935

The aftermath of the shift is really,

really important in dealing with your

936

experience and others experience of you.

937

Yeah,

938

definitely.

939

Yeah.

940

That's very, very important.

941

and, and I love the, the

message, the hopeful message.

942

just in terms of the, the

adaptive nature of the brain,

943

the neuroplastic changes Yes.

944

That are, that are possible.

945

And that, that, it really is,

it's very optimistic and hopeful.

946

So that's,

947

Brian: and it's so wonderful when Dr.

948

Henderson, the last, when he was

on and he talked about insufficient

949

neuroplasticity, I suddenly realized, oh.

950

Memory consolidation is a process

that is an outcome of creating

951

sufficient neuroplasticity.

952

Really?

953

That's what it's, and I didn't

realize that, and all of a sudden I

954

saw it very clearly is, oh my gosh.

955

Yeah.

956

That's what's happening.

957

It's not activating and reinforcing,

it's activating and de consolidating

958

so that neuroplasticity can now happen.

959

Mm-hmm.

960

It opens itself up.

961

The learning can be updated.

962

The symptom is no longer needed.

963

The problem isn't needed anymore

because the, cause the learning has

964

been updated, it's been updated.

965

Absolutely fascinating.

966

It's,

967

Brian: it is,

968

it's kind of like how, even other kinds

of treatment options like ketamine and

969

different types of psychedelics mm-hmm.

970

Are, are kind of known to

enhance neuroplasticity and yeah.

971

Make, make space for those sorts

of therapeutic changes as well.

972

Brian: You bet.

973

You bet.

974

I've several clients that have done it.

975

It was interesting that you were

talking about the vi, he was

976

talking about the viral infection.

977

I had a client, a dentist

work for a long time.

978

He was on five medications by the time

it took about 18 months, two years of

979

really intense doing this kind of work,

this emotional learning and everything.

980

And he was on half a boost bar.

981

He was just phenomenal change, but

he still kept experiencing symptoms.

982

It turned out he had Lyme's

disease, Lyme, and had not been.

983

Diagnosed and it was causing, now

he's getting treatment for that.

984

And that really reinforced for me what Dr.

985

Henderson was talking about is the

importance of looking at other factors,

986

viral and bacterial that, may be in.

987

Exacerbating the symptoms in a Yeah,

988

definitely.

989

No, absolutely.

990

Yeah.

991

It's, it is important just to make

sure that, you have a comprehensive

992

kind of health plan with, just making

sure that you've had the lab workup

993

and just everything's been considered.

994

Yeah.

995

'cause there's a lot of potential

for comorbidity, different

996

problems contributing to

emotional symptoms, for sure.

997

Brian: Yeah, very definitely.

998

And as a result of that experience, I,

I have a much more, what I would call

999

comprehensive discussion about the symptom

and the problem that I had in the past.

00:56:03,158 --> 00:56:03,938

For that very reason.

00:56:03,938 --> 00:56:05,553

For that very reason, definitely.

00:56:05,673 --> 00:56:05,913

Yeah.

00:56:05,918 --> 00:56:05,938

Yeah.

00:56:06,008 --> 00:56:06,298

Yeah.

00:56:06,373 --> 00:56:06,943

well that's great.

00:56:06,943 --> 00:56:10,543

So I guess maybe as we kind of look to

wrapping up here, I, I would be interested

00:56:10,543 --> 00:56:14,743

to know if you could, what would be,

from, from, your extensive experience

00:56:14,743 --> 00:56:19,093

and, and, and all your thoughtful work

and, and your writing on this, if, if

00:56:19,093 --> 00:56:23,623

there's one or two fundamental kinds

of reorientations, one thing that

00:56:23,623 --> 00:56:28,093

people, that you would hope that people

finally stop blaming themselves for.

00:56:28,513 --> 00:56:31,153

And we've talked a bit about shame,

it's such a, a broad term, but I

00:56:31,153 --> 00:56:32,488

was just curious, is there mm-hmm.

00:56:32,713 --> 00:56:35,383

There's something in one kind

of particular one or two kind of

00:56:35,383 --> 00:56:38,623

particular things that you would

wanna to sort of leave us with

00:56:38,623 --> 00:56:40,423

as, as, as a hopeful message?

