Tom Pepperdine interviews Sunday Times best selling author, Lissa Evans, about her writing process. Lissa discusses the importance of libraries and research, how she approaches complex characters, and why it takes over two years for her to finish a manuscript.

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https://www.lissaevans.com

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Hello, and welcome to The Real Writing Process, the show that finds

out how authors do exactly what they do.

I'm your host Tom Pepperdine, and this week my guest is the author of some great

historical comedy novels, Lissa Evans.

Lissa is most well known for her book Their Finest Hour and a Half, which was

made into the excellent film Their Finest, starring Gemma Arterton and Bill Nighy.

However, Lissa has also had a series of other fantastic novels set during

the war and the post war period.

Her latest, Small Bomb at Dimperley, is a look at the aristocracy coming

to terms with the post war world.

It's a lot of fun, and some beautifully written characters, and has received

praising taglines from the likes of Daisy Goodwin and Graham Norton.

Honestly, her books are very much worth your time, but also, so is this interview.

Lissa is a lot of fun to talk to, and I think this will be a

favourite episode for many of you.

Because one of the great things about Lissa is that she's a procrastinator.

And I know releasing this episode at the start of November means

that some of you are attempting National Novel Writing Month.

Or maybe you bear the scars of attempting it in the past.

However, this chat with Lissa should put all that to bed.

A story takes as long as it takes, and you can feel unproductive

but still be making progress.

May this interview act as a soothing balm to your anxieties.

As Mark Kermode is known to say, it'll be alright in the end, and

if it's not, then it's not the end.

Anyway, it's not the end, it's the start, right after this jingle.

And this week I'm here with Lissa Evans.

Lissa, hello.

Hello.

Thank you for being on the show, and my first question as

always is, what are we drinking?

Well, I'm, I'm sorry about this, Tom.

We're drinking my own particular vice, which is a Yorkshire

jam and toast flavour.

And you can blame that on my friend Tom Shakespeare.

And I go right at Tom's house every couple of weeks, which I'm

sure we'll talk about, and he had a packet of this in his cupboard,

and I tried one, and I was hooked.

It's almost like eating something.

Well, it's funny on the same season.

We have another writer who has the biscuit brew of the same thing.

So it Yes.

like this season sponsored by Yorkshire tea.

It's not, but glad I've managed to do the whole, the whole range.

It's the aftertaste.

Because this is my very first taste.

I'm just having it now.

Because I could smell it and I was like, oh, there's definitely a raspberry hint

on there, like a bit of a herbal tea.

But yeah, it's that sweetness.

So it's like if you have tea with sugar, you don't need it with this tea.

But yeah, I'm getting a lot of jam, not so much toast.

You don't have to pretend you like it, Tom, I can tell.

well, it's my, my wife was just like, do we have to have it in the house?

you like the book that much that she has to be on the show?

I nearly said gin and tonic, but I, I, um, I don't often drink in the evening,

so I thought I'd have my regular brew.

No, no, no, no, that's fine.

No, I don't hate it.

Uh, I will finish this.

I'm not going to drink many more.

Um, I've had lots of herbal teas and licorice tea on this.

I don't mind it.

But this is your everyday drink?

Yeah, I have at least one or two mugs a day.

But I mean, I also have standard Yorkshire tea as well.

Three or four cups, very much a tea drinker.

And where I'm speaking to you now, is this your writing spot in your house?

No.

The only time I ever wrote here was during lockdown.

Okay.

So what, where's your go to place to write?

Um, usually the London Library, which is a member's

library, near Piccadilly.

And I'm, I'm there most days of the week.

But it all depends on whether writing's going well or not.

If I'm having a, a dry spell.

I'll shift venues and go to a cafe or the British library or the Keats Grove

library which is near me in London or a friend's living room or upstairs at the

National Theatre or the coffee shop just around the corner from me in Kentish Town.

Somewhere to get it all moving again.

So, uh, you definitely need to have a separate workspace?

I really do.

Yeah, I mean I didn't when I wrote my first book, I was single, living on my

own, so I wrote at home, no distractions.

But you know, I've now got a husband and dog and children.

You have to get out.

And doing lockdown, I found it almost impossible.

Yeah, it's interesting because some people often like writing out

in public because of the hustle and bustle as a white noise, but do you

really get that in like the Library?

No, I like, I like silence.

Or I occasionally listen to music.

But no, no, I don't like hustle and bustle.

But I guess that's just such a, a muse of the literary

greats surrounding you.

Do you know, the London Library is, is really lovely, and

the only reason I, I went there, so I was a student, I was in Newcastle.

And I was a medical student originally, and not really

doing as much work as I should.

And a friend told me about a members library called the Literary and

Philosophical Society, which is just above the station in Newcastle, still

exists, Very cheap members library.

Absolutely extraordinary.

And when I started going there in the early 80s, not only was there a tea bar,

right in the middle of the library, and after hours, after the tea bar is shut,

the library would stay open and there would be flasks there with an honesty box.

Not only that, you could smoke, Tom.

You could smoke.

