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Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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124: "Life is not happening to me. I am actively choosing to be present and a participant in this life." Recovering Type A personality and bullying amongst military spouses with Emily Millman

Military Spouse, physical and mental health advocate and nurse Emily Millman chooses to see military life as an interesting adventure. She shares her experience transporting her dogs from South Korea to the states, how she copes with the complete loss of autonomy, bullying amongst military spouses, the importance of mental health, and much more.

Connect with Emily at https://www.instagram.com/scrubs.squats.sass/

For our latest updates: https://mailchi.mp/1271e485f1f0/holdingdownthefort

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Jen Amos 0:00

Alright, hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. I am your Creator and co host Jenn Ramos. And of course, as always, I have my amazing co host with me, Jenny Lynch troupe Jennylyn. Our listeners cannot see this, but we are totally twinsies today. Welcome back to the show.

Speaker 1 0:18

We are Thank you. I'm glad to be here. And yes, apparently this is what like a year together looks like we show up. You know, first really not even in the same state wearing the same clothes.

Jen Amos 0:29

So hilarious because like, my mother in law, like got me this whole outfit like yesterday because we're about to, you know, go to West Virginia and the weather's already dropping, and it's I get gotta get ready for that winter time. But all that being said, we are really excited because we of course have another incredible guest on our show here today. Hold down the fort. Let me go ahead and bring her on. We have Emily melamin, who is a military spouse, physical and mental health advocate, and nurse. So without further ado, Emily, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 0:57

Thank you so much for having me, although I definitely missed the cozy plaid memo. And in Vermont right now, so that's like totally the MO that's the vibe right now. So

Jen Amos 1:09

Oh, man. Yeah. What's the weather there is a beginning to drop up there too.

Speaker 2 1:14

It's cold. Yeah, we're down in the 40s at night already. Oh, it's been raining and generally miserable. So it's been very nice and cozy inside. Hot. Yeah, baby and baby snuggles hanging out and also can't see it. But we also have theater on the podcast today. And he's wearing his comfy cozy pink polka dot fleece jammies today. So he's maybe fitting in the butt a little bit. Yeah,

Jen Amos 1:38

yeah. He's he's making up for you. I love it. Well, Emily, as I mentioned, it's so great to have you on here. I know that you had applied to be on our show for I think months ago. So I'm just glad that we finally have this opportunity to chat with you and also to our listeners. If you want to learn more about Emily you can check her out on Instagram scrubs, period squats period and SAS. So is that scrubs, period squats period SAS. So real quickly. Emily, how did you come up with that name, because I think that's a really cool name.

Speaker 2 2:06

Gosh, so when I started like health, fitness, nutrition mindset coaching years ago, there's sort of like this pressure to come up with the perfect name. And it was nerve racking, playing with all these different ideas. And I ultimately, I was really into like the idea of alliteration. Scrubs because I'm a nurse squats because working out and then the Sass is just sort of an innate part of my personality. So it took it took a little bit to get there. But it's given me a little bit of license to let the sassy part out sometimes, which I think is kind of fun.

Jen Amos 2:42

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's very fitting considering how like you are the mermaid hair girl, you

Unknown Speaker 2:47

know, like, Yeah,

Jen Amos 2:48

I think you really represent your brand. And I think it's clever. It's like three S's, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I thought I'd start by asking you, Emily, you know, as you know, this show is called holding on the forks. And so I want to open up by asking you, because your life has been changing a lot as of late. And what is holding down the fort look like for you nowadays?

Speaker 2 3:06

Yeah, absolutely. So as you mentioned, we'd originally connected months ago, and at that point, I was living in South Korea, and we were sort of in this state of flux. My son had just been born. And we were about to PCs back overseas, which was a six week turnaround between those two events, which was a great time, then we didn't really know where we were headed, or what it was going to look like. So at this point, Theodore and I are physically in Vermont, staying with my family. My husband, who is active duty Army is on a rotation in Poland. So right now, in essence, our holding down the fourth moment is primarily parents, we were chatting before about, I never expected to be co parenting with my parents, but here we are, you. And the other piece, that's a big chunk of my life right now is financially sort of trying to recuperate from our overseas experience, which because we have jobs, financially quite devastating. And we were fairly well set up previously. And it costs a lot of money to send dogs back and forth overseas. So I'm also a nurse, I work very part time in my small local emergency department. And then of course, with COVID. That's also a really sort of big hard, like, er, nursing is always an adventure. But with everything that's happening in the world right now. That's an even more crazy adventure. So for me holding down the fort right now is taking care of the Oh, and then also sort of working, trying to support my community locally, while working, building back finances and then also continuing to sort of support this platform that I built with scrub squat Sass, in doing my best sort of inspire people to take care of themselves. And sometimes that's easier than others. But right now I'm in a phase of really just trying to walk the walk. And yeah, come along with me if you want to, but I am in survival mode

Jen Amos 5:15

at the moment. Well, you know, I have to commend you for just the way you've been describing your whole experience so far, I feel like you've reframed it in a very positive way using words like interesting and adventure. So kudos to you. And that amazing attitude. We were talking a little bit about this offline. And Jenny Lynn had something she also related to so Jenny Lind, just want to check in with you and see if there's anything you want to add.

Speaker 1 5:41

Oh, man, I mean, kudos to you for like using this tour to to recoup and rebuild and CO parent with your own parents, then they're done that very helpful to have that support. Also, probably one of the most strange experiences of my life as being in my 30s, with two young children living with my parents, again, is not a reality I ever saw coming when I got married, ever. And then we did it again. We did it like for a year and then had six months back at our house and then went back because my husband did back to back deployment. So you know, kudos to you, though, for rebuilding and then setting yourself up? Well, I mean, I have to say that, that was one of the great in addition to the help, and the love and support, like that was one of the great things we were able to do to was like, get on our feet, because then we moved to a really expensive duty station. So it was nice to have that time of, you know, not having to worry about all those things.

Unknown Speaker 6:32

Yeah, absolutely.

