Shownotes
In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary, sits down with Adam McCoy, VP of HR at DMC Global Inc., to discuss what AI really means for HR leaders navigating economic pressure, talent shifts, and rising expectations to do more without adding headcount.
Adam explains why he is not asking for more HR headcount and how AI is changing the way teams prioritize, execute, and deliver value. From building leadership training with AI to rethinking day-to-day workflows, he shares practical examples of working smarter without sacrificing quality.
The conversation also explores how AI is reshaping talent acquisition on both sides of the hiring process. As candidates and employers both use AI tools, Adam breaks down the tension between efficiency, bias risk, legality, and candidate experience. He argues that AI fluency is quickly becoming a baseline expectation across roles.
They discussed governance and guardrails. Ignoring AI is reckless. Banning it is unrealistic. HR must help define responsible use, protect data, and build literacy across the organization.
The episode closes with a clear message: you won’t be replaced by AI, but you might be replaced by someone who knows how to use it.
Topics Discussed:
- Why many CHROs are prioritizing productivity over headcount expansion
- Using AI to build leadership training and accelerate HR execution
- The evolving AI arms race in talent acquisition
- Balancing automation, bias, and legal risk in AI-powered hiring
- How AI fluency is becoming a baseline job requirement
- The role of HR in enterprise AI governance and data guardrails
- Why ignoring or banning AI is not a viable strategy
- Reskilling inside the HR function to stay relevant
- Maintaining trust and employee experience in an AI-enabled workplace
- Why adaptability, not fear, is the real competitive advantage
If you are an HR leader navigating AI adoption, rethinking your talent strategy, or wondering how to stay relevant in a rapidly shifting workplace, this episode offers a grounded and candid look at what it takes to lead through the shift.
Additional Resources:
Transcripts
I heard this at a recent event that you're not gonna be replaced
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by AI, you're gonna be replaced by
someone who knows how to use AI.
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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep
telling us that it's all over.
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For HR, the age of AI is upon
us, and that means HR should
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be prepared to be decimated.
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We reject that message.
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The future of HR won't be handed to us.
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Instead, it'll be defined by those
ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.
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Future Proof HR invites these builders to
share what they're trying, how it's going,
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what they've learned, and what's next.
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We are committed to arming HR
with the AI insights to not
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just survive, but to thrive.
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Welcome to Future-Proof HR Podcast
, where we explore how forward-thinking
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HR leaders are preparing for disruption
and redefining what it means to
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lead people in a changing world.
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Today's guest is Adam McCoy,
VP of HR at DMC Global, Inc.
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A 20 plus year global HR leader
across manufacturing, supply chain,
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financial services, aviation, and tech.
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Adam focuses on aligning HR strategy
to business imperatives while
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elevating employee experience.
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He also serves as Colorado s
shrm state director, where he
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recently helped convene the state's
first AI focused HR conference.
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So a lot for us to talk about.
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Adam, welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Great, great to be here.
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Excited for the conversation.
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Speaker: So I'd love to talk about AI,
but before that, I wanna, play back
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a quote that you told me, you told me
last time we chatted, which is that,
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you're not running into the CEO's
office anytime soon asking for a lot
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of headcount within the HR function,
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Speaker 2: right?
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Speaker: with or without
a recession on deck.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker: Tell me more about that.
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Speaker 2: I think that, with
just the state of you know, you're
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right, the economy set aside.
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I think that we're in a place where there
are so many exceptional tools coming out
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every single day that we actually are able
to find ways to work smarter, to work.
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I think frankly to in many ways end
up with a better product, and not
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need necessarily all of the headcount
that it might have taken historically.
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When you think about developing something
simple like a job description or a
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comp plan or a PowerPoint deck, those
things would've taken a lot of time.
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And when you're a leader, you
probably want to save your
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time for what's most valuable.
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And perhaps you need to be maybe in the
approval process, but maybe you wouldn't
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have spent a lot of time designing it.
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Well now, everyone can do it.
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those folks of course, that
stay AI literate, right?
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And I think that's, that's the imperative.
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Speaker: okay.
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So I said we're not gonna talk about
AI with this question, but actually,
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so it sounds like that is like
really like what's on your mind?
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In addition, I don't know, there's
a kind of uncertainty, arguably
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in the macroeconomic situation.
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Speaker 2: I think that's more to it.
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I think that's definitely right and
certainly in our industry, in some
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of the industries that our companies
and my company's involved with
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are experiencing some volatility.
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I mean, I think like a lot of companies
are right, and I also don't know that
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it makes a lot of sense to go out
recruiting a bunch of folks at the moment.
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when the whole sort of larger economic
climate is a little bit unsettled, right?
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So I think it is about figuring out
what you can do, with what you have.
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And how do we challenge and keep
our staff ahead to meet this demand?
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But you're right, I wouldn't be
going into the corner office, as to
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ask for a significant incremental
headcount unless it was something
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project based or something.
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But otherwise, I don't think based on
economics, based on industry, I think
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there's a number of things that cause
that conversation to be where it's at.
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Speaker: You're very engaged
in the local HR community.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker: And you're talking to
your fellow CHROs all the time.
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What are the themes that have
emerged in 2025, much more so
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than in years past for you?
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Speaker 2: I think people used to feel
like aI was something fairly nebulous.
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Yes, we need to do AI
because we need to do AI.
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Because of course, why
wouldn't we wanna do AI?
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Because everyone's talking about AI
and it's on the front page of every
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newspaper and blah, blah, blah.
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But I think that for me, some of
the learnings that I've had from
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a couple of groups is some of the
things that we think about as probably
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most capable in an AI setting.
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What are some of the things I just
said, like in recruiting or in
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the creation of basic policies and
communications and those things, and sure.
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But I'm also, I was really in excited
and intrigued to hear about what
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someone larger companies are up to with
how they're using AI to really help
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streamline their employee experience.
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In a couple cases, their
customer experience.
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And while I suppose one could
wonder about all of the kinda
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the tentacles of those actions.
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I think that
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it feels almost cliche, I
suppose, but almost limitless.
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Like where we can go, we just need
to make sure we can as they say,
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keep the robots from rising up.
