Today’s guest has over twenty years of experience as an executive coach, leadership consultant, trainer, team builder and business consultant. Winnie da Silva has been a solopreneur for the last 16 years, working with hundreds of leaders at all levels from the C-Suite to newly established leaders in over a dozen industries in Fortune 500 companies to start-ups. 

Winnie also hosts the podcast, ‘Transformative Leadership Conversations’ where leaders share their stories of overcoming challenges and how they persevere through adversity.

Listen to this conversation to learn how to take on multiple roles as a coach and consultant, practice emotional intelligence, and how Winnie learned to make a real difference with her work by taking on new challenges.

Links mentioned:

Transformative Leadership Podcast

WinniedaSilva.com

Colin Hunter 0:07

Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of the leadership tales Podcast. I'm Caitlyn Hunter. And today I'm going to be joined by one of my favourite people we need to silver, when he is living in Harlem, and whenever I head to New York, I always have to catch up with Winnie. She was one of those people who bought a house in Harlem, when you couldn't buy houses, there wasn't a mortgage that you could have to buy that property. But she has a history that that goes with that. So from a work in social work through working for Bovis, and then into her work as a coach as a trainer, and she's one of my go to people for coaching and training and our clients love her, shall give her some of the the tasks or the assignments that I feel that really need care, and attention. When you hear her today, you'll, you'll get an understanding of the warmth or pour the analytical thinking that goes into her work. But also, you'll get this, this processed way, that she works through other people's problems and helps you to work and therefore I would reach out to her to give me guidance on what I'm trying to do in the business. And we are at the moment in terms of the work we're doing. So I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of my conversation with Winnie. You will love it. And I'd love to hear your feedback.

And delighted to be joined by a good friend when it de Silva. Every time I go to New York, it's one of my aims and missions in life to get together with Willie and our conversations are always something that inspire me. So I'm delighted that you took the time today to be on this podcast with me, Winnie. Welcome.

Winnie da Silva 1:46

Thank you, Colin, thank you so much for having me on your show. I'm really excited to be here and talk with you today.

Colin Hunter 1:51

Good now, obviously, are given a hint that you live in New York or tell me a bit about or tell the listeners a bit about yourself, maybe just a potted history of you.

Winnie da Silva 2:01

Sure. So yeah, I live in Manhattan. I live in Harlem, with my three daughters and husband in a brownstone and love living here. So I actually have a master's degree in social work from Chicago or suburbs of Chicago. But I've been living in New York City since actually I went to graduate school, did some social work, moved on to business consulting, worked for Arthur Andersen and their business consulting practice. When Arthur Andersen died, then went on to work for one of our clients, Bovis and lease which is a construction management company, and was their head of learning and development, and then left that company, and have been on my own for the last 15 years doing executive coaching, leadership development team development work. And I of course, I also have my own podcast, Transformative Leadership conversations. So that's, that's what I do.

Colin Hunter 2:51

Cool. I you know, for those who don't know, Manhattan, but more might know a bit about it. But in Harlem, you're an early buyer in a space that probably a lot of people weren't going to tell us about the house and the project. I always find that fascinating.

Winnie da Silva 3:08

Colin Hunter 4:16

Yeah. And that mix of different cultures, backgrounds, for me, almost describes you in a lot of ways, because when we're having conversations, your ability and your ease to move between conversations that we have other people's conversations, tell me about what drives you what's what's the inner drive fee if you had to named?

Winnie da Silva 4:35

Well, it's interesting because I have to say that having come from a background in social work, really is something that has grounded me in how I view people because I was really taught and maybe I just had an interest in this anyway, that you know, people are holistic, you know, they have innate personalities. They have their own emotional makeup, but then

There's like their family and the environment and the history that they come from the communities in which they live, you know, even government policies and perceptions and biases that they've, you know, kind of endured or embraced throughout their lives. And the thing that really drives me is I really, truly believe that people can change, and that there is potential for everybody to be different, do better take things to the next level. And that hope really drives me both for my own life personally, as well as professionally. And I think that I hope that I give some of that sort of energy and potential and hope to other people that I work with, with my clients and the work that I do. Yeah. And personally, tell me a bit about the family. Maybe tell you know, your background, because you're not only working with clients and developing them, you've got a family to develop as well. So tell us a bit about Sure. Sure. Yeah, I have three daughters. So one is a junior in high school. 17, Kavita and Aradhna is an eighth grade and middle school. And then I have a youngest daughter, Sitara, who's in second grade. So pretty full family with lots of different stuff going on. You know, I read an article recently that said something about eight year olds, and then talking a lot and you know, make sure you enjoy it, because when they become teenagers, they'll stop talking. That's not my experience.

