In this episode of the Pivot podcast, the Rev. Clara King, an Anglican priest and researcher who has worked extensively with small, rural churches in the Anglican Church of Canada, shares her wisdom and hope for a church that equips and empowers laypeople to step into their God-given callings. Starting with her experience working with congregations on the margins, Clara makes the case that the "edges" of the church are actually the center of innovation and renewal, modeling the shifts that all churches will need to make in the coming years.

Through vivid stories of ordinary laypeople becoming extraordinary leaders, Clara paints a picture of what vibrant, collaborative ministry can look like when clergy and congregations work together to "own their stuff" and embrace a more Spirit-led, adaptive way of being church. Whether you're a clergy leader looking for fresh ways to empower your congregation or a layperson discerning your own call to ministry, this conversation will stretch your imagination and ground you in the hope that God is already at work, inviting us to join in something new.

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Q4 Webinar: The Path from “I” to “We”: Extending Christian Community to the Neighborhood

Clara King: The big churches. The vibrant churches were like the front of the train. They were like the engines on the train. They were pulling the whole church along. And then there were all of these like tiny churches just being dragged along and financially supported by the by the big congregations. And there was this real sense by the big congregations, can't we just cut these guys loose and then we could move better as a train? I actually think that the truth is the other way around, that our small congregations, the whole train is moving in the other direction, and the small congregations actually show us really where our denominations, particularly in the mainline Protestant denominations, many of us work in dying denominations. Our small churches actually show us our future. And so rather than being the sort of wayward black sheep of the family, and if only we could help them become like our vibrant big churches, we can actually see this growing number of congregations that need to be supported in new models of ministry. We can actually see them as the future, as the sort of field of innovation for lessons that every church is going to need to learn in its time.

Alicia Granholm: Today on this show, as we look across the landscape of the church today, there is a significant and increasing gap between the number of open pulpits and the seminary trained clergy available to fill them. This is a moment when the church needs to discover both ancient and new models of leadership development and deployment. Our guest today, the Reverend Clara King, has long been experimenting with cultivating a lay led, clergy supported model of church. Hello everyone. I'm Alicia Granholm.

Dwight Zscheile: And I'm Dwight Zscheile. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how to follow God into a faithful future by equipping all God's people to love and lead in the way of Jesus. We're excited to welcome Clara King as our guest. Clara is a priest, researcher and equipper in the Anglican Church of Canada who has served in northeast Calgary. She's a PhD candidate in practical theology at Fuller Seminary and is working on an approach to teaching adaptive leadership with Anglican, United and Presbyterian churches in Canada. Welcome, Clara.

Clara King: Thanks very much. A pleasure to be with you guys today.

Alicia Granholm: We're so happy to have you. Clara, why don't you start by telling us a little bit more about maybe the circumstances that have led more and more churches to consider empowering lay people to take on roles that, at least in the recent past, have mostly been done by professional clergy.