So you could, you know, flick through a first, a first edition of The Leveler's

Track while, while having a fag.

And, um, and so that, that sold members libraries.

I mean, you can't anymore, I hasten to add.

So when I heard about this one in, in London, I, I eventually joined, yeah.

That's great.

And I guess because you often write period pieces and historical fiction,

having the reference materials close to hand is quite a benefit.

Did you find that there was a particular reference material that

you would go back to a particular book or a series that you found useful?

Yeah.

Every, every book's got its own particular source.

But I mean my first two books were roughly contemporary, they were set in the 90s.

But when I wanted to write a book about behind the scenes and

filming what kept on playing in my head was the Second World War.

Because I'd been interested in the Home Front since I was about,

well, I think I can pin it down.

I was 13.

Mm hmm.

My big sister gave a book called How We Lived Then to my

Father for a Christmas present.

And it was a book of reminiscences about the home front.

And my father quite correctly said Why do I need to read this?

I lived through it.

And he's actually been a scientist during the war So he had lived through

the home front as an adult and I took that book and it's not a political book,

It's a book of detail, and I loved it.

Loved it.

You know, what, what, what did people put in their kids Christmas stockings?

What did you feed pets on?

Where did you go on holiday?

You know?

And I absolutely loved it.

I read it and reread it as a teenager.

And it gave me a kind of baseline of knowledge about the home front.

Almost as if I had memories of my own.

So that when I started researching, I already had a basic knowledge of it.

So then I set out and I found a different source for every book.

Well, it was, it was all serendipity, really.

When I, I decided to write a book about making a film during World War II.

Because I thought, what was it, what was it like then?

And I found a, a quote by a Between the Wars actor called Leslie

Arliss, and he said, " Once work begins in studio, nothing outside

is of any relative importance."

And I thought, God, that's so true.

You know, you just think it's so important when you're in telly.

And I started thinking, well, what about when something really

important was going on outside?

What when bombs were dropping outside?

Did people, did it still take 13 people to decide on the

colour of the leading man's tie?

And I started researching, and I thought, yes, yes indeed it did, and

that behind the scenes was unchanged.

So I, started thinking, where can I research this?

And I went to the British Film Institute library, and I went to the Imperial

War Museum library, and there was a very stern librarian in charge then.

I came across him a couple of times.

And he had what I'm calling the opposite of a can do attitude.

You know, he's always pretty certain you wouldn't be able to

find what you're looking for.

And I said to him, Oh, I'm, you know, I just want to find out a bit about filming.

He said, Oh, I don't think we've got anything like that.

And I was pottering on the shelves and then he came up to me and said, But we

do have the archive of Sidney Bernstein.

And by then I'd done enough work go and say, Oh, Sidney Bernstein,

Head of the Film Division, Ministry of Information, World War II.

And he said yes, and he brought me three boxes, and honestly, when Sidney

Bernstein left at the end of World War II.

They must have just tipped the contents of his filing cabinet

into these boxes because it was untouched for, you know, 50 years.

And it was absolutely brilliant.

It gave me everything I needed for that film.

It was, uh, comments from cinema managers about how awful the

British films were, how people were booing the informational shorts.

It was full of colour and interest and immediacy.

And that was, that was my source for that one.

And each of my books has got a central core, which I've been

able to rely on and build from.

So yeah, I mean, that's one of my questions.

I always like to ask is, you know, was there like a kernel that started the idea

for your, you know, your latest project?

And yeah.

And, um, I mean, we can talk about whatever you're writing at the

moment, or the book that's just come out, Small Bomb at Dimpley.

Well, what happened with Small Bomb at Dimpley, Um, I had written,

after this book about film, Their Finest Hour and a Half, I wrote

what turned out to be a trilogy, though I didn't intend to do that.

The first one was about, um, an evacuee in Second World War who ends up in the

house of a sort of grifter, a woman who's no better than she ought to be.

And they start doing a scamming fake charity in the, in, in

suburbs of London during the Blitz.

And then, because I love those characters, and because I've introduced

other characters I wanted to write about, I leapt backwards and wrote

about this small boy's godmother, who was a former suffragette in the 20s.

And then I leapt forward and wrote about the end of the war, and

brought all the characters together.

So, that book, that last book of the trilogy, called V for Victory, ends on

VE Day, the last day of the European War.

And so I thought, OK, I've written last four books, three of them,

have been set during the war.

I think I need to move on a little bit.

Why does it write about after the war?

Yeah.

And so I started fiddling around and I read there's a marvellous historian

called David Kynaston, and I started reading his Austerity Britain, which

is about the period after the war.

And I was kept on thinking, which is very, very interesting, very, very interesting.

Where's the drama?

Where's the drama?

And then I just came across a paragraph about The Marquess of Bath opening

Longleat to the public in the late 40s.

And I suddenly thought, oh, I can write about that.

there's something.

And that was the start of it.

But then I, out of everything I've written, I think, it was

harder to, write these characters than any other book I've written.

Because I don't know anything about the upper classes.

You know, I, come middle class family, but I'm only one

generation away from poverty.