Colin Hunter 6:26

No, no, right. I know, I don't know why

Winnie da Silva 6:27

that's the thing that people believe that but man, you know, trying to navigate three young women who have a lot to say, is not easy. But I love it. Because it's it's interesting that you would think, again, with two teenagers and eight and an eight year old, you know, they don't want to scurry into their own holes in their own spaces. But it's not true. You know, everyone's in the living room, we all want to be together. So it's it's really nice, although it can be very loud and chaotic at times, you know, also my husband, you know, he works for himself, too. So our family spends a lot of time together,

Colin Hunter 7:03

how's the impacted over COVID? Then so because that's been a must have been? We've had probably the best year we've had as a family, bizarrely with everything else, you know, as a family eating dinner together and other things, how's it been for you?

Winnie da Silva 7:17

I would agree. First of all, we've been really blessed that none of us have been sick, none of our families have been sick. So really, it's just a matter of enduring sort of the ups and downs, I would definitely agree with you, Collin. It's like really has brought us together and given us time to spend together. Even though there's been some, you know, times where we've hit the wall, here or there. It's always better if we hit the wall at different times. So we can support each the person who's hitting the wall. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. But I would agree, I feel like it's really brought us together. And I feel like we're also most people wouldn't say this. But living in New York City, I feel like we're lucky. Because it feels less isolating. You know, even though we haven't been able to see friends and family, we take walks, you know, we go outside and just knowing that people are there, even if you don't know them, is comforting.

Colin Hunter 8:07

And it's interesting, because that sense of community is definitely part of what we've experienced where we live as well on the city, but in the country, you know that that connection point is on the theme of what we're talking about, you've talked about a couple of things in terms of your purpose, and it's almost the stereotypes that people are given because of backgrounds, areas where you come from, and people are given almost, or that's there must be like this, there's a piece in there that strongly coming through for me, which is you take the individual in there, I'm interested in exploring that. And then that that opportunity to challenge them and work with them. When you you don't have the backgrounds. How have you found that working with your daughters in terms of their opportunities?

Winnie da Silva 8:48

Yeah, I mean, I've been really proud of them, because they're very grounded in who they are, but yet, they're not. So, you know, blinded to taking input from their, you know, old mother and father. You know, they really are they, it's funny, because we've just now started to have people over for dinner. And, you know, you would think that with primarily adults at the table, you know, especially the two teenagers would be like out of their, you know, going glued to their phone and talking to their friends. But that's not true. They actually always want to be at the table talking to the adults. And they always have an opinion on what we're talking about, whether it's you know, politics, whether it's kind of what's happening in the world today. Whatever it is, they they want to be a part of those conversations. So I feel really proud of that, because I feel like they're engaged, they're involved and they're also not afraid to say what they think and engage with adults.

Colin Hunter 9:45

I would agree, I think there is that there's that confidence in him that will be the most socially confident you know, and goes back to basics when we're trying to order a takeaway, you know, just being able to pick up the phone and do that but, but they have be started to become much more vocal and The views and thoughts on what's going on, which has been been powerful.

Yeah, it's fun. You know, it's fun feeling like you've got people that live with you, that you can have some really fun conversations with, you know, and you're not always in like parenting mode, you know?

Yeah, you do wonder what's going to happen in two, three years, in my case when they're out of there, and you're going okay, so where's that banter coming from? Even though most of it's my expense, I'm fine with that, you know. Let's come back to you the business side, you've had an interesting journey from the Social Work to Bovis to the l&d side and then coming out into the MDM you do a lot of coaching, you do a lot of development work. And it taught me through the almost, I understand the drive to to accept people in the social piece, but what's driven you to this career? And and How satisfying is it for you?