Clara King: Yeah. Thanks very much. Um, I mean, there are so many different aspects of this that are conspiring against sort of a traditional model of church in which you, uh, a congregation would work hard in order to kind of, like, plant themselves. I'm talking 100 years ago. You'd work hard, plant yourself, get yourself a church building. Maybe all your neighbors would come together and build a church. And then finally, you would have your clergy person. And having ticked all of those boxes, there was this sense that you could kind of hand it all on to future generations and that therefore your community would have a church. I mean, that is really the story across, uh, across the prairies in America and Canada. Um, and, uh, and it's actually a story that goes back a long way. Um, more than a hundred years in other parts of, of our countries. Um, other parts of the English speaking world. And the idea of those for mothers and for fathers in the faith was that having achieved, you know, getting your congregation up and running and having your church building and having your your minister, your pastor, your priest? Um, that was like the hard work. And now it would just continue on in perpetuity. And that's actually not at all the way that it is working for us all these days. Um, so a whole pile of different things are happening. Obviously, there are cultural changes about Christianity within the North American cultural context, and there are changes in demographics. A lot of our churches were planted in rural communities. Some of those grew up and became big cities. A lot of them didn't. And now we're going through large scale urbanization, this movement from the rural communities to the cities. Um, certainly in my own diocese, when I started doing work empowering lay people. Um, possibly 60% of our congregations were in rural and small town communities. So this issue of urbanization is really who who is the next generation to hand on the family farm, to hand on the community church? Um, they've all moved to the city and it's unclear that they're coming back. And so all of these things are related that mean that more and more of our congregations are actually very small churches. Uh, I believe that the statistic for a small church is 100 people in the Canadian Anglican context. Um, most of our churches have less than 100 people. Uh, and I've worked with congregations that very vibrant congregations that have 30 people or that have 12 people. Uh, not so vibrant when they have five people. Um, and so all of these things make it difficult to, to keep the finances of the church organized, to keep the volunteer positions of the church staff, to run the fundraisers that used to keep us afloat in the past. At the same time, of course, fewer people are going to seminary. Fewer people have a real vision, a sort of high vision and imagination for Christian ministry in our denominations. And all of these things are conspiring to mean that the fewer and fewer lay people who are part of a growing number of small churches have fewer and fewer clergy who might be willing to come and work with them. And so when I started doing this work, there was a persistent sense that the the big churches, the vibrant churches were like the front of the train. They were like the engines on the train. They were pulling the whole church along. And then there were all of these like tiny churches just being dragged along and financially supported by the by the big congregations. And there was this real sense by the big congregations, can't we just cut these guys loose and we could move better as a train? I actually think that the truth is the other way around, that our small congregations, the whole train is moving in the other direction, and the small congregations actually show us really where our denominations, particularly in the mainline Protestant denominations, many of us work in dying denominations. Our small churches actually show us our future. And so rather than being the sort of wayward black sheep of the family, and if only we could help them become like our vibrant big churches, we can actually see this growing number of congregations that need to be supported in new models of ministry. We can actually see them as the future, as the sort of field of innovation for lessons that every church is going to need to learn in its time. I'm an Anglican priest in Canada. I believe that my denomination is dying, and so ten years from now, our vibrant city churches would be great if there were some lessons that they had access to that we had learned really well and done really well with these little rural congregations. So I think they present the future for us. They think they ask us the questions that are related to our future and that are related to things like what is the what are the conditions under which the church could be a vibrant community of discipleship or apostolic community in the future? If we can answer those questions with very small lay led congregations, fantastic. Then we have some resources that can work for the vibrant city churches ten years from now, when they're more like these small congregations.

Dwight Zscheile: Clara, I'd love to build on that line of thought a little bit. Um, you know, one of the key pivots we talk a lot about on this podcast is this shift from primarily clergy led, lay supported ministry to primarily lay led, clergy supported ministry. And you use the word vibrant quite a bit, um, so far. And I'd love to to hear some stories of what that what vibrant, um, ministry looks like in a primarily lay led, uh, clergy supported. Even if the clergy support is regional, not local. Right. Um, and so, so paint us a bit of a picture about about what that might look like. And if there's some stories that you have of times when that's worked well.