My father was a son of an unemployed miner.

My mother was a road worker's daughter.

And so it's easy for me to channel my way into the stories of people who

work or who are out of work or who have a certain degree of poverty, because

my family's always talked about it.

And, it's part of my psyche, really.

To be able to empathise with people who don't, who have to work

for a living, as most of us do.

But, but the idea of writing may I say, posho's Tom, was a big, big leap for me.

Because I thought, I've got to humanise these people.

I don't know any I mean, I'm old enough so that when I was a teenager,

even though I was a middle class girl who went to state school.

I didn't know anyone who went to a public school.

I was living provincially, but there wasn't this huge cohort of people

who do now go to private schools.

It was a much smaller proportion.

And I didn't meet anybody who went to public school until

I went to university myself.

And so it was a big old leap for me.

So my entry into that world really was, um, There was a diarist

called James Lees Milne who wrote diaries for about 40 odd years.

And he was an intensely snobbish.

He was a deeply unpleasant, very funny person who worked for the National, well

not funny person, but a funny writer, who worked for the National Trust.

And he started keeping diaries in the 40s.

He was invalided after the war, and he started working for the National Trust.

And National Trust had only been up a few years then, he had to visit these houses

and assess whether they were suitable or not to be taken to the National Trust

and, in fact, whether the people could endow them with enough money to make

it worthwhile for the National Trust.

And he started, uh, keeping diaries and publishing them.

And they're outrageously waspish and rude.

They were, he's got exquisite taste, but he also puts the boot at every

possible But also you get all these pictures, I mean, I'm sorry to laugh,

but you know, the Duchess of Norfolk's on her knees cleaning the staircase

because there were no servants, you know, and food being brought back from

the kitchen by very old butlers so it's stone cold by the time it gets there.

And you know, houses which really need a staff of 60 with

two people looking after them.

And it there was so much there.

That was my entry to, to this world.

And in fact I've got one chapter which is written by, I don't call

him James Lees Milton but it is him.

Yeah.

So that was my, that was my starting point.

And I had to find a way to, to humanise and believe in these

people, when I was writing.

That was my biggest challenge.

You know, you can write people to laugh at, but you also have to write people to

empathise with, or to follow the story.

And I, I partly did that by two of the main characters are, in a way, outsiders.

One is a woman who was evacuated to the house when it was a maternity

home, who comes from Hackney.

And the other is the fact that the, the youngest son of the house is basically

was known to school by a sticky visit and went to umberton Which the school

for boys need extra encouragement.

And now that we would realize that he's actually got severe dyslexia

but he just was regarded as thick.

And what what has happened is that he joins the army straight

after school And he's been at war for six years in the ranks.

Because he couldn't ever face doing written exams or, or

having to write written reports.

So he served as a corporal for six years, even though he is

a, you know, and now a baronet.

And so I, I was able to approach it from the outside and

learn to sympathize that way.

Yeah.

You can't write caricatures, you know, it's, it's expect

people to love them, you know.

Yeah, because these all complex human beings, they all have their thing.

And I think they do come across as very well realized

human beings, which is great.

And yeah, it's that the young's youngest son, so it's not the groomed

to be a baronet, you know, sort of like brother died in the war.

So it's then it's shoes he was never meant to fill.

Shoes

he's

never meant to, that's right.

But also it's Zena who's the working class woman who's there.

She realises, and it's something I realised too when I started

researching, that baronets are actually nowhere on the Knob's Ladder.

Absolutely nowhere.

There's the aristocracy up above there, I think there's barons,

marquises, lords and the rest of it.

The ones who are in the House of Lords.

And then, woo, woo, down the ladder, you've got baronets.

And yes, they're, they're sir and lady.

But really, I mean, they're, barely a blip on the ladder.

It's the participation medal of the aristocracy.

Yes, it really is.

The Pip, Squeak and Wilfred of the aristocracy.

That's right, yeah.

Um, yes.

Thank you for turning up.

Uh, you know,

that's right.

a peerage.

But yet they've still got the sense of privilege and the, uh, self belief.

So you start with a time period or like a situation, you know, sort

of like what happened after the war with this and you find these sources.

Then you start fleshing out the characters to find your way in.

When you're doing all of this, is this something that you're

just, percolating in your mind?

Or do you vigorously note take and do you have post its everywhere?

Do you keep a folder on your, on a laptop?

How do you map out your start?

I have endless, endless, endless community files.

Lots and lots and lots of research, and occasionally I print out the research.

But as I research, I tend to keep one file which I just call

inspiration, Tom, inspiration, which is just little paragraphs that,

you know, spark you, spark you.

But also I start writing little ideas for the plot, little character sketches,

maybe, or what I've done for my last three books is to write three or four

page treatments, enjoyable ones, you know.

To put in front of my editor, like a little taster.

So they don't necessarily end up with the book, but they give me the chance

to see where would the comedy be?

What would the rough shape of it be?

How would the characters mesh together?

So I tell bits and bobs of a story, little scenes, little bits of dialogue.

And then at some point I'll feel I'm ready to start and that's, that's it.