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But I feel like most HR leaders are
having some pretty intense conversations
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internally, whether they own the AI
strategy or not, but certainly how it
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impacts employees, companies that aren't
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taking a hard look at it, I
think are missing the boat.
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There's leakage, right?
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They may think, oh, we
don't use AI, whatever.
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But they are.
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And I think that's what a lot of CHROs are
trying to not only figure out the what,
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the why, the how and, some companies are
definitely farther along than others.
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Speaker: So you said something
interesting there, which is that
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depending on the company, you might
have a different role in HR with
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relation to how the organization
will proceed forward, with ai.
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Tell me more about that.
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And also if you think in your view, like
an ideal role that the HR department
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plays in a movement of the entire
organization towards being, let's say,
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more AI fluent native adoptive et cetera.
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Speaker 2: I think that some organizations
probably will rely on their it functions
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perhaps to set this, to either set
the strategy or to at least set the
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framework, put the guardrails up.
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And I think that's most companies are
grappling with what does that mean for us?
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But I think for HR, to me, the things
that hit my mind are how do I ensure
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the employees know what they should
be using, how to use it, right?
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Because I think that there's so
many tools that are out there that
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are just deployed as part of our
operating systems these days, right?
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Yeah.
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That people could just go to the races and
how can I help make sure not only we're
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using it for the right things, but also
that they're having a good experience too.
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And so I think about things like
training, I think about things
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like partnering with the business.
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So I even understand what's the
business hoping to do with AI?
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How can I support that?
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Because obviously as we recruit and
people turn over, how do I help make
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sure that the recruiting strategy
meets their needs to around AI?
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I think HR will certainly play a
significant role in the continued
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evolution of AI in the workplace.
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Speaker: Absolutely.
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So there's like the training and
also I around both the foundational
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skills, let's call it, around
how to engage with these tools.
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'cause it's a generational shift, right?
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But then on top of that, the specific
tools that an organization is using.
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Ensuring that you're partnering with
the business to ensure there's a
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good experience and outcomes there.
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But then also you're talking about how
it maps into the recruiting funnel.
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Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker: Because that's another
interesting shift, right?
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I feel like it's commonly told that
if you're just generally looking
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for a job as a knowledge worker, go
sharpen your AI skills somehow and
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that should like somehow help you.
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From a recruiting perspective, do
you think that's starting to permeate
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into the job descriptions or just the
requirements right across the board
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and across industries and across
roles as being relevant and useful.
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Speaker 2: I think it is definitely
starting to permeate across many
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facets of the recruiting experience.
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The whole talent acquisition process.
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I think that certainly as a recruiter,
using these tools to not only help prepare
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the most dynamic posting, the phraseology
that will get people's attention.
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And I think that there's so much
to consume out there, right?
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So how do we use the tool to
help us cut through the noise?
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Sure.
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That's one thing.
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And I think will have a long shelf life.
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But I also feel like in
talking with again, some other
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my recruiting colleagues.
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I think there's maybe some growing
concern because the applicant pool
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has become so sharp as you said.
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People are now using these tools
exceptionally well, frankly.
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And when I think about HR's role to help
maybe screen through candidates to hand
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off a slate of candidates, we think is
the best right to the hiring authority.
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How does that change?
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I have probably friends in my network
that are probably embellishing, right?
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Their skillset, right?
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Because the tools lets them
let them do that so they fit
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through the funnel, right?
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And I guess kudos for
using technology, right?
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But I wonder about you can almost
start to see it in some resumes.
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Like when you like really take a close
look like the phraseology, It almost is
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I dunno, my grammar school teacher would
probably say I wasn't the best grammarian.
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But you can see in some language like
wow, that's fascinating word choice.
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And that makes me wonder
what was behind that, right?
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I think something like as you
said, like the recruiting process
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is the tip of the spear, right?
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And that's one way that we as HR
professionals are gonna help build
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more successful businesses, right?
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Is we want to attract and retain the
brightest and most capable talent.
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And if this can help us do that's great.
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I hope that people are
using it judiciously.
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Speaker: Yeah.
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So you went in a very
fascinating direction.
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Which I wanna come back to in one second.
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But I'm curious first, from the
approach of the job description itself
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Is a line item like AI fluent or like
able to, whether in marketing or in
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sales or in operations or HR, whatever
the function across every function.
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Are you starting to see the business
demand, hey, some kind of AI literacy
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or fluency or showing that you've
done a project or done something?
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And is that permeating kind of the
requirements of like more and more roles.
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That's really I want to get at
that first before we come to the
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actual recruitment side of it.
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'Cause from the talent acquisition
team's perspective, there's a fascinating
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story you're starting to get into there.
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But if we think all jobs are
shifting, are we starting to see that?
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Because the new jobs that are going
out there are starting to evolve
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to need AI to just get a new job?
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Speaker 2: I think that's definitely true.
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I've seen it certainly in more and
more job descriptions be whether
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it makes the final job description.
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It's certainly a requirement in
talking to a hiring authority.
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they may use a specific type of
tool or a specific platform that
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they wanna make sure you have
advanced experience in Copilot Pro
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or ChatGPT, version X, XX, right?
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Not only fluency in the tool, but
also to your point, have you done
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advanced modeling, doing, using this
kind of tool for this kind of outcome?
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And I think that will
continue to be out there.
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And, as I think about it from a
candidate perspective, and frankly
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just as an employee, I think
that scares some people, right?
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and.
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I think that again, it's cliche
that people say oh, I have
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to adapt, I have to change.
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it's real.
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Yeah.
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I think that's absolutely true.
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But yes, I think to spin around
to the top, I do see it continuing
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to permeate job requirements.
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and I expect we will be soon
getting to a place where you'll
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have to demonstrate your fluency.
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Speaker: And to that point
it's only escalating, right?
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Yeah.
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So it's just hey, you can have a
one minute conversation about AI,
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'cause you used it for a recipe.
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Okay, great.
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That means that you have some basic
mindset towards agility or like
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curiosity that we've established.
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Okay, great.
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Let's move you forward.
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But maybe, depending on the job
and the industry and the function.
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It'll be much more stringent, right?
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show me how or there's like a take
home project for certain roles.
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It's literally leveraging certain like AI.
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So yeah, I can see that escalating.
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So I'd love to circle back to
the really important point that
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you made, which is, I think of it
almost there's like a war going on.
