Psychometrics can be used in a huge range of ways to help you achieve your HR and People goals at work. They’re incredibly popular as part of the recruitment process for hiring new talent at all levels. And some of the many other things they’re used for include leadership development programmes; team building activities and conflict resolution.

Whether you’ve been using psychometric assessments for years and know quite a lot about them, or you’ve never used them at all, or you sit somewhere in the middle and have used a couple of them and know a bit about them but would like to know more – this episode is here to help.

Business Psychologist Sue Colton explains what psychometric assessments are, how you can use them & why they’re so helpful.

Key Resources Mentioned in This Episode 

• Hogan Assessments
• SHL Occupational Personality Questionnaire (OPQ)
• Myers-Briggs (MBTI)
• DiSC
• Sue’s first book recommendation: “The Chimp Paradox” by Professor Steve Peters
• Sue’s second book recommendation: “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking” by Susan Cain (Disclosure: the book links are affiliate links which means that Fay will receive a small commission from Amazon if you make a purchase through either of them)

Connect With Fay & Sue

• Connect with Sue on LinkedIn
• Sue’s website
• Connect with Fay on LinkedIn
• The Bright Sky Career Coaching website

Other Episodes You May Be Interested In

• 003: Building relationships with difficult people at work (Fay explains DiSC in detail in this episode)

 Rate and Review the Podcast

If you found this episode of HR Coffee Time helpful, please can you rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? If you're kind enough to leave a review, please do let Fay know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: fay@brightskycareercoaching.co.uk.

Enjoyed This Episode? Don't Miss the Next One!

Be notified each time a new episode of HR Coffee Time is released and get access to other free career tips, tools and resources by signing up to receive the free weekly HR Coffee Time email.

How Fay & Bright Sky Career Coaching Can Help You

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast & would like some support from Fay or her colleagues at Bright Sky, they can help you through:

• 1:1 coaching to overcome your career challenges
• Group coaching – build your confidence, credibility & influence in 6 weeks through Fay’s signature programme, Inspiring HR
• Interview coaching to succeed in your next interview
• Career change coaching to find a new, more fulfilling career
• The ‘Power Up Your LinkedIn Profile’ online course, to create a powerful LinkedIn profile and build your confidence at using LinkedIn to get your next role.
• The free pdf condensed version of Fay’s HR Planner for 2023

Welcome to this episode of HR Coffee Time. It's wonderful to have you here. I'm your host Fay Wallis, a Career Coach and the Founder of bright sky career coaching, where our mission is to help HR and People professionals have successful and fulfilling careers without working themselves into the ground.

In this episode, you're going to meet Sue Colton, a Business Psychologist with an HR background. She is highly qualified in designing and administering psychometric assessments. Psychometrics can be used in a huge range of ways to help you achieve your People goals at work. They're incredibly popular as part of the recruitment process for hiring new talents at all levels. So, from the junior level, right up to senior exec level. And some of the many other things they're used for include leadership development programmes, team building activities, and conflict resolution. Sue takes us through what psychometric assessments are, how they can be used, and what some of her favourites are.

So whether you've been using psychometric assessments for years and know quite a lot about them, or you've never used them at all, or you sit somewhere in the middle, and you've used a couple of them and know a bit about them, but you'd like to know more. I really hope this episode is helpful and that you enjoy it.

Hi, Sue. Welcome to the show. It's so lovely to have you here.

Hi Fay, thank you for having me. Looking forward to our chat.

You're very welcome. And I thought we could start off our chat, by me asking you to introduce yourself to everybody.

Okay, well, hi, everyone. As Fay said, I'm Sue Colton. I'm a qualified Business Psychologist with an HR background. So I started my career actually as a banker and work for NatWest for quite a while and moved into HR, which then became more geared towards a psychology element to that. So when I left there, and went to KPMG, where I really started focusing on behaviour profiling, which is what I do a lot of the time now. What really fascinates me is why people do what they do and what lies beneath. So I'm keen to help people get the best out of themselves, and for the workplace to match up with that and allow them to be the best they can be to. I spend a lot of my time working with companies, sometimes executive search firms, when they're hiring or promoting people doing behaviour assessment, using psychometrics, which I think is what we're going to talk about today. But I also sort of help design systems and processes that enable and sustain reciprocated employee engagement mechanisms. So it could be competency frameworks, staff opinion surveys, job families, so anything that helps improve the relationship between employer and employee, the psychological contract, I call it.