Clara King: Um, what can it look like? There's a, there's a beautiful book that's called Born of Water, Born of Spirit. Uh, was published maybe in the early in the mid-aughts. Um, and and it really, uh, was such an eye opener for me about shifting from numerical vibrancy. So measuring vibrancy of a church in terms of bums in pews, average Sunday attendance, donations, these sorts of things to really change our, change. The eyes that we see the church with and really look with our eyes, but with our hearts. Um, to see what sort of vibrancy of community life there is in a community. And this can be we can have very, very vibrant, very small churches. Um, so, for instance, many large churches experience this thing that a small percentage of the congregation do all of the work. Well, in a small church, you've kind of gotten rid of all the extra people that surround that group, and you really do just have the bare bones of that internal center of volunteers, the sort of in the 80, 20 congregations. Well, now we're just left with the 20. Um, and when that group of 20 people or 30 or 15 functions really beautifully together, one of the best examples that I have was a congregation that. Uh, had been had been declining for a long time, and we've done several different things to see if, if maybe we could, uh, inculcate a new model of ministry. And they decided, actually, no, we it's time for us to, um, it's time for us to disestablish as a congregation. And so I walked with them through this process of disestablishing. We had people doing the administrative side of things, the ecclesiastical side of things. And I said, I really want to work with them on this as an experience of spiritual, of spiritual discernment and of of discipleship. So I visited with them on several different occasions and really talked with them, had them talk about their memories, did these beautiful things, and they were so willing to go there. They were so vulnerable with each other. There was so much love. There was so much care and compassion for one another. In the midst of these very difficult decisions. For an Anglican church to Disestablish can be about 18 months. That's a prolonged period of pain and suffering together. Once you've made a hard decision and then you have to make successive hard decisions, what do you do with the plaques on the pews that acknowledge former members of the church and this community? Went through it with so much honor and dignity in the best way. Like this open hearted, emotionally available care for one another. And by the time they disestablished, it felt like they were a church plant. And it was such a transformation. In in how they related to themselves as a people of faith, that they had transitioned from a congregation that was actively dying into a community of faith that really felt the presence of God with them and were experiencing sort of a spirit of resurrection in their midst. And I was about to leave my position in the diocese and begin my journey on my PhD. And I said to the people who were taking on that work, um, I think that this could become a house church or a church plant. Um, just so long as we never burden them with a building again. And so that was such a powerful experience. Um. Of really having this transformation in the vibrancy, the vitality of a community. Another example of a of a clergy supported, lay led, uh, community, uh, was this colleague that I had who for years had been a half time minister. I really feel like we, uh, we don't have as much imagination for what half time clergy can do. Um, because half time clergy need special boundaries. And if you can work to create those boundaries with a community, there's a lot of potential. I sort of feel seminary. We should be helping people figure out what would a half time ministry look like? Um. She created extremely healthy boundaries with her community, and she was extremely clear about she had been trained as a Lutheran pastor. Maybe this is why she was so good at it. Um, she was extremely clear with them about what their responsibilities were and then what the consequences of their decisions were. She did not rescue them from the consequences of her decisions, of their decisions. And she was very responsible for her own actions and was a real lifelong learner type. But that congregation had to visit that congregation was to really experience a congregation that like. Owned their stuff. They really, um, they really understood how to organize themselves, how to come together around a difficult, ambiguous decision, how to surface the challenges that they face. This was a small town congregation, particularly before the pandemic. Um, this was an area of, of our province that had very inadequate, um. Um, internet. And so the diocese was sort of saying, oh, fantastic, more stuff on the internet, more stuff on the internet. And this community was so clear about communicating, um, the ways in which their community could not be served, um, through online, online togetherness. And they didn't get emotional about it. They were just very clear. They knew what their needs were, and they were really people of discipleship. So they were on this very intentional journey of discipleship and everything that they did together. They considered from the perspective of, of really being an apostolic community. She had inculcated that with them over 20 years and. That was a product of their relationship, the two sides really coming together. She asked them to step up and invited them to do so. They responded to her invitation and said yes. And then they figured out that relationship in this really vibrant way, in a way that she continued to allow them to make decisions and bear the responsibility for those. She continued with them to seek what God was doing in their midst. Such a beautiful experience to be with that group of people.

Alicia Granholm: Thank you so much for sharing those stories, Clara. Um, I'm curious, you know, uh, so I love hearing, you know, that example. And then, um, I can imagine, uh, that you've encountered, um, maybe some clergy that of a perhaps different mindset that have maybe more, um, fear or hesitation about empowering laypeople in this way. And, uh, we'd just love to know, how do you respond to, um, you know, the hesitation or fear that that kind of bubbles up? Um, with maybe, uh, different clergy?