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So let's go cliche, like
the talent war always.
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Sure.
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And what's interesting at this point
is the usual profiteers in war are
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selling to both sides in this case.
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So the candidates are yeah, there's
tools out there for candidates,
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so I quickly do all types of crazy
stuff to just get in the door.
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Speaker 2: Yep.
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Speaker: And they're fighting
AI bots and all types of things
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that recruiting teams are putting
in place to get more efficient.
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And you're like getting to this whole
new level of the shell game, right?
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If you want to keep using
this war metaphor, but either
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way it's certainly changing.
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As you're like working with a recruiting
team, how do you, think about the
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guidelines or you mentioned in some
cases maybe things might be going
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overboard on either side, right?
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Yeah.
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How do you think about the guidelines
that you said, like even like with
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your own recruiting practices, right?
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Because there's probably a tool that
you can take to eliminate any human
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interaction through the entire offer.
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That's right.
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Except all the way to offer,
accept process if you wanted to.
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Speaker 2: Yep.
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Speaker: We're not exactly
doing that, but yeah.
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Have you thought about the
guidelines or the guardrails?
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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and I think the crazy part I would say is
that just your comment, four seconds ago.
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One of these, CHROs that was
in the luncheon I was at just
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recently here, they are doing that.
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The people apply, through their ATS right?
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And the AI evaluates their
candidacy, flips them back,
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beautifully written responses.
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It feels absolutely human through to phone
screen that actually it is done by AI.
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It sounds perfectly human.
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It helps craft the offer and essentially
based on all of those things, it makes a
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decision and passes that to a recruiter
who actually then reviews everything and
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makes sure that this seems reasonable.
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That feels what a marvel
of efficiency, right?
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But I think the other thing that HR
folks are struggling with and I think
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our friends in the legal department
are struggling with are we've trained
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people over the years, hiring managers
and HR professionals to keep the
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hiring process as unbiased as possible.
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Thinking about discriminatory factors.
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Those kinds of things that can creep in.
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And we do our best to guard against that.
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How do we know that process that I just
described was on guard against that?
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And I'm sure someone's gonna say
to me, Adam, you teach the machine.
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I'm okay, I get that.
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That makes sense.
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But as humans evolve, I don't know if
it's quite that easy for it to always
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be making the best choice.
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And so I worry about some of
the screening tools that I know.
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So a lot of the recruiters rely on now.
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Because I think, again, the state
of the economy, there's a lot of
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people in the job market, right?
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And so I don't fal a recruiter
for using these tools they have
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to just get their job done, right?
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But I think it's making sure that we have
calibrated these tools to do what we need
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them to do in a set aside, the legality.
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'Cause I know that's shifting around
on a lot of these kinds of things.
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But just what we should stand for, right?
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As HR professionals.
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And so I think that's definitely a
ongoing conversation among HR leaders
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is do we feel confident in these tools?
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I think people are feeling more
confident as we, as the tools evolve.
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But I don't know that I'm ready to have
that whole process be managed by AI.
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I think there are components
of it that can and should be.
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But I think it's the TA process
that HR professionals think
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about when they think of AI.
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I think for the most part, right?
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Because there's other things,
having it handle employee
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relations, those kinds of things.
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It's gonna be incredibly difficult
for it to figure that out.
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But it's repetitive.
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The TA process is repetitive, right?
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Speaker: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: It's a great use case, right?
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I think
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Speaker: Combine that with immense amount
of volume and employer bargaining power
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at the moment with the labor market.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker: And it's just like
this formula to let's just say
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push the law to catch up, right?
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That's right.
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To efficiency.
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Yeah, I'd like to think that the
other kind of downstream impact of
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this is imagine a market where it
is a little bit more even, right?
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Like for headed back to in and in
certain sectors, 2022 or 2021, 23,.
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Where it's very tight.
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Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker: Think about the candidate
experience and for top talent.
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That just feels I don't
wanna deal with this bot or
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker: people leaving, getting
outta these funnels because they just
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feel like it's disusing them of their
humanity and they can do better.
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That's a potential downstream
effect I can see as well.
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And it seems like the industries
where this kind of mass automation
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and talent acquisition is most used
is where that balance is completely
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shifted in favor of the employer.
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Speaker 2: Right?
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Speaker: And there's let's
just go as far as we can.
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But the moment, I guess
markets are brutal, right?
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The moment you're not able to successfully
get a high conversion rate of talent,
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there's gonna be pushback on that.
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And that's even separate from
the both the ethical and legal
340
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constraints that you mentioned.
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Let's talk also about some
other, use cases, right?
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Everyone has different ways that
they've come at AI use cases like
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both personally and maybe the
first time in the work world.
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Tell me about a little bit about yours.
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Like how did you, what was the
first you found it adding value
346
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in one of your like workflows?
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Speaker 2: One of the things
that I've used it for recently,
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and did a fairly used it.
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I think fairly successfully, was the
creation of a pretty comprehensive
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training curriculum for what I might
call kind of leadership 101, right?
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So for folks that are new to leadership,
the foundations of why do you need to be
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a leader all the way through to how do
you have a difficult conversation, right?
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And a colleague of mine in my
SHRM network here in Colorado
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also was talking with me about how
she had done something like this.
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And so I think I had to
learn a little bit, right?
356
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Of I wanna make sure I'm using
the right cues right or the
357
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right prompts as they say, right?
358
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I want you to build this with this long,
with three exercises, two handouts,
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a graphic and a whatever, right?
360
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And I was amazed at generally the output.
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And through to the speaker's notes,
it helped me actually focus more
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on the conversations in the room.
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Which I feel like that's
where I'm adding the value.
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Putting the words on a screen,
it's important, 'cause of
365
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course they're staring at it.
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We're all staring at it.
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But the fact that I could focus
and hear and really listen, right?
368
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Because I had the notes
right in front of me.
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I didn't have to worry about losing
my place, those kinds of things.
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If I was listening intently to the
room and come back to the curriculum.
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But I thought it was successful.
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It's something that I've talked
to a few of my peers about.
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And we've been kinda exchanging
some experiences and what those
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products actually looked like.
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Oh, what tool did you do yours in yours?
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Yours has some cool whatever, right?