Jen Amos 6:34

I'm very intrigued by your experience in trying to, like send your dogs from one place to another. I don't think we've really talked about that on the show yet. Jennylyn on what that experience is like, so how is it like? I mean, it's one thing to send furniture and wait for months to get it in the house. But what's it like to, you know, have to deal with transporting dogs from one place to another? Oh, my

Speaker 2 6:55

gosh, I could talk about this all day too. So, obviously transporting know from CONUS to CONUS duty stations is it can be challenging. There's definitely no some hotels are cool with dogs. Some aren't. I mean, on how far you're going. It's definitely can be challenging with no just physical space in the car, and how well your pets do when you're driving for long distances, things like that. And Korea was my husband's first duty station. I had been traveling nursing for a few years prior to enlisting. So we had done cross country trips multiple times before and had traveled lots within the country with the dogs. But this was the first time I'd ever flown with them. And it varies country to country. My Familiarity is primarily with Korea to and from Korea, Korea is considered to be not a rabies free country, but very, very close to a rabies free country. And they haven't had a case of rabies since like the 80s or something. So every dog or cat coming into the country has to have proof of a rabies titer test that like not only do you have to have red rabies vaccination proof, but also proof that they have antibodies against it. That test is very expensive. And there's only two labs that do it. So it's a long time. And that's been no, I've also been sort of like very tight in the dog world while I was in Korea. So with COVID It was especially rough with people trying to move back and forth. And then pre COVID It was expensive. It was $3,500 total for my boxer who is wow five pounds. And he's tall, he had to go in a fairly large crate. But because he's a squishy Faced Dog or break he's the phallic is the technical term. He had to go by professional pet shipper. There's sort of three different ways you can do it. If it's small enough pet, you can take them in the cabin with you, which is specific to active duty military only most airlines no airlines at all recognize emotional support animals, including military flights, which is a new change since I moved back and forth. So they have to be very small to fit in cabin. Yeah. Or they can go on some flights. Again, at this point, I think overseas is only available to active duty military through any US airline. There's limited spaces sort of like in a pressure controlled temperature controlled area in the cargo hold like underneath where you sit in the plane. Or there's professional pet shippers which is called Manifest cargo that basically airlines sort of can make money from shipping big things by themselves so you shut them separately for yourself. And that involves no careful professional handling and much sort of safer environment. There's been a couple of really sad stories recently there was a cat in Hawaii who went like along with somebody on their ticket, not with a professional shipper, and the baggage handlers broke her crate with a forklift. And she went missing in the, you know, in the cargo area, and I don't believe they ever found her.

That's like my biggest fear with like traveling with dogs or pets is like, I hear that pets have to go to like the bottom of the plane. And it's like, who watches them? Who takes care of them? You know, and if you're going for a long flight, so like, for as long as my husband and I have had a dog, I mean, fortunately, we've only been in the US with our dog, but we would just road trip everywhere. We're like, we are not taking our dog on a plane. I mean, you know, like you our dog is like a 70 pound, you know, animals. So it's like, no, we are not, you know, we're not putting on a plane.

Yeah, it's really, really scary. And so that's one of the like, sort of bummers as manifest cargo using a professional shipper is really expensive, which is cost prohibitive for so many families, particularly no active duty enlisted. That's a really rough, but it's also much safer. And in some cases, you don't have any choice at all. And then it's gotten much more expensive. him going back the same exact trip a year and a half later was 5500 instead of 3500. And that, wow. Going to continue to climb it looks like and more and more airlines are sort of refusing to take pets at all, because they can't stack them where they're shipping. No. An example that I was given is like if it's mushrooms for a fancy restaurant in New York City, they can vertically stack that and charge for cubic space. So they can make much more money than they can with just one dog crate. They can add anything on top of it. Yeah, so total random tangent.

I'm just especially curious about because it's like, I feel like there's a part of me that feels like I can't, I can't really, like truly travel the way I want to like my dog dies of old age or something, you know, because otherwise, I mean, you know, he has like separation anxiety. And so like, one of us is always with him. And I can't even fathom the idea of like putting him at the bottom of a plane. And I mean, even I didn't even consider the cost of that. So that is just so crazy how a year and a half later, it just spiked like that. Yeah, COVID

Especially in Korea, we saw a ton of that people would get a pet spot on the military flight out there. Of course, they for some reason they have 10 pet slots on each fight flight going to Korea, but only five coming back. So and then people really commonly adopt dogs while they're in Korea. So but then they weren't able to get a space coming back. And yeah, are then in this like, Okay, well, I can't afford $5,000 to ship this dog home. There's no other way for me to get my dog home. I guess I'm very homing by God. So there's just like, rampant, like prevalence in that community of people rehoming or abandoning pets, including pets that they brought from the US and have like, raised and they end up and in Korea, this is a yucky topic, but I'm in Korea, that's especially scary because dogs that get abandoned, truly abandoned, are at risk of being scooped up at dog meat farms, not just they're gonna be in a shelter, and now they're gonna bounce from home to home, which is also a totally real possibility, but they can also be

literally eaten. Yeah, those are some of the realities of dogs that I sort of blocked out of my memories. And it was like knowing like, that's a real thing that could happen and does happen, you know, actively to dogs. But yeah, I guess I really just wanted to ask because I was like really, really, really curious about that. And, you know, despite all the moves that I've done, it's all been in America, so I haven't had to worry to ship my dog in that, you know, kind of fashion.

Yeah, my best advice for anybody who's going to be PCs, ng o CONUS. With pets is just start the process really early. There's several Facebook groups if you search for no moving overseas with pets, there's lots you can find. There's a specific group for Korea called Flying pets Korea. That is where I learned all of the things that I know. But yes, start. As soon as you get orders learning what you need, because the process takes a long time. If you need those rabies titer tests,

there has to be like a podcast show out there that is all about like traveling with pets. Like I bet you if I look it up, I'm going to find it because it seems like such an interesting topic. Really good. But

there should be. Yeah,

I bet I can search for it. And I'll find it. But I was like, Huh, that's a really good topic. So speaking of which, Emily, it sounds like you've been able to, you know, having been in the military life for a couple of years now. Like you're fairly new as a military spouse. It sounds like you've really gotten a handle on things very quickly. But one of the things and I see you're rolling your eyes already, is that one of the lessons that you want to share, you know on our show is coping with the complete loss of autonomy. So even though it sounds like you have been on top of your journey so far in regards to what you've been sharing with us, I know that it sounds like there was a lot of letting go at the same time in order to adapt to this life.

