Shownotes
Victoria Stilwell on reactive dogs, force-free training and the Reactivity Zones Approach
In this episode of The Yappy Hour powered by Yappily, Nathan Dunleavy is joined by world-renowned dog trainer, author, educator and TV presenter Victoria Stilwell.
Known for It’s Me or the Dog, The Dog Academy, the Victoria Stilwell Academy and Positively, Victoria has helped shape modern dog training across the world. In this conversation, she shares her compassionate and practical thoughts on one of the most emotionally charged topics for dog guardians: living with a reactive dog.
Together, Nathan and Victoria explore what dog guardians often misunderstand about reactivity, why so many people feel shame and isolation when their dog struggles in public, and how Victoria’s Reactivity Zones Approach offers a force-free, real life framework built around safety, trust, choice and predictability.
They also discuss the difference between the comfort zone, tolerance zone and discomfort zone, how to recognise subtle signs of stress before barking and lunging happen, and why progress with reactive dogs is rarely linear.
This episode is packed with hopeful, humane guidance for anyone supporting a reactive dog or working in force-free dog training and behaviour.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- What reactivity really is and what dog guardians often get wrong
- Why reactive behaviour is not the same as disobedience
- What the Reactivity Zones Approach is and how it works
- The difference between comfort, tolerance and discomfort zones
- Why choice and agency matter for dogs’ emotional wellbeing
- How to use practical tools like emergency U-turns and body blocking
- Why management is not failure
- What resilience looks like beyond obedience
- How to stay compassionate with yourself while supporting a reactive dog
About Victoria Stilwell
Victoria Stilwell is an internationally respected dog trainer, author, educator and television presenter best known for It’s Me or the Dog. She is the founder of the Victoria Stilwell Academy and Positively, and is widely known for championing force-free, humane dog training methods.
Resources mentioned:
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Need help with a reactive dog?
If you're struggling with reactivity, fear or behaviour challenges, you can find ethical, qualified dog trainers and behaviourists through the Yappily directory:
https://yappily.co.uk/find-a-dog-behaviourist/
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Transcripts
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Hello and welcome back to the Yappy
2
:Hour, powered by Yappily, I'm your
host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today, wow,
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:this is a bit of a pinch me moment.
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:I'm joined by someone who has
shaped modern dog training
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:across the world, the incredible.
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:Victoria Stilwell, you'll know her
from her TV work, including It's
7
:Me Or The Dog, and most recently,
The Dog Academy on Channel four.
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:She's an internationally respected
trainer, educator, author, and the
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:founder of the Victoria Stilwell Academy.
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:In today's conversation, we are
digging into something truly
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:game changing for pet parents.
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:Living with reactivity.
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:Victoria's reactivity zones approach
a modern force free framework
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:that goes beyond traditional.
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:Desensitization counter conditioning
and focuses on safety, trust,
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:choice, and real life living.
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:If you share your life with a reactive dog
or love, someone who does this episode is
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:full of real hopeful guidance that meets
both dogs and guardians where they are.
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:So grab a cup of tea, settle
in, and let's get started.
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:Victoria Stilwell,
welcome to the Yappy Hour.
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:How are you doing?
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:Victoria Stilwell: I am good
and I'm so pleased to be here.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
I'm so excited to chat with you and
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:I'm so pleased you're, you've come on.
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:So thank you for your time.
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:Victoria, before we get into the deep
stuff, how are you arriving today?
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:What's life been like
for you at the moment?
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:Victoria Stilwell: Busy as usual.
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:Yes.
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:I mean, I'm traveling a
lot and just working hard.
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:It's a lot of developing courses,
writing academy work not necessarily
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:so much field work as I call it right
now, which is always what it's like
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:over Christmas and in the wintertime and
it's always by, by the end of February.
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:I'm like, I just need to get out there.
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:So, you know, it's, it's good.
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:It just, it's busy.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: I
am pleased to hear that, and I'm gonna
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:be meeting you again at the end of March.
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:You're coming back to the uk.
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:You are in the States
at the moment, are you?
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:Victoria Stilwell: Yes.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: Southern United States
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah,
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:Victoria Stilwell: have
done for many years.
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:In fact, I came back to England
to film It's me or the dog.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: yeah
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:Victoria Stilwell: and I really
started my training life in
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:London and then Manhattan.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: baptism of
fire that was, yeah, so I come
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:back and forth, but I'm excited.
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:It's the emotional wellbeing in Animals
Conference run by Andrew Hale, who
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: adore and you
are gonna be there and I'm so glad.
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:I'm so excited.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
I'm so excited as well.
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:Got to meet you at ABK last
summer, so get to see you again
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:and you've come on the podcast.
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:So we're gonna have
such a great chat today.
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:Victoria, you've had an incredible
career, books, tv, global teaching.
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:We touched on it just for the
show just then, but did you
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:ever imagine dog training with
take you to where you are now?
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:Victoria Stilwell: No, never, ever.
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:I mean, was content to be
a dog trainer in Manhattan.
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:I had a good business there.
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:Dog trainers of New York, it was called.
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:then when I moved out to New Jersey,
we had dog trainers of New Jersey
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:and dog trainers of New York.
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:So it was, and we did, we
did private one-to-ones.
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:So there were no group classes.
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:And it was myself and my business partner.
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:And really after a while,
we didn't have to advertise.
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:And by the, when I say advertising,
this is before social media.
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:Right.
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:media advertising, this means boots on the
ground going and putting up your flyers
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:at pet shops and veterinary surgeries.
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:And that's, that's what we had to do.
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:But word of mouth spread very quickly.
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:So after a while we didn't have to
advertise because we had so much work.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Amazing.
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:Excuse me.
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:That's absolutely amazing.
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:Victoria, you've influenced so
many pet parents across the world.
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:What still excites you
about the work that you do?
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:Victoria Stilwell: But I don't think
our work is ever done because we're
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:still learning so much more about dogs.
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:And as you know, behavioural science
and cognitive science evolves.
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:We learn more.
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:That's what excites me and.
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:fact that there's, you know, every day
the reason why we are so busy, there
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:are new people and new dogs and people
that need help, either helping to raise
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:their dogs or helping if there's, or,
or needing us if there is an issue.
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:So even though I don't do private training
anymore, I will do the odd occasional one.
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:And I also consult with shelters
as well to help them there.
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:yeah, it's it, it always, I don't know,
learning about dogs, continuing working
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:with dogs, seeing when things just,
know, you go and you do a session and
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:you come out and you go, oh my gosh,
I just, that dog just learn something.
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:That person just learn something.
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:They're better off because
of what we just did.
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:That is why this job is so amazing.
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:'cause it's never the same.
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:It can be challenging.
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:So it keeps you on your toes.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
It does.
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:Victoria Stilwell: And it can
be really emotionally draining,
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:but it's also really rewarding
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Mm.
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:Brilliant.
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:Thank you so much.
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:So we're gonna be moving on to our first
topic of this evening, and that's what
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:do guardians get wrong about reactivity?
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:So when you think about the average
guardian living with a reactive
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:dog in inverted, what do you feel
is the biggest misconception or
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:misunderstanding that they start with?
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:Victoria Stilwell: blaming the dog
or thinking that the dog's being
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:nasty or dominant or controlling.
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:And I understand why I'm not blaming them.
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:I understand why, because reactivity can
be scary, overwhelming, embarrassing.
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:so I understand why people
think that about their dogs, but
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Mm.
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:Victoria Stilwell: it's
putting blame on the dogs.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: biggest mistake.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:It must be, like you say, living with,
there's a, I hate that word, reactivity
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:because there's so many reasons why a
dog could be reactive, nervous, anxious,
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:you know, so it's hard when you, you
all get banded in that same bracket.
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:Isn't that.
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:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah, it really is.
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:So that's why that label from the dog,
we, we still use that verbiage though.
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:You're not gonna stop guardians.
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:We call guard owners, guardians.
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:You're not gonna stop
guardians from using it.
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:And you're also not gonna
stop trainers from using it.
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:'cause it's a, actually a really good
word to describe what we're seeing.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Yeah, that's it.
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:And it's the word that most guardians
are more familiar with as well.
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:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah, yeah,
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Brilliant.
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:Victoria Stilwell: it's easier
than saying, I am seeing a dog
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:that is showing reactive behaviour.