377
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And
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Speaker: yeah.
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Speaker 2: But at the end of the
day, getting back to kinda your
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top question, it saved me time.
381
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And in this era of I think not
resources just everywhere, it
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served its purpose very well.
383
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I was very pleased.
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I think the attendees were
pleased and I would do it again.
385
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This has been a fantastic
conversation so far.
386
00:20:00,128 --> 00:20:02,918
If you haven't already done so,
make sure to join our community.
387
00:20:03,158 --> 00:20:05,828
We are building a network of the
most forward-thinking, HR and
388
00:20:05,828 --> 00:20:09,008
people, operational professionals
who are defining the future.
389
00:20:09,488 --> 00:20:12,098
I will personally be sharing
news and ideas around how we
390
00:20:12,098 --> 00:20:14,108
can all thrive in the age of ai.
391
00:20:14,468 --> 00:20:17,453
You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary
392
00:20:17,883 --> 00:20:18,493
community.
393
00:20:19,118 --> 00:20:19,958
Now back to the show.
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Speaker: So if you did not have
access to these tools, like if
395
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you're doing this in we were in 2021,
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Speaker 2: yep.
397
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Speaker: would it have been
that you just wouldn't have
398
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done the training to begin with?
399
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Or you would've had the same amount of
time to do the training, but then you
400
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would've gotten feeling way less confident
and prepared and probably not as great
401
00:20:37,798 --> 00:20:39,928
of an outcome or another way to look at.
402
00:20:40,408 --> 00:20:45,928
Would you actually have had an intern or
more access to resources back then where
403
00:20:46,078 --> 00:20:49,768
they would've actually, you would've gone
back and forth with them to get it done?
404
00:20:50,008 --> 00:20:51,658
Speaker 2: I think I would've
been less likely to commit
405
00:20:51,658 --> 00:20:53,068
to the training number one.
406
00:20:53,648 --> 00:20:54,638
Because
407
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just even the process of coming
up with the words that you would
408
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ordinarily used in 2019 or 2020, right?
409
00:21:03,083 --> 00:21:03,413
Speaker: Yeah.
410
00:21:03,683 --> 00:21:04,823
Speaker 2: It's an art, right?
411
00:21:04,873 --> 00:21:06,883
And obviously the AI is
helping us with that art.
412
00:21:06,883 --> 00:21:08,533
It's not a replacement, but it's a helper.
413
00:21:08,983 --> 00:21:15,168
And if I had not had that, I would
not have been as able to become as
414
00:21:15,168 --> 00:21:19,128
prepared as I was in the timeline
I needed to become as prepared in.
415
00:21:19,178 --> 00:21:22,478
So the alternative would've
been two of them in my mind.
416
00:21:22,478 --> 00:21:24,338
I did, either we didn't do
the training or we hired a
417
00:21:24,338 --> 00:21:26,288
consultant to come in and do it.
418
00:21:26,558 --> 00:21:28,238
And that has its own pluses and minuses.
419
00:21:28,238 --> 00:21:29,108
Of course, both of them.
420
00:21:29,208 --> 00:21:32,988
And we've gone down those roads before
we all of us have in HR, I'm sure.
421
00:21:33,903 --> 00:21:36,183
But the fact that we can speak the
language of the business where we're
422
00:21:36,183 --> 00:21:38,743
in, we don't have to, a consultant
doesn't have to get up to speed,
423
00:21:38,743 --> 00:21:38,923
Speaker: Yeah.
424
00:21:39,103 --> 00:21:42,603
Speaker 2: there's just a lot
that I think can make this quite
425
00:21:42,603 --> 00:21:43,743
a story at the end of the day.
426
00:21:44,733 --> 00:21:45,393
Speaker: Absolutely.
427
00:21:45,483 --> 00:21:46,413
Thanks for going through that.
428
00:21:46,413 --> 00:21:51,653
And then another kind of topic I wanted
to get your thoughts on was just enabling
429
00:21:51,653 --> 00:21:53,573
the enterprise more broadly, right?
430
00:21:53,573 --> 00:21:54,743
So with AI.
431
00:21:55,093 --> 00:21:56,953
Have you guys gone like wall to wall?
432
00:21:56,953 --> 00:22:01,983
Everyone, every employee has access
to some kind of LLM and go in.
433
00:22:01,983 --> 00:22:03,593
And I'm just curious
like where you guys are.
434
00:22:03,623 --> 00:22:06,713
You are in enabling the entire
organization and how that
435
00:22:06,713 --> 00:22:07,673
process has been working.
436
00:22:08,223 --> 00:22:10,323
Speaker 2: We are in
the midst, I would say.
437
00:22:10,323 --> 00:22:16,473
So there are a couple of tools that are
currently out there and I think because
438
00:22:16,473 --> 00:22:20,163
we've had some experience with them now,
over time, I think we will be like a lot
439
00:22:20,163 --> 00:22:24,243
of organizations that I've heard from are
probably gonna be tailoring to probably
440
00:22:24,243 --> 00:22:27,153
one or two choices for the general.
441
00:22:27,283 --> 00:22:31,743
So for the wider employee population,
there could be scenarios where say
442
00:22:31,743 --> 00:22:37,363
in finance or actuarial needs where
an even more powerful, more advanced
443
00:22:37,363 --> 00:22:38,713
tool might be needed and that's great.
444
00:22:39,053 --> 00:22:44,253
I think for the vast majority of
employees, we will be for example,
445
00:22:44,253 --> 00:22:49,493
rolling out a policy that guides
the use, the responsible use of
446
00:22:49,723 --> 00:22:53,803
AI technology and what kind of
technology we will want people to use.
447
00:22:53,803 --> 00:22:56,613
Because I worry the companies
that haven't addressed that.
448
00:22:57,243 --> 00:22:57,543
Speaker: Yeah,
449
00:22:57,593 --> 00:22:59,453
Speaker 2: There's data
being leaked, right?
450
00:22:59,453 --> 00:23:03,263
And they're either, they're not aware
or they don't wanna deal with it.
451
00:23:03,503 --> 00:23:05,813
Or they think it's insignificant.
452
00:23:06,383 --> 00:23:09,193
And I that's pretty important to me.