Oh my gosh. So I am a very recovering type A personality My mom likes to talk about when I was a kid, she needed to give me a 15 minute warning before the 15 minute warning before it was time to leave. And if you had told me that I would end up married to somebody in the military where I was going to get no 10 day notice I'm an overseas move. I would have laughed in your face and told you, you were on another planet. But here I am. So yes, one of my first experiences I should preface this with I had no military experience at all whatsoever. This when I met my now husband, he was not in the military only revealed to me that that was his lifelong dream after I'd already fallen hook line and sinker for him. I had to like make the make that decision of Now am I really interested in signing up for this and not really knowing super well what I was getting into. Were also older when he enlisted, he enlisted at

30. So I didn't know you can enlist that I I've always made the assumption that you have to be like a new young 20s or something to enlist, but that's really interesting to know at 30. Yeah,

he went through basic training with somebody who I think was 32 was the oldest. And I believe that's the oldest to they'll let you and I'm sure it's also good of jobs dependents to some degree. But I also know that recruitment and retention are huge issues. So it wouldn't surprise me if they're relaxing it further rather than less smell. But yeah, so my first experiences were sort of Facebook derived and trying to lean in. I only personally knew one family that was military. I grew up in Vermont, and we do have national guard here. But it's not a super common thing for people to be active duty in my area. And I grew up in a household that it was sort of like a like, that's what you do if you can't do something else. So again, I'm not I'm not saying that's my Yeah. But that was sort of my vibe growing up. Mm hmm. So my husband like, No, his recruiter put me down for this Facebook group that I guess they were giving to all of the new spouses at the time. And I sort of pinned all of my hopes and dreams on, like, Okay, I'm going to get into this space, and I'm going to connect with other people who are like, not stoked about this, but to be okay, and like, we're going to teach each other and learn, like, I'm going to figure it all out, it's going to be okay. And then I got accepted into that Facebook group, like four days later. And it was just post after post after post, like, God bless and protect my soldier, I cry every day that they're gone. And I was like, oh, no, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not my I can't do that. And of course, I did later, like, I have since like, found people and connect with people that this is not the no life that they would have picked for themselves. And sort of in that space of like, No, I'm not super into this. But I'm also not going to gripe about it. And we're going to look at it as an interesting adventure. And we're gonna roll with

it go.

But yeah, so it's definitely been an interesting adventure. And the sort of immediate, overbearing sense right off the bat, like even the word that they use for anybody who's I guess, new to the show and isn't familiar with military life, they use the word dependents for family members, and I had been, have always been an incredibly independent human being. And even just that terminology, like rocked me for a long time. And I had a really hard time with it. Definitely a total sense of like I was demoted from no college educated, young professional working in like a respected field and no, feeling like I was like, you know, a real person doing real things, no playing at adulting. And then went from that to you are an accessory to your husband, and you only exist because of him. And your entire existence is dependent on him dependent on where he what he's doing. And that is so hard. And I really think and based on the people, the other people that I've spoken to about this, I also really think this tends to be harder for people who come from another life into the military, and less so if you go straight in as like a younger adults, like if you go straight in from high school, if you go straight in from college, there's obviously still lots of hard things. But I think you can sort of build your sense of identity in that space. Whereas I had built my sense of identity elsewhere, and then sort of just had it stripped, it was like you no matter at all, like you are a hassle you are a burden. You are no just like no depend upon, like, like, sort of get thrown out there. And that was really hard for me. So I had to navigate this space. And when I was thinking about like what I would be able to share with you. That's one of the things that I think has been A huge part of my experience as a military spouse is navigating in each area. And each phase and each season what my identity looks like, and had to change multiple times, which is really frustrating, but also allows for some exploration, which is really cool.

Yeah, absolutely.

There's so many similarities in our story. I mean, my husband was already enlisted when we met. But I mean, he was also considered old when he enlisted. So he was exceptionally old when he was picked up for OCS and became an officer. So we've always lived in that weird in between two of like, we're too old for the people whose rank is the same as my husband's. But we're too young for the people who are like we're too junior to be with the people who are our age. So it's, that's a weird life on itself. I mean, just that very small piece. But similarly, when I met and married my husband, I remember my mom saying to me, like, Yeah, I mean, who ever thought that this is what you would do? And I like, looked at her. And I was like, What do you mean? She's like, Yeah, I mean, you told me you're like, 16, you were never marrying anyone in the military. And I was like, Well, I was very wise, then like, apparently, you know, I was my wisest at 16. And knew how all the things were going to turn out. Because here we are, you know, almost 13 years in, like, I'm still here as a military spouse. But I mean, I like chuckled in solidarity, mostly over that word dependent, because like, it just makes my skin crawl. And it made me sweat a little bit, as you're saying it. And it's interesting, because as a Navy spouse, even though that moniker still applies, like, I have heard so much for my army spouse, friends, like, it is just such a crushing thing on that side, like, I'm great, but like, we still get it some, but I don't think we get it quite like you guys get it. And for that, I'm grateful because it is hard. I mean, I was the same. When I met and married my husband, I had a house, a car job, all of it was paid for all on my own. He was the one living in the barracks, you know, 25 Wow, like, you know, all the things and I knew what I was gonna do. And then all of a sudden, like, when we moved because of his career, like, I mean, that whole and I was a young mom, like the first time we moved, I have a two year old and a three year old and you know, had quit my job and went to this new place and was dependent upon Matthews job for finances and where we were and what we were going to do, and had a an extraordinarily difficult time with it. Because at the same time, I was still like, a young mom going, what is my life right now? Like, there are these people that need me and they never sleep? And, and also, we're in a strange town, and no, and I mean, honestly, like, we are eight ish years out from that. And I'm almost 40 and have finally, like, been able to come to terms with like, I had to have that reckoning, and it was hard. I mean, it was years for me, like, I have journal upon Journal of just like, what is happening, you know, and it's, but it's only been the past couple years that I've really like, not only embraced like the military spouse portion, and I want to like stress portion, because I think there for a while, I was a little lost. And that's what I was like, especially the duty station we were in, there was such an emphasis on what do you do? And when I would respond, I stay at home with my children because my husband is active duty our to get that, Okay, moving on, like, and they would literally like walk away to somebody else. And only for the time period that I had a job with the USO where I could go, I'm a project coordinator for the USO did people hang around and like, still want to learn what I did. But stay at home mom was not a qualifier. Anybody wanted to talk about? You know, that's been the last couple years that I've been able to go, Yeah, I'm a military spouse. And I really like that identifier, but it is not my entire identity. And honestly, like, I've never really claimed the dependent one other than the fact that that is where our Financing came from. But that was a little different.