Fantastic. Well, I'm so looking forward to our talk today. I'm very lucky, as in Sue lives around the corner from me. So we get to meet up fairly regularly. And whenever I see you, I learn so much, and I just feel incredibly grateful that everyone listening is going to get to benefit from your incredible knowledge today, too.

Thank you for having me. And that is really sweet. And ditto, I do learn a lot from you as well.

Oh, well, I'm not sure. But we'll see. So, I better crack on with the main part of the show and dive straight in by asking you to talk us through what psychometrics actually are.

Okay, well, in a nutshell, as far as today is concerned, they are tools or instruments that help us provide objective evidence based measurement of aspects of personality or ability. So although you can use psychometrics to measure all sorts of things, we're talking about personality types, and ability. Ability tests would be numerical reasoning, verbal reasoning, all those kinds of things you may have done at school, or where there is a right or a wrong, which is not so much what we're going to talk about today, we're going to look more at personality. So it's behaviour profiling, in this case, mainly used for selection of candidates and all development purposes.

So you've given us a couple of examples of the sorts of things they can measure and assess. So how can they actually be used?

Quite often, we might be using them for say selection, it will be looking at the aspects of personality that lie beneath that might not be so obvious. So when people are recruiting somebody, the recruiter which could be the actual hiring company, or their search consultancy, a recruitment company, they will do interviews that might assess technical ability skill, behavioural career history, so where they've been before, but not often do they actually get deep beneath the characteristics of an individual? So using psychometrics for that really help us understand the traits or the type of person that we're dealing with. So in that sense, we can then use them to look at the perspective fit the candidate has with the culture of the organisation or the team they're working within. If it's a leadership role, we can look at their leadership style, if it's a sales role, we can look at their sales ability. So it is also looking at approach to an impact on a team and or culture. It can also be used for individuals when they're thinking about what careers they might want to go into. So where their behavioural skills might best suit their long term career dreams. So for career development, or even career assessment at very early stage, they can be used for school, or on school leavers or graduates, to help them determine the best career for them. So it's looking at individuals preferences and behaviours, but not necessarily any one element, it might be looking at a broad range of things, using, as I say, highly validated questionnaires. So ones that have gone through rigorous amounts of validity and reliability testing, which is a whole topic on its own for becoming accredited in the first place. So you do have to go through all of that kind of training. But what really rocks people's boat as well as it can look at where we go under stress and pressure. So the dark side as it's known. And that's something that a lot of recruiters really want to know what happens when our best might derail and go from strength to maybe weakness. So to find out those kinds of things, but they're interesting, and if nothing else, they increase people's self awareness.

And when I first met you and you started talking to me about all of this, I quickly realised, I have never met anyone who is accredited or certified or qualified to administer so many different kinds of assessments. It's incredible. Do you actually know how many you're qualified in?

Well, I have tried to become accredited in one more every year, just to keep up to date really. Once you've got a certain level of qualification, you can do conversion courses, and some of them will just let you almost be able to use them without any further training. But that does defeat the object of the exercise, they're all slightly different. So normally, I do an accreditation, but maybe about 20. But there are 1000s on the market, some more reputable than others. And to be honest, some I've trained in and although I'm qualified to use them, I'd really have to remind myself how they're made up, if I was ever asked. So, you do get into a groove of recommending the ones you know, then use the most frequently. There's a good few that I keep close to my heart and I recommend as being highly valuable and accurate in terms of assessing behaviour. But I mean, I do also do things like 360s for people which they've sometimes they're bespoke and need to be more individually designed.

There's obviously the ability tests as well. But if somebody said to me, oh, we want to do we look at somebody's risk profile, maybe in a Asset Management kind of role, then I've got risk tools that I'd use specifically for that, that might fall out of using a more generic behaviour assessment. So they might go alongside or allow us to do another in depth analysis on a particular aspect of work, like as I say risk assessment. So it depends very much what needs to be done. There's also situational judgement tests that we can use where you give people scenarios, and allow them to work through that. So they're a little bit more qualitative, than may be quantitative. And also, I do assessment centres and design assessment centres, and they will include psychometrics, but as well as role plays, case studies, meetings, presentations, structured interview. So that's when psychometrics actually fit into a much broader way of assessing ability and capability. And typically they're used for graduates, or for more of a mass intake role at maybe up to middle management level.