Clara King: There are two ways that I sort of think about this. Um. And and the two ways are. I want us to imagine for for a moment, let's let's imagine that a really warm hearted, well-intentioned, good, good, faithful, enthusiastic person has just graduated from seminary, and she gets her first, maybe or her second congregation. And she is really convicted by I'm going to empower laity. And so she goes and she really tries to empower laity. And it starts going sideways. And she can't figure out how it's going sideways, and she can't figure out how to stop it. And there's conflicts and there's bad behavior, and maybe there are bad decisions being taken and it feels like everything is going off the rails. But she can't figure out how to fix it. And at a certain point in time, um, she realizes that actually something needs to change here. And so then she takes a step. To bring things back. And in doing so she makes a sort of snatching movement after some control in the congregation. I have seen variations on this theme with experienced clergy who were trained, you know, maybe clergy who have been in congregational ministry for 30 years. But now we're all talking about empowering laity. And they go, oh, I think this would be a great idea. So with experienced clergy, with new clergy, with men, with women, I've seen this in a number of different denominations, and I've heard stories. When we talk about what it means to empower laity need to be a little bit more precise because really wonderful, good hearted, faithful people sometimes make this movement where they kind of eviscerate all of their leadership and kind of throw it out there like popcorn or like candy in a parade to see who will catch it. And the first people who catch it. Oh, what a great thing. Often the first people who will catch an opportunity like that are not necessarily the laypeople that we should be empowering. They're not infrequently the people who are the most easily empowered, who are readiest to be empowered. And in a lot of communities, these are some variety of dysfunctional or antagonistic people in the community that if the leader gives signals that they're willing to eviscerate themselves of their power and leadership. These are the people who are ready to take advantage of that opportunity. And so I've seen this a number of times. People get on board with the lay empowerment bandwagon. They throw away their power. Then it unfolds in very idealistic ways. And then they feel like they don't really know what to do next, and they don't have strategies for it. The strategies that they do have are based on models of clergy control. So when they try to fix the problem, they and possibly everyone who is advising them up to and including their judicatory leaders, their bishops, whoever, their mentors, professors from seminary, who are they going to ask what to do next? The most likely answer is that they're going to get are some form of snatching back power from the laity. For the lay people in the congregation who've been watching to see how this might play out. The lay people who we actually probably 80% of our congregations, who we should be working to empower. When the clergy person snatches back power that way. It says something to those lay people that the clergy didn't really mean it. And now the clergy have become afraid. Because various different, inappropriate, dysfunctional or even sometimes dangerous things have happened in that moment of, oh, I'll just give it all away. So now the clergy person is afraid, and now the wrong people in the church are empowered. Once you have one bad experience like this, depending on how bad it went before the snatching happened. Once you have one bad experience like this, you really now have set everybody on a very, very difficult path. And if the Minister is going to try again, they need to be equipped with a certain set of skills to make sure it doesn't go the same way as last time. A lot of clergy who have tried that won't try it again, because now they know what lay empowerment feels like, and it was a bad experience for everybody in the church. And we're not going to do that again. And we all feel safer doing this thing. So for instance. A congregation that, uh, that I knew, um, that was actually in the middle of of trying an experience of lay leadership. And they had a new regional person come in and come around to support them. But every other congregation that this regional person was serving. Was treating this regional person as the priest of a multipoint parish, because that was their imagination. And this one church was this lay led was experimenting with this lay lead model of ministry. As the clergy person came around, it was an experienced clergy person. So the person had experience in parish ministry and was being treated as a multipoint parish minister in every other point of point of this regional setup. And so all of that was activating all of these expectations that this minister had about what their role was. And so when they started interacting with this lay led congregation. They didn't know how to interact with these lay people who were really empowered. And it felt very threatening to this minister. And so this minister went around making some movements to empower laity in all these different churches. It wasn't really and at this one lay lead congregation, they ended up converting them into a pattern of dependency. And basically returning them to a pattern of clericalism and that congregation that was a really painful and and harmful experience for this little church, and that congregation never really recovered from it, as far as I know. And so when we talk about how things can go wrong. And how things can go wrong for clergy. There's a couple of reasons why things can go wrong for clergy. Um, one is that most of us, before we have the opportunity to to to support laity in their ministry, we have to demonstrate that we've been formed in the clerical model. Right. So that's mostly our our curacies. We have to demonstrate that we know the stuff according to the traditional model. And if we know our stuff well, and we prove that we know our stuff well, maybe we'll get an opportunity to do more, you know, exciting things. And so we're very shaped in the clerical model. We're a deeply informed by what it looks like for clergy to use their power. And that's really our horizon of imagination. Many for many clergy, that is the horizon of imagination, how they understand their vocation, what good ministry looks like. And our congregations have been formed in the same thing. It takes an enormous amount of creativity for a congregation to explore a lay led model of ministry. And it's a very vulnerable thing for a long first period, because it can so easily feel like failure. And that congregation, until they get themselves more established, start being able to articulate why this is a really beautiful, beautiful experience for them. There are so many beautiful things that can happen for a congregation in terms of vibrancy of moving into a lay led model. Until they start to have a bit of confidence in that and they can push back. They're very, very vulnerable and this can be for years. To any sense that, in fact, a clergy person could help them do it better. And clergy. People can be very vulnerable to the idea that they are the best thing for a congregation, and this can produce all these sorts of things as well as, as I say, one bad experience can turn people off. And then we all retreat to safety in the thing that we've known best for hundreds of years.