It's hard. It's really hard to go from like you are your own person, and especially as a new parents to then have to, I can't imagine like at least I had sort of time to wrestle with that before I became a parent because then when you become a parent, your entire identity is changing anyway, my heart goes out to you. That's a really, really hard. That's a really hard transition.

Yeah, it was definitely I mean, I had a master's degree in a real job, like all of a sudden was relegated to stay at home mom of two that nobody wanted to talk to you because I didn't do anything and I'm thinking but I do a lot of things like I do a lot of things. So it was definitely an interesting spirits, it took a few years and a few scars to get over

that. Whenever people talk about this stay at home mom thing and they're like, oh, like you're not doing anything. I think of those. It's like a trip in the last year or so on Facebook could be like, describe what you do for work like without saying what you do for work. And it's like you literally as a parent, like are responsible 24/7 365 days a year exceptional and occasional break here and there. So keeping small humans alive that are constantly trying to die, like trying to hit their heads tread choke themselves, like they're just constantly try and they can't do anything for themselves when they're little or no, then they're No, you look ahead, and they're teenagers, and then they're trying to do all sorts of other things. Like your job is to allow most teenagers, that's a very big job. And who else? No, I'm a nurse. And my job at work is obviously like high pressure, whatever. But when I clock out, I go home and I done in theory, but you don't get to do that when you have small movements. Like that's the

Yeah, it is. I mean, I have almost teenagers now. And they're still no clocking out and their issues are totally different. And most days, they're still trying not to take care of themselves by doing really stupid things like as babies, you're just doing unintentional stupid things. But like as almost teenagers, you're doing purposeful, stupid things that I'm still like, what is like, what are you doing? Like, why, why? Why? And then I mean, I'm like, right now my husband's on CD. So I'm 90% of the time like single parenting with all of the y's that come with teenage boys that I fundamentally don't understand.

Just sitting over there waiting for those prefrontal cortexes to finish developing. It is a 10 years to go.

Long. Wait long wait.

I just love hearing you guys talk about kids. Because, you know, my husband and I are having those talks now of like, wanting to start a family and I told Jenny Lynn, I want to have five kids, and I'm gonna have him as fast as I can. I do. My mom comes from a family of five siblings. So I'm like, I can do it too. I wouldn't do it. I can, I can, I can knock it out. But I think part of why I gravitate toward a lot of mothers is because I hope that I build a big enough network of moms, so that when I start having kids, like, the last thing I could feel is a sense of shame or guilt, or, you know, like, those are like two big feelings that I just want to like not exist, knowing that I have an army of moms who have been through it. And, and that, you know, you also show up anyway, in the way that you do and you're all rockstars No, like, so just, you know, thank you both for venting about motherhood, but it was also very insightful for me as well, to know all that. Emily, I do have a question for you. And Jennylyn feel free to answer after this as well. But what was sort of the I would say like kind of the positive mind shift or the mantra, you came up for yourself, when you accepted your life as it is now coming from like, knowing that you did have a very independent life, you know, before being with your husband, like, what was that mindset or that mindset shift that you had to tell yourself to be like, whatever.

I'm curious. Yeah. So I don't really know that I have like a solid one, to be honest, because it's still an ongoing, something that I worked a lot on in therapy while we were in Korea, and I wasn't working as a nurse, which is a big piece of my identity is sort of the idea that, and I think this is really, really common, but I absolutely tend to sort of get my validation about who I am as a person and my worth, from extrinsic sources. So and I think this is really common, particularly in women, that we feel like we only have value based on our sort of output, like, no, it's making babies or paycheck or volunteer work, you know, how many papers you can write, or whatever that thing is, that it's really, really, really common that we base our value our self worth on that. And I'm still working through that, like, that's still an ongoing struggle for me. That being said earlier on, sort of in this process, my mantra for years and I have this like on my phone screen like on my lock screen, which I highly recommend doing fun fact tidbit, pick a picture you love and motivates you and write a positive affirmation because you look at your phone screen a million times a day, and if you have something positive right there, I found that to be hugely helpful, but so mine was for a very long time. I can overcome any obstacle that comes my way. And that was really my mindset for the first solid two years of like going into military spouse life. And then you know, in therapy, introduced the concept of radical acceptance, which is like, you can't go over comes your way, then what? Like, wow, what do I do? So learning evolving working in that space, but um, that was definitely like a big like, Okay, I have the choice to know, I can curl up in my tiny little turtle shell and be miserable. And I definitely have these that I do that I'm really big on being sort of open and transparent about mental health. If you have a mind, you have mental health, and we all struggle at times, and it's still so stigmatized. And but I think that's really important talk about that, like, there were definitely There have been days that I'm like, Nope, I'm going to curl up in a ball, my bed today, and I'm not getting up. And I can't do that with SEO, that doesn't really work very well. So when my mental health struggles sort of take a dive this summer, I went and got on medication, which has been hugely helpful for both depression and anxiety. But it just totally lost my train of thought I sidebar to totally lost my train of thought. overcoming any obstacle that comes your way. And then sort of the thought process with that is just like, you have the choice to be miserable, and get knocked over by everything that like, hits you. And you can just be miserable and being a tiny turtle ball. Or you can take a deep breath, sit with those feelings, process them, and then sort of like, okay, now we move to the next thing. One of my favorite quotes is like feel your feelings but don't let them unpack and move in. Hmm, not my quote, I don't know where it originally came from, but I love it. But yeah, it's really just been this sort of like, you have the choice. And that comes back to that autonomy to like, you are not a victim in this, like you made the decision. You made the decision in the past that you wanted to marry him when he was going in, or you made the decision that you wanted to stay with him when he went in. And you made the decision that you wanted to stay together when he left and made the decision that you wanted to go with him. And like for me continuing to sort of reaffirm that, like, No, this is not happening to you, you are actively choosing to be a participant in this like right now today, I could absolutely decide, no, I'm done with this and send them a text and be like, I want to divorce we're done. And like I'm out, and I'm not choosing that. Like there are hard days, but I'm actively choosing to continue to be present and participatory in our life and our relationship. And I think that mindset is a huge help in not feeling quite so last Tuesday. Yeah. And sizing that choice.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we're going to be very action oriented women, it is helpful to say, This is my choice I chose to be here. And even if I am not, you know, taking action today, if I have to somehow if I have to just like my body just wants to shut down and like, lay in bed for a little bit like I can accept that too. That is still a choice, you know. And so I think just like your intentionality, you know, in this whole process has been, it's it's admirable, you know, because it is really easy to also. And maybe this is just because you're a nurse as well, but the willingness to, you know, take medication for anxiety and depression. I myself when my doctor first diagnosed me and gave me meds like I deliberately didn't pick them up. I was like, No, I, like I Will not I will find out other ways to do it. But like, I know people who I mean, I'm not saying what I did was good. But I know people who have greatly benefited from, you know, taking medication and to hear it from you as a nurse, it's like it is reassuring to know that when it's like you probably could explain the science behind it. And then to it's like, it is actually a beneficial to you to be able to be taking medication.