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:That's why you just say, oh yeah.
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:In my case, it's a reactive dog.
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:Easy.
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:Done.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Why do you think reactivity carries
so much shame for the dog guardians?
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:Victoria Stilwell: It's a very active,
of the time, very loud behaviour.
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:And I think that there's a stigma on that.
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:So people will at people that are
having issues with their dogs,
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:walking their dogs down the road.
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:And I know a lot of people that have dogs
that are displaying reactive behaviour.
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:Get shouted at a lot, you know,
keep your dog under control.
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:the poor person is desperately
trying to do that the dog is going
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:full cujo at the end of their leash.
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:it's, it's really difficult.
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:And so are struggling and I think
if there was less judgment and more
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:understanding of like, Hey, I see you're
going through something really difficult.
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:I, I'm not gonna pass judgment.
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:I'm gonna walk on by really quickly,
or I'm going to go in the other
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:direction, or to help people that
do have dogs that are showing this
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:behaviour, we'd all be much better off.
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:But there is a stigma to it.
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:'cause who wants to be out
of control with their dog?
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:Especially if it's a large dog.
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:If it's a small dog, other people laugh.
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:Oh, look at that shit.
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:Wow, what isn't that funny?
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: I.
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:Victoria Stilwell: If
it's a large dog, right?
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:If it's a large dog, people are like,
oh, huh, you can't control your dog.
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:Why do you have a dog?
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:Keep your dog under control.
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:That's why it's embarrassing.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:And the, the bigger dogs, they,
they like the smaller dogs.
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:It it, like you said, it's laughter
upon, but it needs to be taken seriously.
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:If like a, if a dog like bites,
it's just the same as the All
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:dog bites count, don't they?
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:Victoria Stilwell: Yes.
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:And if, if you've got a any dog
that's frustrated or agitated,
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:nervous or fearful or overwhelmed,
and you're laughing at that, I mean,
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:well, the behaviour might look quite
comical in a little chihuahua that's
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:taking on a person or a massive dog.
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:Oh, yeah.
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:You know, and as a chihuahua
guardian of my beautiful girl
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:who recently passed away,
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Oh, yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: I understand that.
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:Oh, they're so cute.
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:And look at that.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: it's really upsetting.
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:you know what that dog's going
through or at least you have an idea
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:of what that dog's going through
and that's no laughing matter.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
I often say that my, I shouldn't
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:say, but my chihuahuas think they're
rottweilers, but they're just so, I
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:love them and I'm a Chihuahua dad and
a toed dad now, but like, they've just
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:got so much character and bravado and
zest and, and they just get mis they
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:get misinterpreted and like people Yeah.
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:They always get a bad rep.
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:Victoria Stilwell: always, always, and
look, I mean, if you're that small,
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:that's quite, that's terrifying.
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:The world is very big.
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:And so sometimes you've
gotta say, Hey, I'm here.
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:You gotta shout a bit to
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: here, or I'm
uncomfortable, or I don't feel
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:great and you need to be heard so.
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:I mean, I do, but I, I agree.
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:I think chihuahuas are
very emotional dogs.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Hi dust.
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:Victoria Stilwell: large.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
They do listen, right.
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:Victoria, we're gonna be moving on to our
next section, which is introducing the
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:reactivity zones approach, RZA in bracket.
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:So we're gonna be explaining
it all and what it's all about.
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:So this is exciting.
220
:So for those hearing about the reactivity
zones approach for the first time,
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:could you explain what it actually is
in simple everyday language, please.
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:Victoria Stilwell: Oh my gosh.
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:I do, you know, when you send me this
question, I'm like, how do I explain it
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:in a c How do, how am I succinct about it?
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:Okay.
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:It is an approach that sends us
the dog in comfort that does not
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:rely on setups or exposure finds
where the jaw dog is joyful.
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:Builds upon it.
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:It's an approach where we work
with the dog regardless of what is
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:happening in the world around us.
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:And it is designed for the
real world because we know that
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:the real world is complicated.
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:We can't always do setups.
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:We are going to be encountering
difficult situations.
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:Now remember, my training
journey starts in London and
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:then it continues in Manhattan.
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:are two really overwhelming environments,
and it was from there that even though
238
:I'd a lot of DSEC for many, many years,
you can see it on my show and loved DSCC,
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:I, there was more needed and that's why
this has kind of been simmering for a
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:long time and now being able to it out.
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:That, that's been a labor of love for me.
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:But yes, that's it in a nutshell.
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:I dunno if it describes it
very well, but it's, that's it.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
No, I love it.
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:And just for our listeners or viewers
watching DS, C'S desensitization
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:and counter condition, isn't it?
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:Victoria Stilwell: yes.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Yeah, no, no, it's all good.
249
:So you talk about free zones, there's
the comfort zone, the tolerance
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:zone, and the discomfort zone.
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:Can you walk us through each one and
what that looks like in real life?
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:Victoria Stilwell: Yes.
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:So three really easy words,
trainers, especially trainers that
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:have received a lot of education.
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:They know what they're talking
about when they're talking about
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:desensitization and counting conditioning
and what the dog's going through.
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:It's really hard though clients to get it.
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:So when you distill it down.
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:Into three zones of this
is the dog's comfort zone.
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:This is where your dog is joyful,
where they can do what they want to
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:do and feel very comfortable doing it.
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:This is where the dog has
more agency, more choice.
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:You are less of a factor the dog
has more choice and freedom to do
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:what they're really good at doing.
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:the comfort zone.
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:And
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: can be with you as
well, but it's where we can give dogs
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:more freedom or agency, more choice,
mobility and to learn and where we can
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:teach them some really cool skills.
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:The tolerance zone is where your dog
is, where many of our dogs are, and in
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:fact, where a lot of desensitization
and counter conditioning happens front,
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:even at a distance of the trigger.
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:So tolerance looks like where dog is not.
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:Fully reacting, but they're
a little uncomfortable and
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:you can see the behaviour.
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:They might be a bit hypervigilant.
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:They, they know that the
trigger's there, but they might
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:be scanning and they're not.
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:They might take food and they might
listen to cues, do what you ask them,
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:but they're not entirely comfortable.
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:They're tolerating it.
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:The discomfort zone is when they
are in discomfort and a lot of
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:that behaviour is very active.
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:It's a lot of barking and lunging and,
but the discomfort doesn't necessarily
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:mean going full out active behaviour, but
it's where dogs target on the trigger,
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:they can't think of anything else.
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:They're not looking
around at anything else.
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:They've just focused on the trigger.
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:So it's very clear for clients to
see where their dogs are and part
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:of the activity zones approach.
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:Is teaching dogs or clients to recognize
their own dog's, unique body language
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:and body language.
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:Universal body language of course
is important to understand,
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:but we really focus on the
nuances of each particular dog.
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:So, and I, I'll let you ask more
questions 'cause I'll, I will just
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:riff, I'm just gonna go off on it.
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:But those are the three zones.
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:And actually the reason why we chose
those words because I think it really
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:describes the dog feels in each zone.
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:But it's also really, really easy
for guardians to understand, oh,
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell:
uncom, is in discomfort.
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:I need to make a change.
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:My dog is intolerance.
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:I need to make a change.
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:And that's the beauty of
it, is its simplicity.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Yeah, I love that.
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:So what makes this framework different
to the traditional desensitization
310
:and counter conditioning?
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:Victoria Stilwell: Okay, DSCC very much.
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:It's all to do with exposure, whatever
protocol you are using, and there
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:are lots of good protocols out there.
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:It, they all rely on the trigger, even
the trigger at the dis at a distance.
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:So that could be another dog, it could
be a person, and that dog or that person
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:is at a distance where our dog, our dog
that has the reactive behaviour our dog
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:is unquote comfortable, IE not reacting.
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:And the whole idea, obviously is to get
that dog closer and closer to the trigger.
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:Noting its comfort, hoping
that it doesn't react.
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:But the reason why DSCC, and as
I said, I've done this a lot.
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:I've done D-S-C-C-A lot, but I always felt
it wasn't robust It's hard for guardians
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:to continue with some of these protocols.
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:And so again, simplicity is needed.
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:And this is where I talk about
the tolerance zone because in
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:fact, a lot of these protocols
are working on dogs in tolerance.