So I discovered early on that I get bored easily, and I have really a hunger and a thirst to learn new things. So, you know, I'm the kind of person who if you say, Hey, can you do this? And maybe I've never done it before, but I want to, I will raise my hand and say, Yes, I could do that, which many people freak out. They freak out for me when I do that, but for some reason, that's just something that draws me back. And I think it's this this, you know, maybe it's because I get bored, maybe it's just because you know, I have the confidence to try something and know that, you know, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't, but I want to do it and the wanting to do it is maybe enough. So I think that that's been really a driver for me. And I realised actually consulting, when I was at Arthur Andersen was a great fit for me, even though I didn't maybe love the travel and was thinking, you know, long term, once I have kids, this is not going to be sustainable for me. But I loved it, you know, diving in and working with different clients and getting into their culture and, you know, trying to get to know people and figuring out the problems. And then like, you know, helping them kind of move forward and then going down to the next client. And I thought that was so fun. And so I was sad to leave. But of course, I went to one of our clients and I had worked with the CEO for when I was at Andersen. So when I went and joined the company was like, oh, yeah, I know, the CEO like this is going to be a great fit. So that was great. But I mean, I have to say, I love what I do, because it's, first of all, obviously, I get to say if I want to do it or not, right? So there's that freedom of choice, which is a beautiful thing. And I get to experiment. You know, I get to say, hey, I want to try this. And I want to go out there and do it. And I'm going to sort of say I do it. And I'm going to learn it. And I'm going to talk to people like Collin who have done it before and say, you know, how do you think about it. And so I think that drive for learning and growth for me personally as a driver. And then I get really excited working with clients who feel the same way about themselves in their life. Now that growth, and that learning might look different for them than it does for me. But man, it's so exciting to work with people who are like, I am driven to figure this out. Can you help me? And can we think about it together and work together on it? That's exciting. I love that.

Yeah. I think there's this piece about the all prepared for your spontaneity session. When you get in there with a client is it there's a hunger for me, I mean, I get bored very easily, but but they use so I want to get variety. And I want to get choice. First First, sometimes there's a piece about and I'm worst enemy for this. There's almost too much sprinkle too many things and not enough focus. And we had a brand audit for us a while ago where people said we love working with them, but we don't know what they do. Yeah. And it was that principle. We'll ask them they normally say Yeah, and so I suppose if I was if that was holding you down, because people listen to this might be thinking sounds like a great career Lord, she's doing, but how do I get to know whether this is for me? And how do I focus my specialisms? What would you say to that?

Gosh, I really struggled with that myself. I mean, I'm telling you right now, so many people over the last, like 15 years that I've been, you know, running my business. People have told me many times, like when do you need to focus like you're really, and every time they say that it kind of stresses me out. Because, like, if I had to just do coaching, or just do training, or just do teamwork, I don't think I would like my life as much. I mean, it really the way that I see what I do, each thing builds on each other. And the energy that I get from each one of those things is slightly different. But I need kind of the whole suite. It's like so I kind of have thought started to think about it. You know, what I do is like a portfolio of businesses and a portfolio of ways in which I get energy but I also provide my talent in around supporting and helping people change. So I have a hard time with that

question. I suppose you've covered every said, Well, I treat the holistic views. So you've given yourself scope to go, Well, I can do everything. Yeah, in some ways, from what I'm hearing underneath that, though, is that this is what I find. And this is where our work has taken us systems that people have, have multiple, you know, whether building relationships, managing their own energy, managing the freshness of their ideas, or developing their people, those systems, that it can be one or two of those that are out of kilter. So even if you're going to coach you're going to train it, you've got to have a toolkit to be able to prepare.