That's the moment you think, okay, yeah, I've got to start now.

I've got to stop mucking about now.

And I've got to start.

Well, once I start, the story really starts telling itself.

Because that's when new characters emerge, when the plot

really starts coming together.

I tend to write multiple character stories, and quite often I haven't thought

of half the characters before I begin.

And they emerge as I write.

well, I think it's what's so lovely about your writing style

is these multiple characters.

And there's not a clear Sort of like straight narrative from the start.

So that kind of makes sense that it's this kind of like, okay, let's bimble

along until it starts to gain focus.

Do you have an end point in mind.

When you're saying, okay, I've got to start, or is it still just like

rough stepping stones and it's like the ending will present itself once

I get into the flow of writing?

I've usually got an idea of what's at the other end.

But I'm building the bridge to get there stone by stone, you know, I,

and at the end very often changes.

I mean, I, I don't do the splurge write.

I don't do the 120, 000 words and then rewrite.

I have to get it all right as I go along.

So, it's very, very, very labour intensive.

I quite often will only do a couple of hundred words a day.

But by the time I get to the end of the book, It's more or less there and I don't

have to do much in terms of rewrites.

Because I have thought of every permutation.

I have self edited to the nth degree by the time I get to the end.

So this is why I can never teach writing because I can't

tell somebody else to do that.

It's a ridiculous way of doing it.

well, I think.

You know, so from all the writers I've interviewed, the danger with that style,

you're not alone, there are others, but the danger with that is when you come

across a plot where you either write yourself into a corner, or you decide

halfway through, this isn't working.

And I've got to kind of abandon this whole thread.

Does that happen often?

What, because I'm a very, very slow writer, what tends to happen is

that I will not be able to get into a chapter or I will not be able to

write a scene that I want to write.

And I will eventually, you know those Roombas, those hoovers, robot hoovers,

and they get into a corner and they go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and

then they find their way out again.

It's like that, so I will find I literally can't go forward.

And it's always because I'm going in the wrong direction.

And so what will happen if I back off and take another direction, or do the

complete opposite of what I was intending to do, I can find a way forward.

So that's how it works.

So what happens is I will actually almost stop writing for several weeks,

just be fiddling around, fiddling around, and very occasionally I can

jump forward to a future chapter, where I know what's going to happen.

And that's quite useful.

And then bridge the gap.

Okay.

But I write so slowly that I don't, on the whole, tend to write

stuff that I later have to discard, or at least not more than a few pages.

Because I guess then, so if you love the research, you love the

mapping out, but actually plotting a full like outline, you know, A to B

to C, it would be a nightmare for you.

It just wouldn't suit how I try to write, because I want two things.

I want everything to be believable, but I also don't want it to be predictable.

And I can only do that by writing it.

Because once I'm in the character's heads, I often find out that stuff I have

planned, I just can't make them do it.

They won't, you know, it doesn't fit with the character that I am then writing.

I might have this sensational idea for a subplot, but if I can't make them

do it, convincingly, I can't write it.

You know, I don't want to say character taking over, because that

sounds so naff, once I'm writing a character and I know how they

speak and how they think, they start forging a different, different route.

yes.

I think, yeah, as we mentioned just before I started recording, the

subplot with some characters which don't want to spoil for anyone.

All I'll say is, uh, there's a dance hall scene where they kind of climax

is like there, like that plot and you don't really see it coming,

which is why it's like so beautiful.

Yeah.

But it also at the same time, it didn't come up too left

field where it's like, yeah.

Yeah.

Wait, did I miss something?

Because I have read books sometimes and you're reading something and then

something happens and you're like, did I just zone out for a minute?

Because I feel like I've missed something.

And I go back a few pages and I went, No, that's just suddenly happened.

There's been like a left turn out of nowhere.

Whereas that was like, they'd turned a corner and then there's a reveal

around the bend of the corner.

And I was like, Oh, of course, that's around this corner.

that's brilliant.

Well, I only ever tend to read out what I've written to my husband

in the evenings, if he can bear it.

But it's only about 200 words anyway.

And I honestly don't want criticism from him, and I don't

want suggestions from him.

All I want is to know whether it's believable.

And if he says it isn't believable, I get very, very cross, but, but I have to

take it on board and it's very useful.

so yes, I'm really, really glad that works.

In fact, there's a song being sung, which doesn't give anything away.

There's a song being sung in this dance hall, and I, I found a fabulous

1930s rather suggestive song.

and then I put it in the book and when it went for copyediting they said yeah this

will be about, you know, three thousand pounds if you want to buy this one.

And so I made, I had to make up the lyrics, I made up the,

the sexy 1930s song lyrics.

I was wondering because I do know that I have heard that.

That, you know, if you do quote song lyrics, it can be expensive.

It can be surprisingly expensive, tom.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah,

You mentioned that sort of with your writing sessions, you know,

if you read out to your husband.

You want to make it perfect before you move on.

But you only write a couple of hundred words.

So how long is a usual writing session for you?

Um, do you try and make a whole day of it?

Cause you, Cause you're leaving to go to the library.