Yeah, mental health, like that was my very first thought was, yeah, mental health and all of the good therapy and good health. I mean, you said so many things that were I was like, Oh, my therapist said that too. Oh, yeah, that's definitely counseling term up. Yeah, there's another one of those phrases, you know, and on the topic of meds, I mean, I was very much the same. And for me, also, coming from a 12 step recovery background, like there was in talking about needing more help than sitting in the rooms of recovery, or sitting with a therapist was pretty daunting, because there's sometimes is that idea that because you're with a therapist, or because you're in recovery, or because you go to church, like all of these things are going to fix that thing. And so you shouldn't and couldn't possibly need an additional help. And I had a friend that I love very much in the rooms of recovery that was like, Yeah, but sometimes you do and you're not going to get to those other places where like the 12 steps or a Bible study or a book study are going to land and help you out because like you The actual chemistry of your brain needs help. And until you level that actual chemistry out, you can do all of those other things and still feel sad, lonely, tired, depressed, empty. And for me, like this friend saying that was just such a gift, and then to have it echoed by somebody else who was like, Look, I've tried it both ways, you know, and I've gotten to the point with being on medication that, you know, thought I was so much better that I could go off and found out that that was a terrible idea that my brain is always going to need help. And so, you know, for me, it's definitely a journey of, I think, to your point of like choosing, like, I'm choosing today to help myself out with this, in hopes that at some point, I won't have to be on medication, because I will be all leveled out and the other things that I really love, like community and 12 steps, and you know, book studies are the thing that will like keep me level, okay,

I have to have to jump on this, here's my I love, I love where you're going with that. But here's my like extra little like, caveat, we as a society, as a culture are so quick to know, like, if somebody has let's use a heart attack as an example, because I'm a nurse, I'm a nerd, and I like I like cardiac stuff. Heart attacks come from narrowing or a blockage in the arteries that feed oxygenated blood to your heart because your heart is a muscle that needs oxygen to function. And when those arteries get either squeezed off or blocked off, your heart muscle doesn't get any oxygen, your heart muscle dies, that's what causes chest pain. And that's what will kill you. If it's a bad enough heart attack. We don't think twice about people who need because what you do to fix that is you go in to the artery itself, the medical procedure is to go into the artery of the heart and you put a little it's called a stent. And it's like, this looks like a Chinese finger trap, and it holds that area of the artery open that was blocked. And none of us would say, oh, like you're weak because your 12 STEP program didn't like open up your arteries for you like, Oh, you're such a loser because No, you went to therapy and like, but you still like need this no stent to keep your heart oxygenated? No, like it's such a prevalent thing that mental health and physical health are still so separated. And that's really hard and it's the same and no depression, anxiety, no schizophrenia, bipolar, like all of these different avenues. I don't know if either of you are on Tik Tok but like I think everyone in like my entire generation is like realizing right now because of tick tock that we all have undiagnosed a DD or ADHD.

And God I'm not on there then. You're funny because like, you know, I'm a millennial. And like, when Tik Tok started become a thing. That's when I realized I was becoming an older millennial. I was like, I can't even jump off this. I can't even I tried. I would download it. And I delete it. Like, literally every time I can't remember Snapchat was the start of it. I was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't do this, you know, and then tick tock like, I absolutely cannot do this. So I'm glad that you know, at least one of all the social media accounts I'm on. I'm not on that, because I could definitely see getting ADHD being on that platform.

So I had the same thought process. I was like, oh my god, I can't keep up with this. Because like, I operate this sort of like mental physical health, business space, like up with new social media as part of the deal, right? And it's all my favorite platform, like because there's so many different avenues. Like you were mentioning like oh, like because you're a nurse, you can probably explain how like medication works in your brain. I can't. I can't like you know, you learn like the basics. In know when you take pharmacology in nursing school, you memorize your flashcards, you take your test, and then whatever job you go into, you become familiar with the medications you use on a regular basis. But there's like this whole genre on tick tock of the pharmacists and psychologists that explaining exactly like individual medications, like this is how it works. And here's a cute picture and like a little graphic of how it like I've learned so much from tick tock like I'm not on the side of tick tock that's just like silly dances and like I'm not belittling that at all.