Yeah, no, absolutely, you have to have that you have to be able to, you know, have a perspective. I actually find, too, that people really underestimate themselves, when it comes to not only maybe their abilities, but even the experiences that they have, I think people are too narrow minded when it comes to, I've only done this thing so that so I only can do this thing. Versus I've done this thing, how can I use these same kinds of skills in a new way. So it's not like basically repurposing or reapplying what you already know to something else. And I think people don't don't think about things like that as maybe much as they should. Yeah,

I love that. Because Kelly works for me used to work in the hotel industry used to organise weddings, she constantly says, Well, if I can organise a wedding, I can organise you basically. I'm not sure I like the comparison. But yeah, but there is that piece about repurposing skills, and particularly nowadays, central with a lot of people, you know, the new skills coming in, we're talking about the agility to be able to be agile from one role to another as important. So an interesting philosophy. Yeah,

yeah. And I would, I would say, actually, going back to kids, you know, that's the thing that we tell our daughters is, the most important thing you should get from your education is learning how to learn. Because probably, you're going to have 10 jobs in your life. So you have to be able to be nimble around what you want to do what you can do, and figuring out navigating that throughout your life. Because you're probably not going to go down a one path career in your life. Some people still do, but probably not.

And so where have you tested something and failed? Let's just go down that route. Because you know, the be more wrong, there's a there's a title in there, but your sound and your sound perfect. And I love that. But there's a humble nature for you as well. So you're you're willing to say when you don't know or you know, you haven't got it right. What would you say your biggest error is? He said?

Well, there's two sort of specific stories that I think of when I think about things that maybe I shouldn't have done, or maybe where I didn't trust myself, because usually, I feel like that's where mistakes come from is, you know, maybe not initially trusting yourself. So two stories come to mind. I mean, one is, I guess it was maybe I remember, I'm trying to remember when it actually happened, I guess I was like, maybe five years into my business. And I kind of felt like, I wanted to take things to the next level, I wanted to do new things and different things. I wanted my current clients to see me a little bit differently. And I also wanted to expand and take on different clients. And so an opportunity came along to join a very small kind of consultancy. And they were all men older than me. And they were all had backgrounds in you know, large, you know, fortune 500 companies. One was a CEO at a smaller company. But you know, they were pretty, they had great credentials, especially compared to me. And so I thought, You know what, this might give me a good way to level things up a bit. So I decided to join them. And I was only there for three months. But it was interesting, and it was a good experience. I love the collaboration. I love working with other people, because of course, that's the downside of working for yourself. So I loved all that. But after a very short period of time, it was pretty clear that nobody was selling any work, except for me. And maybe because I had come from a consulting background, maybe because I had already been on my own for five years. And I also already had some clients. I was the only one selling work and they wanted to sort of, I guess, cut the salary. And then you know, all the work that was being sold was would kind of go to everybody. Well, since I was the only one selling work. It didn't really make sense to me. So I left and it was interesting because the response I got from my clients after that sort of little adventure, especially two of my long standing clients who I still work with today. Both said to me, you know, I'm really glad that you left because you didn't need them. I wasn't sure why you were working with them. But anyway, we're glad you're back. And by the way, we want you to do this work, which was interesting, because the work that they wanted me to do was different, and was sort of taking it to the next level. So that was an interesting experience, because again, it was sort of not really maybe trusting myself or trusting or being confident in kind of what I already had. And it was a good learning experience.

I think there's a couple of bits resonating for me because I've had two business partners in my time and I always had this feeling I had a need for business parents tell me how to run a business or tell me how to run a consultancy. And it is this almost an allusion of needing something that you know, Jamie smart, this book priority talks about with the teddy bear effect, but there's no rationality and it's our mind playing tricks on us. Yes. Thoughts in the moment going, I need somebody. And the times that are split from our business partners have been good reasons difficult, but good reasons to split. We've always been there moment of it. Yeah, I'm okay, I can do this. But we still need people around us, don't we? So yes, about getting the right type of people. So what have you learned about that? What what are the right type of people for you to work with?

That's an interesting question. I still think about that. And I'm still figuring that out. To be honest, it's funny, because I have worked with some really great people. But I have never been in sort of, except for the situation I've just described in a sort of what I would call a permanent relationship. Alright, so you and I have worked together. And I've loved working with you. And I love I still love your clients, you really do have great clients. No, but it really is a credit to you, Cullen, because you know, I think that the quality of your clients reflect the quality of you. And I think that that that means a lot. And so of course, as I was talking about before I am attracted to quality clients, people are always saying, Well, what kind of client Do you want to work with? And they always try to just, you know, have you put a client in a box? And for me, it's just like, Are they fun to work with? Are they motivated? Right, that's, that's all I kind of care about. But anyway, I think that what I learned about that, in terms of the people is, first of all integrity. I think that same drive of of learning, high quality of work, and really just sort of the sounds really weird, but really being sort of serious about the work, and really taking what you do seriously, and most people do. But I think when it comes to do you really want to make a difference? Like do you really want to have that impact? And it's not just a job, right? It's and and you know, even when working for yourself, you know, it can get tiring. And at some point, you're like, Okay, let me just do the work and be done. But like, I never want to get to that point. And so the people that I work with, I want them to inspire me to keep going just as much as hopefully, maybe I inspire them.