Is there a lot of thinking time in that a lot of procrastination?

I mean, how many hours do you tend to put in?

Tom.

I waste so much, Tom.

I, I, I can’t tell you.

Do you know when I finished my first book,

a novel, Lissa, you have the attention span of a flea.

And this is a really good friend.

Ah, so I write between probably about ten and about half four.

With a lunch break, obviously.

You know, if I look up and six minutes have gone by, that's a really terrific

burst of concentration on my part.

I really, really do have the attention span of a flea.

And I find it almost painful to have to concentrate.

If I'm doing something like adapting.

Adapting a script, which I've done, adapting a book, which I've

done occasionally, or I'm, I'm having to do something like, um,

writing a non fiction piece, my concentration could be fantastic.

But it's inventing stuff out of your head that's really, really hard.

And of course I'm really pleased when I've done it and it really feels fantastic.

And I have to tell myself, God, if I manage to produce half a

page today, I will feel fantastic.

But that still doesn't stop me from Procrastinating, getting up, doing stuff,

bit of research, email, bit of Twitter.

You know, I'm just terrible.

I sometimes think if I concentrated properly I'd have

written about 50 books by now.

I don't really have much excuse, it's terrible.

Well, I think that's, will be very reassuring to a lot

of listeners who do struggle.

That you can have great success and movie adaptations of your books.

Even if you can't concentrate more than five minutes at a time.

Yeah.

It's terrible, isn't it?

I mean, I, It's not there unless I think of it that's so painful, you know, and

it's such a privilege to be a writer.

I'm not complaining.

Gosh, it's better than having a proper job.

But, sometimes you think, God, this is impossible.

I've been doing this scene for days.

Like, I've written two paragraphs, you know.

But when you've got it done, it just seems natural and right.

I mean, it's, that's because of the way I write.

If I Spurge, I might feel better about it.

But because it all has to be perfect.

It's ridiculous.

I polish every sentence to jewel like splendour and then

I move on to the next sentence.

You know, that's..

Yeah.

Terrible way of writing.

Editing the podcast is very similar.

Because I love the interviews.

I love chatting to people, I love hearing it.

But then going back and listening to every um and ah taking that

out and I edit out everything.

It's like, it's teeth pulling, absolute teeth pulling.

Um, what you're saying there about perfection and I just really wanted to

know, what's your opinion on daily target?

Cause it's obviously not a word count sort of thing.

Is it just at four o'clock it's like, okay, I'm done for the day.

Or is it, I finished this chapter or, you know, do you give yourself

a daily target of any kind?

I try to, it rarely works.

It might be nice to finish a scene or to start a scene.

My writing is best in the morning, it falls off after

lunch, it disappears after 4.

30 frankly.

I've never been able to write anything in the evening.

Well, nothing, nothing original.

I can, again, I can write, I could do other forms of writing

in the evening, but not fiction.

Really I should get up at six o'clock and start work at seven, but I'm,

you know, it's no t going to happen.

There's there's more to life, Lissa.

Uh, when you start a writing session, do you revisit what you wrote the day before?

Is it very much like a review and edit at the start?

Yes, I do.

Always.

And it's very, very demoralizing if, what you read the day

before is not good enough.

But also, It's risky because I end up, you know, spending ages tweaking

yesterdays instead of doing the new one.

Or going back a couple of pages and thinking, Oh, that joke

just doesn't hit quite right.

I'll have another 50 fiddles before I move on to the next one.

I do, I do very often revisit.

I mean, I do know exactly what I've written and exactly

what needs doing to it.

So, I'm sighing at myself.

Oh my God.

Another thing I was kind of curious about what you said earlier.

You know, about being the Roomba stuck in a corner and having to back out.

When you do have uninspired periods where you're just like, I'm backing

up, but I'm having to back up further.

I have no idea.

How do you deal with those uninspired periods?

Do you just like, you know what, today's not a writing day, it's a

reading day, or it's an editing day.

And how do you stay motivated to revisit the work?

Yes, it is very difficult.

Yes, sometimes I will do research days, sometimes I'll go for a walk.

Walking does help a lot.

That helps dislodge ideas.

Or sometimes I'll try something else.

I mean, it's not insignificant that up until fairly recently,

while writing a book for adults, I would start a book for children.

And in fact, when I started writing Crooked Heart, which was the book that

came after their finest hour and a half, a book about an evacuee, I started that,

got stuck after that 20, 000 words, started writing children's book, got

a contract, wrote that children's book and the sequel, and then carried on

writing Crooked Heart and finished it.

So.

I have, when I got stuck, written another book entirely.

And that is next level procrastination.

Yeah.

I very often started another book while writing the one I'm

supposed to be writing, yeah.

That's the rule rather than the exception with me, yeah.

And I guess, you know, really focusing in on the editing, because

you say, like, you go back and, uh, you know, so you're constantly looking

back at what you've done before, how do you know when it's done?

It's one of those adages is that art isn't finished, it's abandoned.

And it feels that that might be the way with your books.

And I was like, how do you know when to abandon and move on?

