The dialogue with Phil Johnstone is an enlightening examination of the critical role of communications in the realm of global humanitarian assistance, particularly during crises. Phil shares his extensive experiences, having navigated the challenging landscapes of crisis response in various countries, including Nepal after the 2015 earthquake and more recently in Ukraine and Sudan.

Phil has recently launched his own podcast through Plant & Food Research, called Collab. Phil has recently launched his own podcast through Plant & Food Research, called Collab, which looks at global issues and trends in international development and humanitarian crisis response.

Phil's dual expertise as both a seasoned communicator and a former journalist enriches the conversation with Heather and Natalie of HMC, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of the complexities inherent in crisis communications. Phil articulates the necessity for clarity and authenticity in messaging, especially when addressing sensitive issues that affect vulnerable populations.

Throughout the episode, he highlights the importance of storytelling as an essential tool for engaging audiences and fostering empathy. By recounting vivid experiences from the field, Phil paints a picture of the stark realities faced by those impacted by disasters and conflicts, while also celebrating the resilience and determination of local communities. His narrative underscores the collaborative efforts of various humanitarian organizations, showcasing how effective communication can bridge gaps between aid providers and those in need. Moreover, Phil discusses the emotional challenges faced by communicators in such high-stakes environments, emphasizing the importance of maintaining professionalism and composure while dealing with distressing scenarios.

As the conversation concludes, Phil imparts valuable insights into the evolving landscape of communications in crisis situations, encouraging public relations professionals to adopt innovative strategies that resonate with audiences on a deeper level. He advocates for a focus on authenticity and the human element in storytelling, urging communicators to recognize the profound responsibility they bear in shaping narratives that can inspire action and support for humanitarian causes. Phil's reflections serve as both a source of inspiration and a call to action for those in the communications field to use their skills to effect meaningful change in the world.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• HMC
• Plant and Food Research
• BBC
• Merck & Co.
• World Vision New Zealand
• World Vision International
• International Federation of Red Cross
• Leprosy Mission NZ
• World Food Organization

You're listening to Crunch, a podcast by award winning public relations agency hmc.

Crunch stands for Crucial Chats Over Lunch.

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On behalf of the HMC team, it's our privilege to welcome you into Crunch.

Welcome back to Crunch.

Something a little bit different and inspiring I hope.

Today we are joined by Phil Johnstone and joining me from HMC is one of our senior account managers, Natalie Swart.

And as a bit of introduction of our guest Phil.

He is the Strategy and Growth manager, International Development at Plant and Food Research.

But today we're specifically going to talk to him about his other role in life that he continues alongside his day job and that is his volunteer and contract work creating content for development organizations in disaster prone and war torn countries such as Malawi, Cambodia, India, Bangladesh, Nepal and even the Ukraine and Sudan.

He spent eight years at the BBC in London in roles including head of press and PR for BBC Worldwide TV.

He's also worked in senior PR roles at Merck & Co.

Auckland Museum in World Vision New Zealand, which we'll be talking a little bit about World Vision today and the way that Phil and I met.

We just had dinner, sat next to each other and I enjoyed our conversation, Phil, and that's I guess why we're here today.

So yeah, we're really looking forward to I guess hearing how you're using your comm skills to do a little bit of good in the world.

So thank you Ken.

Phil, can you just tell us a little bit about what you're doing with this crisis response work?

Like where are you going?

What are you doing?

Who are you working for?

Just a little bit of background.

Sure.

I've been working with a range of organizations I guess over the last 15 years.

The role has always been to really communic what that organization's doing.

I mean crisis responses are really complex and costly.

Have all sorts of experts are involved from logistics, security, programming and it's always a really complex environment.

And whether that's a war situation or a natural disaster.

So that's the context and quite a challenging context for a communicator.

It's about helping people understand what's happening, what the challenges are, then also being there to help defend that organisation if there are things that need to be corrected or reputation needs to be managed.

And so in my day job as well, I do some development travel, working up in Vietnam and in India and Cambodia as well, collecting content and telling stories.

It was at your role at World Vision that sort of springboarded you into this sort of work?

Sure, I can remember my first job at the Dominion thinking, you know, I love journalism, but if I did anything else, I'd like to work for an aid organization.

It was just one of those youthful ideas that you had.

And getting the invite to come and join World Vision and staff up a team of communication experts and advocacy people was a really interesting opportunity.

And got to go to Malawi and yeah, some other places and just see for the first time small things like the difference a cow can make for a family.

I remember seeing a program that was giving dairy cows to smallholder farmers in Malawi and as we left insisted on giving us most of that day's milk.

