This week on the podcast, Matt talks to Chad Clinehens, President and CEO of Zweig Group. They begin the episode by discussing Chad's background as a two time graduate of the University of Arkansas in engineering and business. Chad was able to leverage his engineering and MBA background to elevate his work in the AEC (architecture, engineering and construction) industry through strategic planning, M&A, consulting, and more. Later in the episode Chad provides insights on implementing strategic plans, engaging employees, confronting weaknesses, and driving growth. He also shares how Zweig Group leverages decades of data and case studies to help firms grow, and stresses the importance of intersecting business with other disciplines.

And I think it's really important that aspiring

leaders understand the business, being good at engineering or

architecture or environmental consulting. Those are all very,

obviously very important for the business to grow and thrive. But

understanding the business is what ultimately allows you to

create the opportunity and for it to have longevity.

Excellence, professionalism, innovation, and

collegiality. These are the values the Sam M. Walton College

of Business explores in education, business and the

lives of people we meet every day. I'm Matt Waller, Dean of

the Walton College, and welcome to the be epic podcast. I have

with me today. Chad Clinehens, President and CEO of Zweig

group. Thank you so much for joining me today, Chad.

Thank you, Matt. It's an honor and privilege to

be here.

Well, Chad, you, I want to start with you. And then

we'll talk about Zweig Group. But you started here at the

University studying civil engineering, you got your

bachelor's degree in civil engineering. And then you went

and got your MBA here. But during the time that you were

getting your MBA, at least you were already a civil engineer

with a civil engineering firm here in town. And and then you

went to Garver in Little Rock, and really, you were there for

13 years. Would you tell us just a little bit about Garver and

what you did there?

Yeah. So Garver was really the mark of my, the

beginning of my engineering career, I did intern at a firm

here in Fayetteville, and actually it was that experience

and a civil engineer who worked there who also got his MBA here

that helped inspire me to go straight through and but once I

had the the MBA, I was able to go full time into starting, I

would say the residency which is similar to a I would say

something a doctor does, there's four years to get a professional

engineers license, which is very important in consulting

engineering, so I moved to Little Rock after graduating the

Walton College, started my career with Garver, and almost

immediately wanted to put my MBA to work and got frustrated,

because it was difficult to do. But but realize that as an

engineer, you have to really build your practice, learn how

the business works, how clients purchase services, and, and so I

was in what I would say full time design work for probably

about three years, then spent some time over in the Tulsa

office and transferred over there to work with that team.

And just as soon as I could, and I pushed pretty hard. Once I got

my professional engineers license, I was able to get into

business development. And that was really just at the time cold

calling new or potential clients for Garver. And that is what got

my foot into the door in the door of the what I would say the

business side of the of the business. And, you know,

typically in engineering firms, and we see this a lot at Zweig

Group or what we say AEC firms, which is architecture,

engineering, construction, or consulting, that that industry

is that, you know, they're run by people who have degrees in

the profession or the type of service they're delivering. And

so the business side is a small part of the business. And you

don't really get there until you've been around for a really

long time and have a lot of experience. But as I said, my my

interest in getting on the business side, really guided my

career. And so I moved into business development, and then

ultimately marketing strategy. And it was just something that I

had a really developed I would say a love for and the CEO at

the time of Garver, Brock Johnson, could see that passion

that drive in me, so relocated me to the corporate office of

Little Rock in 2006. And I took over chief marketing officer

position. And then ultimately, the chief strategy officer

position. And it was that time period in 2006 to 2013, where we

launched our first what I would say, really significant

strategic plan for the company. And that was transformational

for the growth. And I led a rebranding and restructuring of

the organization. And several other of the I would say the key

initiatives that really, I would say created the change there

that that ultimately led them at the time, 200 staff members that

they had grown over 86 years. And now, since 2006, they're now

up to 1200, I believe plus employees. And it's the power of

a strategic plan, which is what ultimately led me to join Zweig

group. And is something now I do on a daily basis. And in fact,

recently, last year started teaching Strategic Management

here at the Walton College, as part of being able to put what

we see and how we help firms into practice. And then sharing

that with students is kind of bringing the content alive.