That's a good point, but I think I genuinely know, I think, without

sounding pretentious, yeah, it's, it's almost like a musical thing.

When the, when the tune's exactly right.

I spend an awful lot of time getting jokes right.

I mean, the thing is, you know, I was in radio originally.

So I worked as a producer in a medium where there are only words,

and where you spend your entire time with other people's scripts, cutting,

cutting, cutting, cutting, and also, how radio scripts are set out where

you've got the character's name on one side and the dialogue on the other.

And the absolute gold standard of a radio script is you should be able

to cover up all the character's names and still know who's speaking.

And that kind of thing is fantastically useful useful for me

in training as a writer in a way.

Cutting stuff down to the optimum.

So I think it's not so much polishing up, it's honing down.

So you feel, oh, this doesn't need any more.

Cut it.

And, and also there's the, there's the scheme about killing your darlings.

That line that you spent six weeks on, just cut it.

It's never gonna be there.

That, that metaphor you've been polishing all month, it's,

it's really not gonna be there.

Just cut it.

The reader will never know it ever existed.

You have to admonish yourself quite a lot.

And once you've done the draft that you're happy with and it flows

and it's got that musicality to it.

Does it go straight to your editor or do you have an agent?

Like who's the first person to read it next?

I usually send it, when I've done about 20 or 30,000 words it

will go both to my agent who was in publishing herself and to my editor.

And then usually they won't see it again until it's finished and then I'll send

it to both of them at the same time.

And, uh, get the notes.

So, I'm terrible.

I mean, I hate getting the notes, as I absolutely hate it.

It's not, I'm not temperamentally suited.

I have to really tell, tell myself off.

But I don't get that many because I have thought of every possible thing wrong

with it before I finish writing it.

So do You have to take a time out just to emotionally deal

with the notes before editing?

Is it like, I'm gonna have a stiff drink and sleep on this before kind of?

Time is very useful because, I mean, I'm much better

at taking them than n I used to be.

But generally, actually waiting a few weeks after finishing.

You've got a much, much better perspective on the book.

And I'm much less pretentious about saying, oh yeah, that doesn't

work, just cut it, you know.

So yes, I, um, Yeah, time.

Time is a great healer in terms of getting edits, yeah.

That's another thing I actually wanted to bring up.

Because you said right at the beginning that you're a slow writer,

only a couple of hundred words a day.

You love the research part at the start and actually start going and

then there's the procrastinating days.

So, if you're not stopping to do two children's books, um, how long would you

say an average book project is for you?

Probably about two and a half years.

Okay.

Yeah.

The last few books, for some reason, they've all come in same length.

Their Finest Hour And A Half, the one about filming during the

war was long, long, long book.

I mean 120,000 words, but there was a lot of plot in it.

It was the whole of a film.

And then all my books since then have come in about 74,000.

That seems to be my length.

Yeah.

And yeah, start to finish about, I, I normally say to my editor.

Ooh, I think it'll be just under two years.

And it's always going to go, ooh.

I think it's just going to flop over into the, you know.

So, yeah, about, about two and a half.

God, it's terrible, isn't it?

I have to write so much.

I actually wrote instead of just staring.

Well, honestly, I would say because you know, I love all my guests.

Like I have a very high threshold to get on the show.

And I do think some of the submissions that haven't gone on the show.

I do feel like if they just spent a bit more time.

And I, and it's just because I think because you see these huge bestseller

people who bring out a book a year.

I've actually had a guest who's a phenomenal romance

writer who does two a year.

But she, she does a summer book and a winter book, but much like you're writing

a, um, you know, you, you might have a, a children's book project is having

two projects on the go and knowing there's a six month window between

them, but just having that full time, And maybe not procrastinating quite

to your degree, she's able to do that.

But, I think, you know, in the age of social media, where people are

inevitably comparing themselves to others, and they say, Oh, I have to

write a book in under a year is nonsense.

Everyone writes to their own length, uh, in their own time.

I mean, Harper Lee took quite a while for her sequel to come out.

Yes, yes, or look at Marilynne Robinson, who's something new, 20

years, between her first two books.

I know, yes, it's um, you can't be prescriptive about it.

Everybody writes in a different way, and good luck to you if you

can write faster, that's brilliant.

But I think your books are so good.

And it's like, there's the characters are so well realized.

And you've had great success with your books.

And as a procrastinator, as an open, honest procrastinator,

I think that's great to have.

And for my listeners, you know, to go, Oh, okay.

I don't write a year.

That doesn't mean I'm a bad writer.

And Oh, I've, I've procrastinated a lot today.

That doesn't mean I'm a bad writer.

Oh, I don't seem to be editing in the same way other people do.

That doesn't make me a bad writer.

The whole thing I love with this show is here's a different way.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think having someone who's so open about their procrastination

and having a process that's two years, and that's just your process, is great

because that's not something that's being portrayed on the show a lot.

But obviously you're doing really well, your books are really good.

When I first started, when I wrote my first book, I was thinking,

I wrote my first book in about a year.

But I had written the first two chapters of it about five years before.