And we were trying and say, no, that's okay, but they were really pleased to have us there and so generous.

And my wife came over as well, and our daughter.

And that gave me the time to think about my career and decide I wanted to be in New Zealand doing really good work that I enjoyed.

But I also wanted to train up and do crisis communications work.

So did some courses and then looked for opportunities.

So where was the very first place you went as a crisis response would.

So it was about six weeks after the quake, just immediately after sort of a major aftershock.

Arriving at Kathmandu airport was a bit like a war movie set, seeing huge transport and military planes and whole areas around the airport of supplies and equipment and choppers taking off and just thought, okay, this is really, really interesting.

I'd been there a year before and had trekked up to Everest base camp and with a buddy and the Difference though, to be there a year later and to see really no tourists, obviously in Kathmandu and to start traveling and going out regularly every few days for four or five days at a time, helping that health charity communicate to its global supporters what was happening.

So what specifically were you doing?

Are you recording videos?

What are you doing?

Yeah, a bit of everything.

We would be going out for four or five days.

We were delivering things like roofing.

Iron houses have been destroyed, little homes being destroyed, or cash.

So there was a.

The treasurer had a huge bag and all of us around him and we would drive for six hours overnight, drive on to a really remote place where they had 10 person support groups.

So there might be two or three people who had had lepros.

There'd be a couple of female headed household representatives.

There'd be some really poor people and some disabled people.

So they were in a group that had been given some microfinance and training.

They were saving a little bit and getting their resources going to start little businesses and get training and sewing and other things that would give them income.

So those teams and support groups were all over and the charity was going to them, registering people, giving them cash.

And it was amazing to stand behind the person giving the cash and take photos and video to see someone come and knowing what that meant, that that meant that there's food for the next few months, there's.

Maybe I can buy some more roofing because the monsoon's coming in a few weeks and we can actually make this a bit more watertight.

So, yeah, fascinating.

So you were is aid working with a comms hat on sort of thing.

And were you working with people that had all different sorts of skills?

Yeah, so working with social workers, with logistics people, the leader of that charity, and health experts and others.

So, yeah, I was really recording a bit like a journalist, you know, but I was collecting content, videos, creating videos myself, talking or other people talking with a translator, collecting people's stories.

And quite simply, I was each week sending a little bunch of photos and stories to all the different national offices around the world, in Europe, New Zealand, Australia, other places that raised money.

And we were sending money for an appeal for the leprosy charity.

And so people could go, ah, that's what I'm giving money for.

Or I've been thinking about giving money.

Wow, look at that.

There's a really authentic story.

I can see there's a difference being made.

I want to be part of it.

I imagine it's quite a coveted role.

I know a few people that would love a Job like this.

Is this very much from your involvement in aid work more generally that you've sort of fallen into this particular type of comms work?

Yeah, for me that was a volunteer situation.

So I had done a five day hostile environment awareness training course in Australia.

So that equips, that's.

You have to do that if you want to go into more dangerous places.

And that's a really immersive, tough experience.

But you'd get a lot of learnings.

And then I did another four day course on international development and humanitarian work and managed to get onto a roster, a UN approved roster of communicators and others who are ready for to go.

But in this case, I approached a charity and said, listen, I'm going.

And I had been working as a consultant and a contract was finishing, so I was just well equipped to go.

Right, I'm off and arrived, linked up with the charities.

Yeah, we would love to have you.

Let's go.

So, yeah, I mean, I covered my accommodation and other costs, but I was there getting the experience I needed for the next thing.

Maybe you talk about like.

Oh, yeah, I was recording video and then I just sent it around in the world.

But I imagine just getting electricity to plug in your phone was maybe challenging at times, or maybe it wasn't, I don't know.

Yeah, sure, you know, you go with power packs and you get gear and you can just do what you can do.

Sometimes it's hard, but then you just have to wait a day or two till you're somewhere else on that mission.

I would come back to Kathmandu for a couple of days.

I'd work hard for a day processing all my content and I was literally sending it to one person in the UK who was then distributing that to all their comms and PR colleagues around the world.

So it was a very clean process.

And I'm assuming you were branded up in whatever organization you were representing at the time?

Yeah.

Did the public distinguish between you and a journalist or neither here nor there?

I think so, yeah.

I mean I was.

If we're arriving in a couple of vehicles, I'm there.

There's often a meeting, people will come and I might be introduced.

We were getting obviously consent, verbal and were appropriate written consents for people to be mentioned.

It's wonderful to have, you know, a local contact clearly who is looking around and saying, they're coming back to me saying, here's a.

Here's a woman and their kid and this is what happened.

I go, oh, that sounds fantastic.