Yeah, it's interesting, because I think you're right, some of the expressions somebody once gave me said, Colin, you need to be more careful. And I was like, I don't want to hear football, you know, I want to take risks. Yes. She said, Well, no, actually, what I mean is you need to be full of care. Oh, and it's, it's a real lesson for me, because one of the things I've always done is trusted you implicitly with clients or relationships with whoever it is more in, wherever you're going into. But there's a skill in doing that, to engender somebody with that trust to do this and, and, you know, full of care about how you fulfil a project, start a project and some, some people are brilliant at starting projects. And then they're brilliant at being on stage. But they forget about the the formalising the closing, covering off handing over, so I wanted to just I'd written down the word relationships as you were talking, because that is a real skill that you have.

For me, you know, inherently being in relationship has always been something that I've enjoyed, you know, my, when I my mom has this memory of me, I don't really remember, but I think I was like five years old, and I was went missing in the neighbourhood. And it was because I was walking around trying to figure out who lived there and who they were and I can't came back saying, oh, did you know this person live there? And you know, that person live there? And mom's like, oh, my gosh, where have you been for the last three hours? So I think that I really enjoy relationship. But it's interesting. I've been learning this about myself. And in fact, a client that I just started working with yesterday, said to me, you know, the reason that I picked you out of the other two coaches that I interviewed, or you know, during the Fit conversation, he said to me, because you're very intellectual, you're very analytical when it comes to, you know, analysing and having these kinds of conversations about you know what you see because we were talking about his 360 report. And I think that I have a kind of a weird combination of being really friendly. And maybe even people think that, you know, I laugh too much. But then I also have this really analytical side to me. And so it's sort of a weird combination, and I don't And then sometimes I wonder if people know what to do with me, because of that sort of weird combination.

I think it is interesting because it is, the bit that I suffer from, I don't do analysis, I go with my gut. As one somebody had said, Ah, gut feeling I saw you're saying goat feeling weird tradition of feeling goats to make decisions. You know, I love that story. And I was joking, said a goat feeling. But I've always gone with my gut feel. But it's interesting. My father would be proud of me now, my grandfather been prouder that I take data and the rigour and the measurement, whereas it used to be a bit of tap dancing show. And it is funny because you do have this beautiful way of combining warmth report, by being very clear about outcomes measures, with the coaches. A few of the people that you worked with, for me would say exactly that.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I think that's why I probably didn't, it wasn't gonna work for me to be a social worker for the rest of my life, because I was too focused on measures and when you're working with, I mean, honestly, kids who were born addicted to crack in the South Bronx, you know, trying to move that along and feeling like you're hitting some goals. You know, God bless the social workers out there who are doing that work. But I think that that was going to be hard work for me, because you're right, I think I'm driven by Okay. Let's see some progress here. Let's move this along.