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:So the dogs aren't going full
blown, barking and lunging.
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:But that doesn't mean to say
that they're comfortable yet.
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:We're working them in intolerance.
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:And we get closer and they don't show a
reaction, guess what We call it a success.
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:And then what happens?
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:We make it harder because we get closer.
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:And I began to think that that's not
very fair on our dogs and that we
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:are calling things to su a success
when actually all our dogs really
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:wanna do is go the other way.
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:Yet we're using food or toys or praise
and causing what I call cheese feelings.
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:So one, one of the things that we
say a azae is that, you know, no
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:one wants a picnic in a war zone.
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:So if you've got a dog there that is
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:and yet you are piling it with
chicken because you're trying to
340
:build up a positive association,
what you're really doing is just
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:layering that, that layering.
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:Association on top of
the negative association.
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:And is that new association robust
enough to counter the negative
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:association or is it merely covering it?
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:can test this by not using food
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Mm-hmm.
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:Victoria Stilwell: that same
situation where you see a success,
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:try it without using food.
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:Is the dog truly comfortable and going?
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:Got it.
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:I see.
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:I'm much more comfortable.
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:Or the dog going?
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:Yeah, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to
tell that other dog I'm gonna have to
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:shout to get that other dog to go away.
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:So
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
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:Victoria Stilwell: DSCC can be long and
laborious for guardians to learn and
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:do, and they're complex protocols, it's
not just because of observation and what
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:I've seen, it's also rooted in science.
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:And I dunno whether you want
me to continue with that before
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:you ask another question.
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:Okay.
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:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Please do.
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:Victoria Stilwell: So there are studies
that have been done in people, right?
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:So D-D-S-E-C, really, if we look
at cognitive behavioural therapy
367
:and since the fifties, sixties,
that's kind of been the norm for
368
:people that have anxiety or trauma.
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:And extensive studies have been done
really comprehensive, very good studies
370
:that are now showing that actually
this this therapy for people that
371
:have PTSD, for example, might not
be as robust as they first thought
372
:because in this study they took.
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:People that have PTSD and some, they
used the kind of classic desensitization
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:counting conditioning for people and
for the set of people they just had
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:about, they just had time to just
to talk, just to talk, for an hour,
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:just to talk one time per week.
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:Because what you're seeing with people
that have trauma is because traditional
378
:behavioural therapy or cognitive
behavioural therapy is asking people
379
:to relive those memories and to address
them to bring to the forefront of their
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:consciousness and to address them.
381
:There is a lot of fallout and what
they're seeing is that a lot of people
382
:coming to the sessions 'cause it's too
painful, there's too much exposure.
383
:Yet the people that were losing the
PTSD diagnosis were the ones that were
384
:just able to talk for an hour a week.
385
:So when you look at a study
like that, we're already on
386
:that path, we're going, huh?
387
:This is kind of what I'm seeing in
dogs when exposures happening, we're
388
:always keeping dogs in that tolerance.
389
:And sometimes we're seeing this,
this cycle of dog's doing well, then
390
:it regresses and then we have to
go back and then it's doing well.
391
:Then it regresses, and then we might
get it to a point where actually can
392
:walk past another dog, but not entirely
comfortable and we're still having to
393
:use food or play with our toys or do
something so that the dog does not react.
394
:And that's where I began
to think, wait a second.
395
:I think the same thing
is happening with dogs.
396
:Studies also been done with children.
397
:Children that are having difficulties
with mathematics reading in school.
398
:And so they act up and guess what?
399
:They're taken out to the head of school.
400
:So they're taken outta class.
401
:And what's great about that is the kid
knows they act up, they're gonna leave.
402
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
403
:Victoria Stilwell: So they're getting
escape through their active behaviour
404
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
405
:Victoria Stilwell: understanding
that active behaviour and going,
406
:okay, we're gonna help you.
407
:But then when you see success, making it
harder, you'll see kids regressing again.
408
:But when you give them more agency
and the ability to escape, give
409
:them more choice and ways to escape.
410
:It might not be in physical
escape, but it, it's understanding
411
:how, how that kid can cope.
412
:The nos turn into yeses.
413
:it's all, it's, it's taken really
from the studies that have been
414
:done in humans and seeing how they
apply to dogs and also seeing the
415
:success in the field of R-Z-A-Z-A.
416
:Sorry, it's really
difficult for me to say.
417
:It's, I, I have to be really careful
of what country I am speaking to.
418
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: It.
419
:Okay.
420
:That's fine.
421
:Brilliant.
422
:Thanks Victoria.
423
:So what inspired you to
create this approach?
424
:Was there a moment when you
just realized the old way wasn't
425
:helping enough dogs or guardians?
426
:I.
427
:Victoria Stilwell: I have two.
428
:I had two dogs that
showed reactive behaviour.
429
:One was Sadie, who I adopted
when she was five, but she was a
430
:large Labrador, and man, she was
strong and big and loud and scary.
431
:And I did a lot of DSCC with her.
432
:And so we were able to walk past
other dogs pretty successfully,
433
:as long as I had food.
434
:And pretty successfully actually
sometimes without food as well.
435
:entirely comfortable, but definitely
better progress with Jasmine.
436
:Yeah, yeah.
437
:Food.
438
:Screw that.
439
:Like I don't, no, you can praise me
all you like and yeah, I don't care
440
:about games because what I'm gonna
do is shout really loudly that other
441
:dog to tell 'em to get away from me.
442
:So then I was like, okay, well Jasmine,
we're gonna have to find another way.
443
:And I thought, okay, I'm gonna just teach
you some skills, some escape skills.
444
:I'm gonna teach her how we can move
through these, through these situations.
445
:And I'm also going to teach her skills
that I'm gonna take from what I've
446
:learned from her when she's in comfort.
447
:And one of the things, when she's in
comfort, she asks to be picked up.
448
:So I go, okay, we are going to
do a pickup cue, also I'm gonna
449
:really read her body language.
450
:Whenever she asks me to pick
her up, I'm gonna pick her up.
451
:Fast forward to when we are on the
street, she, there's another dog coming.
452
:She looks back at me.
453
:I see, oh, she wants to be picked up.
454
:I pick her up, we walk past
the other dog, I put her down.
455
:I go, wait a second.
456
:I'm a trainer.
457
:I shouldn't be picking my dog up.
458
:I shouldn't be reinforcing that behaviour.
459
:I should be walking her past another
dog and giving her some food.
460
:And then I was like, okay, penny drop.
461
:Nope.
462
:She is telling me what she needs there,
and then she needs to be picked up.
463
:So I pick her up.
464
:Can't do that obviously with the bigger
dogs, but I can do that with her.
465
:It was like a, the light bulb went off,
but B, also how, how did it take that
466
:long with all of the stuff and the work I
was trying to do with her to finally get
467
:it and go, gonna tell me what she needs.
468
:And she did.
469
:And then from then on, she didn't
always need to be picked up.
470
:When we passed another dog, she could
go off and do her sniffing because
471
:she knew I was there as her anchor.
472
:If she needed me, I was there.
473
:And that's why the reactivity
zones approach is so powerful
474
:because you are the dog human team.
475
:There's no blame.
476
:There's no blame on the dog because
reactivity isn't set inside the dog.
477
:Yes, there might be sensitivities that
the dog might have, but if that dog
478
:lived on the house on the hill, right
and saw no other dogs, if Jasmine
479
:lived on the house on the hill she
never saw other dogs at all, she'd
480
:never be labeled a reactive dog.
481
:'cause you wouldn't need
to show that behaviour.
482
:So isn't inside the dog.
483
:It's not a character trait.
484
:It is the friction between
the dog and the environment.
485
:And so when we look at environment,
that is the key to the reactivity
486
:zones approach is the environment.
487
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
488
:Love that.
489
:Right.
490
:Let's get practical then.
491
:Almost felt like getting get, let's
get physical in Olivia Newton Journal.
492
:You know, start jigging along.
493
:So applying art ZA in real life, a
lot of guardians struggle because dog
494
:training feels like it only works in
those perfect controlled scenarios.
495
:But how does RZ Day help people
in the real world with prams
496
:bikes, off lead dogs, and all
the chaos that comes with life?
497
:Victoria, I.
498
:Victoria Stilwell: yeah.