Let's, let's Tell that story.

So yeah, you get good at choosing and working.

About six months later I went back to Nepal with, yeah, the International Federation of Red Cross and they had a job.

Normally they would pay someone to do it, but they were happy to have me as a volunteer to come because I wanted to get that experience that was to create a 36 page book one year on.

So one year on from that disaster.

Generally, whenever there's some massive global natural disaster they've worked on, they create this report.

I spent four weeks interviewing, creating the content and working with the designer to create what had happened, what they'd done and then all the monitoring and evaluation reports.

And at the end of that was able to spend a couple of weeks, once that was being printed, going up into isolated places with a volunteer photographer and meeting people.

I'll talk a bit about that a bit later on maybe.

Well, the first time I met you I was surprised to hear that you had been in the Ukraine at this sort of towards the start of the war.

Tell us a little bit about that and I guess the challenges of just simply being there, but also the challenges of gathering the content that you were gathering.

Yeah.

Three months after the war started, World Vision International launched a response.

It was based out of Romania.

They weren't working in Ukraine at the time, but they quickly had set people up in place and they'd had a someone on loan from World Vision UK doing heading up communications.

But they needed a break and there was a gap before someone else, a permanent person would come in.

So they used me for a month to really head up that communications effort and partly in Romania.

But then I went with the response director up across the border to a Ukrainian city called Chernovitsi and then sort of a day long drive into Kyiv.

So it was surreal really.

I remember as went across the border thinking, I've never been in a country at war before, let alone one with a bully armed with nuclear weapons, you know.

But on the surface it often felt very normal, very everyday.

But then you'd notice some barricades in Kyiv town square, there's a bunch of tanks, burnt out tanks and people were looking and climbing on them.

You'd be going through checkpoints, street art, there'd be some bomb buildings.

We went to bomb Bucha where those atrocities happened.

I remember a young translator saying to me, we finished some work.

And she just said, I just still can't believe this is happening to my country.

You know, just a few hundred miles away, people are dying.

So it was, yeah, that's surreal.

But it was very tiring at times the week in Kyiv, we had at least four 3am bomb alerts go off.

So, you know, you go to bed with your grab kit and things charging and then that eerie siren goes off.

You look at your app and incoming potentially.

So you're putting your shoes on, you know, you've got about 15 minutes if there is something coming.

Nothing came, but yeah, downstairs into a basement area.

I tell my family it was a bunker, but it was really just a basement that had been kitted out.

And the first time we sat there for two hours sort of nervously talking.

Then you come back into the street.

It's becoming light at half five and it's a bit hard to go back to sleep.

But the first time it's strange, the second time you just get a bit more used to it.

I remember the security person said he was ex army and he said, look, it's much safer here.

If we had an indirect hit, you'd be projected.

If we had a direct hit, well, the building would come down on top of us and we would climb out and move to the cars, right?

And I don't know, I don't know about that.

You, you're alive and look, I was just there for a very short time.

I was a long way from the fighting, so I don't want to overplay that brave guy thing because there are a whole lot more people and people have.

Communicators have lost their lives in fast, worst situations.

It was inspiring though, you know, it was.

We would go out each day, drive for two hours to see programs that World Vision supporters with funding, food distribution efforts, people packing and then being driven to the front by very brave, ordinary people.

A series of summer camps for kids who'd been relocated from the East.

And Dad's not there, Dad's fighting, Mum's there.

So they would come from, I think like 9:30 till 4 each day for two weeks.

Psychologists on hand as well, but just place where kids could be kids, they could learn, have fun, play games.

Really wonderful to see that.

And interview some of the kids as well for little videos.

I imagine you're oscillating between all the emotions in a zone like that.

How do you deal with some of those really confronting scenes?

And how do you still keep doing your job, keeping those emotions in check and decompress on the other side.

It's interesting because when you're collecting content, the worst something is that someone tells you you're empathetic.

It's shocking, but equally part of your brain is going Right.

That is very real.

That's dramatic, that's authentic, that's compelling.

I want to make sure.

Am I holding the camera correctly?

Is the mic really working?

What's my next question?

So I think you manage it in that moment by doing the technical things well and have your editorial brain working.

And I think it's only when you take a pause or later, it really kind of hits you the enormity of either the terrible things you've heard, the personal stories of survival or threat that people have overcome.

It does hit you at the time, though.

But if you're an emotional wreck, you're weeping and upset, you're not actually able to do your job.

No, but I imagine the visuals, too.

Yeah.

It must be so confronting.

And even when you're going back over footage that you may have inadvertently collected, I imagine there's a lot of wo.

Who were describing what it was like coming towards the border and finally making it.