453
00:23:09,443 --> 00:23:14,043
I think that as HR professionals, someone
could say, that's it securities issue.
454
00:23:14,093 --> 00:23:15,623
That's the general counsel's issue.
455
00:23:15,663 --> 00:23:16,653
I don't see it that way.
456
00:23:16,653 --> 00:23:22,533
I think that this is a process where it's
gonna take all of us to help shape the
457
00:23:22,533 --> 00:23:24,873
use of technology in our own environments.
458
00:23:24,873 --> 00:23:27,018
And I think that's a
critical role for HR to play.
459
00:23:28,128 --> 00:23:28,728
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
460
00:23:28,728 --> 00:23:33,068
And it should be once you align on that,
it should be a part of the training
461
00:23:33,068 --> 00:23:35,048
for every new employee that comes in.
462
00:23:35,048 --> 00:23:37,898
So you're maintaining that
standard once you created it and.
463
00:23:38,498 --> 00:23:40,058
Who's gonna take that on, But Right.
464
00:23:40,058 --> 00:23:42,248
But the HR team and to
ensure that it's ongoing.
465
00:23:42,678 --> 00:23:46,498
You created this floor around of
understanding around like data use.
466
00:23:46,498 --> 00:23:50,038
Like in fact, that's like the most basic
thing I feel like when I hear HR leaders
467
00:23:50,098 --> 00:23:53,493
say like you have folks who are just
trying to look away and say, this is not.
468
00:23:54,228 --> 00:23:55,978
For me, or maybe for other companies.
469
00:23:55,978 --> 00:23:56,968
It doesn't matter in my industry.
470
00:23:56,968 --> 00:24:00,428
But what are the chances that
some employee somewhere when the
471
00:24:00,428 --> 00:24:05,478
organization isn't using, some sort
of AI tool for some part of their
472
00:24:05,628 --> 00:24:09,078
process, it's like almost nil for
almost every company at this point.
473
00:24:09,528 --> 00:24:12,973
And so at the very least, you
need to have something to address
474
00:24:12,973 --> 00:24:14,163
how we are gonna allow it.
475
00:24:14,343 --> 00:24:17,493
Even if what you're saying is, yeah,
we don't care about AI and we don't
476
00:24:17,688 --> 00:24:20,028
want any adoption and don't use it.
477
00:24:20,028 --> 00:24:22,138
Or you're not allowed to use it.
478
00:24:22,138 --> 00:24:25,338
And if you do it, it's it's
of your own kind of volition.
479
00:24:25,338 --> 00:24:26,188
But we will...
480
00:24:26,238 --> 00:24:29,248
I dunno, we'll sue you if you
take company data off offline.
481
00:24:29,248 --> 00:24:31,258
But you gotta address it in
some kind of format, right?
482
00:24:31,558 --> 00:24:31,798
Speaker 2: Right.
483
00:24:31,798 --> 00:24:34,618
I think that either of those
scenarios, I think are.
484
00:24:35,623 --> 00:24:37,543
Not going to be the
winning scenario, right?
485
00:24:37,543 --> 00:24:38,443
We're just gonna ignore it.
486
00:24:38,443 --> 00:24:39,493
We're gonna pretend it's not happening.
487
00:24:39,493 --> 00:24:41,143
that's just reckless.
488
00:24:41,143 --> 00:24:41,203
Yeah.
489
00:24:41,603 --> 00:24:43,433
And I think we're gonna forbid it.
490
00:24:43,623 --> 00:24:46,743
I think is also not contemporary, right?
491
00:24:46,773 --> 00:24:47,763
This tool is here.
492
00:24:47,763 --> 00:24:50,133
It's impacting every port of your life.
493
00:24:50,183 --> 00:24:54,743
You go onto Amazon, it's making AI
recommendations on that new pair of
494
00:24:54,743 --> 00:24:56,713
shoes that it thinks you should get.
495
00:24:56,763 --> 00:25:01,443
I think it really is about helping think
through what are the guardrails, right?
496
00:25:01,443 --> 00:25:05,163
Because I, I believe in the
goodness of people, right?
497
00:25:05,163 --> 00:25:10,173
And I'm sure that employee that
wanted to do an analysis of some
498
00:25:11,283 --> 00:25:13,233
sales forecast or something.
499
00:25:13,233 --> 00:25:13,473
More data.
500
00:25:13,473 --> 00:25:13,773
Speaker: Yeah.
501
00:25:13,953 --> 00:25:14,163
Yeah.
502
00:25:14,163 --> 00:25:17,073
Speaker 2: They threw it into their
tool and it came back beautifully.
503
00:25:17,193 --> 00:25:20,013
They got what they wanted, but that's now.
504
00:25:20,823 --> 00:25:21,213
Speaker: Yeah.
505
00:25:21,413 --> 00:25:22,493
Speaker 2: So I worry about that.
506
00:25:22,493 --> 00:25:22,823
Yeah.
507
00:25:23,283 --> 00:25:25,053
But organizations are
tackling it and we are too.
508
00:25:26,433 --> 00:25:26,523
Speaker: Yeah.
509
00:25:26,713 --> 00:25:28,753
Let's talk some more about
talent acquisition again.
510
00:25:28,803 --> 00:25:32,553
One nuance is about like field roles
and manufacturing roles, right?
511
00:25:32,553 --> 00:25:33,903
I know that that's like the sector.
512
00:25:34,213 --> 00:25:36,063
Like a lot of your
portfolio leans towards.
513
00:25:36,063 --> 00:25:40,303
Do you think the AI tools have
will have differing impacts in for
514
00:25:40,303 --> 00:25:44,933
different types of industries, from a
recruiting efficacy kind of standpoint.
515
00:25:44,933 --> 00:25:47,483
Or how do you think about it that
in your sector, without breaking
516
00:25:47,483 --> 00:25:50,223
trust with candidates in the
recruiting process to leverage AI?
517
00:25:51,453 --> 00:25:54,753
Speaker 2: I think that it will
vary, I think, based on sector.
518
00:25:54,753 --> 00:25:58,523
I think that some sectors, I think
that some parts of work that are gonna
519
00:25:58,523 --> 00:26:03,123
be either incredibly more manual, I
think there will be different kinds
520
00:26:03,123 --> 00:26:06,753
of requirements that will continue
to be baked in that may not lean as
521
00:26:06,753 --> 00:26:08,493
heavily towards these things, right?