I want to talk about Zweig group as well.

You're president and CEO, and have been for almost seven

years. But before we do you mentioned strategic planning.

And I've been around strategic planning a lot in my life, I've

seen it work well, I've seen it not work well. What I mean by

that is sometimes, you know, strategic planning is viewed as

a task that you accomplish. And then you move on to the next

thing. You know, some people because they've experienced that

become cynical about it. But good strategic planning can make

a huge difference. Would you mind speaking to it a little

Oh, absolutely. You have to hope that, that your

bit?

clients haven't seen the stat that 70% of strategic plans are,

are viewed as a failure. And I think the reason behind that is

because so many leaders look at it as a check the box activity,

especially in this space, where professional services, there's

not the understanding, and I'm not sure if respect is the right

word, but but really understanding of the business

and how important and transformational strategic plan

can be. So they go to some conference and they hear you

need to have a strategic plan. And so they hire somebody or, or

they attempt to step themselves through it and then get

frustrated, because when they go back to work, many of them go

back to work designing infrastructure, designing homes,

working on a, you know, a construction project, and

because they are working in the business versus on it and then

we talked about that a lot last week, we had we hosted a CEO

roundtable in Napa Valley, so we had CEOs from all over the

country gathered there. And we talked a lot about working in

the business versus working on it and and events like that,

where you get together and talk about the business. You're

working on it. And it's important. It's an important

aspect. At Zweig group, I would say that we are wildly

successful in strategic planning, because we do

emphasize the importance of implementation. And actually, I

would say our plans are fairly simple, in that they're clear,

there's not too many objectives. They're rooted in what we say is

data and stories. So real data we've gathered, what their

clients are doing, what their employees are thinking and how

they're feeling. And we look at their financials, we look at

every aspect of the organization. And we put that

together with in the story side is case studies. What have we

seen work in this industry? What doesn't work in this industry,

we are not reading the latest management fad book, you know,

on strategic planning and using buzzwords, we are really focused

on, again, the case studies of things that work and helping

firms design a plan that they can actually go out and execute.

You know, in my experience with strategic

planning, I've seen them that where they've been so

complicated in so many pages, it was hard to get your head

around. But I've also seen strategic plans where there's

nothing strategy strategic about it, it's a plan. It's a plan for

the future, but it's not strategic.

Right.

How do you get clients to differentiate between

those?

So for us, we really talk a lot about the

importance of growth and the importance of building value in

the company. And so really tying it to something that everybody

benefits from and, and what every but what does every

business need to do needs to grow. And so especially in this

industry, and especially right now, where it is the busiest I

think if you pulled anybody and we do on a daily basis, it's the

busiest it's ever been in history, at least going as far

back as we've been doing research and before us. There

wasn't really a lot of research being done on the end.

Is that true across all three architecture,

engineering and construction?

I would say so, engineering is especially I

would almost say overheated right now, the demand for

especially infrastructure. Some of that's being driven by the

government, and then also what's coming down the pipeline with

the infrastructure jobs act, which we see hitting later this

year. So already demand is unprecedented. We've got work

weeks that are longer than they've ever been, then you go

to your organization with a strategic plan and say, We want

to grow this thing faster than we've been growing and into the

average employee, that means more work. But what we say is

growth solves problems. And growth creates the opportunity

gives you the resources, to hire people, to actually, again

solving those problems, but but bringing the resource to relieve

the areas there that are overheated or give the project

manager that's overworked the resources he or she needs to to

have a better balance in their life.

Growth does solve problems, no question. A lot of

times people admit managers administrators want the

resources before the growth because they see the need they

want to prepare.

Right.

How do you integrate that into the overall

process those those trade offs like that?

