Heather Hepburn - Head of Accessibility @ Skyscanner - The Digital Accessibility Podcast

Speaker: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Digital Accessibility Podcast,

2

: 00:00:03

sponsored by PCR Digital and hosted by me, Joe James.

3

: 00:00:07

I'll be sharing my interviews with thought leaders,

4

: 00:00:10

experts and advocates of digital accessibility from all

5

: 00:00:13

areas of the space.

6

: 00:00:15

If you're new here, we do have full transcript,

7

: 00:00:18

closed captions and a video over on YouTube,

8

: 00:00:22

so I hope that there's an accessible way for you to follow

9

: 00:00:24

along with these chats and get involved with the

10

: 00:00:27

discussion.

11

: 00:00:28

The aim is to make the digital world more inclusive and

12

: 00:00:32

accessible for everyone.

13

: 00:00:34

So sit back, relax and I hope you enjoy the chat!

14

: 00:00:40

Today I'm joined by Heather Hepburn,

15

: 00:00:44

Head of Accessibility at SkyScanner.

16

: 00:00:46

SkyScanner is a search aggregator and travel agency based

17

: 00:00:50

in Edinburgh, Scotland.

18

: 00:00:52

The site is available in over 30 languages and is used by

19

: 00:00:55

over 100 million people every month.

20

: 00:00:58

The company lets people research and book travel options

21

: 00:01:02

for their trips, including flights, hotels and car hire.

22

: 00:01:06

You can imagine the potential for huge amounts of barriers

23

: 00:01:09

or accessibility issues that could be found within a site

24

: 00:01:13

or app that huge.

25

: 00:01:15

So that's why they have one of the best in the business, h

26

: 00:01:18

eading up Accessibility with Heather.

27

: 00:01:20

So welcome to the podcast, Heather.

28

: 00:01:23

Thank you, that's a crazy introduction,

29

: 00:01:25

but thank you very much.

30

: 00:01:26

I'm really delighted and honoured to be here.

31

: 00:01:29

Thank you and thank you for everything you're doing in the

32

: 00:01:31

space as well.

33

: 00:01:32

I've loved listening to the episodes so far.

34

: 00:01:36

They've been great.

35

: 00:01:37

Thank you.

36

: 00:01:38

Oh, thank you, Heather.

37

: 00:01:40

Just trying to do my bit, as you know.

38

: 00:01:43

Can't say I've had as much of an impact in the space as

39

: 00:01:46

yourself at all, but yeah, whatever I can do,

40

: 00:01:49

I'll continue to.

41

: 00:01:52

But that brings me onto question one,

42

: 00:01:54

I guess we'll dive straight in.

43

: 00:01:55

You really have done so much throughout your career within

44

: 00:01:58

the space.

45

: 00:02:00

For me it was quite difficult to just pinpoint one thing in

46

: 00:02:04

particular for the intro.

47

: 00:02:06

So obviously hence the title best in the business which you

48

: 00:02:10

can now carry forward.

49

: 00:02:12

So the first question is what would you say is one of your

50

: 00:02:16

career highlights or biggest achievements?

51

: 00:02:20

I do have to think back to just getting the whole

52

: 00:02:26

accessibility programme off the ground.

53

: 00:02:28

I mean, you know,

54

: 00:02:30

five years ago it didn't exist and I think when I joined

55

: 00:02:34

Skyscanner I was a UX writer.

56

: 00:02:36

Nothing to do with accessibility at all and it was very

57

: 00:02:41

early on actually that I realised "wait a minute Skyscanner

58

: 00:02:44

are not really prioritising this" and I just really wanted

59

: 00:02:47

to do something about it and luckily found some very like

60

: 00:02:51

-minded people in the business as well and we

61

: 00:02:56

got together and yeah we made it happen

62

: 00:02:58

So I think that has to be,

63

: 00:02:59

when I look back to that in those early days,

64

: 00:03:02

it was difficult.

65

: 00:03:03

I had to present to a million people why it was the right

66

: 00:03:07

thing to do, why we should do it.

67

: 00:03:09

I ended up just writing a job description and saying, look,

68

: 00:03:12

we need to do this.

69

: 00:03:14

I want to do it, can we?