Yes, because listening to you talk, everyone's probably going to realise that not only are you certified in using all of these different ones, but you can actually design and create assessments specifically for a project or a person if you need to, which is definitely not something I can do. So I'm only certified at the moment, in using DISC. I use it quite a lot. I really enjoy using it. I think it's absolutely fantastic. I would definitely like to get certified in using more, but I'm not sure I'm ever going to get to the point that you're at Sue. Certainly not. And I could not go in somewhere and say, Oh, this is your requirements. So don't worry, I can design the perfect assessment for you. I'm completely fascinated by this. How on earth do you do it?

Well, I mean, I think with my KPMG hat on of being a management consultant as I was for a while, the first thing is to understand what it is you want to achieve. So what does good look like at the end, and then work out where you are now, and how you're going to get there and then the design bit comes into that. So sometimes it might be purely about assessing key aspects of behaviour. Other times it might be about sort of designing a building capability programme, as I have done, whereby you're actually designing a competency framework for a whole company that will be used from junior to very senior people. And then the competencies themselves will be used as part of the criteria for the psychometrics that we use. So you know that's a much broader project and one I have done. So, designing the infrastructure first, and then saying, Okay, we've done all of that. Now, we want to bring people into certain roles. So what are the competencies and levels of competencies relevant to say, the Head of Sales for an organisation. So then you look at the competencies you've designed, and you design an assessment around those competencies, and you can use psychometrics to help measure the level of competence, behavioural competence that is on the individuals concerned. So it could be quite a broad project. But other times, I might be rung up by a recruitment company that says, you know, we've got a CEO for a large charity, and I do do a lot in the charity sector like that. So I'm doing more straightforward behaviour profiling, I will speak to the candidate, they'll complete the assessments, I look at the assessments, I come up with a hypotheses, I speak to the candidate, and then I write a report. And then I feed back to the panel, which will include the hiring company, as well as the recruiters and I talk through each of the candidates following up on the reports I've written. So that's quite a short project might last couple of weeks, as opposed to the competency design ones that might take four months, depending on the complexity.

And where you've mentioned behavioural competencies there, what kind of behaviours is it that you'd be measuring?

I think most roles, there's always an aspect of measuring people's decision making ability, the ability to deliver results. I mean, you'd think really one way or another, whether you're measuring that specifically, or under some other kind of heading, you do need to look at what is necessary on a deliverable basis and how you can assess somebody's ability to do that. I mean, some people will do everything just in time, very last minute, they're more impulsive, more maybe distractible, which isn't necessarily a good thing. But it would be a better thing in a creative role. So if the role requires, you know, high imagination and longer term vision, then creativity is great, when we all need to be creative to a certain element. But if it's about delivering something by Friday on a regular basis, then you need somebody to be much more decisive. So we might be measuring aspects of that. I mean, certainly at a leadership level, you're measuring possibly things like strategic thinking, obviously, their ability to lead a team and manage a team, but still how they manage the delivery of results, even if it's through other people, not directly themselves. So there's those kind of generic factors that will come into every role. But obviously, some are more attributed to leaders than maybe you say, salespeople or somebody actually doing a job in a different role, or like a Chief Financial Officer, you're looking perhaps at more their risk analysis ability, or their analytical skills maybe more than you would be if you're in marketing, and you're doing creative content writing, the risk there is very different

Can you measure for potential because having done so much interview coaching in my time, I know that one thing people really worry about going into say a competency based interview is the fact that they may not have evidence of having used a particular skill or behaviour at work before because they've not had the opportunity to. And I've always wondered, how is it that thinking of us as HR teams, for anyone listening who works in HR and thinks, oh, I want to be able to hire based on potential rather than examples of previous performance? Is that possible?

Yeah, I mean, you're looking at more development than selection. So I mean, a lot of the time I do a lot of selection. So it is looking about people's more immediate ability. But to be honest, you can go back and see where the potential is. I mean, if you believe that we either right with our right hand or our left hand, you know, as in we have innate abilities in within us, then if you're asking for somebody to become a creative marketing content writer, and yet, they're actually using their other hand, so to speak, in how they operate every day, and they're much more fact driven, analytical here and now, then that alone would make you think, well, they're not somebody who's going to come up with the next rocket scientist, or Dyson gadget or whatever, because they're just not that way inclined.

So there are certain attributes in us that you could say, that will never really work for them. That isn't who they are or who they will become. So if you look at the basic characteristics and personality traits that we hold, from that alone, you could tell whether there's potential for them to move in certain areas. Also, if you do measure competence, then you can define what the competence looks like now and what it might look like in the future. And you can ramp people up. We're all capable of growing within the realms of what we're good at. So we can excel and get better. And we can learn and grow but there are some things we'll never be good at, we are naturally going to write with our left hand or right hand. We can't suddenly become that ambidextrous, but within the things that we can do, we can get better.