We talk a lot about return on investment, and

that there are certain things you have to prioritize

initially, almost that how do we create the spark? How do we

where do we deploy resources initially, that then can can

start producing returns, we say easy wins, you know, base hits,

whatever we can do to really jumpstart the growth, and then

people can see it. And you know, I'll say one thing that's really

important about the plans we put together. And it goes back to my

days at Garver is that strategic plans are largely a marketing

campaign. You know, it's going to the company and saying,

here's who we want to be in the future. And here's why that's

exciting. And here's your role in that. And so when I say our

plans are simple, it's they're not the the 100 page book that I

think a lot of leaders think they're going to get this top

secret manual that they put in the safe, behind the painting

behind their desk, you know, kind of hide it from everybody.

Whereas our plans are actually a presentation that's built, that

we then deliver, that it is designed to be shared with the

entire company. And we say, when you launch this, have a big

party, have a champagne toast, send gifts to the all the

employees, you do something to create a party atmosphere and

say this is a celebration, we're going to do something amazing

together. And this is what that looks like. And, and the most

successful firms that we work with get that and they really

integrate it into their business their day. And it's not

something that sits on the shelf. It's something that they

can talk about in every meeting, they can talk about an employee

reviews, and every individual has a role. We say in driving

growth of the organization, every single person.

How did you become interested and knowledgeable

about strategic planning your I know you have when you were at

Garver, you did a lot of strategic planning for them. And

you were the chief strategy officer. But you have there's

lots of nuance to it, like your idea of having a party, making

sure everyone knows they're engaged in the strategic plan

and in executing strategic plan. That's a lot of nuance. And I've

heard you talk about it before. How did you learn all this?

That's a good question. For me in my career,

the intersection of marketing, marketing strategy and just

strategy of the company is so it's amazing how intertwined it

is. And and so that was kind of a natural path, I just business

development, which was me going out and meeting new clients and

trying to secure contracts and the excitement of we got a new

client. In fact, early on in my career, we set a goal in our

small regional office in Tulsa to win five new clients a year

well, well we won eight. And I realized then that, you know,

the strategic plan, the idea that we're going to grow this

office, wrapped around a marketing campaign is very

effective. And so then when I got into more of the marketing

strategy, it just happened to intersect. That following year

with our visionary leader Brock Johnson, his desire to really

change the course of the company and been in business at that

time, I believe, 86 years. And straight line growth. Great

company did good work for their clients, but it was let's turn

this into a growing organization. Let's do a

strategic plan. And we just kind of figured it out. But but one

thing me pushing really hard on the campaign behind it, which we

called it Mission Possible, was the catchy phrase and I credit

Brock Johnson for coming up with that. But But talking about

mission possible. For five years, it was a, we're gonna

double the size of the company in five years. Interestingly,

launched in 2006. Well, what happened in 2008 recession that

really affected significantly, I would say the industry as a

whole, but but especially the private sector, our company was

not as affected. We did have some private, I would say

business lines, but we really quickly sent those folks that

were in that in those business lines, to learn some new skills

to where we could reorient them around some sectors that did

have money. And I think it was the strategic plan, the fact

that we were so committed to growth, that is why we were so

quick to say, Well, hey, let's not lay off these, these two

teams of people. Engineers are hard to find, let's find

something for them to do, and invest in them.

So you clearly have a passion for strategic

planning. You've seen it work when you, I remember the first

time we had lunch together, you told me the story about your

work at Garver and the strategic planning. And so you've been

doing this for a long time, I can tell in multiple

conversations with you that you are a true believer in strategic

planning. And what are some of the most important variables you

think exists in having a successful strategic plan, but

also, what are some of the biggest hindrances to it?

So I would say one of the most important things

is for leaders to be able to confront the things that are

holding them back. So the strategic planning process is

very well, like I said, data research oriented, you know, we,

our processes last five, six months, maybe for some of the

more involved plans, we can do them sometimes quicker. But but

that process is, so much of that is research, getting to know the

company and really digging deep and finding out what are the

things that make this company special, what are the things

that holds them back? We talked about the SWOT analysis. And we

do that and we talked about that in, in our strategic management

class up here at the university too, it's very important that

the SWOT analysis, understanding the strengths, weaknesses,

opportunities, opportunities and threats, is critical. So the

leader being able to then I would say, do the hard things.