version of my teacher at school going Yeah, okay. So let's see some progress. I'd love to bring on that thing. Because there's a lot of the work we're doing at the moment is about James clear atomic habits, systems and habits. And that, you know, he has that quote, which is you don't realise rice is a lovely, very objectives, you fall to the level of your systems. And he had that lovely story. And I'm probably going to wrong about the the GIs who are addicted to heroin when around Vietnam, and then predicted there was this massive problem when they came back, because they would be so addicted, but the addiction rate drops or yes, because the system have changed. Yeah, yes, the triggers are changed. So what's your views on the work you do in terms of the systems affecting leaders? And how we can adopt these and change these look?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a huge one. Because not only our behaviours, but I think the way that we think about things, the stories that we believe about ourselves about other people, or about the way things are, can also be triggered by our environments, and the systems that we're in. And I think they can be supported, but also undone by habits. You know, if you think about someone who is, you know, that that broken record in their mind, you know, I'm not good enough, or, you know, I can't do this, or I've never done this before. And that broken record, in some ways is a thinking habit. Right? And so how do we get in the habit of thinking about something differently? Now, this is very hard. Let's just let's be clear, right? This is not something that you do, even in a couple of months like this takes years of awareness and thinking about and, and being reflective about what you do think about what you would rather think about, you know, how you're going to get there. So I really do think that the systems and the habits are a key component for leaders really being able to change, think differently, behave differently. And I think when people say to me, in fact, someone just said it the other day, I can't remember who did I think it was, maybe even a client, that, you know, people people can't change who they are, they can't change their personalities. And on some level, I think that's actually true. But on another level, I think there are certain things that either we think about that's really causing us to be blocked, or there are habits or their behaviours that we do, or have that get in the way or really impact others negatively. Those things we can change, you know, we may be you know, introverts and we may be someone who would rather, you know, maybe not spend time with people or really quiet during meetings. But you know what, sometimes you probably need to speak up, right? Sometimes you need to maybe even interrupt someone as uncomfortable as that makes you feel. So I think that it's not about changing who we are. It's being selective about what are some things that I'm doing, or I'm thinking about that are really not serving me well. And then what are some What are one or two things that I can do to, to make a shift there change those things that could really potentially have a big impact as small as that change might be.

I love the incremental change piece, because there is something that can be small changes that massively impact on on how you come across an AMA, you know, for in my work, authenticity is this word that gets thrown around all the time, while you've got to be authentic. However, if you think about what authenticity is, it's many of our London Business School said authenticity is about a growth piece. So my authentic self now is very different to my authentic self. When I was back, you know, five years ago thinking I needed a business partner, you're growing, and you're changing habits, and you're changing the way you think. And I was talking about to somebody earlier on the recommending a book, and it is about fear, but they're describing fear, which is the loudest guests at a dinner party. The analogy of changing it from fear is just another guest to the dinner party. And there's other voices out there. So how are you going to bring all those different voices into a conversation and just allow fear, just to be one of them? And I'm starting to think more hold on second verse. I always think about fear and it's the gospel, it switches off your mind. But if you start to think about his voice, how would you dumb down those that voice? And how do you bring the other voices in? That is a simple way of a mindset of shifting habits. Yeah,

I think what you're saying, and I think just to sort of restate what you just said, which is I think the fear can get in the way of EBR being authentic. I think, I think the other thing that can get in the way is and maybe this has to do with fear, too. But we actually aren't in tune with what we want, or who we are. So we can't even be authentic, because we don't really know who we are, or haven't taken the time to really reflect on or listen as to who we are. And I think that's hard. Because it's being authentic is not an on or off switch, right? I absolutely agree with Erminia or Ibarra and saying that it evolves. Not only does it evolve, though, but you have to understand where it's evolving, like to be authentic, you have to actually know how that shows up for you. And so I think, and that's actually quite a bit of the work that I do with leaders too, is like, helping them tap into that. And you know, back to the kind of the fear thing is, sometimes the things that are most get in our way, a lot of times those are the things that we're also really good at, we're just using it in a way that's, that's getting in our way, but to really tap into those strengths and recognise them because many times we just take those strengths for granted, because we've always been good at those things, right? And so we don't really embrace the fact that wow, this is like really a differentiator. This is this is really helpful for people. Because you know, we just kind of take it for granted.

I think you're spot on. I just, I'd love to understand, you know, when you're coaching people around that, what are some of the things that come up in that conversation? Things that their strengths may be that they're getting in their own way? What are some examples? So