Dwight Zscheile: So, you know, the professional clerical model, of course, isn't the only model, certainly historically in the life of the church and also in the world today, in a lot of places where the church is actually thriving and growing. Apostolically, that's not the model. So, um, tell us a bit about some other sources, other maybe moments in church history or biblical sources or global examples that we should be considering, um, to reframe our imagination into a more helpful model right now.

Clara King: So, so for myself, um, so for myself. Obviously it's it's such a, it's such a thing for us now to be like, oh, the early church. Um, for myself, uh, it's Peter who is such a inspiration for me in this journey. Um, I love the story of Peter, and we we, um, there's a little bit of violence that we do to the story of Peter, because we split Luke from acts, and then the next time that we really sort of encounter Peter, except in letters of Paul, are in the, the Petrine epistles, by which time we're actually seeing him at the sort of like top of his game. And so it mostly we have like these gospel portraits, very rich gospel portraits, and then a lot of transformation that seems to happen behind the scenes. And then we get somebody like at the high point of their career. There's a transformation that happens for Peter in the gap between and it's not really a gap, but in the space between Luke and Acts. And I love that, um, as an inspiration for what it looks like to move beyond having a clergy supported, uh, model of ministry and trying to figure out what it feels like to have the, the, let's say, the ordinary people of the church understand their call to ministry in a new way. When Peter denied Christ. He had a very inadequate imagination for what kind of ministry he was actually called to. We see again and again in the gospel stories that Peter gets it wrong. He doesn't really know why Jesus is called him. He keeps thinking he has it right and Jesus has to keep saying to him, you've got it wrong, buddy. And we see him try, like in this very he really reminds me of, of a teenager really trying to learn and be like, I think I've got it. And Peter and Jesus again and again saying, not yet, you don't understand yet. And on the night that Jesus was betrayed, there's Peter saying, I will go with you to your death. And Jesus like, no, you won't, buddy. And it's like less than 24 hours later, less than 24 hours later, it's that evening and before the cock crows for dawn the next day. And there is Peter sort of revealing this, the worst moment of his character. What happens from the time that Peter denies Jesus until acts chapter three? Is this extraordinary transformation in Peter's understanding of what it means that he has been called to be a leader? And as I say, we get the gap between the the Gospels and the acts of the apostles there and makes it a little bit difficult to fill the space in. So acts chapter three would have been shortly after Pentecost. Um, and Peter's denial of Jesus, of course, happened. So we're talking about like, what? What is that? Three months in the life of a young person, two months in the life of a young person. And what I think we see in acts chapter three is Peter having this profound sense of humility. That God, his work of leadership, is to present himself in a space like the portico of the temple. And to create an opportunity for God to do a thing. It's not to manufacture that thing or manage the crowds or be all, you know, all. Peter, like his character in acts chapter three, is completely different. He understands the depth of humility that it takes to be this leader, and he doesn't even yet really start to know what that means. And he's starting to see what the Holy Spirit is going to do through him. And he's starting to realize that God's action is different from his action. God's action is much, much bigger than Peter's action. What a beautiful story for us. For a guy who ends up becoming one of the great patriarchs of the early church. And what I love about that story is really this sense that what are we called to as clergy, as laity is really to participate in a work that God is doing in the world that's not specific to any one person or one group within the church. And Peter's story. Peter rose into that position of leadership over time, he had to figure it out. We read in letters of Paul. He often backslid and he had to learn it again. He had to be called on his stuff. Um, there's a great idea that we have four versions of Peter's denial of Christ, because Peter preached that story again and again. I love that idea. Doesn't matter if it's historically correct, but I love the idea that we have that story because Peter told it as a way of what Christ had done in his own life. That's not specific to any particular minister ministry class. That's our real discipleship journey as a group of people. And so. If. If the Holy Spirit can do that work in Peter's life. I couldn't Holy Spirit do that work in the lives of all of the members of our congregations. And there have been moments in the life of the church when you have an active public group who really have found that space, and then it puts the the role of the clergy in their proper position in regard to a really, really vibrant congregation that now the clergy are serving the work of the of the work of God in that community, in the lives of the clergy. I mean, this is happening. This is all of our lives of discipleship and that God is doing the work and we are trying to participate in it. Those few occasions when that's happened and the few occasions when I've been part of it myself, um, those are transformative experiences in community.