And there often are some hard things you have to do to create

that change to affect that change. And, and then also be

willing to put the right people on the team, you can't have

everybody in the room, you as a leader, you've got to pick. And

we recommend, you know, five, eight, hopefully no more than

10. Sometimes the group's a little bit bigger than that. But

people that you can get together that when everybody walks out of

that room, even though they may not be equally excited about

every aspect of the plan, or maybe not even agree with every

aspect, but chosen to be a part of that team, that they walk out

being ambassadors of the plan, they can sell it to anybody in

the company, and the company can see that they believe in it. And

that's what we say is the price of admission to the strategic

planning, War Room.

Having had I've taught at all different levels,

undergrad, grad, and all different levels of grad. One of

the things I've noticed, of course, my area is supply chain

management. And there's a component of strategic planning

in supply chain management. But I've noticed undergraduates many

times struggle with this, especially but our Executive MBA

students, which have on average 13 years of experience before

they get in the program. They're all over it. How do you get

undergraduate students to see the importance of this?

That's a great question. And one of the reasons

that I really enjoy teaching this class it it was the first

class I was invited to teach and happened to be an incredible fit

for what we do. But I tell the students, I say listen, what

we're going to talk about, you're going to read case

studies. And a lot of this stuff is going to feel like it's

focused on like, the executive level and you're thinking, oh,

this will be relevant to me when I'm 20 years in, I said, but

think about what this is. This is strategic management of your

life. And you can employ these fundamentals immediately,

gathering information on the environment, deciding what you

want to do. by setting a growth goal, whether that's your net

worth, or you know how you want to grow your career, thinking

about the money side of it, or the position side of it, and

really managing your life strategically. And so these

things that we're going to learn here are immediately applicable.

And also just understanding how any company or business you get

in works is a powerful perspective. And don't segment

this knowledge off, you know, is okay, well, this is great. And

maybe someday I'll be a part of a strategic planning team. It's

so powerful for you today, to think about it beyond just the

context of a career but your life.

Let's talk about Zweig group a little bit. Tell

us a little bit about Zweig group. What makes Zweig group

notable?

Well, I would say that we're one of the first

companies that does what we do in this industry, and started by

Mark Zweig now 35 years ago in Boston. And it's interesting, if

you look at where companies are located that do this kind of

thing. There's many of them are in Boston, and you can look at

it, many companies that were formed out of former Zweig Group

employees. But what really makes Zweig group unique is that wide

of a perspective, 35 years. And so Mark Zweig built his career

working with 1000s of companies, and the stories that Mark Zweig

tells then I'm able to adopt, and the stories that I have from

Garver and from other companies that I've worked with here at

Zweig Group, others are able to adopt. And so those those

stories are case studies. And you can see what, okay, maybe

something that did work in 97 doesn't work in, in, you know,

2023, or it might

Right

Right, something that I would say also makes us

unique is that we are data researchers and analysts. And,

and so we've got this 35 years of data, and we've seen how it

changes. And we know what's going on in the industry real

time. And we use that to drive our content. We're not just

trying to make stuff up, we're getting people excited and

making up new buzzwords.

Many times people don't know about it, unless

they're in the industry itself.

Right.

Although Mark's name is widely known, he's he's

a good marketer, too.

Indeed,

I know you, you also do a lot of other things

beyond strategic planning. You all are engaged in mergers and

acquisitions, and all kinds of consulting, tell us a little bit

about how m&a works and the AAC industry and is there a lot of

activity currently in that area?

it is a red hot area right now of the business

of the industry, private equity has really come into the

industry very strongly in the last several years, that's

really changed the game. And, and so consolidation is

happening. There's also you know, when you look at

transition of a company, you have founder starts a company,

then they get close to retirement, they either have to

have people inside the company that can buy him or her out, or

some group of, of leaders, or they've got to find some other

way to transition it. And so so they're leaders that have waited

too late, which is it's very common. You know, you've got to

be thinking what you're going to do with your business 10, a

minimum of 10 years out, but but we get calls from leaders and

they say, hey, I'm thinking about transitioning out in five

years, what do I need to do? We're like, well, we gotta get

to work real quickly.

Chad, tell us a little bit about which areas of

the business you focus on. And really, what is the core of your

business?