522
00:26:08,553 --> 00:26:16,473
But I think that as you move along in
your career, I think that even if you
523
00:26:16,473 --> 00:26:18,303
started in a manufacturing role, right?
524
00:26:18,303 --> 00:26:21,873
Like it's going to become more and
more of a reality as time goes on.
525
00:26:21,873 --> 00:26:24,813
And even if today it's limited, perhaps.
526
00:26:25,293 --> 00:26:27,063
I think in 12 months it's
gonna look different.
527
00:26:27,093 --> 00:26:29,553
And in 12 more months it's
gonna look even more different.
528
00:26:29,653 --> 00:26:34,413
I think keeping an eye to that
candidate experience and that employee
529
00:26:34,413 --> 00:26:39,243
experience and adapting that a bit,
I think based on the environment you
530
00:26:39,243 --> 00:26:44,323
operate in, I think is, appropriate
and I think would be more smart.
531
00:26:44,413 --> 00:26:44,773
Yeah.
532
00:26:46,553 --> 00:26:49,653
Speaker: At the top we were talking about
doing more with less or just having less.
533
00:26:49,653 --> 00:26:53,443
In terms of resources, you
gotta like really clarify what
534
00:26:53,443 --> 00:26:54,613
you can and cannot work on.
535
00:26:54,613 --> 00:26:58,483
Or maybe you can do more or just as
much because of AI tools out there.
536
00:26:58,483 --> 00:27:01,673
But the reality is there's some
prioritization, mechanics, I think
537
00:27:01,673 --> 00:27:04,363
every CHRO's going through in the year.
538
00:27:04,813 --> 00:27:08,473
As you're thinking on that evolved
at all or on how you would prioritize
539
00:27:08,893 --> 00:27:15,843
just programming, just resources
like within the HR team for this era.
540
00:27:16,803 --> 00:27:17,253
Speaker 2: I think...
541
00:27:17,258 --> 00:27:20,718
Any golden rules or even spec or all
the way down to specific things that
542
00:27:20,718 --> 00:27:22,183
you feel are just relevant for you.
543
00:27:22,553 --> 00:27:28,488
I feel like it's conversations that I've
had with my team about how they use it.
544
00:27:28,488 --> 00:27:30,948
What do they need to
use it more effectively?
545
00:27:31,453 --> 00:27:36,853
The industry they're sitting in,
what do they see as the sort of next
546
00:27:37,633 --> 00:27:40,003
use case in their function of HR?
547
00:27:40,003 --> 00:27:44,323
And so I wanna be able to help,
and I think any CHRO would wanna
548
00:27:44,323 --> 00:27:46,843
be able to help bridge that right.
549
00:27:46,843 --> 00:27:51,003
And figure out, okay if even if I don't
know it which is entirely possible, right?
550
00:27:51,403 --> 00:27:52,243
Let's go find it.
551
00:27:52,273 --> 00:27:55,123
Let's go find the person that can
help us better understand this.
552
00:27:55,593 --> 00:27:58,563
I think it all does, we're working
smart, we're focusing on the
553
00:27:58,563 --> 00:27:59,973
right value added activities.
554
00:28:00,033 --> 00:28:06,273
And if it's a new module of an
existing AI tool that we need to
555
00:28:06,273 --> 00:28:11,163
consider or a bolt on to one of
our other pieces of HR technology.
556
00:28:11,733 --> 00:28:15,453
I think we have to be
open-minded to what people need.
557
00:28:15,483 --> 00:28:21,283
And I think it will be different based
on not only their role within HR, but I
558
00:28:21,283 --> 00:28:24,023
think also their acumen with the tools.
559
00:28:25,853 --> 00:28:29,453
Speaker: So now we're getting into
a little bit into this already.
560
00:28:29,503 --> 00:28:36,943
HR re-skilling or skilling and re-skilling
within the HR function and across all
561
00:28:36,943 --> 00:28:39,053
of the disciplines like within it.
562
00:28:39,053 --> 00:28:39,863
Love to get your thoughts.
563
00:28:39,863 --> 00:28:45,158
is, What's gonna be a really ascendant,
like what kind of skill sets are
564
00:28:45,488 --> 00:28:50,118
gonna be really important for a
great future proof HR department?
565
00:28:52,833 --> 00:28:55,453
Speaker 2: I think it's
going to be critically around
566
00:28:55,453 --> 00:28:56,743
these kinds of conversations.
567
00:28:56,773 --> 00:28:58,723
Being someone who continues to lean in.
568
00:28:59,033 --> 00:29:02,243
I think that it would be easy
for some people to think this
569
00:29:02,243 --> 00:29:03,773
tool is gonna take my job.
570
00:29:04,023 --> 00:29:06,983
I heard this at a recent event
that you're not gonna be replaced
571
00:29:06,983 --> 00:29:10,553
by AI, you're gonna be replaced by
someone who knows how to use AI.
572
00:29:10,623 --> 00:29:10,683
Yeah.
573
00:29:11,133 --> 00:29:15,003
I feel like helping to ensure that
574
00:29:17,193 --> 00:29:20,673
you remain literate.
575
00:29:20,728 --> 00:29:24,058
you think across the HR profession, there
are a lot of things that we do, like a
576
00:29:24,058 --> 00:29:26,968
lot of fields that to stay current, right?
577
00:29:27,488 --> 00:29:30,488
Understanding what's changing in the
regulatory climate, what's changing
578
00:29:30,548 --> 00:29:31,718
at the local level, et cetera.
579
00:29:31,718 --> 00:29:35,738
I think this is another one
of those things that will
580
00:29:35,798 --> 00:29:39,653
be essential to stay fresh.
581
00:29:39,783 --> 00:29:43,263
Because what we use it for
today, we're gonna use it for
582
00:29:43,263 --> 00:29:44,733
something different tomorrow.
583
00:29:44,763 --> 00:29:50,673
And if you aren't ready to adopt
that, then that could be a challenge.
584
00:29:50,673 --> 00:29:55,203
And I think it's not being afraid, I
think it's really embracing the tools.