yeah, I one kind of example that I think of is a couple people actually, that I'm working with, in, you know, private equity. And, you know, these are people that are amazing, right, they have top, they've come from top schools, they've come from, you know, usually from Harvard Business School, you know, they've always done well in their life. And by the way, they've done really well as analysts they've done really well earlier in the career. And by the way, this is just private equity. This is, you know, just a lot of a lot of people in a lot different, different industries. But my point being is that they get to a point where now they work their way up. And now they're sort now they're the leader. And leadership requires a whole different set of skills, which, which we know, but they've never really fully developed or allowed themselves to embrace, you know, who they are, not only as a leader, but maybe generally, because they've sort of been, you know, too busy climbing, you know, this ladder and running this rat race. And so in some ways, I think that the coaching allows people to take a breath and to reflect on not only their strengths, but to think about, you know, because some of their strengths might be really being analytical and really being able to drive who really, really drive themselves and drive the team. But when you step back and think about, Okay, those are great things, how do I then transfer that to? How do I want to develop maybe the softer side of the leadership skills that I'm going to need to be successful using that same drive and analytical nature, even when it comes to, let's say, emotional intelligence? Right? So sometimes I've got clients who really struggle with, you know, being emotionally available or connecting to people on a personal personal level. And it's like, okay, you may not feel comfortable with that. And that's okay. But usually you're not going to feel comfortable doing something you don't do often. And so that's normal. So it's almost normalising the fact that it feels uncomfortable, because you're doing it for the first time, or you're doing it consistently for the first time. And that makes them feel more comfortable knowing like, oh, it's gonna get easier. And bringing that analytical view into it, that a bunch of reps at it, you know, a bunch of times doing it over and over, you're going to get better, just like you did that when you were becoming really good at modelling Finance, Financial models.

Yeah. And I do love them, because it's this piece about knowledge speaks wisdom listens, and they've had skill in terms of being able to solve problems analytical. And ultimately, now they're being asked to be more curious and allow other people develop those skills. And curiosity is funny how our, our educational systems, our cultural systems, you know, doing some work in India, where knowledge is, is king, working with them to shift their mindset to be having knowledge and having education and degrees. And having is, is great, but wisdom gets you so much further in a leadership role in terms of bringing other people in developing other people. So I get what you mean by that as a powerful bit. Yeah,

yeah. And you're right, I think I would definitely say that the curiosity piece can really open people up to really anything almost, you know, like, Can you just be curious about that person and how they're feeling or what they really think or how this could work differently. I mean, Curiosity can lead to long a lot of really good paths, whether it's relationships or innovation.

It killed the cat. But you know, it's good. To know, I think there's this piece for me linking this into this is just this mindfulness piece and meditation piece, because that's one of the biggest things I took away is that we're in the knowledge he was given to me was, you're standing in the middle of a road with all these cars flying at you, which are thoughts. And actually, you're trying to deal with all the fighting can't deal or step out of the roads, and start to let the cars continue to go, but be choisi. You know, why some be using which ones you're going to pick up? And you're going to think about work on. And I think most of our lives, were driven achievers, early on, grades, exams, pieces, and it's a bit of wisdom to step back and start to see things in a different light is very difficult for most people, because they've always been successful a different way. Yeah, it's so

hard. I mean, I actually I hate doing that, like, I would rather be busy. And I'd rather be going and doing, and I hate reflecting like, taking breaks. But you're right, that's the only way you're gonna get there. That's the only way to do it.

Yeah, if my email inbox is not full, I'm worried. So you know, I need to respond it. Nobody wants to talk to me, because my inputs. Fantastic. I want to just come and just coming towards the end of our conversation, you have loved everything you talked about and the relationships, but it just the relationships take you to and your mistakes have taken you to a place where you are now and starting to think about, you know, what do I do next, with your time? What's making you passionate at the moment,

I think what's making me passionate is I want to figure out how to be less of a consumer and more of a creator. And alongside with that, how can I maybe use what I learn and the work that I do, sort of individually with different clients? How can I maybe make that more widely available, you know, whether it's through the podcast that I have, or whether it's through writing, or speaking, would really like to figure out how to sort of crystallise or really pull together some of the things that I do in a different way than what I do. Now. I really would love to do that. I'd love to do more of that. I'm doing some of it. But we'd love to do more of that. But the other thing that really drives me, which sounds like it's maybe different than this, but the thing that really, I want to figure out how to do better is just bringing people together, you know, and really helping people, not only connecting the dots for themselves in their own world, but connecting with other people, and how other people can help them. I'll give you like a really small example. So one of my clients said that she sent in my podcast to her brother, and then her brother was going to actually connect with some of the people that I interviewed on LinkedIn and maybe even reach out to a couple of them. And it was like, I love that that's exactly what I want. I want people I want people that I know to connect with each other and to help each other. It's almost like can I create like a group coaching with all the people and not even from a professional standpoint, from a personal standpoint, but that's that's what really drives me is creating committee. Unity and also really creating, creating, you know, creating content but creating opportunities to engage.