499
:So it's a real attention to
environment, to detail and to understand
500
:that sometimes life gets messy.
501
:I think you just, when a, when
we tell guardians yet you don't
502
:have a reactive dog, they cry.
503
:They are
504
:and they're like, my dog is not deficient.
505
:My dog is just saying how it feels,
whether it's frustrated, wants to
506
:go greet, or it's uncomfortable.
507
:Your dog is just saying how it feels.
508
:immediately there you remove the shame.
509
:And a lot of the time we just
take, we like, this isn't, this
510
:isn't your fault by the way.
511
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
512
:Victoria Stilwell: try.
513
:You're doing the best you can.
514
:That's all we can do.
515
:we're just gonna give you a
few other bits and pieces that
516
:you can do that might help you.
517
:We do a lot of what you
know, people are, are doing.
518
:'cause a lot of trainers
are doing this, right?
519
:They're doing parts of this already.
520
:we say, okay, sometimes you might need
a vacation away from that particular
521
:environment where you are walking the dog.
522
:And whilst we're doing that for
the next couple of weeks, we're
523
:going to teach in the comfort zone.
524
:teach your dog some great skills
that you can use in the tolerance
525
:zone to move through a situation and
in the discomfort zone to get away.
526
:So escape behaviours like the
emergency U-turn offer, the discomfort
527
:zone, moving through a situation,
whether we are actively moving or
528
:stationary in one place are skills
we build for the tolerance zone.
529
:And then of course the comfort
zone speaks for itself.
530
:'cause the dog shows us what
skills that it likes to do.
531
:But we do teach attention in
the comfort zone and sniffy
532
:skills if the dog needs that.
533
:So you can teach whatever skills you
want in any zone as long as they follow.
534
:Discomfort means escape.
535
:Tolerance means move through or stay
stationary as that trigger walks past.
536
:And then comfort means whatever the
dog loves doing and finds joy in doing.
537
:That's the beauty of it, the
simplicity of it for guardians.
538
:So we are teaching skills, but
we are teaching easy skills.
539
:And the beauty of this as well
is if you find something doesn't
540
:work, go on to something else.
541
:if you want to bring in some stuff
that you've already been doing or
542
:stuff from another protocol, do it.
543
:will find where your balance is,
but I think that's, we are not
544
:gonna do it in front of a trigger.
545
:And so when, for example, so let's say
I am out in the real world and a dog is
546
:coming along and I have my little dog.
547
:I will have pre walked without my dog.
548
:The route.
549
:is vital that people pre-war the
roots you are gonna take your dog on.
550
:So you can find what trees you
can hide behind, what walls you
551
:can get up on the environment.
552
:Whether you are in a shelter or
whether you are outside or indoors.
553
:Find amazing things in the environment
that you can use to help your dog.
554
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
555
:Victoria Stilwell: And so go for a
walk without your dog walk around
556
:your house without your dog to
find what is gonna be successful.
557
:So then I might know that at this
particular point, there's another dog
558
:walking past, there's a wall here and
teach my dog who already knows how to
559
:pause up or hop up to hop up on the wall.
560
:When dogs are at a higher height,
especially with little dogs,
561
:they feel more comfortable.
562
:Plus, it's a way to say to
other dogs do not come near
563
:and to people do not come near.
564
:It's like a signal, universal
signal that people know.
565
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
566
:Victoria Stilwell: rarely run up to
dogs that are on walls, for example.
567
:So that's just an example of how
we can use it in the real world.
568
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Love it.
569
:So what does it look like if a dog
slips into the discomfort zone?
570
:And what should guardians
do in those moments?
571
:Victoria?
572
:Victoria Stilwell: So the discomfort
zone is very clearly where the dog
573
:now focuses on the trigger walking
past or the trigger in the distance,
574
:and cannot focus on anything else.
575
:It is, it is the, the dog might be
incredibly tense and the dog can bark and
576
:lunge, but it is fixed onto that trigger.
577
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
578
:Victoria Stilwell: that
is when we use our escape.
579
:Now the dog already knows that Q word.
580
:The dog already has learnt the steps of
the dance and knows that when you say
581
:turning, oh, we're gonna get out of there.
582
:Great.
583
:And so that's why I liken all of this
to dancing because so much reactivity,
584
:you're dancing different steps.
585
:You're treading on each other's toes.
586
:It's all, it's terrible.
587
:It's not strictly, it's awful.
588
:It's actually, it's, it's when
strictly is awful, And things go
589
:badly wrong, that's reactivity.
590
:So the dog's got to learn
the steps of the dance.
591
:The person's got to learn
the steps of the dance.
592
:Then you put it together, you rehearse
it in comfort, and you rehearse it
593
:and rehearse it and rehearse it.
594
:And then you go out and you
rehearse it outside and everybody
595
:knows what they're going to do.
596
:You are making, whether you are
in a different environment, a
597
:different situation, you are
making things predictable.
598
:So when I say turning, the dog knows,
oh, mom's turning in the direction.
599
:I'm gonna go with her.
600
:And we get outta there.
601
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
602
:Victoria Stilwell: understand
my dogs need to escape.
603
:We're gonna go.
604
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Off we go.
605
:Brilliant.
606
:You place a lot of emphasis
on letting dogs have choice.
607
:Why is that so important for
their emotional wellbeing,
608
:especially for those reactive dogs?
609
:Victoria Stilwell: So humans on average,
and I hope I've got this number right,
610
:make around 32,000 choices a day.
611
:something ridiculous
612
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
613
:Yeah.
614
:Victoria Stilwell: and what
choices do our dogs make?
615
:Pretty much not, I mean, you are
the one who lets them out to toilet.
616
:You are the one that says
when they're gonna walk.
617
:You are the one that says
when they're gonna be fed.
618
:But can you imagine going through life,
not knowing what's gonna happen, and
619
:then when you get taken for a walk.
620
:Really not knowing where you're gonna
go or when you get put in the car,
621
:you don't know what's gonna happen.
622
:they live in a world of
uncertainty we start making
623
:things more predictable for them.
624
:And that's why I think
choice is real part of that.
625
:okay, simple things.
626
:You want this toy or this toy?
627
:Make your choice.
628
:It's like when we, when we
have little ones, right?
629
:So when your toddler is old enough and
you put out three, know, clothing sets for
630
:school, which one do you wanna wear today?
631
:That toddler is able to make that choice.
632
:You are giving that kid some agency.
633
:Now, even at a very young age.
634
:We know that in children, when you give
them more agency, more choice, that they
635
:grow up to be more confident adults.
636
:The same with the same with dogs.
637
:So when I can give the dog more choice
about the direction it wants to walk
638
:in, now the dog has some empowered
because maybe the world is not so scary
639
:and that they have more ability, more
confidence to be able to deal with it.
640
:I don't want my dogs just to cope.
641
:I want my dogs to thrive, and I
think Choice helps them do that.
642
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
643
:Victoria Stilwell: But you know,
I mean we're such control freaks.
644
:God forbid we give dogs choice and I know
the positive community is much more into
645
:giving dogs choice, which is amazing.
646
:But you know, for other trainers out
there, it's almost like the heads
647
:will explode or you can't do that
'cause Oh my God, forbid we do that.
648
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Oh my God.
649
:Right.
650
:What does reading the dog in
inverted commas really mean?
651
:And are there some subtle signs
that guardians often miss?
652
:Victoria Stilwell: Well, I think
just guardians and trainers
653
:miss the signs of tolerance.
654
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
655
:Victoria Stilwell: the
whole thing with DSCC.
656
:I don't think they are.
657
:I mean, it depends on how
experienced the trainer is.
658
:But even with experienced trainers, I
think they're just, and I, I'm putting
659
:myself in there as well, like I used to
do all the time, just piling more and
660
:more and more on these dogs thinking
that we're doing well and it's a success.
661
:Moving our dogs closer to triggers.
662
:'cause they're not going sh
they're not shouting yet.
663
:And trying to look at body language and
seeing that our dogs are comfortable, but
664
:because we're under pressure with our,
with our clients and also with ourselves
665
:'cause we need to prove it as well.
666
:And we want to be hired again,
that we gotta do this fast.
667
:So sometimes we might push and
we are really good at pushing,
668
:trainers are really good at pushing,
if you're a positive trainer,
669
:understand it, you are under the gun.