Alicia Granholm: Thanks, Clara. Um, it brings to mind, uh, two questions. Um, you know, how does empowering lay people and pastoral ministry really align with or maybe challenge traditional church power structures? And, um, you know, for you, how have you navigated, uh, maybe differences in theological perspectives around this issue as well?

Clara King: I really like working on the on the dying edge of denominations and in spaces that are really, really difficult because it, it really it really gives a sort of fire of innovation. Um, I like working with congregations who are at the point of saying, we have no idea what's left to do. We're going to die if we don't get to try things. And, um, and I feel really privileged to be in ministry doing this work at a time when there are denominations that are dying because I think it it brings a spirit of willingness, um, to, to try new things and a spirit of awareness of how our polities and our denominational structures can interfere with innovation. I don't think that I and others could do this work. At other times when the church was, for instance, I don't know what was happening in the in the Anglican or Episcopal church, like at the high point of, you know, of sort of success and, and, and strength and power. And we have 800 kids in our Sunday school and, you know, then you have opportunities for other kind of work. But these are the opportunities that call us and invite us and create space for real innovation in terms of polity. I have seen that eagerness for innovation across denominations. So, for instance, I have a classmate who's a Southern Baptist, former Southern Baptist pastor, and I was telling a story about a tiny, dysfunctional church and, you know, on the prairies, little Anglican church. And he came up to me afterwards and he said, um, the story that you told is exactly why I left my role as a pastor of a Southern Baptist megachurch. And so these situations couldn't be any more different. But the challenges that we face are structural at such a broad level that, again, just as I said, the train is going the other way and our tiny churches give us an opportunity for our larger churches in the same way, um, our dying denominations offer creative and innovative space for things that other aspects of the of the church may experience. Um, at other moments. Understand that there are the early signs of the evangelical denominations facing many of the same sort of denominational or, um, uh, patterns as we face 30 years ago. The demographic patterns are starting to mimic what we face. And if it is the case that other denominations face decline, why can't we have been the innovators for things that we can learn and experiment with to figure out how God is present not only in triumph, but also in these times when we're close to the grave. That's actually where our God works. That's the skill set that our God has. So why wouldn't we go looking for God there?

Dwight Zscheile: So, you know, I'm really struck by the theological turn that you made in that comment right there around God actually showing up in these places of loss and disintegration, chaos, vulnerability and all of that. And, um, it reminds me just of, of really a foundation for this conversation around thinking about the agency of God in the midst of all of this, that if we think it's we have to fix it. It's all up to us spiritually. Clergy put that burden on themselves or have that expectation placed upon them that can be really soul crushing in many ways. But the hopeful stories that you've described, your stories in which the Holy Spirit is recognized to be at work among the whole people of God, and then we're joining in. So for our clergy listeners, um, what are maybe 2 or 3 key things that you would encourage them to do if they want to move toward really genuinely empowering and equipping lay leaders in their contexts to live into this different paradigm.