That's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about that before; that you could say this is how we would expect them to be performing or behaving now at this level of competence, but actually in the future, it could be even more. So I think that could be really helpful when thinking about it from, well, whether it's a recruitment perspective, or like you were saying a career development perspective.

Yes, yeah. And if you are somebody who's good at, say, in a finance role, and you want to know, have you got the potential to become the Chief Financial Officer, which might be a career path that's 10 years down the line, then you could see what technical skills, obviously, as well as behavioural skills they have that would allow them to progress into that. The other thing that I've often done for companies is build a job families network, which actually it's a bit like, well, snakes and ladders without the, the snakes, but you can actually say, Well, in this family, if you want to get to that level, then these are the steps you have to go through. And these are the competencies you're going to need to grow and develop. And these are the sort of behavioural attributes that you will gain along the way, because the competencies are underpinned enough that you can move from now up to here. So you can see a step by step or even if you're in, say, a clinical nurse family, which is one I have done for veterinary practices, and you want to become a surgeon, then you can still from that, see how you could get to do that, because it talks about the qualifications you'd need as well. And then the memberships of certain forums, you might need to be on or whatever. So if you have a career pathway built within your organisation, then that allows individuals to see I'm here and I want to get there and how on earth am I going to do that? So you're creating a pathway based on job families and competencies, and then individual attributes.

The next idea, Sue shared is something that I hadn't really thought about before. And that's how psychometrics can potentially be used to help wellbeing at work. I thought this was really interesting.

The Hogan which I use a lot, which has got the HDS in it, which is the one that's actually known as the darkside, knowing where we go under pressure, and stress. And what causes us to burn out is worthwhile, especially when we might be dealing with people in the HR community and the people that we serve within the HR community. If we understand what makes us derail, then we can help line managers help themselves in helping others where they derail. I mean burnout is becoming an increasing pressure again, on people but what makes people burn out and what can we do to avoid it? I'm very much into the mental health aspects of all of this, in trying to understand why we do what we do. I've trained as a Mental Health First Aider as maybe a lot of you have, knowing that it's increasing in importance, but also having measurements of you know, what will that mean for this type of person, for that type of person? How can we tell that people are derailing if their personality type is somebody who's more introversion, and that's more than just being introverted. But if they have introversion, you're not even going to see what causes them to derail necessarily, because all their thought processes are managed inside their head. So as HR professionals, should we be more aware of this is how it will manifest for that type of person. Who's supporting line managers. They're the ones expected to carry everyone else and they've got their own level of pressure greater than it ever was in certainly, in having to manage more hybrid teams, people that don't see face to face, where lots of the nuances that we would have gleaned in a visual team meeting have been taken away. So it's all about being better equipped, as individuals as teams, and as organisations to manage everyone's health and wellbeing better than perhaps we did three or four years ago.

Oh, you're making me once going get qualified in Hogan now. And I am a trained Mental Health First Aider as well, because I completely agree with you. It's just so important. When you were just talking about Hogan, you mentioned HDS, can I just check what that means?

Hogan was developed by Bob Hogan and his team in the US, but it is widely used worldwide, in fact, and there's three elements to it effectively, there's the HPI, which looks at how we present ourselves to other people. So, how we're seen and that's got effectively, seven primary scales, and then other scales underneath, but they're all self report. So you fill out a questionnaire and then it will look at how others see us. So it's looking at ambition, sociability, and our levels of prudence and inquisitiveness, and interpersonal sensitivity, amongst other things. Then it's also got a second questionnaire, which is the M V P I, which is motivations, values and preferences inventory, and that looks at the things that actually rock our boat, shall we say. And that gets us up in the morning and what drives us. So, it looks to things like are we motivated by power, altruism, tradition, security, commerce, aesthetics, science. There's even one called Hedonism, which is not quite as it's meant to sound but that looks at our need for fun and variety. 80 at work. And then the third one is the HDS, which is the Hogan Development Survey, but has been rebranded very successfully by them as the dark side. And that looks at where we go under pressure. Typically, we'd have three to five areas, maybe that would come up as areas of strength when they get overplayed, they can actually sort of derail us. So we all have them. We all have somewhere we go when we're stressed or pressurised. And then it's what you do about that, and what environments might kick that off. Hogan is brilliant at looking at a very broad array of attributes that we might hold as individuals and how they may play out in the workplace. And what roles as well. That's what I do, is I get the data, I unpick it and I look at how things hang together. And then consider the role the applicant is going for and think about, will it play to their strengths? Or will it play to their weaknesses? And then I'll talk it through them and see what they say.