They'd been traveling for weeks, and there were a series of roadblocks put in every kilometer or so by bandits, really bad people.

And so they were, you know, 10 miles maybe away from the border, and there's a roadblock, and people are saying, we got guns.

So what have you got?

Got some money.

Give us that.

Got some other possessions.

Give us that.

There are stories of people getting hit, someone got killed.

So then they get through that one, they go another mile or two, and then there's another roadblock.

So a series of roadblocks by bad players.

And so imagine that vulnerability you would feel.

So hearing that story was really upsetting, and it stays with you a bit.

But, yeah, when I come, when I'm home, it does take a little while, a week or two, before you get back into the flow.

It does.

You know, New Zealand is so clean, so relatively safe.

And of course, we've got issues and challenges.

Of course we do.

But it's far more in your face in a war zone or, you know, after a humanitarian natural disaster.

So I go to a particular cafe and chill out a bit and talk with friends.

I used to tell my kids, who were teenagers at the time, enjoy your life in New Zealand.

We shouldn't feel guilty about living here, but don't for a minute think that most of the world enjoys life like we have it.

You know, most of the world, people on this planet are not living life like this.

So just be aware of that, you know, and that you can think about what you can do to contribute, to.

Help and how do you slot back into your day job?

Like I'm sure that you're fundamentally shifting your perspective.

Yeah.

And it must flavor everything else you do.

Oh, look, tasks mount up, don't they?

But I've always deliberately been careful not to get to a point where I'm thinking this doesn't matter or this is so petty or whatever.

A first world problem.

I, I've always tried to guard against just jumping to that cynicism.

Yeah.

It may be true.

And you do see things through different eyes.

Definitely.

But I, yeah, just try to go look, it's just different.

But it's lovely and really interesting to get a call from someone, say World Vision International, my contact there and says, could you go here and talk to my boss?

And yes, you can go, of course.

And you know, a week later off you go and you just leave your world behind, your work world.

You know, I can call my wife every day and text and chat if I can, as I can.

But I can focus on a new thing and make that as big and be as productive as I can.

That's a really nice challenge to step off your normal life and do something different and contribute something and that's also very interesting as well and align to.

The skill, you know, your career.

That's something that a lot of people want to do.

These, you know, these purpose filled missions and they find very ways to do that.

But you're able to do it using your skill set, which is awesome.

So I guess out of all this crisis response and development work you've done.

I know.

Is there a certain situation or story that stands out as being a real highlight for you over the years or impactful or inspiring?

I think going to South Sudan again near the border, watching a food distribution day.

And just to understand that these organisations, like this case, World Vision and the World Food Organization and others work really well together on the ground to see that partnership.

Two trucks turn up from the World Food Organization.

Stuff's unpacked, rice, food supplements for infants, oil, etc.

And then in groups of 10 or 12, they're brought through, they get what they need, they're packing stuff and then off they go.

And to see them walking away, smiling back to a transit camp where they'll be for a few more weeks before being relocated to somewhere more permanent, that was a really nice Thing to film and to capture.

And I remember I did a little piece to camera.

Rob was just walking and saying today was a good day, just describing it in 40 seconds.

And that was a really nice thing to see.

And that professionalism on display, the concern for people, the calmness, but knowing that funding had created a really good result for people.

So are there any overarching communications lessons or tips or things that you think that you've learned, acquired, or just sort of honed your understanding of that are applicable to the industry more generally?

Yeah, people back here in New Zealand.

What can we learn from you, Phil?

Yeah, this word authenticity often gets the flavor of the month, isn't it?

But it is so important for things to have the ring of truth.

I think here in New Zealand, not to sort of push every claim.

I think it's really important to acknowledge challenges, that there are options, there's decisions to be taken, there's, you know, things to weigh up.

And we should give the public credit for understanding that things are complex.

So obviously in my work overseas, it's an authentic situation, but trying to maintain that in the telling of it is really important.

So I think all of us as communicators, brand reputation, people can think about that, looking for that fresh approach, you know, taking some measured risks, I think just guarding against doing things the same way.

There's a place for doing the core skills, of course, but I've always found as a bit of an outsider in that space, to question why we're doing that.

Perhaps not necessarily always doing things with a media release, let's send this out.

But maybe this piece of video or perhaps whatever, linking up to a journalist and getting them hooked straight away for them to do the story is sometimes better than spending hours and days crafting release, getting it signed off and sending it out, you know, but the principle there is always look for a fresh approach and try some new things.

And finally, I would say people relate to people.

It's a tourism, isn't it?

But unlocking those stories and perspectives and the people angle and the impact, whether for your product, for your service and being of, you know, making things interesting and showing the real person.