00:56:40,423 --> 00:56:41,683

One thing that people could That's,

00:56:42,583 --> 00:56:43,663

Brian: that's a great question.

00:56:43,843 --> 00:56:48,043

And Michael, I think about Joseph

Campbell's statement, the cave you fear

00:56:48,043 --> 00:56:51,733

to enter holds the treasure that you seek.

00:56:51,883 --> 00:56:52,033

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:56:53,533 --> 00:56:56,473

Brian: And what I mean by that, and

I think what he meant, but certainly

00:56:56,503 --> 00:56:58,873

what I mean by that is if we go.

00:56:59,508 --> 00:57:05,398

Within, and we all know sacred texts

for, are full, that it's, the essence

00:57:05,398 --> 00:57:08,248

is within that, the cave, if you will.

00:57:08,578 --> 00:57:12,058

Now, there are a lot of barriers

there in terms of emotional

00:57:12,058 --> 00:57:14,248

learnings, a lot of discomfort.

00:57:14,878 --> 00:57:23,668

So going in underneath the symptom,

using a variety of techniques to let

00:57:23,668 --> 00:57:29,518

the emotion brain speak its truth,

which is not the truth, but it is

00:57:29,518 --> 00:57:32,158

an emotional truth that it learned.

00:57:33,028 --> 00:57:36,388

And not because there tendency to let

this thinking brain get in the way.

00:57:36,388 --> 00:57:37,648

It is like, oh no, it's not that.

00:57:37,648 --> 00:57:40,078

Oh no, but it feels true.

00:57:40,888 --> 00:57:42,208

It feels true.

00:57:42,208 --> 00:57:43,678

It felt true to me.

00:57:44,518 --> 00:57:48,208

And this is the thing that is so

interesting that I want people to know.

00:57:48,688 --> 00:57:51,538

When you land upon an emotional learning,

00:57:53,818 --> 00:57:55,528

your thinking brain will judge.

00:57:56,128 --> 00:57:58,108

As irrational, as illogical.

00:57:58,108 --> 00:57:59,248

It makes no sense.

00:57:59,728 --> 00:58:01,498

I hear my clients say that often.

00:58:01,918 --> 00:58:02,878

That makes no sense.

00:58:03,058 --> 00:58:04,918

You're right, it does make no sense.

00:58:06,148 --> 00:58:08,098

But to your emotional

brain, it does make sense.

00:58:08,368 --> 00:58:12,778

So understanding, when you touch on

these emotional learnings, they are

00:58:12,778 --> 00:58:16,228

going to feel true in the present moment.

00:58:16,588 --> 00:58:22,678

They're gonna feel true, and that's

why they have so much power, but

00:58:22,678 --> 00:58:27,148

they feel true, only because the

emotional brain doesn't know time.

00:58:27,598 --> 00:58:30,808

And you do with your cognitive,

intellectual brain, your

00:58:30,808 --> 00:58:32,008

thinking brain knows time.

00:58:33,388 --> 00:58:39,508

That if people can realize that, that

really, you will know you're in the cave.

00:58:40,828 --> 00:58:45,418

And that's where the treasure is

when you discover these threats.

00:58:45,988 --> 00:58:50,338

If this happens, if I do this, if

this, then this will happen to me.

00:58:50,338 --> 00:58:52,078

They're in the cave.

00:58:52,648 --> 00:58:52,948

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:58:53,098 --> 00:58:54,153

Brian: The treasure is waiting.

00:58:55,423 --> 00:58:59,683

It just needs to be illuminated

by bringing in the prediction

00:58:59,683 --> 00:59:07,753

correction that illuminates opens

up so that the brain can be updated.

00:59:08,203 --> 00:59:08,473

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:59:10,303 --> 00:59:13,483

Brian: It, that would

be the primary messages.

00:59:14,323 --> 00:59:17,473

we have this beautiful brain of

ours, but we're not our brains.

00:59:17,473 --> 00:59:18,373

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:59:18,433 --> 00:59:20,623

Brian: We do have brains, just

like we have hearts and livers,

00:59:21,193 --> 00:59:22,363

but we're not our brains.