Thank you. I hadn't realised we were going to get to have such a deep dive into Hogan. It's made me really keen to learn more about it. I know that that is one of your favourite tools that you use. Would you be happy to share a couple of other favourites with us as well?

Yes, yeah, sure. So another one I use a lot is SHL. The OPQ, which is the occupational personality questionnaire; that covers 32 different traits, which are used every day. I mean it is one tool I use quite a lot. And it covers not dissimilar things to Hogan in a way but they're more just straight traits. So that will look at your thinking style, again, attitude to stress, you know, how stressed you might be, how vigorous you might be, where your information gathering attributes might go? Are you more data driven, or emotional driven, so that again, lots of different things come out of that. And you can pull together something, that we'll end up with the same amount of information. So when I ring up a candidate I can say, This is what it's telling me, how does that feel to you?

But the bit that I hopefully will add value in looking at is how one attribute might go with another. So if somebody's highly vigorous, is that driven by anxiousness? Or is it driven by just need to be busy? You know, what's actually driving those things? How does that fit with one of the other traits that might come up. So it's trying to piece the whole thing together, rather than just looking at 32 different lines of data.

I use lots of other trait type tools. But another tool I use a lot, but I wouldn't use it for selection is Myers Briggs - MBTI. And it is one that most people will have come across if they've had any exposure to psychometrics. Again, it's used worldwide, but mainly for team development, very good for getting over conflict. So if you work in a team of people, you know, you might have thought, what I don't quite get on with that person. And I can't work out why or we seem to speak a different language, they might be more driven by introversion and you're driven by extraversion. So that might cause a bit of an issue. So the 'E', that the one with extraversion might think they're always doing all the talking. And the 'I' introversion doesn't really contribute anything to meetings, they seem very withdrawn, we can't really get much out of them. And yet, if you ask the 'I', at the end of the meeting, what they thought about what we said they will be the ones that will probably give you the greatest, most succinct summary having processed everything inside their head. Whereas to the 'I', the 'E', or all the 'Es' together have made a lot of noise, and not necessarily come up with anything, in fact that might be me, I'm the 'E'.

I'm the 'E' as well.

So but equally another one of the continuums on the MBTI scale is J and P judging and perceiving. I wouldn't read too much into those words, but the Js are the work first play later. So they tend to be early for everything don't like being late, they want everything off their list before they even start messing around on a Friday afternoon. Whereas the Ps are much more casual open ended spontaneous go with the flow, can deal with last minute change to routines; don't really like to be pinned down so much. But they're much more easygoing and able to attend a meeting, probably they might be a bit late if they turn up. And depending on other attributes as well, they might be more relaxed about the whole thing and don't necessarily feel the same need to go through an agenda on time, which might annoy the Js quite a bit. So very different ways of working. And that can cause of all of the MBTI scales, that's the one that can cause them the most difficulty. You know, the Js want everything closed, finished off the list before they'll start something else. And the Ps never really want anything closed, finished, or off the list. So yeah, they're very different ways of working. And I do use that in team exercises. But it's definitely one if you know all of those things about yourself. I think that stands most people in better stead for the whole of their career; even their relationships at home, family, friends as parents with children, all sorts of things. Great one to pick up on. Have you trained in that one?

I haven't trained in that one. But lots of what you're saying it's making me think of DISC which I have trained in.

Yes, yeah. And there are similarities.

I agree. It's so helpful for team environments; just to help everyone properly realise that we're all different. And we can all get along. And actually understanding each other's preferences just makes the world of difference once you understand why the other person is behaving in a different way to you, and what that means, and that it's not necessarily a bad thing.

When I first trained in it years ago, that's what it made me realise is, oh, light bulb moment, I get it now why I don't quite gel with that person. But actually, now I know, I need to go to them for this and this, you know, so if I do sort of Team days or MBTI sessions, at the end of it is worth doing a bit of contracting. So you get two people talking to each other about this is who I am. This is who you are, how does that work? What are the strengths of that dynamic? And what are the limitations? And how best can we work together. So I think it's really powerful and good fun as well, it's a nice thing to do. And I mean people love talking about themselves, and they love expressing where things work, and where they don't work with other people. So that's, you know, great useful tool, and is the one that, as I say, is most widely known. So probably to a lot of the HR community, it's the one they know best.