And I've written and rewritten and rewritten and rewritten

those first two chapters.

And it wasn't until I thought, I'm going to write chapter

three, that I actually moved on.

And I wrote really well then, and could sometimes write a thousand words a day.

But still, it took me nearly a year, because at one point I just had to

take a couple of months off, because I just couldn't think of what came next.

So I think I've, I think I've got worse.

But I've always been a bit like that.

You know, it's always taken me a long time.

I think it's just, I think the more you write, the more you know yourself.

And it's just you're less holding yourself to other people's standards and more

comfortable of your own work life balance.

There's also that fear that what you're writing

isn't as good as the last one.

Which absolutely handcuffs me endlessly.

I mean, I'm always saying, oh I just don't know, I just don't know if

there's a story here, I can't see how it's going to be long enough.

And you know, one of my sisters said, you always say that, listen.

He said, yes but this time, this time I think it's true, you know.

And every single time I'm beset by doubt or worry.

And yes, okay, the last one was fine in the end.

But this one, this one really is difficult and not working, you know.

it's, um, imposter syndrome, I think, is a key part of

being a professional writer.

Uh, it's just like, oh, this is the book I'm writing now is the one that I'll

get found out and I'll never be again.

That's right.

She's lost it.

She lost it after Small Bomb at Dimperley.

You think, oh, God.

Do you find it's the same point in each project where the,

the imposter syndrome doubt gets in?

Is it about halfway?

It's all the way through, Tom.

It's all the way through.

Another question I want to ask is you spend so much time with a project.

At the end of a project, once it's all signed off, it's actually, you know,

proofs are done, it's gone to the printer, you know, no more changes.

Is that a sense of relief, of like, oh, I finally got that done?

Or, is there an element of grief, of you've spent so much time with these

characters, that you're not going to spend any more time with them?

Um, certainly there's a sense of farewell.

I mean, when I wrote, Crooked Heart about the evacuee.

I was so intensely in the mind of the characters.

By the end, it's a good point to end at the book, but there

were lots of questions still.

And I felt I do want to carry on because I know these characters.

And I ended up writing a prequel and then a sequel.

And when I wrote the sequel, it was so lovely to write them again, because I

knew exactly how these characters thought.

And more to the point, I knew exactly how they spoke.

I mean, the one thing I write quite quickly, and that's

relatively, obviously, is dialogue.

Because I really, really enjoy writing dialogue, and dialogue I write on

the whole, purely the character.

You know, exposition I tend to put in the narrative.

But, because, expositional dialogue is so boring, it never feels real.

And so, so dialogue is for character, it's for funnies, it's for sharpness,

it's for banter, it's for argument.

You know, it's really much more enjoyable and much faster to write.

And, you know, you don't get that thing about, Oh my God, how am I

going to get them out of the room?

You know, they move towards the door.

I spent ages thinking, How am I going to get them from the table to the room?

Dialogue, you don't, you don't have that.

You know, you're in the moment and also once you get to know the characters,

you can think, oh, what would it be like if, you know, I've had A and

B talking, but what if A meets D?

What would that conversation be like?

And I love all of that.

And perhaps that's my radio and telly background saying that, but those are

the most enjoyable bits of the book.

Yeah, I think Xena and the housekeeper, like, their

relationship was very good.

Oh, that, that was a very late, you know, those are two

characters who only meet to talk about after halfway in the book.

They haven't actually exchanged any speech at all there, and yeah,

that was a conversation waiting to happen that I enjoyed writing.

Yeah.

And I'm just going to go to my final two questions because I feel like

we've covered everything so brilliantly.

And thank you.

It's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing

with each story that they write.

Was there anything in particular that you learned through writing

your last book that you're now applying to your latest project?

Um, because it sounds arrogant if I say no, but I'll

tell you what I am doing now.

I've started a new book, and I have written multi character books.

Really, apart from my children's books, for all my previous five novels.

And I'm now writing a single character.

And I'm worried I can't do it, Tom.

I'm worried that without multiple characters, I won't be able to do it.

So, what I found out in the last book was that, I really, really enjoy

writing from multiple characters.

And that it's a much bigger task just to write for one.

So, so it's really, this project is the one you're going to learn from.

Yes.

Whether you can or whether you can't, we'll find out next time.

Yes.

Oh, God.

This is the one that imposter syndrome will really kick in on.

Yeah, that's right.

This is the one where it's actually true.

Yeah, that's it.

Um, and my last question, Lissa, um, is there one piece of

advice you find yourself returning to with your own writing, something

that motivates you through?

You can't edit a blank page, Tom.

You've got to get it on the page.

However, whatever your method is.

Or, the other one is, if I don't write it, nobody's going to do it for me.

Nobody's going to come up and say, it's all right, Lissa, you

step aside, I'll do that page.

no, I've made my bed and I have to lie in it.

No, that's great.

Well Lissa,it's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for being

my pleasure.

Thank you Tom.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

It's not finished.

I know it sounds finished.

It's perfectly reasonable to think that that was the end.

But after the interview, I asked a question that turned out to be

such gold, I've had to include it.