Well, that's a great question. The short answer

is we focus on all of the areas of the business. So every

aspect, we talked about ownership transition, we can go

in and help build recruiting programs, we can help a company

buy other companies or sell their company. Of course, we've

talked a lot about strategic planning. We can help them

rebrand their company. So every single aspect of the business

but but what's interesting about that, and it's neat, to be able

to do that and to be that kind of a resource for the industry.

It also presents a challenge for us if there's so much that we

focus on, right. And, and so we to get good at those areas, we

just make sure we've got good leadership, and they really have

some autonomy in almost building a mini business inside our

business. And so the ability to connect to people and find those

experts out in the industry that can then come and present, what

we would say is a practical and applicable approach to these

things, when there's a lot of misinformation is a neat thing

to be able to do. But it's also not easy, you know, as figuring

out, okay, where should we be on this particular topic? And, and

then, you know, deciding all of the sudden that that wasn't in

our strategic plan, we didn't start necessarily this year

saying, hey, AI is gonna be a super hot topic that all of a

sudden, in May is just gonna, like, light the industry up.

That's essentially what's been happening. And there's been

others that have been looking at this earlier than that, but it

really has become a hot topic. And so for us to be able to then

add that part into our what I would say our cadre of expertise

is a neat thing that also presents a challenge.

Chad, you have a lot of experience here at the

university, both as a student two time student, two time alum,

your names on the sidewalk twice, you're teaching here,

you've worked in the area, what advice would you want on a

billboard? If all the students could see this billboard every

day walking around campus? What would you have on the billboard?

What I would say is the the answer is that I of

Chad, we've talked about all kinds of things

course, love my profession, of engineering, but the

intersection of that, and business and the arts and all of

the different colleges that we have here on campus, I think

students have got to understand, you don't just get a business

degree and just go to business and you don't just get an

engineering degree, and just do engineering, that the

intersection of arts and business and engineering and all

of the different things that you can learn up here on campus,

have an application to your life and to really find something

that you will enjoy doing. And then realize that you're not

limiting yourself. But I think we do need to promote more what

we do all of us, you know, what a career looks like in whatever

it is. And of course, I'm a huge believer in and proponent of

STEM and, and the professions that are related to engineering

because the world needs that. But just as much we need the

business executives, we need the artist, we need everybody else

that helps kind of make this world go round.

regarding your background and Zweig group, including strategic

planning. So I'm really interested what is the mission

of Zweig group?

The mission of Zweig group is simply to elevate

the industry. And if you go back to the founding of Zweig group

by Mark Zweig it was to bring business acumen and to help AEC

firms grow, understand the business, drive performance,

create opportunity. And in 2018, we rolled out what I would say

is a refined version of that to simply elevate the industry. And

we use the quote from John F. Kennedy, a rising tide lifts all

ships, so every company, we can help, maybe drive greater

growth, drive greater profits, create more resources for their

people, so they live better lives. That then as a part of

that rising tides of every company that we can impact.

Because there's multiple aspects of of why we need to elevate the

industry. We need more kids to be interested in what a career

is, and can be in this industry. We need the rest of the public

to understand the impact that Architects, Engineers, the

construction industry has on the world around them. And so all of

that led to this this big idea, I call it of elevate the

industry and it's been something that really people have gotten

around our clients like it they they like the simplicity of it.

They like the rallying cry behind elevate the industry and

especially when they're really trying to find how can they get

more staff and and knowing that we need to inspire the younger

generation to choose a career here. That is something that I

think is going to be timeless for us. And we, we talk about

missions being somewhat timeless for companies, you know, the

vision changes along the way. But the mission is timeless and

so elevate the industry is a is an exciting for me and the rest

of our company, a way to bring us together and get us to

understand and get excited about. We're making a big impact

here. And we're elevating individuals, firms and then

ultimately the industry.

Chad, thank you so much for taking time to visit

with us today. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Matt. Appreciate it.

On behalf of the Sam M. Walton College of

Business, I want to thank everyone for spending time with

us for another engaging conversation. You can subscribe

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