So that's a nice playground mentality, isn't it? It's about getting people involved engaged, but you know, almost a vehicle to pull that together with ideas and thoughts, all of the

Yeah, I would hope. That's my hope.

So if you had if you had one opportunity to go sell your ship out of the harbour, face some rougher seas. Yeah. And Go play somewhere that almost your dinner party guests, which is fear would say, can't do this. Yeah. What where would be your refer CZ, you'd love to go play?

Oh, gosh, I don't know, I'd have to think about that. I mean, I feel like I'm sort of teetering on the edge of what I'm already doing. But I think there's always this element for me of, you know, there's a distinction between doing more and doing something different, that's, again, of quality, and that will make a difference. And sometimes I have a, I have a hard time making that distinction. And so, you know, kind of thinking about because because when I think about doing things, you know, I really am impatient with myself. And it's not so much imposter syndrome. It's more like, why can't I do this faster? And why can't I do this better, faster? And so I think I'm struggling with that. I think right now, for me, the thing is, you know, trying to maybe take some of the things that I'm doing in my business to the next level, but doing it in a way that I'm still enjoying my life.

Yeah, is so important. I think it's, you know, part of what I'm trying to look at the 18 to 20 year olds and trying to increase beauty in their opportunity to have more equity and career opportunities. That's the passion. But it's almost that sometimes you wait till you get older, like me to think about right, so what can I give back? But it is, it's a purposeful focus, that I think we need just to give back some of the stuff we've already learned and other helped other people who can afford to pay for it and give it back somewhere. So yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, kind of coming full circle, you know, I really think whether you're 13 years old, or whether you're 33, or you know, 63, maybe even just that you get in touch with what you want to do, and try and do it. And I think the wanting to do is much more important than the Can you do it. You know, because I think we get so stuck on Well, I don't know if I have the skills to do that. I don't think that matters, you know, if you really want to do something. Now, if it's, you know, maybe being a famous pianist, if you don't matter. No, maybe that's a little different, right? You know, maybe you could be a decent one. It's starting at 63. I don't know. But the idea is like, what do you want? And then try to do that and find people that are doing it and how you can get, you know, help or inspiration from those people. But do what you want. Like you should be doing what you want.

Yeah, there's a book in my hand at the moment, and it's called Hell yeah. Or hell no. To tell the difference. But it's by son Kyle, and I love it. Hell yeah. Hell no. And I think it's choosing what you want to do and say, hell yeah, I'm gonna do that. So

I like that. I'm gonna write that down. Why

don't you just think if anybody wants to be in contact with you get to hear more about what you're doing and listen to your podcast. Most importantly, from here. How do they get in contact with

you? Yeah, so they can reach me at well, my website I should say is WWW dot when he does silver.com My email is when yet when a fred.org. And as I mentioned, the podcast is Transformative Leadership conversations with Winnie de Silva.

And we'll put all those details on the details of this podcast when he has always it's a pleasure. And hope to have you back on the podcast soon. And I think I'm gonna come on your podcast and

you sure are Yeah, you're coming up very soon. So I'm excited about that. Time today, oh, thank you, Collin for having me. This was such a fun conversation. I appreciate it.

That was a great conversation when he is never fails to, to bring to life some of the key issues in her learning how to learn. For me stuck out in that conversation that she's whether it's dealing with eight year olds and teenagers or whether it's a career that's worked from social work to Bovis to her learning piece. It's that hunger and thirst and you know, ending where the hell yeah, hell no. When he puts herself 100% into the work she does on a podcast, His Excellency talks to a variety of people and their stories and It was a delight to be on there. So it was a delight to welcome her on on here and to to end with that concept of repurposing your ideas and your learning and your skills into other things. And that bit about I'm sure a number of us are in that boat, we get bored easily and how do we repurpose what we're doing? And reenergize and refresh that. So love that conversation. Look forward to hearing your feedback, and I'll look forward to working you another episode of the leadership tells podcasts