Clara King: There's a beautiful book that was written, I don't know, in the 80s, 70s, and it's called Rediscovering Christianity A Famous story. This little book, uh, famous story about this, uh, I believe he was a Catholic missionary going to Africa for the first time. And it's a real story about him learning about his own faith and being transformed in his own faith by having this encounter with the Messiah. I feel like clergy need to learn to look at our laity, our own dysfunctional, beautiful human, ordinary laity, and to say, this is the beloved people of God right here in all their mess. I work in a space with a lot of bullies. Abusers and narcissists are in the church and God knows that about us. And God is working in those exact same spaces. It doesn't contradict the gospel. And so in the middle of all of our beautiful, horrible human mass right here, what? How could we have a theological imagination for God at work that for clergy could change our understanding of how God works? In my research project right now, I'm giving a case study, um, about a conflict between a minister and a lay person. And it's producing all of these stories about what this can look like. It can look like we can't choose a color to paint the sanctuary without members leaving our churches. Somebody told a story about the who orders the filters for the coffee percolator. Um, how do we choose, uh, a supplier for the office printer paper? I am not joking. I heard one the other day that was a congregation that was melting down around their teaspoons. So we think, actually, this is the beloved people of God. This is the seed bed for the apostolic community. And I don't believe that that's narcissistic or sort of navel gazing. I think that's the the beginning level of sort of a Jenga tower. If we can find how God is working here, then we can begin together discerning how God is calling us to something beyond. But if we're stuck on the teaspoons, we're going to have a very difficult time adequately discerning what God is calling our community to in the wider world, especially like we want to do racial justice work. Okay, well, let's just start with the teaspoons. Um, and so I really feel that's a place to start to get actually almost a little breathlessly claustrophobic. Some of the stories in the Gospels in the epistles are breathlessly claustrophobic. These very intimate, real human spaces in which God is there, the Son of God is there. The Spirit of God is in these spaces. What would it look like for us to proclaim, not only with our lips, but in our lives, that God actually is here? That the work of transformation that the Holy Spirit offers us is always just one step away from where we are right now. What would it look like for a community that is melting down over the teaspoons? To find some way of understanding what transformation that represents, that they all need in their lives, and to go on that journey and to follow that path and to see where God led. We have have no idea what's going on for that congregation where those teaspoons are going to lead them, but it's a sign of an opportunity that God could use to be at work. That's what I feel like if we see those conflicts microscopic as they are, it's real opportunities. That's the Holy Spirit would like for us to experience transformation and to really get out of the way. I am not the one who will know what transformation is needed here, and that is not my job. My job is to open the space for God to do a work in the midst of this people, and possibly also including my own life. And what would it look like for me to, um, really open that space and hold open that space for this people? That's a very vulnerable space. And so the first thing for clergy who want to do this work is to say, what holds you back from asking that question? And what would it look like for you to say, why do I feel anxious, afraid, or nervous about this? And what is the work that the Holy Spirit would like to do for me? Before. I'm ready to ask that congregation that question. That would be the place to start.

Alicia Granholm: Thanks for that, Clara. Uh, Rediscovering Christianity is one of my favorite books. Um, what? I one of the things I love about Vincent Donovan's own transformation. Right? Is this, um, as he goes out as a missionary, he he really understands his calling as, uh, evangelizing the Catholic Church, right? The forms, all the things of it. And then right through his, uh, journey, uh, rediscovering that. No, in fact, his call is to share the gospel and what the Holy Spirit decides to do in and amongst the people is up to the Holy Spirit. That's not his job. His job is to share the good news of Jesus and let the Holy Spirit, you know, really, uh, to to move and breathe in the life of the people, um, who, who he gets to interact with. Um, not the specific form of Western Catholicism, uh, that he initially imagines that he, um, you know, that that's the point of evangelism, in fact. No, it's not, uh, it really is. How can I trust the Holy Spirit to to lead and guide me, but also others, uh, and not, um, uh, feel the need to, um, to bring the particulars of what Christianity is supposed to look like. Um, and really let context, uh, inform that and trust the Holy Spirit to show up.

Clara King: And what I love about about this is that it's clear when we think, oh, he was a missionary, but what if we're actually called to be missionaries like that? This lots have been has been made about the idea of like the domestic mission field. And I, you know, I mean, yes, sure, we can be out converting the nuns all we want and, you know, but but actually, there's this space that a lot of Christian churches, um, sort of need to be re evangelized. And I don't mean because they have become wayward and they're of the devil. Now, what I actually mean is that a lot of our ecclesiastical ecclesiological practices have made it difficult for ordinary members of the church who really would like to, to figure out what their journey of discipleship looks like and what a collective journey of discipleship looks like. And I think people are really hungry for that. I think clergy are hungry to be part of communities like that. And the question for us as missioners is to figure out what would it look like to say, wow, God could make that community happen in the midst of this community? And what are the what are the tiny seedlings that God might already have planted? And beginning with my work of saying not. God does not invite us to something like we don't have to. What is the passage from Deuteronomy? You do not have to fly up to heaven. You do not have to go to the depths of the sea. It is actually already it is in your mouth to receive it. It is already in your heart to do it. And that, I really believe, is is the sort of. That's the passage for the church today. The new life that we aspire for is actually so close to us that sometimes we can't even recognize it.

Alicia Granholm: Well, thank you so much for being here today, Clara. We have loved having you on the Pivot podcast.

Clara King: Thanks very much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Alicia Granholm: And to our audience, thank you so much for joining us today. If you have lay leaders in your congregation that you would love to develop, we have a school for lay ministry at Faith lead, and you can learn more about that at Faith lead org to help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps. And finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share pivot with a friend. Until next time. This is Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile signing off. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.