70

: 00:03:16

And yeah, eventually I was allowed to just get on with it,

71

: 00:03:19

which has been it's been great.

72

: 00:03:21

And since those early days,

73

: 00:03:23

I think a lovely thing we've done is built up a really

74

: 00:03:26

strong Champions Network.

75

: 00:03:27

So, you know, it's obviously not just me.

76

: 00:03:29

There's a whole team of champs doing their bit.

77

: 00:03:33

And I've also now got a lead accessibility engineer who is

78

: 00:03:36

amazing.

79

: 00:03:37

So all of that technical stuff he can now look after,

80

: 00:03:40

which really helps.

81

: 00:03:42

I think in terms of progress,

82

: 00:03:45

it's been so nice just getting the business to agree to

83

: 00:03:49

things like joining the valuable 500.

84

: 00:03:51

You know, that was a huge turning point, I think, as well,

85

: 00:03:54

that we were publicly committing to disability,

86

: 00:03:58

improving disability inclusion.

87

: 00:04:00

You know, so that was a big moment as well.

88

: 00:04:03

And really any time the company talks about it, you know,

89

: 00:04:06

if they do a post on LinkedIn from Skyscanner about what

90

: 00:04:10

we're doing in the space,

91

: 00:04:11

and anything makes me feel great and makes me quite proud

92

: 00:04:16

of what we've achieved so far.

93

: 00:04:18

I suppose I still, yeah,

94

: 00:04:21

I'm still blown away that anyone wants to talk to me and

95

: 00:04:24

hear the story.

96

: 00:04:25

It's quite, it still amazes me,

97

: 00:04:28

but I love talking about it.

98

: 00:04:29

So thank you again for having me.

99

: 00:04:30

And another thing, sorry,

100

: 00:04:31

I should also say the Champions of Accessibility Network,

101

: 00:04:34

so the external network called CAN.

102

: 00:04:36

Who you're a member of,

103

: 00:04:38

we have amazing membership base of 1,300 people now.

104

: 00:04:43

It's just crazy how this has grown.

105

: 00:04:48

You know, that's been a huge achievement, I think.

106

: 00:04:51

And just briefly,

107

: 00:04:52

that started by Gareth Ford Williams and Charlie Turrell

108

: 00:04:55

from both Ex-BBC.

109

: 00:04:58

about, you know, how to set something like this up.

110

: 00:05:02

But I heard them talking about it, I said,

111

: 00:05:03

I want to be involved in that.

112

: 00:05:05

So the three of us, plan it,

113

: 00:05:08

run the monthly meetups and yeah,

114

: 00:05:11

the membership base is growing.

115

: 00:05:12

It's just all people like us, you know,

116

: 00:05:13

involved in accessibility, interested in accessibility.

117

: 00:05:16

And as you know, it's such a wonderful industry to be in.

118

: 00:05:22

Everyone so nice.

119

: 00:05:23

So it's yeah, that's been amazing.

120

: 00:05:25

It is.

121

: 00:05:26

It's just huge, a huge achievement as well.

122

: 00:05:28

And it's so it is interesting.

123

: 00:05:31

A lot of people don't tend to put sort of,

124

: 00:05:33

I don't want to call it an extra curricular activity,

125

: 00:05:36

like setting up a network of that huge.

126

: 00:05:39

But it's outside of your day job, isn't it?

127

: 00:05:41

It's an additional thing that you're doing your it's that

128

: 00:05:44

extra commitment to the space.

129

: 00:05:46

And it is, you've done an incredible job.

130

: 00:05:50

It's very hard to maintain something like that and where

131

: 00:05:52

it's growing so exponentially as well.

132

: 00:05:56

It's definitely something to be proud of and I'm a very,

133

: 00:05:59

very proud member of that community as well.

134

: 00:06:02

Thank you.

135

: 00:06:02

Do you know it's such an amazing group that it just shows

136

: 00:06:06

the need for something like that.

137

: 00:06:08

Because I think a lot of accessibility folks are out there

138

: 00:06:11

on their own.

139

: 00:06:12

They're, you know,

140

: 00:06:12

they might be the only one in a business or they're on

141

: 00:06:14

their own trying to get the business to think about

142

: 00:06:18

accessibility, just like I was at the beginning.