670
:And you know that person is looking at you
going, okay, I need you to fix my dog now.
671
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
672
:Victoria Stilwell: So I think, I
think, you know, our hats off to to, to
673
:trainers out there listening to this.
674
:I understand that pressure you are in,
675
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
676
:Victoria Stilwell: the dog under pressure.
677
:But that's not always good.
678
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Probably not realizing,
679
:yeah, you're right.
680
:You are feeling it, but you unknowingly
you are putting that onto the dog.
681
:Victoria Stilwell: Yep.
682
:Yeah.
683
:And with the best of intentions too,
684
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Exactly.
685
:Victoria Stilwell: difficult to understand
that intolerance, you know, you might
686
:be comfortable and the only reason why
you are comfortable is that your dog
687
:is not making you uncomfortable yet,
688
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
689
:Victoria Stilwell: because it's
not going full blast shouting, but
690
:the dog is still uncomfortable,
hasn't made you uncomfortable.
691
:And when you understand
that fact, you go, oh, hard.
692
:It's hard to look at yourself
and go, okay, I get it.
693
:I
694
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
695
:Yeah.
696
:Brilliant.
697
:Thank you.
698
:You often mention about proactive
management tools like blocking,
699
:stationing, emergency UANs.
700
:How can these be taught
kindly and confidently?
701
:Victoria, I,
702
:Victoria Stilwell: do
703
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: I.
704
:Victoria Stilwell: food.
705
:We just don't use food to
create a positive association.
706
:I might use food as in a lick magnet
to help my dog get outta there.
707
:I just teach a dog, you know, to,
there are dogs that love licking.
708
:Okay, let's use that and let's put
some peanut butter at the end of a
709
:spoon, or on my hand or in a squeeze
tube and put it up to the dog's nose.
710
:And then we just, you know, we
go together and we do that dance.
711
:And sometimes, you know, we, we do
fun things like riding the dog's
712
:name as they follow that lick magnet.
713
:So we use food we've gone past a
trigger, we might say, Hey, great
714
:job, boom, and have some food.
715
:we don't use food to create
a positive association.
716
:So all of this stuff can be
taught in a really positive way.
717
:I learned, so Patricia McConnell,
who's my mentor, and somebody who's
718
:made a huge impact in my life.
719
:You know, I learned a lot about the
Emergency U-turn from her, but I also
720
:learned about the emergency U-turn from
my grandmother, who was not a trainer.
721
:She was a dog breeder, bred beagles.
722
:And actually, you know, the, the
whole Crofts controversy at the
723
:moment by the way, I'm working
with Crofts, so it's all right.
724
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Okay.
725
:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah, and working
with some great people there.
726
:My grandmother ex showed
her dogs at Crofts, and so I
727
:grew up as a young handler.
728
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Right.
729
:Victoria Stilwell: Anyway, one thing
that she taught, she lived next to the
730
:River Thames in this beautiful village.
731
:And so we would take her dogs for a
walk along the Thames and in the field.
732
:It was beautiful.
733
:And when she got to the point where the
dogs needed to turn round, would say,
734
:turning, and the dogs would look at her.
735
:And turn around and follow her.
736
:So I now use for the emergency U-turn,
I have that same thought in my head.
737
:We're going for a lovely walk.
738
:Okay, we're going in the other direction.
739
:And I go turning.
740
:'cause it's really difficult to
say turning in a panicked way.
741
:So that's why.
742
:And I've had other people and a good
colleague of mine that other people
743
:use different words and, you know,
I hope this doesn't offend people
744
:if I use this word my colleague
told me about a train, a friend of
745
:theirs who used the words, oh shit.
746
:Because that's what she would say a
lot when they encountered other dogs.
747
:She'd go, oh, oh o and turn around.
748
:So she turned that phrase around and
made it a oh, which was brilliant.
749
:So anyway, I used turning to do
the emergency U-turn dogs love it
750
:'cause there's that nice light voice.
751
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Love that.
752
:Victoria Stilwell: They know we're
gonna go off in the other direction.
753
:You can do it on lead and off.
754
:Lead.
755
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
756
:Oh, I love that.
757
:Turn in.
758
:I've got that.
759
:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah.
760
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
gonna have that go.
761
:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah.
762
:Right.
763
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Brilliant.
764
:Right.
765
:So moving on to building
resilience, not obedience.
766
:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah.
767
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
you, you've said before that RZA
768
:is about resilience, not obedience.
769
:What does resilience look like
in a reactive dog, Victoria?
770
:Victoria Stilwell: Okay.
771
:There's a difference between coping
thriving, and I think we've got to
772
:be really careful when we are trying
to build resilience in our dogs.
773
:What does it look like?
774
:We look at rate of recovery.
775
:quickly does it, do our dogs recover
from a loud noise, a stressful situation?
776
:Does it take them a long time?
777
:Does it take them a short time?
778
:Can they bounce back?
779
:What is that rate of recovery?
780
:quickly do they bounce back?
781
:And I think if we see that
rate of recovery as being quite
782
:quick, again, our tendency is to
push, oh, is more resilient now.
783
:Now we can put them in
harder, harder environments.
784
:So I think we got to be really careful
when we talk about resilience and
785
:what does it look like different for
every dogs, but sometimes resilience
786
:could literally be the fact that a dog
looks resilience of Jasmine looking
787
:at me saying, I need to be picked up.
788
:That to me is resilience.
789
:That to me is a dog that's thriving.
790
:It's not necessarily a dog
that goes, oh yeah, I'm good.
791
:I can walk past this
other dog and be fine.
792
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
793
:Victoria Stilwell: So we're
building it, we build it slowly
794
:we do not push, but it, to me.
795
:is the dog that understands now that
that environment, that walk, they know
796
:that there is a predictability and the
calmness that comes from predictability.
797
:And also trusting you and
trusting that you have their back.
798
:So there is a client who we
have a lot of electric fences.
799
:And so dogs will run to the end
of the electric to, to the bottom
800
:of the, the, the front yards,
front gardens, like anything.
801
:And then of course, which is terrible
for dogs that are showing reactive
802
:behaviour because then they bark
back 'cause they don't know that
803
:there's an invisible fence there.
804
:Resilience is when the dog has that
confidence now that we could walk past
805
:that fence with the dogs roaring down.
806
:They, they just, they did not
feel that need to shout back.
807
:They were like, looked without me saying
a look at them and look away from them.
808
:They looked, just walked
on fluid body language.
809
:Just, I got you.
810
:So that to me, the dog will
tell you when it is thriving,
811
:you don't do it the other way.
812
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
813
:Victoria Stilwell: That's resilience.
814
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Yeah, I love that.
815
:How does a guardian know that
they're making progress, especially
816
:when progress can sometimes be
a bit slow, messy, or emotional?
817
:Victoria Stilwell: So with.
818
:Aza day.
819
:Remember I've done a lot
of my work in Manhattan,
820
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Hmm.
821
:Victoria Stilwell: so dogs need to be
bought outta their apartments to toilet,
822
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yes.
823
:Victoria Stilwell: ones.
824
:A lot of the smaller dogs
are can be paper trained.
825
:So in fact, you'll find that in
Manhattan a lot of small dogs will
826
:be paper trained and they go outside,
827
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Oh, really?
828
:Victoria Stilwell: of worlds.
829
:Yeah,
830
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Oh.
831
:Victoria Stilwell: actually better
for us to use if we don't want the
832
:dog to go out in the, in the outside.
833
:But for the dogs that do need to
go out and toilet four times a
834
:day, you're taking that dog out
into its discomfort zone like that.
835
:So are you gonna do?
836
:Well, we teach discomfort
zones, really fast zone skills
837
:really fast, and they're easy.
838
:Emergency U-turns all kinds
of, you know, lick magnets.
839
:We teach them fast 'cause we understand,
and you know, in Manhattan we try,
840
:okay, walk your dog early in the
morning, walk your dog late at night.
841
:The two p breaks in the middle.
842
:If you can find an indentation where your
dog can go in a building or something, if
843
:there is a way that you can do that you
can do body blocking, things like that.
844
:We find ways, we find cars.
845
:There's lots of cars in Manhattan that's
parked on the side of the road or we
846
:find the trees, we walk the environment
first with the person without the dog.