And I couldn't really find a way to seamlessly add it in,

so it's a very messy ending.

Also, if I sound in this next bit a bumbling fool, it's

because I am when I'm not edited.

I generally sound terrible, we're getting a peek behind the curtain,

so, yeah, sorry I'm not slick.

Anyway, here for your listening pleasure is a little extra with Lyssa.

So there you go.

That was the show.

How was that for you.

it.

Thank you.

I hope it, I hope it was okay.

Oh, yeah, no, it's great.

Um, I've got to add because, uh, my wife would kill me.

Uh, cause my wife, uh, used to be a video editor and she was a filmmaker

in her early twenties, but, uh, being a woman in, um, film is difficult.

And, um, yeah, so, uh, but she video edited for years.

Um, the BAFTA in the background.

I do have to ask what was it?

do you know, it used to have necklaces round it, and my daughter

stayed in my room and she took them off.

Um, yeah, it's for Father Ted.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, it's a third series of Father Ted.

I produced the second and third series and the christmas special.

In fact, Tom, I've written a book about it, I've now written a short

book about it, which is coming out in April, called Picnic on Craggy Island,

about that, which is the most fun and took me no time at all to write.

Because it's non fiction, it's just based on my memories.

Oh, that's great.

Because it was just because you have other careers and stuff like that.

And I just thought I'll be very gauche just to sort of ask if it's like,

not related to writing and it's just

I'm really sorry, uh, that's very embarrassing that's in the

background, you wouldn't be, two weeks ago that was covered in necklaces and

you wouldn't even know, not something I would ever do, I'm really sorry.

Yeah, well, I was a huge fan of Father Ted.

It's very much, like I was just college, uh, sort of like age where it came out.

Uh, I could sing you my lovely horse like that.

Absolutely no problem.

We could sing it together, Tom.

But it's just, that would dominate the interview.

I'm going to get through the whole thing and not mention it

but i might after at the end.

But, um, yeah.

A pleasure to write to be honest.

It's a very affectionate little book, but it's quite meaty.

It's about producing, really.

It's about Father Ted and it's about what's going on behind the scenes.

So, uh, I enjoyed writing it.

And it's got a lot of terrible snapshots.

Because nobody had phones then.

Yeah.

Lot of really little, you know, snapshots people took along the way.

Yeah.

Well, I'll definitely pick up that book.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I keep on telling the publisher, I think it's going to be really big

and I think lots of people want it.

I don't, he doesn't realise how many people are still nuts about it.

I think I saw something on social media other day of people

at the bottom of the lane by

the house.

You know, it's still a, a, pilgrimage spot.

Yeah.

That's right.

It's amazing.

Well, that's good to know.

And, um, you know, Picnic on craggy island.

It's just gone up, you can see the front cover on

Amazon, but it doesn't exist yet.

Still doing the copy edit.

that is fine.

But yeah, if it's on amazon for pre order,

Yeah, it's not coming out till april, so that'll be, uh, no, february.

I'm sorry.

February.

Yeah, that's fine.

Cause pre orderss are important.

Yeah, they blooming well are.

Yeah,

So I'll gladly put that on

it is funny.

I have to say it's a funny book.

It was very, a real pleasure to write.

It's a funny book.

Great, All right, well, I'll definitely add this in.

Thank you.

Well thanks very much indeed, Tom.

Real pleasure to talk.

Well, again, it's just that I only have people on that I like,

and I really want to promote.

And that's then for the audience to be like, okay, these are

people worthy of my time.

Because if I don't, If I don't love it, then the audience won't trust

it and the audience won't come back.

But yeah, really loved it.

Listen, it's been a real pleasure.

And Yes, and good luck with Small Bomb at Dimpley.

It's a great book.

It deserves to do very well.

And Picnic on Craggy Island, I'll order immediately after this.

You're a star.

Thank you.

And I look forward to hearing it.

Thanks so much, Tom.

Thank you very much.

Bye.

Okay, so that is the end and I really hoped you all enjoyed it as much as I did.

Small Bomb at Dimpley is out now and is available from places that sell books.

And Picnic at Craggy Island comes out on the 20th of February 2025 in the UK.

Pre order it now and tell your friends.

I think it's excellent for people who love the TV show and also

those who are interested in the making of award winning television.

I'll attach a link to Lissa's website, but it's simply lissaevans.

com if you want to find out more or keep up to date with her stuff.

Not that it comes out regularly, but it's there.

And, uh, just a note to say this podcast is now on BlueSky.

I signed up to get the official account months ago, but I'm

actively trying to use it now.

So if you use BlueSky and you want to give us a follow on there, please do.

Instagram is regularly checked too, and my other pages are just there

to ensure the handle isn't taken.

Anyway, that's all for this week.

I'm interviewing another New York Times best selling author tomorrow.

They've recently been on a film set to see one of their stories being adapted.

It's not Richard Osmond, but it is someone I'm very excited to interview.

Uh, in the meantime, new episode comes out in two weeks.

Be kind, be safe, and keep writing until the world ends.