585
00:29:56,253 --> 00:29:58,693
Speaker: It's interesting you say
that 'cause you're giving it the same
586
00:29:58,693 --> 00:30:01,843
level as knowing the business or like
knowing like your local situation,
587
00:30:01,843 --> 00:30:03,253
knowing the regulatory environment.
588
00:30:03,523 --> 00:30:08,863
I feel like 10, 20 years ago when we
went from, I dunno, paper to HRIS, right?
589
00:30:08,863 --> 00:30:11,443
Or like on premise or
like cloud-based software.
590
00:30:11,773 --> 00:30:14,923
I don't think from an HR team
perspective you would put, hey, you
591
00:30:14,923 --> 00:30:18,583
really need to know how to do word
processing versus writing it like.
592
00:30:18,583 --> 00:30:22,573
I don't think you'd put it at that same
kind of tier in terms of like importance.
593
00:30:23,143 --> 00:30:26,893
But do you think this is like distinct
in that it's like as much if you're
594
00:30:26,893 --> 00:30:31,698
gonna be an HR professional in the
future like being AI literate is like
595
00:30:31,708 --> 00:30:33,458
on that level with these other things.
596
00:30:33,458 --> 00:30:37,248
As opposed to previous what we might
previously say about technology.
597
00:30:37,278 --> 00:30:39,848
'Cause one way to look at this is, hey,
it's the latest wave of technology.
598
00:30:39,848 --> 00:30:42,638
It's been shifting since
the industrial revolution.
599
00:30:42,728 --> 00:30:42,908
Sure.
600
00:30:42,908 --> 00:30:46,048
And it's just, you always gotta learn
the new tool and get with the times.
601
00:30:46,708 --> 00:30:47,908
Speaker 2: No, I think
that's exactly right.
602
00:30:47,908 --> 00:30:52,503
As I think about the entire AI
conversation, I think it used
603
00:30:52,503 --> 00:30:53,823
to be the shiny new thing.
604
00:30:53,953 --> 00:30:56,143
not that many years ago,
it was the shiny new thing.
605
00:30:56,743 --> 00:30:56,803
Yeah.
606
00:30:56,803 --> 00:31:02,223
Now, I think it's becoming imperative
and I think that those folks that
607
00:31:02,223 --> 00:31:09,623
let themselves fall behind, I think
will not be as successful long term.
608
00:31:11,478 --> 00:31:15,113
Speaker: So then we've made a
couple of things that, arguably
609
00:31:15,113 --> 00:31:17,633
a couple of assertions that
arguably is like doom and gloom.
610
00:31:18,213 --> 00:31:22,353
CHROs aren't gonna be like
expanding HR headcount anytime soon.
611
00:31:22,383 --> 00:31:25,653
Maybe the market is such that
everyone needs to do more with less.
612
00:31:26,223 --> 00:31:31,413
CHRO is able to provide like more
value themselves by using tools to do
613
00:31:31,413 --> 00:31:34,173
a training that they otherwise wouldn't
have been able to do in the past.
614
00:31:34,223 --> 00:31:34,913
Which is all great.
615
00:31:35,363 --> 00:31:41,983
But If you are a college graduate or
about to come out and are crazy enough
616
00:31:41,983 --> 00:31:44,713
to want to get into the function, right?
617
00:31:44,963 --> 00:31:46,433
New and upcoming.
618
00:31:46,583 --> 00:31:48,023
What thoughts would you have for them?
619
00:31:48,123 --> 00:31:51,693
If a diverse at all from this do and
gloom summary I try to put in place?
620
00:31:51,793 --> 00:31:54,133
Speaker 2: I think that it
is ripe with opportunity.
621
00:31:54,993 --> 00:32:01,563
I think that there are so many ways, I
think, to embrace this technology, and
622
00:32:01,563 --> 00:32:03,123
yes, it's making our workplaces different.
623
00:32:03,123 --> 00:32:03,603
Sure.
624
00:32:03,663 --> 00:32:04,443
But that's okay.
625
00:32:04,873 --> 00:32:07,153
At the end of the day, I really
believe there's always gonna
626
00:32:07,153 --> 00:32:08,473
be a place for good people.
627
00:32:08,523 --> 00:32:11,843
If you're coming out of school or
you're coming new into the profession,
628
00:32:11,843 --> 00:32:15,788
I think you get as experienced
as you can, as quickly as you can
629
00:32:16,248 --> 00:32:20,178
and do it with the right things
that where the risk is low, right?
630
00:32:20,178 --> 00:32:23,958
As you continue to build your skill
up and some of this stuff it's like
631
00:32:23,958 --> 00:32:25,608
the high diving board too, right?
632
00:32:25,708 --> 00:32:28,648
For me, I think that some of this
stuff is you just jump in, right?
633
00:32:28,648 --> 00:32:30,948
And I think you have a
lifeguard that's great.
634
00:32:31,198 --> 00:32:33,058
And you go right?
635
00:32:33,058 --> 00:32:34,888
And I think that's what I would
say to someone who's coming in
636
00:32:34,918 --> 00:32:40,358
that is not to be afraid of the
impact of some of these things.
637
00:32:40,428 --> 00:32:44,948
The whole work construct I
think will continue to evolve.
638
00:32:44,948 --> 00:32:46,148
And I think this is here to stay.
639
00:32:47,403 --> 00:32:49,173
Speaker: You're really painting
a picture for me, Adam.
640
00:32:49,173 --> 00:32:51,693
Talking about the high
diving board followed shortly
641
00:32:51,813 --> 00:32:53,283
after talking about impact.
642
00:32:53,918 --> 00:32:56,928
And I'd prefer to start
with the low diving board.
643
00:32:56,928 --> 00:32:59,308
Even with the life
lifeguard in place there.
644
00:32:59,388 --> 00:33:00,288
And I would pause it.
645
00:33:00,288 --> 00:33:01,848
That's what college and side projects.
646
00:33:01,848 --> 00:33:06,198
There's so many ways to get those reps
in if you're willing to like just go off
647
00:33:06,198 --> 00:33:08,238
and learn and try things on your own.
648
00:33:08,238 --> 00:33:11,623
Whether you're getting into the
workplace for the first time or you
649
00:33:11,623 --> 00:33:13,813
already are at a place and have a role.
650
00:33:13,813 --> 00:33:14,083
Right?