Well, that's great for performers, I think to have accounts like that, you know, like dance routines and stuff, but yeah, there's so much I still need to learn about tick tock

like education. Yes. Yeah. Cool.

Yeah, that's really awesome. Emily and I think yeah, I just feel like I just feel like I've like lost my mental capacity to like take in a new social media account, but I you know, I'm sure there's some benefits to it. And maybe in the winter season when I have nothing to do, I might entertain the idea by going Back to your analogy with, you know, the heart and the artery and adding that stent. You know, it gives me reassurance that if we have something similar to that in regards to like mental health and knowing that like, you know, just because you're getting all this social support to get quote unquote, get better, it's still as important, like medication is still just as important, you know, to help with your overall mental health because, you know, mental health is physical health, essentially, at least from what everyone everyone keeps telling me, I'm not a professional to really say that Jennylyn just that I check in with you see if you have any thoughts.

I mean, that literally was the subject of the Facebook Live I did last week was that mental health is health period, like, yeah, the end. And I think, you know, to talk about all of those pieces that for me are part of that. I mean, mental health is a tenant of overall health. Physical health is a tenant of like, community health, like having a healthy community having a healthy spiritual, or, you know, Faith practice. All of that, for me, leads into that. And I think as far as the medication conversation goes, it was what I originally saw as a great failing, of all of those other tenants actually had nothing to do with those. And I could have done those. Well, I mean, I was eating well, I did a freakin whole 30 and a paleo for like a year and went to the gym and had a personal trainer and still felt like crap. Like, for me, that with the intervention of medication, like then those other tenants fell into place much easier, and for me made my overall health better, because I could make better choices, I could, you know, I had the capacity to read the book, I had the capacity to be in community, whereas before, I mean, depression and anxiety, were literally sucking every last bit of energy I had, even from the things that I was supposed to be putting energy toward, like parenting, like grocery shopping, you know, and so I love that we today have talked about like, mental health, this health period, and there are multiple routes to that end for you know, Emily, myself, and you like, all of our journeys look a little bit different. Nonetheless, you know, here we are, being being healthy in the way that works for each of us.

Agreed, I think that's a really a really good perspective on it, that it's, like, you know, to continue the heart attack stent analogy, like you wouldn't expect to know, like, if the problem causing the blockage in the first place is, you know, not great nutrition and not enough exercise, like, okay, like, let's add in nutrition and exercise, that's great. But like, you can't exercise with a heart attack happening, like, you're not going to get the opportunity to clean up your diet if you die of a heart attack right now. So like you need that stent to protect you, to support you, literally to support you. And no medication for mental health can do the exact same thing. Like it's not, it's not something that's like to be overcome. Like some people need medication for short periods of time. Some people need it their whole lives, our brains are all wired differently, everyone works differently, postpartum since we talked about like mom life a little bit as a good mental health sidebar, like postpartum depression in particular, and postpartum anxiety and antepartum. That's another like, sort of little known thing that people can get things at depression and psychosis at any point surrounding or after pregnancy. And it is a very chemical thing. It's not like a failure of you as a person or a failure of you as a potential parent. And that almost universally, like needs to be managed with medication and it's the exact same thing as a splint for a broken leg like that is not going to last forever but it has to be taken care of it has to be addressed because it's not something that like you should have to power through on your own and like survive through when there's a fix you know? Yeah, give yourself a fighting chance with the with the sunshine and the community and the exercise and nutrition all those things are great, but also don't fight the don't fight the things that help science is cool.

Yeah, no, I think that was beautifully said and if anyone needed a refresher on mental health because they're having a tough day, hopefully this conversation be like, Okay, I don't have to fight it. Like I could get help. Oh, feelings

are cool. All about it.

Yeah, no, and I love that you brought up like postpartum and antepartum stuff. I mean, my children are 10 and almost 12. And even a decade ago when I had them like that really wasn't all that discussed. And I can look back now, what I thought were failings on my part, as a military spouse back to that identity piece, because I was having a hard time because my first child I had and three months Later, on my first wedding anniversary, my husband went to OCS. And I was still working full time. My second child was born a month into a seven month long deployment. I continue to think that what I was feeling was circumstantial was oh, because he's gone. Oh, because you're a single parent. And now I'm like, No, that was straight up, like postpartum depression, like the nobody ever talked about, like, sure those circumstantial things were adding to it. But they were not the cause. I mean, I've had 1000s of hormones, like, you know, searching through my body, and I had boys and so they were like, lots of random ones that I don't normally. And so I just can't speak highly enough to like, seeking out the help in that time, even when it feels hard, because you're like, I have this tiny human and what am I supposed to do into that? I would say, Hey, COVID, like the one great thing you did is prove that telehealth is great. And like it is a worthy endeavor. And you can get stellar therapy like via phone or you know, your computer screen, like, never have to leave your tiny human like you can stay with your tiny human and still great health for yourself,

man, we should really, we should really get some mental health sponsor on the show to anyone. But anyway, we should. Yeah.

I mean, we really should, hey, how about that telehealth pitch? I'm like, I literally was hearing my CC mo be like,

oh, yeah, show Absolutely. Awesome. Well, as you all know, we love talking about mental health on the show. And so Emily, I want to just thank you, again, for sharing a snapshot of your life and getting into all the topics of what it's like to be a mother and your quote unquote, military spouse, meaning, you know, you've been in it for just a couple years, and just mental health in general, I know that one of the challenges that you have faced as a military spouse is bullying. And I think often when we hear about bullying in the military community, it's often addressed toward kids, but you wanted to talk about specifically bullying as a spouse. And so tell us a little bit about that, and what that experience has been like for you to experience bullying.