It's a great way of opening up that dialogue, isn't it? Because sometimes if there is friction within a team, everyone's sort of dancing around the edges of it, not sure how to bring it up and I think it can be a really helpful way of cutting straight through to the issue, without causing any sort of blow up or upset in the process.

Yes, it's about psychological safety and setting up that process. Isn't it saying we've got permission to talk about things that might irritate me, or might not. And what can I do to make work life better for you and vice versa.

I've realised that I could just talk to you all day about this. And I have so many other questions. But to save this from being a sort of three hour podcast episode, I better start to wrap things up. And as you know, I always ask every guest on the show, if they can share their top nonfiction book recommendation. Are you happy to share what yours is?

Yes, but I have to have a bit of an admittance of the fact that I don't tend to read that many books cover to cover like that. I tend to dip in and out of them. But two books I was going to suggest, which I've dipped in out of rather than read. The first one is called, 'The Chimp Paradox' by Professor Steve Peters, which I assume some of you may have heard of, have you heard of it?

I have it on my bookshelf. I feel terrible, saying this - I have not read it. I've got it on Audible as well. So you've at least dipped in and out of it. I haven't even I think got past Chapter One. But I know it is really highly rated. And it's supposed to be brilliant.

the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking". And that's written by Susan Cain. And that is very much written on the MBTI subject of introversion, and what it really means. So if you are somebody who you think is an introvert or governed by introversion, which is more than just being introverted, but if you are that kind of person, definitely a book that would make you feel empowered just through reading it, because I think introversion is something that's quite misunderstood. And people are often moved to think that that's not the person they should be. And work is actually geared up more to extraversion. So a book for the 'Is' amongst us really worth a read.

I have read that one cover to cover. And I agree it's absolutely brilliant. As you've just said that, I've realised we've talked about introversion and extraversion a few times without clearly defining them. I would normally describe extraversion if you're more extroverted rather than introverted, then you tend to be energised by being around people. Whereas if you're introverted, you tend to get your energy more by spending time on your own. So it's much more important to you that you have your alone quiet time.

Yes, they are absolutely that I mean, it is about energy levels exactly that so you can be a shy extrovert or a socially confident introvert. So that's what I mean it is more than just being an extrovert or an introvert; it's not about confidence levels. So extraversion is about the fact that we plug ourselves into the outer world to get our energy. So if we're feeling down or low, whatever the best thing we can do is go to a coffee shop and sit there and we don't you know, we will get energy from that noise. We can shut off what's going on around us providing we're not latched into an interesting conversation or a bit of gossip, but we will get that energy, whereas the opposite is introversion. They will burn out if they sit in somewhere too noisy. So they plug themselves into themselves, their energy comes from within. So whereas if an E the extraversion asks an I a question, that extraversion is, that person is more likely to answer the question as well as ask it and be filling any any quiet time. There's no quiet time. It's all of this, we were both Es, and we're talking very fast, and we spar off each other. And we're zipping around loads of different conversations. And then suddenly, we might think, Oh, hold on, we need to go back to the beginning, we haven't actually got to the answer. And we've skimmed 10 subjects in four seconds. Whereas if an E asks an I a question, there'll be a pause before they think because they will think it through before they say something, their answer might be quite slow, in coming, it might be quite short, quite succinct. And it will just answer the question, they won't necessarily come back with more information or even another question of you. So I mean, two Is will sit together quite quietly, and maybe not say very much. Whereas an E would find that really uncomfortable to sit quietly with another E, and you know, not all the time. And we can do that at home, and in other relationships, but we like noise. So there's all of that side of things. So it's about where you do your processing. Do you do it in the outer world? Do you think out loud and formulate ideas through other people? Or do you formulate ideas quietly in your head, away from other people? There are other bits. But that's it in a nutshell.

Well, thank you so much, Sue. It has just been absolutely fantastic having you on the show today. For anyone who's been listening, who thinks, Oh, I must find out more about Sue and her work, what is the best way of them getting in touch with you and learning more about your work?

Okay, so you can get in touch with me through my website, which is suecolton.co.uk. And hopefully, I can help you. But I look forward to hearing from anyone who's interested.

And are you happy for people to connect with you on LinkedIn?

Oh, absolutely.

Great. Well, I'll put a link to everything that Sue's just mentioned, including your LinkedIn profile, Sue, I'll pop that in the show notes. So for anyone listening who would like to get in touch with you, they can do that really easily. And all that leaves me to say is a huge thank you.

Well, thank you. Thank you. I always enjoyed talking to you. And thank you for asking such great and interesting questions, and for listening.