847
:So we find, and, and this is
what's very exciting, because
848
:we're also using this for shelters.
849
:Even if you are working in the crappiest
shelter, what can we find in that
850
:environment to set our dogs up for
success, to make them feel better?
851
:So you can still, even if you're
taking your dog out to toilet four
852
:times a day in a city like Manhattan.
853
:You can still find ways
to help your dog through.
854
:So we start using discomfort zone skills
first if the dog is in discomfort,
855
:or we teach tolerance zone skills
if the dog is in intolerance when
856
:they go out and we gradually build.
857
:So what was your question, because
I've just gone off on a tangent.
858
:Your question was like, how is how fast?
859
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
No, that's fine.
860
:It just if a guardian how does a
guardian know if they're making
861
:progress, especially if the progress
is slow, messy, or, or emotional.
862
:Victoria Stilwell: Yeah.
863
:Interestingly enough we have, so everybody
has what's called negativity bias.
864
:That's why we ask guardians just
to keep a log of what happens.
865
:Just a one, one thing.
866
:Great walk today,
whatever dog did whatever.
867
:Because what happens is, is if
there is, and there will be.
868
:A moment that maybe didn't go so well,
will call you up and go, oh, it was just,
869
:it's just, it was, it went badly today.
870
:It was not a good day today.
871
:And you go, yeah, okay, I get it.
872
:'cause you know, it's real life, but
let's look at your journal before
873
:and wow, you have made a lot of progress.
874
:And they see, yes, because negative
negativity bias is when bad things happen.
875
:And that's all you can focus on,
though there's been massive progress.
876
:So it's really important that we keep data
and part of the reactivity zones approach,
877
:especially with the, the course I have
for professionals is that we keep data.
878
:Now, I am not an organized person.
879
:Data bores me.
880
:But keeping really good data.
881
:When we started to write the lesson, I
was like, Ugh, this is gonna be so boring.
882
:And then I geeked out on it.
883
:I was like, actually this is really
cool because it helps people see their
884
:progress and track their progress.
885
:It helps us, this is not working here.
886
:We now need to make a change
or this is working great.
887
:And even that glimmer sometimes with
clients, it can happen the next day.
888
:It can happen the next week.
889
:what we're seeing with reactivity
zones approach, it's not
890
:months and months and months.
891
:We're talking weeks, we're talking weeks.
892
:And I think that's the surprising thing.
893
:But I do have to say caveat here.
894
:Sometimes it's not for every dog.
895
:And then also,
896
:that where if you've got a dog with a bite
history, we are saying you need to, you
897
:need to get a trainer that is going to
work on aggression issues with your dog.
898
:So we are not saying that this
dog, if you've got a dog that's
899
:biting other dogs and biting
people and everything, no, no, no.
900
:You need to go to a specialist that
deals with aggressive behaviour.
901
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
902
:Mm.
903
:Victoria Stilwell: So I, I think
I want to make that very clear.
904
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Good.
905
:Yeah.
906
:Brilliant.
907
:How can the guardians stay
compassionate towards themselves?
908
:So activity can feel incredibly isolating,
but what would you want them to know?
909
:Victoria Stilwell: Well, first
of all, like I said in the
910
:beginning, it's not your fault.
911
:You don't, your dog is not a reactive dog.
912
:dog just has issues with
the environment, right?
913
:Your dog just has, friction between
your dog and certain triggers in the
914
:environment, and it's gonna be okay.
915
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah,
916
:Victoria Stilwell: really support.
917
:It's a, it's a team and you
know, we do use, as I said,
918
:we do use a lot of management.
919
:And we do use a lot of
pre-planning, pre-planning walks.
920
:We through leash skills.
921
:I've never understood, and I've done
this myself, why don't actually practice
922
:how to handle leashes and harnesses and
everything without dogs being in them
923
:so that we improve our leash skills.
924
:so we improve our walking skills.
925
:So I will literally take people
out with their leash and we walk
926
:with the leash and that's it.
927
:And I will hold the other end of the leash
and guardians get to know the feel of a,
928
:what it's like to be on that other end
of that leash when they hold the leash.
929
:when about how they guiding
their dogs, it's fabulous.
930
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
931
:Victoria Stilwell: Why are
we just putting this stuff on
932
:our dogs and taking them out?
933
:Like as I grew up with horses
and we never as children.
934
:Would ever just put a bridle on
a horse and a saddle on a horse
935
:without understanding how to use
that bridle, how to use that saddle
936
:and what it means for the horse.
937
:And then going through all of these safety
things before we actually get on and ride.
938
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
939
:Victoria Stilwell: So we empower clients,
940
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
941
:I love that.
942
:Victoria Stilwell: are very, they
become very knowledgeable very quickly,
943
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
944
:Victoria Stilwell: they
start to see results.
945
:But also, I do have to say, Nathan, we
are working in the real world as well.
946
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah,
947
:Victoria Stilwell: We don't have
robots at the other end of our leash.
948
:We have dogs,
949
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: yeah.
950
:Yeah.
951
:Victoria Stilwell: aren't gonna go well.
952
:You're gonna have that
dog running up to you.
953
:You're gonna have that kid on the
bike that all of a sudden the dog
954
:goes, oh, that you didn't notice it.
955
:The dog didn't notice it,
and it's going to happen.
956
:But as long as you have skills
to deal with it when it happens,
957
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
958
:Victoria Stilwell: that empowers handlers
959
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
960
:Amazing.
961
:Love that.
962
:Thank you.
963
:Oh, brilliant.
964
:So Victoria, we're gonna touch
on your TV work, if that's okay.
965
:As we start wrapping up.
966
:So you've had such an iconic presence
on TV from its meal, the dog or
967
:the dog academy on channel four.
968
:What's it been like bringing
force free behaviour education
969
:to mainstream audiences?
970
:Victoria Stilwell: I'd say it's
been an honor and also exhausting
971
:and amazing and difficult.
972
:I think when you see traders on tv,
love 'em will hate them, when, you
973
:know, you see me do stuff on television,
there's a lot of my pre-planning before.
974
:But when I go and see a family, it's
the first time I've actually met them.
975
:So before I see them I see like
we used to, oh my gosh, this is
976
:aging me a little DVDI used to
get DVDs of, you know, some of the
977
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
978
:Victoria Stilwell: about
three minutes, four minutes.
979
:And then of course they have to fill
out behavioural forms, the whole thing.
980
:And we have to have vet checks
and everything to make sure.
981
:But the time when I go into homes is what
the first time I meet with the family.
982
:As happens with the dog academy too.
983
:The first time we meet them is the
first time we meet them and you see
984
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Wow.
985
:Victoria Stilwell: camera.
986
:The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
987
:Victoria Stilwell: and
all the work is our work.
988
:It is not we don't have other
trainers planning the work for us.
989
:Might I say.
990
:all our work and that we, do ourselves.
991
:So we might, you know, there might
be protocols that we've learned and
992
:everything, but we don't have other
trainers planning our stuff for us.
993
:And that in itself means that
we have to be meticulous.
994
:is a it is very, very hard teach dogs
and people in front of cameras because
995
:not only do I have to be that forward
facing with the camera, knowing that
996
:entertainment value is important, but my
first concern is that dog and then that
997
:person, and I have to get it right, which
is a reason for every single thing I do.
998
:I always have a backup and then a backup.
999
:Because what I've become really good
with the show that I've done is a problem
:
00:55:33,611 --> 00:55:38,651
solving and certainly sometimes with,
let's say the dog academy, you might,
:
00:55:38,651 --> 00:55:42,161
the producers want to know exactly
what you are gonna do, where you are
:
00:55:42,161 --> 00:55:43,961
gonna do it, how long it's gonna be.
:
00:55:44,681 --> 00:55:48,671
And so we are under the, we're under
pressure to make sure that it's perfect.
:
00:55:50,771 --> 00:55:54,101
And the thing is, what happens is
sometimes the dog will come to you
:
00:55:54,101 --> 00:55:56,621
and what you might do doesn't work.
:
00:55:56,621 --> 00:56:01,631
And then, or you might go even
before you start working, oh,
:
00:56:01,691 --> 00:56:02,861
I have to pivot completely.
:
00:56:03,602 --> 00:56:03,892
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
:
00:56:03,971 --> 00:56:04,496
Victoria Stilwell: do it in this location.