651
00:33:14,143 --> 00:33:17,413
You could probably ask yourself literally
anything that I find myself doing.
652
00:33:17,913 --> 00:33:20,043
Can I make this more efficient?
653
00:33:20,043 --> 00:33:24,898
But If that's the case for like new
grads, one other perspective I would
654
00:33:24,898 --> 00:33:28,838
love your thoughts on while I have you
is what about from a CHRO's perspective?
655
00:33:28,888 --> 00:33:30,568
It's a very different vantage point.
656
00:33:30,598 --> 00:33:34,648
There's sub-functions that are like
rolling and there's all these processes.
657
00:33:34,648 --> 00:33:38,398
Not to mention you're thinking about
the executive team and the board and
658
00:33:38,398 --> 00:33:42,388
enablement of the entire organization, but
personally as a CHRO or like when you go
659
00:33:42,388 --> 00:33:46,288
to these other like SHRM meetings, like
what are the things that you can advice
660
00:33:46,288 --> 00:33:49,978
you would have or at least things that
you do personally to feel like you're
661
00:33:50,038 --> 00:33:53,418
adapting and moving with the current and
feel like you have a handle on things.
662
00:33:53,418 --> 00:33:53,478
Yeah.
663
00:33:53,508 --> 00:33:55,158
Like how do you actually do that?
664
00:33:55,188 --> 00:33:57,468
What would you say you do
tactically, day to day, week to
665
00:33:57,468 --> 00:34:00,888
week, along with everything else
to feel like you're with it?
666
00:34:01,188 --> 00:34:02,118
Speaker 2: I keep trying.
667
00:34:03,778 --> 00:34:05,368
I think that's so important, right?
668
00:34:05,368 --> 00:34:09,268
I think that it would be easy for
someone to say, as you just did.
669
00:34:10,018 --> 00:34:12,928
That okay, from where I sit,
I don't need to know as much
670
00:34:12,928 --> 00:34:14,458
about the blah, blah, blah.
671
00:34:14,458 --> 00:34:19,018
And I think that's when a leader of
any function, HR, finance, whatever
672
00:34:19,018 --> 00:34:20,398
starts to lose a little bit of touch.
673
00:34:20,398 --> 00:34:24,108
And I think that I wanna stay
relevant just as much as I
674
00:34:24,108 --> 00:34:25,158
want my team to stay relevant.
675
00:34:25,158 --> 00:34:28,737
And so I think you make a great
point that it's how I've become in a
676
00:34:28,737 --> 00:34:32,277
fairly short order, I think, become
so comfortable with having it open
677
00:34:32,277 --> 00:34:36,447
and just using it throughout the
day just for little things, right?
678
00:34:36,447 --> 00:34:37,588
And larger things alike, right?
679
00:34:37,588 --> 00:34:41,428
And so I think it's challenging
ourselves as much as we challenge
680
00:34:41,428 --> 00:34:42,658
our departments to adapt.
681
00:34:43,058 --> 00:34:44,888
and the business as a
whole, and that's our job.
682
00:34:46,342 --> 00:34:46,853
Speaker: I love that.
683
00:34:46,853 --> 00:34:49,313
So look at the man in the mirror
and then just keep trying.
684
00:34:49,313 --> 00:34:52,743
I love that message because it
is easy to say there's a lot
685
00:34:52,743 --> 00:34:53,733
of other things to do, right?
686
00:34:53,733 --> 00:34:55,563
And maybe this is like someone else's job.
687
00:34:55,612 --> 00:35:00,183
But then if you are trying every day that
it tends to show up right to your team,
688
00:35:00,483 --> 00:35:05,503
to those around you, all stakeholders
and the message for the change that
689
00:35:05,503 --> 00:35:07,123
you're looking for in the organization.
690
00:35:07,483 --> 00:35:09,883
If it's embodied in what you're
doing personally, that's just
691
00:35:09,883 --> 00:35:11,623
absolutely accelerates things.
692
00:35:11,623 --> 00:35:13,618
So thank you for this conversation.
693
00:35:13,618 --> 00:35:15,238
That's might be about
all the time we have.
694
00:35:15,238 --> 00:35:20,488
But it was really fascinating to go talk
about the current environment that we
695
00:35:20,488 --> 00:35:24,588
are in as a CHRO and what you're seeing
from a talent acquisition process.
696
00:35:24,588 --> 00:35:26,568
The promise and the perils.
697
00:35:26,748 --> 00:35:28,498
But ultimately you gotta try.
698
00:35:28,548 --> 00:35:30,078
Gotta keep going, gotta try.
699
00:35:30,078 --> 00:35:33,258
And there will be roles and there
will be jobs for good people, right?
700
00:35:33,258 --> 00:35:34,638
Just have the right mindset.
701
00:35:34,978 --> 00:35:37,138
I think that's a great
optimistic note to end on.
702
00:35:37,138 --> 00:35:39,988
So thank you so much for
this conversation, Adam.
703
00:35:40,048 --> 00:35:43,198
It's been fascinating and for everyone
out there who's following along
704
00:35:43,588 --> 00:35:48,468
looking ways to future proof their own
organizations, their own HR functions.
705
00:35:48,918 --> 00:35:53,328
I think you may have found a couple of
nuggets of insight and maybe a little
706
00:35:53,328 --> 00:35:55,518
push to go off and do a thing or two.
707
00:35:56,038 --> 00:36:00,698
And so thank you again, Adam
for this and signing off.
708
00:36:00,728 --> 00:36:01,808
See you guys on the next one.
709
00:36:02,468 --> 00:36:02,858
Bye Adam.
710
00:36:02,858 --> 00:36:03,458
Speaker 2: Thanks.
711
00:36:04,874 --> 00:36:07,934
Thanks for joining us on this
episode of Future Proof HR.
712
00:36:08,174 --> 00:36:10,784
If you like the discussion, make
sure you leave us a five star
713
00:36:10,784 --> 00:36:13,664
review on the platform you're
listening to or watching us on.
714
00:36:14,084 --> 00:36:17,024
Or share this with a friend or colleague
who may find value in the message.
715
00:36:17,324 --> 00:36:22,274
See you next time as we keep our pulse on
how we can all thrive in the age on AI.