And I'd say they're some of the principles to bring into our work here.

I'm guessing every year there was something new to make your job easier, I guess, or just another medium or another.

Yeah, well, it's Amazing, isn't it?

The iPhone has replaced in many situations the big bulky camera.

It has its limitations.

I've been in some hot climates and I kid you not, go to a little supermarket, buy a child's insulated lunchbox, get some ice packs and overnight getting the little cheap hotel if they can to put it in the fridge and going out into hot places and the iPhone can get overheated and really, you know, as you can pack it in that little package for 10 minutes, cool it down, carry on.

That sounds really unprofessional in one sense, but practical and realistic.

So yeah, having a good small camera but also using that iPhone, the image steadying and you can do amazing videos and create content.

You know, I would generally be creating these clips, either B roll clips or pieces to camera and then dropboxing them or sending them another way to others who can then take it and slice and dice them, make them into different things, social media, websites, etc.

So yeah, we can find ways of limiting all that extra stuff you need to do.

I could do things straight to social media posts, but it's better to send it to someone who is managing all those platforms and they know where to deploy things.

Often doing little media interviews in country as well, or when you come back to New Zealand is another way of telling the story.

After Sudan, I found myself on breakfast television, TVNZ and Radio New Zealand and the Herald's podcast daily thing and just talking about what was there.

And so that's another way of guess that's legacy media, isn't it?

But still very a good way of getting a story across to people.

So would you be lugging like little mics around the country?

Would you be lugging like a gimbal or, or whatnot?

What's a gear?

Yeah, yeah, a little gimbal.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's sitting on my iPhone, little mics and I've got a small Sony camera as well.

That's it's often too.

If you have a big camera camera that's quite intimidating for people if you want them to relax a bit and so they've never seen you before, they're not going to see you again.

You're there with the translator, you're chatting, they're telling their story.

The more you could make the experience less obtrusive for them, the better.

Right, so Phil, what is next?

Where are you going next?

Two things physically.

I'm going to Papua New guinea actually Friday week, so I work at the international Development unit at Plant and Food Research and we have a A big MFAT funded project in five Pacific countries.

It's all about providing a climate change resilience or the resilience of the food system in Papua New guinea and another country.

So I'm accompanying some scientists and program managers will be in the Eastern Highlands doing community engagements and also Bougainville.

So yeah, I'll be taking cameras and gear and making a podcast episode and really unlocking what's happening there, which is reflects really well on New Zealand, New Zealand government and New Zealand's concern, but strong partnerships on the ground.

So.

So that's sort of the physical challenge.

And it's no holiday.

I've always wanted to go to Papua New guinea, but it'll be.

There'll be tiring moments for sure.

The other thing I'm up to is launching my own little work podcast that comes out later next week too, mid mid March.

So that'll that really looks at at issues and trends in international development and crisis response.

So there'll be a few episodes there.

And yeah, most of the people outside New Zealand being interviewed, there's someone at the UN talking about how to get a really good UN job in communications.

And I've just interviewed the boss of a media platform called Devex that has about a million subscribers and people who get their news about international development and other issues like that from them.

So he's talking about the turbulent TYP international development and trends for the year ahead.

So yeah, good challenge.

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Phil.

This has been incredibly illuminating and insanely inspiring.

I think you're going to have a lot of PR practitioners now wondering, reaching.

Out, how do we get a job at that?

Well, I'm very happy to talk again.

I feel like I'm just a part timer and I know there are amazing communications PR people doing this work full time, you know, all around the world.

And you know, they are the ones who are really, really doing it.

But I've been fortunate to be able to step off my normal life and do things from time to time.

And I'd like to keep doing it as long as they'll have me.

So before we leave, we always end our Crunch podcast with a lunch question, because Crunch stands for crucial chats over lunch.

So how about the most memorable lunch experience you ever had in one of these disaster where you were working?

Now, I thought about this.

Here's the place.

It's high on the Nepali hill near the epicenter of that quake.

And I had been there interviewing some members of the local community who had worked for the past year to build and replace a new a medical center, a simple four roomed building where people could come to give birth and get medical help.

So that was really important to their community.

And we had sat there, I mean sitting behind with a wall behind me and looking out on this magnificent vista, talking to these people with the translator.

And then after that we shared a meal.

So I can't remember what we ate, but it was more the company and being able to chat and see their sense of pride and knowing the hard work that they had all contributed to this work that the Red Cross had supported and helped make possible.

So that was a pretty cool lunch.

Well, that's a great way to end our conversation today.

So thanks again, Phil for joining us to our listeners out there.

We will see you next time.

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