:
00:56:04,496 --> 00:56:05,921
We have to do it in this location.
:
00:56:06,041 --> 00:56:07,901
I'm not gonna do what I
told you I was gonna do.
:
00:56:07,901 --> 00:56:09,281
I'm now gonna do something different.
:
00:56:09,461 --> 00:56:13,811
The producer's head is explodes,
but they're so good at going.
:
00:56:13,811 --> 00:56:14,231
Got it.
:
00:56:14,261 --> 00:56:14,681
Right.
:
00:56:14,771 --> 00:56:15,311
Pivot.
:
00:56:16,481 --> 00:56:20,801
That's what my crew at the it's meal,
the dog were really good at doing as well
:
00:56:21,482 --> 00:56:21,772
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah,
:
00:56:22,721 --> 00:56:25,091
Victoria Stilwell: the dogs at the
end of the day and you go in and
:
00:56:25,091 --> 00:56:26,231
you'll see something different.
:
00:56:27,757 --> 00:56:28,237
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: yeah,
:
00:56:28,316 --> 00:56:29,366
Victoria Stilwell: you do doesn't work.
:
00:56:29,366 --> 00:56:30,566
Now you have to pivot.
:
00:56:30,746 --> 00:56:33,026
So I, so it's really hard.
:
00:56:33,476 --> 00:56:39,806
Training dogs on television really
difficult and doing it in a positive way
:
00:56:40,106 --> 00:56:45,116
with the least amount of stress you can
for the dog, knowing that cameras are
:
00:56:45,116 --> 00:56:50,246
not normal for them, that's challenging.
:
00:56:51,127 --> 00:56:51,607
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: yeah.
:
00:56:52,027 --> 00:56:53,587
And we mentioned earlier
they're not robots.
:
00:56:53,767 --> 00:56:54,997
So dogs are animals.
:
00:56:54,997 --> 00:56:55,897
They're unpredictable.
:
00:56:55,897 --> 00:56:57,862
So you're gonna have
to mix it up and pivot.
:
00:56:59,276 --> 00:56:59,996
Victoria Stilwell: Totally.
:
00:57:00,206 --> 00:57:05,946
But I think that's what makes you it
definitely made me a better trainer.
:
00:57:05,946 --> 00:57:07,266
You know, I've evolved, right?
:
00:57:07,296 --> 00:57:09,726
The first show that I did was::
00:57:10,836 --> 00:57:13,116
I mean, miss Meal, the dog spans 20 years.
:
00:57:13,236 --> 00:57:15,216
And so so I've evolved.
:
00:57:15,216 --> 00:57:16,476
My methods have evolved.
:
00:57:16,476 --> 00:57:19,086
I used to do a lot of sound diversion.
:
00:57:19,146 --> 00:57:20,376
I don't do that anymore.
:
00:57:20,856 --> 00:57:23,166
And so a lot of my
techniques have evolved.
:
00:57:23,196 --> 00:57:24,996
The equipment I use has evolved.
:
00:57:26,406 --> 00:57:32,346
So, but I think that's also,
that's also good because
:
00:57:32,676 --> 00:57:34,086
every trainer needs to evolve.
:
00:57:34,176 --> 00:57:35,886
We need to have the courage to do so.
:
00:57:37,026 --> 00:57:40,056
If you're still doing what you
did 20 years ago, I don't think
:
00:57:40,056 --> 00:57:41,286
that's the mark of a good trainer.
:
00:57:45,032 --> 00:57:46,517
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Do you think that the public's
:
00:57:46,517 --> 00:57:50,777
understanding of reactivity and
behaviour is improving thanks to modern
:
00:57:50,777 --> 00:57:52,937
train and visibility in the media?
:
00:57:54,816 --> 00:57:55,746
Victoria Stilwell: Yes and no.
:
00:57:55,836 --> 00:57:58,446
I did up to the time of TikTok,
:
00:57:59,372 --> 00:57:59,952
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Oh God.
:
00:58:00,142 --> 00:58:00,432
Yeah.
:
00:58:01,476 --> 00:58:05,216
Victoria Stilwell: I think TikTok has
been I'm, I mean, I, I just have a small
:
00:58:05,216 --> 00:58:10,736
little channel on TikTok, but I think
it's been an absolute, I mean, it's
:
00:58:10,736 --> 00:58:15,596
been devastating for, for, for dogs in
general, people's understanding of dogs
:
00:58:15,596 --> 00:58:16,976
in the way they train them, because.
:
00:58:18,761 --> 00:58:24,791
Seeing a dog with gnashing teeth and
then being dominated by a trainer
:
00:58:25,211 --> 00:58:27,971
is weirdly sexy for a lot of people.
:
00:58:29,111 --> 00:58:31,121
It's seductive television, right?
:
00:58:31,481 --> 00:58:33,101
Man, conquers dog.
:
00:58:33,221 --> 00:58:37,511
And so they have millions of followers,
and they're not really trainers.
:
00:58:38,391 --> 00:58:43,281
Some of them are, some of them are just
not, but they call themselves trainers
:
00:58:44,087 --> 00:58:44,537
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah.
:
00:58:44,751 --> 00:58:45,291
Victoria Stilwell: damage.
:
00:58:45,411 --> 00:58:50,341
So I think that in this industry, we
were making great strides and people
:
00:58:50,341 --> 00:58:57,241
understanding what dogs needed how to
go about teaching them a different way.
:
00:58:58,441 --> 00:59:02,160
And now it seems to be regressing
a lot because people are getting
:
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,850
very seduced by what they see on
certain social media channels.
:
00:59:06,961 --> 00:59:08,160
And it's really sad.
:
00:59:08,221 --> 00:59:09,241
It's really sad.
:
00:59:09,756 --> 00:59:10,691
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
That is,
:
00:59:10,830 --> 00:59:12,930
Victoria Stilwell: say, I'm,
I'm so sad for the dogs.
:
00:59:13,471 --> 00:59:15,540
I just apologize to them
and say I'm really sorry.
:
00:59:17,892 --> 00:59:18,732
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
oh gosh, yeah.
:
00:59:19,392 --> 00:59:21,372
TikTok or I had a bad
experience with TikTok.
:
00:59:21,372 --> 00:59:22,497
I haven't gone back on six.
:
00:59:23,296 --> 00:59:26,265
Victoria Stilwell: Oh no, it's,
it's, I just do talking head stuff.
:
00:59:26,485 --> 00:59:30,895
It, it's, TikTok is really, it's its
own beast, but I think it has done, I
:
00:59:30,895 --> 00:59:33,775
mean, but I'm put, I'm painting a bad
picture 'cause there are some really
:
00:59:33,775 --> 00:59:36,715
good trainers on there as well that
do, are doing some amazing stuff.
:
00:59:37,045 --> 00:59:37,585
It's just
:
00:59:37,706 --> 00:59:38,266
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
definitely.
:
00:59:38,425 --> 00:59:41,965
Victoria Stilwell: seems like
the bad stuff shouts louder
:
00:59:42,715 --> 00:59:44,995
the good stuff in everything.
:
00:59:45,591 --> 00:59:46,791
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Yeah, with everything, yeah.
:
00:59:46,791 --> 00:59:51,621
You're always gonna get someone like
moaning about the bad stuff rather than
:
00:59:52,071 --> 00:59:53,691
just telling everyone about the good.
:
00:59:54,001 --> 00:59:57,211
We're gonna start wrapping up, spend the
last couple of minutes, but you've worked
:
00:59:57,211 --> 00:59:59,701
with thousands of dogs and guardians.
:
00:59:59,731 --> 01:00:03,721
Is there a particular reactivity case
or moment that's stayed with you that's
:
01:00:03,721 --> 01:00:06,181
really embodied the heart of your work?
:
01:00:07,715 --> 01:00:10,085
Victoria Stilwell: There is so many.
:
01:00:10,291 --> 01:00:10,711
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: loud.
:
01:00:10,861 --> 01:00:11,251
Yeah.
:
01:00:11,645 --> 01:00:12,305
Victoria Stilwell: There's loads.
:
01:00:12,305 --> 01:00:15,155
I think one of the, yeah,
it was a German Shepherd.
:
01:00:15,155 --> 01:00:19,915
I was working with Phoenix and
she made, I mean, it just was
:
01:00:19,915 --> 01:00:21,385
like night and day with her.