Oh, my gosh, so, so many examples and instances. And I've definitely sort of had the experience that this is another one of those things that just isn't talked about. And it's just sort of expected that, you know, go with the flow and pay your dues and know when you're more senior than you can speak. And from my very first sort of early interactions when I was No, because I wasn't stoked about it. I wasn't excited. I wasn't No, I was sort of like, I'm hearing I'm choosing this, but this is not what I would pick on my own. And no one looking to connect with other people who are also having a hard time. And one of my earliest interactions that I remember sort of feeling like being bullied about it is I had somebody who was a very sort of typical older military spouse who no has been in for 18 years and is in charge of all things. And she told me that I should be ashamed of myself that my husband should be ashamed of me for daring to no not support him and no, like, like, just the like, like, how dare you have the audacity to have your own feelings that don't toe the company line? Like it was? Like a ridiculous to me is absolutely ridiculous. And as sort of a an quote unquote, adults who already had a previously established identity, I immediately was like, um,

but that is for everyone. Like, that's an I witnessed and early on, that sort of became my like, this is my like, saying that I'm going to go on this crusade of like normalizing not being stoked about being a military spouse, like normalize the fact that like, I don't love this, and it's not a great time, and it's not all sunshine, and roses, and I encountered quite a bit of this. And it it very much tended to be like I would intervene often when I saw it happening in online forums, from like, more seasoned spouses sort of attacking younger ones. There's also an abundance of like lateral quote, unquote, bullying in an enemy in the internet and social media are such phenomenal resources. And we've like really sort of begun to maximize them, I think in the last couple of years for where we're at, like as a culture right now. But there's so many challenges that come with that. And the keyboard warrior thing is a very real phenomenon that people do insane things behind a computer screen that they will never do in person and it's heart wrenching for Little while I was helping to run a support group for like one of the basic training location is and no, it was a lot of a lot of brand new spouses or no significant others, people who were coming in and didn't know anything and like, where do I go for graduation? And how do I write letters? And what can I send, that's not going to get them in trouble, like, teaching about upset like things like that, that I had no clue about any of it. When I started, I was like, Okay, I learned, let me pass this forward. And even in my involvement in that group, I am not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm very well aware of that. I don't expect to be everybody's cup of tea, that's okay. But there were a few people who were really not into me as a human being and made that known loud and clear, via like, anonymous comment features. And it was exhausting. And it it, it got to a point and it was while my husband was in at like secondary schooling after basic and I was living completely by myself, for the first time. totally depressed, no navigating military spouse while waiting for orders for first use station and they just weren't coming. It was also the winter like, it was just like this, like perfect storm of all these miserable things away from my support system. This like bullying in this space, like really started to ramp up that it didn't matter what I did what I said, like me, trying to support other people who were struggling with things me trying to be encouraging, I was just like, getting, like, trashed, and honestly, almost as bad my like cohort the other like group admins who were no in this group, like intended to support each other, kind of let it stand. And they, they're like, we're gonna keep approving these posts, we're gonna keep, like, letting these like go on the page. Now, we're just gonna let people find it out in the comments. And, and, you know, like, I did it for a while. And then I was just like, This is making me sick. Like, I'm so anxious, and so sad. And I finally was just like, you know, what, like, you guys can no make this decision. Like, no, I've continued to show up and do my best here. But at this point, like, like, it's hurting me more than it's feeling good to be part of this. So like, know, the choices at this point are you can choose to support me and stop allowing posts that are clearly just trolling to trash me. Or I'm going to remove myself from this community. Like that's like, I am not going to continue to set myself on fire here. And they chose to, they're like, we're not going to censor people. And I was like, okay, like, and that was a bummer. Like, that was? No, that was my support system at that point in time. And it was a really, like, really toxic environment in a lot of ways. And it Yeah, it was really unfortunate like, and I had gotten so much good from that community and felt so good about being able to support other people and help other people navigate. But yeah, that sort of bullying has been a big thing throughout every stage of the process. For me, while I was in Korea, there is a few sort of different styles of bullying that I encountered. One of them, I think, is a really kind of classic one that we've sort of alluded to a little bit earlier, that it's interesting when you're sort of in this middle space of like you're too junior to hang out with people your age, but you're too old to hang out with people the same ranks. And it's this concept of, and I hate that the military does this. But there's very much this concept of like, you can't socialize with people who are above your rank. And I had a spouse literally say to me, like one of her first questions to me, it was like, oh, what's the rank is your husband? And like, was 100% like basing her decision on whether or not she wanted to spend time with me on that? And then when she found out that he was an e4, he was like, Oh, well, like we could hang out but like, your husband could never like be involved in like, my, like, the stupidest like, he didn't work in the same like, they would never have encountered each other at work and like, whatever policies or policies, you got to follow them, but I just think it's ridiculous. So definitely some stuff like that. And then again, more like no people really sort of using each other for entertainment ganging up on each other because they don't have anything else to do overseas duty stations in somewhere, at least in my experience, anyway, incredibly supportive in some ways, because it's like, You're what you have, like, like, That's it, like you've got this group of people and everyone around you can tailor so it's not like you can go to the next town over and go to, you know, a coffee group and meet up with people, unless you're doing it to learn Korean. Like it's just a like an island type. situation. But that also means that it's a limited pool of people. So as soon as it gets nasty, you're pretty limited. Yeah, so I've experienced a lot of bullying and a lot of stages. And it's a really hard thing. Anybody struggling with that? You are absolutely. And I definitely recommend having some really clear, healthy boundaries for yourself, in order to protect your mental health is, I've definitely been guilty of tolerating it for entirely too long, under the sort of premise that like, oh, like, this is what the community is. And like, everyone tells me that, like, this community is so helpful to them. So like, I'm just like doing something wrong here. And that's not necessarily true.

I mean, the key word you said is healthy boundaries, right? It's like, you can only invest so much time in a group before you're like, Okay, this was like costing me like, emotionally, mentally, even physically, it definitely reminds me of the last group of friends that I made within a seven month period where it got to a point where I thought, you know, before I start hating these people, I think I'm just gonna remove myself from the situation, because it's just not a good fit. I just decided leave it at that. It's like, I could sit here all day and, and say how much we don't get along, or I could just let go and hope that I find community elsewhere. And, you know, it also got me to think about what I experienced as a military kid, or when we transitioned out and having experienced bullying in post military life, by my own friends who also were military kids post military life. And I remember picking up this phrase early on that goes, I would rather be alone than with bad company. And so I've learned throughout the years to kind of be like, friend, my own ally. I mean, I've learned to, obviously open up to people and surround myself with people like healthy relationships. But you know, sometimes it's a lonely path, when, you know, you have no choice but to kind of be your own friend in those situations. So I appreciate you bringing light to that because I don't you know, I don't I don't think genuine we've talked about bullying a bunch amongst other spouses. So I don't know, any thoughts?