00:59:22,363 --> 00:59:23,563

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:59:23,564 --> 00:59:28,453

Brian: And we can therefore,

therefore transform them in ways

00:59:28,453 --> 00:59:30,733

that are just beginning to become.

00:59:32,053 --> 00:59:33,043

Oh, phenomenal.

00:59:33,043 --> 00:59:33,733

Just phenomenal.

00:59:33,733 --> 00:59:33,793

Yeah.

00:59:34,093 --> 00:59:34,453

Yeah,

00:59:35,038 --> 00:59:35,328

yeah.

00:59:35,893 --> 00:59:36,823

No, that's fantastic.

00:59:36,823 --> 00:59:37,723

That's just so lovely.

00:59:37,723 --> 00:59:40,783

I think, thank you for

bringing that amazing metaphor.

00:59:40,783 --> 00:59:45,403

I think we can, we can wrap up by

encouraging everyone to seek their own

00:59:45,403 --> 00:59:50,113

caves, to enter the cave, to explore

and, and, and search for the treasure.

00:59:50,113 --> 00:59:51,133

And find the treasure.

00:59:51,193 --> 00:59:51,583

For sure.

00:59:51,823 --> 00:59:51,883

Yeah.

00:59:51,883 --> 00:59:56,863

Brian, this has been a deeply

clarifying and inspiring conversation.

00:59:57,273 --> 01:00:01,053

what strikes me most is how

your work reframed struggle.

01:00:01,423 --> 01:00:04,153

not as a weakness, but

as the nervous system.

01:00:04,153 --> 01:00:07,903

The mind, the brain doing

exactly what it learned to do,

01:00:07,903 --> 01:00:09,583

which was to protect us, right?

01:00:09,613 --> 01:00:09,853

Brian: Yeah.

01:00:09,903 --> 01:00:10,123

so

01:00:10,123 --> 01:00:10,283

Brian: yeah.

01:00:10,283 --> 01:00:10,758

It's a no fault.

01:00:10,758 --> 01:00:12,048

It's a no fault process.

01:00:12,258 --> 01:00:12,588

Yeah.

01:00:12,768 --> 01:00:17,088

Brian: That we can optimize, we

can optimize the brain's learning,

01:00:17,358 --> 01:00:20,838

predicting, and adapting process

for enduring transformation.

01:00:21,288 --> 01:00:22,458

The neuroscience is there.

01:00:22,938 --> 01:00:24,323

Five steps really help it.

01:00:25,063 --> 01:00:26,658

We, we can do that.

01:00:27,138 --> 01:00:28,368

I know, I know.

01:00:29,268 --> 01:00:29,688

For sure.

01:00:29,688 --> 01:00:30,318

Absolutely.

01:00:30,318 --> 01:00:31,278

No, I, I agree.

01:00:31,278 --> 01:00:34,388

I know also, you know, from personal

and from professional experience,

01:00:34,388 --> 01:00:38,258

it really resonates and I think, so

for viewers and listeners who may

01:00:38,258 --> 01:00:41,258

have spent years managing symptoms,

building coping strategies or,

01:00:41,738 --> 01:00:44,378

sometimes with some improvement,

but maybe perhaps still feeling a

01:00:44,378 --> 01:00:48,068

bit frustrated, that just insight

alone didn't translate into change.

01:00:48,278 --> 01:00:52,688

Hopefully our conversation can help them

to look at opening a different door that,

01:00:52,748 --> 01:00:56,738

that you're proposing that's grounded in

modern neuroscience, clinical humility.

01:00:56,828 --> 01:01:01,868

I would also add, and so I'd encourage

everyone to check out Brian's book,

01:01:01,928 --> 01:01:06,523

living a Trigger Free Life, you know,

for practical science-based framework

01:01:06,523 --> 01:01:10,303

that we've been discussing for

understanding and updating these emotional

01:01:10,303 --> 01:01:12,733

learnings that may no longer serve us.

01:01:13,003 --> 01:01:15,043

So again, Brian, thank you

so much for your courage.

01:01:15,043 --> 01:01:15,133

Mm-hmm.

01:01:15,323 --> 01:01:19,073

not only in things like questioning your

own profession and for translating this

01:01:19,073 --> 01:01:23,658

complex neuroscience into accessible

and relatable language mm-hmm.