:
01:00:21,835 --> 01:00:24,895
But, you know, then I was
still doing some DSCC with her.
:
01:00:25,315 --> 01:00:30,475
But was when I was beginning to
like transition into more of the,
:
01:00:30,650 --> 01:00:33,665
the more of my AZA day approach.
:
01:00:34,145 --> 01:00:39,276
So but then where I did do the AZA
Day approach more is with a dog
:
01:00:39,276 --> 01:00:41,136
that was very reactive to a baby.
:
01:00:41,526 --> 01:00:47,666
And every single time the baby was picked
up, especially, or the, and that I would
:
01:00:47,666 --> 01:00:49,916
say was life changing for those people.
:
01:00:49,916 --> 01:00:52,826
And there's been so many dogs in cars.
:
01:00:53,126 --> 01:00:56,366
Yeah, I can't really, I
can't really pick one.
:
01:00:56,756 --> 01:01:00,506
There's a a, 'cause we have a lot
of pit bulls here and there's a pit
:
01:01:00,506 --> 01:01:04,736
bull that I've been working with,
was very reactive towards other dogs.
:
01:01:05,786 --> 01:01:08,726
It's beautiful to see how
comfortable she is now.
:
01:01:10,766 --> 01:01:14,906
So, and a lot of people say, oh, this
stuff doesn't work on the larger dogs.
:
01:01:15,206 --> 01:01:19,226
We work with a lot of larger dogs
here because we have pitties,
:
01:01:19,226 --> 01:01:20,636
we have braces, we have canna.
:
01:01:20,636 --> 01:01:23,516
Corso, we have the whole, I mean,
I know you have Canac Corso in
:
01:01:23,516 --> 01:01:27,026
the uk we have a lot of these
larger, massive type dogs as well.
:
01:01:27,086 --> 01:01:28,316
Excel bullies, you name it.
:
01:01:28,926 --> 01:01:29,287
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Yeah,
:
01:01:29,366 --> 01:01:32,546
Victoria Stilwell: so if it
works on them, it can on anything
:
01:01:33,636 --> 01:01:34,116
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
that's it.
:
01:01:34,777 --> 01:01:38,917
Victoria, if a guardian is listing
right now and they feel lost,
:
01:01:38,917 --> 01:01:43,236
embarrassed, overwhelmed, what would
you want to say directly to them?
:
01:01:44,371 --> 01:01:50,156
Victoria Stilwell: I wanna say
we've all been there, we understand.
:
01:01:51,146 --> 01:01:57,356
There is definitely things that you
can do to help you and your dog.
:
01:01:58,586 --> 01:02:04,106
There are great trainers out there
that can make a huge difference in your
:
01:02:04,106 --> 01:02:05,936
lives, and don't be afraid to reach out.
:
01:02:07,982 --> 01:02:10,057
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
I love that, Victoria, for those
:
01:02:10,057 --> 01:02:15,116
wanting to dive deeper into your
reactivity zones approach, RZA.
:
01:02:15,356 --> 01:02:16,856
Where can they learn more please?
:
01:02:17,641 --> 01:02:19,801
Victoria Stilwell: So we
have for Guardians, we have
:
01:02:19,801 --> 01:02:21,931
a course@positively.com.
:
01:02:21,991 --> 01:02:24,421
It's called Help Stop Reactivity.
:
01:02:25,325 --> 01:02:26,316
they can take that course.
:
01:02:26,316 --> 01:02:29,046
It's a really fun, it's really
entertaining and you'll learn
:
01:02:29,046 --> 01:02:31,216
a lot for professionals.
:
01:02:31,216 --> 01:02:34,845
We have the Reactivity for dog
training and behaviour Professionals
:
01:02:34,845 --> 01:02:39,015
course, and that's at dta.com,
:
01:02:39,015 --> 01:02:40,455
the Victoria Stilwell Academy.
:
01:02:41,265 --> 01:02:47,175
and there that is about a 10 to 12
hour course where we go, really, we
:
01:02:47,175 --> 01:02:50,986
use Help Stop Reactivity, but then
there's the professional part of
:
01:02:50,986 --> 01:02:55,695
each lesson, and we also talk a lot
about the business of reactivity.
:
01:02:56,005 --> 01:02:58,975
And so it's a really comprehensive
course for professionals.
:
01:02:59,365 --> 01:03:05,725
And we're also bringing out a sort of an
in, it's online, but it's an in person.
:
01:03:06,890 --> 01:03:09,770
Masterclass, four reactive cases.
:
01:03:09,770 --> 01:03:15,060
So you bring your reactivity cases
and discuss it with other trainers
:
01:03:15,060 --> 01:03:19,320
and with our faculty and you know,
you take videos and everything
:
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,110
and so it's a six week course.
:
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,181
Yeah, that's and online in person.
:
01:03:25,011 --> 01:03:25,301
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Nice.
:
01:03:25,796 --> 01:03:29,176
I'm gonna put all those details
and links in the show notes.
:
01:03:29,536 --> 01:03:33,286
Victoria Stilwell, thank you
so much for joining me on the
:
01:03:33,286 --> 01:03:35,896
Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy.
:
01:03:35,896 --> 01:03:38,296
I've absolutely loved
chatting with you today.
:
01:03:39,020 --> 01:03:39,921
Victoria Stilwell: Thank you, Nathan.
:
01:03:39,921 --> 01:03:43,821
You're a great interviewer and
I really appreciate you having
:
01:03:43,876 --> 01:03:44,026
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy: Oh,
:
01:03:44,211 --> 01:03:44,871
Victoria Stilwell: Thank you.
:
01:03:45,196 --> 01:03:46,696
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
oh, thank you so much.
:
01:03:47,446 --> 01:03:48,076
Thank you.
:
01:03:49,100 --> 01:03:49,461
Victoria Stilwell: Bye.
:
01:03:52,902 --> 01:03:55,332
The Yappy Hour With Nathan Dunleavy:
Before we wrap up, here are a few
:
01:03:55,332 --> 01:04:00,772
key takeaways from my incredible
conversation with Victoria Stilwell.
:
01:04:01,557 --> 01:04:05,607
Number one, reactivity isn't disobedience.
:
01:04:05,817 --> 01:04:07,077
It's distress.
:
01:04:07,377 --> 01:04:09,596
Your dog isn't giving you a hard time.
:
01:04:09,866 --> 01:04:11,427
They're having a hard time.
:
01:04:11,907 --> 01:04:18,537
Number two, the reactivity zones approach
is built on safety, trust, and choice.
:
01:04:18,957 --> 01:04:23,096
We support dogs in the comfort
and tolerance zones so they
:
01:04:23,096 --> 01:04:25,167
can learn without overwhelm.
:
01:04:25,627 --> 01:04:29,557
Number three, real life
requires flexibility.
:
01:04:29,707 --> 01:04:36,037
Humane tools, emergency utahans,
block in and read in subtle signals.
:
01:04:36,217 --> 01:04:39,217
Help us keep reactive
dogs feeling protected.
:
01:04:39,727 --> 01:04:44,737
Number four, progress is
rarely linear, and that's okay.
:
01:04:45,366 --> 01:04:48,727
Consistency and compassion go
much further than perfection.
:
01:04:50,592 --> 01:04:53,052
Number five, you are not failing.
:
01:04:53,112 --> 01:04:55,721
You are learning alongside your dog.
:
01:04:56,232 --> 01:05:01,122
Supporting a reactive dog is
emotional work and you deserve
:
01:05:01,122 --> 01:05:03,312
support just as much as they do.
:
01:05:04,032 --> 01:05:07,272
A huge thank you to
Victoria for sharing how.
:
01:05:08,212 --> 01:05:11,752
Her heart and her groundbreaking
approach of us today.
:
01:05:12,232 --> 01:05:16,162
If you enjoy today's episode,
please consider leaving us with you.
:
01:05:16,462 --> 01:05:20,182
Share it with a fellow dog
parent, and subscribe so you
:
01:05:20,182 --> 01:05:22,282
don't miss future episodes.
:
01:05:22,761 --> 01:05:25,822
This has been The Yappy
Hour, powered by Yappy.
:
01:05:27,082 --> 01:05:28,342
I'll see you next time.