I don't think we've addressed that either. We've talked some about Yeah, not so great experiences people have had and every time I hear one of those stories, it just breaks my heart because I am fort like, continue to realize how fortunate I am to have had the experience I had because that is not part of my story. I have had nothing but incredible support from people that were way farther in this journey than myself and people who were brand new and you know, looking to be friends. Like, my military spouse, sisterhood is always been fair. And I should I guess I shouldn't say sisterhood, I have some male spouse friends to Sorry, guys. My military significant other, like, you know, group has always been nothing but supportive. And every time I hear those stories, I just think, really, we're still there. Like, it's 2021. Like, we're still doing this, like, we as military spouses represent point, two 5% of the American population. And I say that slowly and loudly because like, when we're beating up on our own, like, where do we think they're going to go? Is especially in like a real military town. I mean, you know, I will say that one of my military spouse, mentors and friends, like one of her biggest things involves identity and the fact that like, one you can't solely identify as a military spouse, you need groups of friends, you know, for me, it came through like, mobs, mothers of preschoolers, and you know, 12 Step group and church, you know, and she is a huge advocate of that is like, No, and I probably learned that really easily because our first duty station away from my hometown was one in which we were one of one Navy families, one. So everybody was a civilian, so I didn't have any choice, but to be friends with people who weren't military spouses. But, you know, when I think about, like, people that have only ever lived in like those really, really large base areas where like, every single person is involved in like, you know, the military community, like, why are we beating up on the very people that we used to be or would want to become and stay around? Like, I mean, I didn't know all those things when I joined either like, and I mean, again, I was kind of old for military life, like and I grew up in a military area and still had no idea like, it was always that thing over there. Like I always felt, you know, like, Oh, that's cool, like the Navy's there, like we're safe but never involved in it until I'm married into it. You know, so I'm so sad to hear that, that has been your experience. And I just hope that there are those of us out there that are listening or like, you know, Jen and I, who both been at this a long time, like, please know that that isn't everyone, you know, and we are here to, you know, provide what's it? What's our show motto? We provide good resources. We're always,

I always forget this hold up where I got

it because we're holding down the fort. I don't know.

Well, what we're about to show is, you know, we're all about sustaining a fulfilling and purposeful military life through conversation and community building. It's like, the more division I hear, especially, you know, during the pandemic, the more I fight for common ground, the more I fight for having conversations like this, because it is out there, you know, like, it's rough, and a lot of it is projection, you know, like, hurt people hurt people. And thank goodness for mental health, because I think that, you know, there's also another corny saying that says heal people, right, but it's so true, as corny as it sounds. And so, you know, so Emily, I just thank you, you know, again, for your transparency, and also juggling, Theodore, while you're doing this interview, by the way, because I know you can get all over the place here.

I think it's so important to I know, when I talk to people about my experience, it's often a response that I get honestly, is like, oh, my gosh, how have all of these terrible things happened to you? Because our entire experience has just been bad from day one, like all of these flukes that never should have happened, like continued to happen to us. And so it's very much like, no, like, Oh, my husband's supposed to be coming home in March. But I have no hope or plan of that actually happening. Like I've just completely, like, go out that expectation, which I think is sort of a healthy, like, roll with the punches, especially for recovering type A personality, like that's a good practice. But yeah, really important to remember that, again, we've kind of been talking about choices. And you you said something, I don't remember exactly what you said, but it's a really good like, you chose to separate yourself from the people before it got bad. And that's just so important that you are no, you're the some of the people that you spend the most time with, whether it be in person or online. And that's a choice that you can make. So like if the people that circumstance puts you with are not the kind of people that you look up to and aspire to be like, then they're probably not the people they should be hanging out with. And there's so many opportunities for community, there's so many avenues to look for people that you can like, look up to and aspire to know, be like and make you want to be the best version of yourself. I think that's really important to make decisions about who you want to spend your time with.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, considering how transient the military life is, as hard as it can be, sometimes sometimes there are benefits to it. It's like, oh, I can't start over. It's like, oh, I didn't really like this environment, at least I can possibly start over with new standards in the next environment, the next location. And so, yeah, well, wow, what a conversation.

Thank you for being willing to grow with my windy thought process.

Oh, no, it's my jam. If you have a husband like mine who spits 1000 ideas at you every day, you learn to make sense of it all.

And to go home to send some via text at like midnight. Yeah, that's great.

But you know, I welcome winding thoughts and ideas because like, I enjoy organizing them. So you know, it's I think we all complement each other, I've come to believe, by Emily, I think this is a great way to wrap up our conversation. It sounds like the theme of today is really choice, you know, choice in your mental health choice in your associations, choice and your overall well being.

That's beautiful. And again, like I was really sort of having imposter syndrome and not really sure going into this, like, what I could kind of bring to the table to share with people. But I think that's a really beautiful message that you're right did kind of come up being the conversation that we don't get a lot of choice in a lot of things as military spouses, so maximizing the choices that you can make on the little things, and really leaning into them has been hugely helpful to me. And so I guess that would be that would be my closing.

Yeah. And look at you like talking with us for almost an hour and a half, like you did have a lot to say, despite how you felt about your imposter syndrome. So thank you for working through that anyway. You know, like just kind of like how you're saying earlier that you know, the way you're processing this whole life is continuously ongoing. And honestly, I think that's just life in general. Like we're always trying to process what we're meant to do in this life. So, Emily, thank you so much, Jenny. Lynn, any closing thoughts from you before we go? All right. And so to our listeners if you want to get a hold of Emily, right You can find her on Instagram which is scrubs period squads period SAS we really enjoyed having Emily on our show today and we hope that you got a lot from our conversation so with that said thank you all so much for joining us and we'll chat with you in the next episode tune in next

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