01:01:23,743 --> 01:01:26,063

For sharing your personal

story along the way.

01:01:26,393 --> 01:01:28,513

Really appreciated, the conversation.

01:01:28,513 --> 01:01:29,503

Thank you so much.

01:01:30,283 --> 01:01:30,973

Brian: My pleasure.

01:01:30,973 --> 01:01:34,573

Thank you, Michael, for this

opportunity and happy new Year.

01:01:34,753 --> 01:01:39,013

This is just, just to begin to

01:01:39,193 --> 01:01:40,483

May you all flourish?

01:01:40,753 --> 01:01:41,233

Yes.

01:01:41,438 --> 01:01:41,658

Yes.

01:01:41,893 --> 01:01:42,463

That's great.

01:01:42,793 --> 01:01:43,153

Thanks.

01:01:43,153 --> 01:01:46,093

Thanks again, Brian, and thank

you to viewers and listeners for

01:01:46,093 --> 01:01:47,563

your interest and for your time.

01:01:47,783 --> 01:01:52,793

if this episode resonated with you, please

do take a moment to reflect on, again, not

01:01:52,793 --> 01:01:56,453

so much what you need to fix, but what,

what maybe what your mind and your brain

01:01:56,753 --> 01:02:00,473

may have learned a long time ago and it's

still trying to protect you from, and how

01:02:00,473 --> 01:02:04,763

you might wanna, as Brian says, go seek

to work with someone to go beneath that

01:02:04,763 --> 01:02:09,633

and, and, and, and learn, take some of

what Brian's wisdom can offer in terms of

01:02:09,633 --> 01:02:15,283

helping, helping you flourish and, and,

01:02:15,283 --> 01:02:17,323

with, with improved health and wellness.

01:02:17,323 --> 01:02:20,608

So again, thanks everyone for watching

and listening, and we'll see you next

01:02:20,608 --> 01:02:22,543

time on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

01:02:23,218 --> 01:02:27,058

Mike: Thank you so much for joining us

today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

01:02:27,238 --> 01:02:30,988

I hope that you enjoyed that

stimulating conversation with

01:02:30,988 --> 01:02:32,758

Brian DeRoche as much as I did.

01:02:33,328 --> 01:02:36,628

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

01:02:36,628 --> 01:02:38,398

and subscribe to the podcast.

01:02:38,638 --> 01:02:42,478

It's the best way to make sure that you

never miss an episode, and it also helps

01:02:42,478 --> 01:02:44,968

us to reach more curious minds like yours.

01:02:45,628 --> 01:02:49,348

If you think today's episode might

resonate with a friend, a family member,

01:02:49,348 --> 01:02:51,568

or a colleague, please share it with them.

01:02:51,868 --> 01:02:55,108

Knowledge is better when it's shared

and you never know who might find

01:02:55,108 --> 01:02:57,478

this information helpful or inspiring.

01:02:58,618 --> 01:03:02,098

For more details about Brian's

work, please do check out the

01:03:02,098 --> 01:03:03,658

links in the show notes below.

01:03:03,958 --> 01:03:07,828

You'll find everything that you need to

dive deeper into this topic, to find out

01:03:07,828 --> 01:03:12,208

more about his books and how to purchase

one or borrow one from the library,

01:03:12,688 --> 01:03:16,768

join the conversation in the comment

section or reach out on social media.

01:03:17,128 --> 01:03:19,408

If you have ideas for future episodes.

01:03:19,438 --> 01:03:21,808

Please leave those ideas

in the comment section.

01:03:22,138 --> 01:03:26,368

Your questions, ideas, and

feedback make this podcast better.

01:03:27,043 --> 01:03:29,563

Finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

01:03:29,803 --> 01:03:33,493

It's gonna be another exciting journey

into the cutting edge of neuroscience,

01:03:33,763 --> 01:03:38,323

neurostimulation, interventional mental

health, general health and wellness.

01:03:38,383 --> 01:03:39,853

So thanks again for listening.

01:03:40,003 --> 01:03:45,163

Take care, stay curious, and I'll see you

next time on The Neurostimulation Podcast.