143

: 00:06:21

And we can talk to each other and we can share ideas and

144

: 00:06:24

ask questions.

145

: 00:06:24

I mean, the LinkedIn group we have,

146

: 00:06:26

you'll see in there all the time and there's questions for

147

: 00:06:28

the group, questions for the group.

148

: 00:06:30

And the wonderful thing is they're just so happy to share

149

: 00:06:32

information as well.

150

: 00:06:34

There's no competition in that group.

151

: 00:06:36

It's quite phenomenal.

152

: 00:06:37

It is.

153

: 00:06:38

And everywhere else in tech,

154

: 00:06:41

because it's not just accessibility that I sort of work

155

: 00:06:43

within, it's the general sort of tech spectrum.

156

: 00:06:46

So it's the only space that I see that level of sharing,

157

: 00:06:51

knowledge sharing in general, but just tips and advice.

158

: 00:06:55

I think that it can be so competitive and dog-eat-dog

159

: 00:06:57

elsewhere in tech.

160

: 00:06:58

But in this, like you say,

161

: 00:07:00

it must be that element of there's still so few people in

162

: 00:07:04

the UK that actually do this as a profession.

163

: 00:07:06

So who else are you going to ask other than your peers and

164

: 00:07:10

competitors, I suppose?

165

: 00:07:11

It's the wonderful thing about having an online network.

166

: 00:07:14

So for people who don't know it,

167

: 00:07:15

it's a group on LinkedIn and you can request to join.

168

: 00:07:18

It's called the Champions of Accessibility Network or CAN.

169

: 00:07:21

But our membership is from all over the world.

170

: 00:07:24

It's amazing.

171

: 00:07:25

So when we have our monthly meetups and we get people to

172

: 00:07:27

put in the chat, you know, where they're from,

173

: 00:07:29

it's everywhere.

174

: 00:07:31

And it's just, it's astonishing that people, I mean,

175

: 00:07:33

there's people in New Zealand joining,

176

: 00:07:35

getting up at 4 or 5 am.

177

: 00:07:36

Which just every time makes me feel it's just it's just

178

: 00:07:41

another thing.

179

: 00:07:42

Going global, it's great.

180

: 00:07:44

Awesome.

181

: 00:07:45

So to move on to the next, the next bit,

182

: 00:07:48

which actually touches on that slightly as well.

183

: 00:07:50

In a previous conversation with Bev Newing from the

184

: 00:07:53

Ministry of Justice, we were talking about how the.

185

: 00:07:56

the UK accessibility space is maturing,

186

: 00:07:59

but with that maturity comes a lot of sort of top-heavy

187

: 00:08:03

seniors and leads.

188

: 00:08:06

So there are such things,

189

: 00:08:09

there are things that just events and meetups and

190

: 00:08:11

apprenticeships that we hope will nurture more junior or

191

: 00:08:14

fresh talent in the space,

192

: 00:08:15

but as someone that entered it as a UX writer, you know,

193

: 00:08:20

when you joined Skyscanner,

194

: 00:08:22

would you have any advice around how we can level out that

195

: 00:08:26

playing field,

196

: 00:08:27

just to make sure that we can maintain talent across the

197

: 00:08:32

board?

198

: 00:08:34

Yeah, I mean it is really still a problem isn't it,

199

: 00:08:38

because it's often still often someone's side project,

200

: 00:08:44

particularly designers and engineers.

201

: 00:08:47

If the company doesn't have an accessibility team,

202

: 00:08:48

it quite often ends up on there, you know.

203

: 00:08:53

their passion project, which it really shouldn't be by now.

204

: 00:08:55

It should be embedded.

205

: 00:08:57

It should be part of a company's strategy to make whatever

206

: 00:09:01

they do accessible.

207

: 00:09:04

It's I mean,

208

: 00:09:05

the ideal situation is to have a dedicated team for sure,

209

: 00:09:10

of specialists.

210

: 00:09:11

And if you have that,

211

: 00:09:12

then you have your seniors leading the team.

212

: 00:09:15

And then you have the room for the juniors to be hired and

213

: 00:09:19

trained up.

214

: 00:09:19

And, you know, they're the fantastic ones.

215

: 00:09:22

We need them.

216

: 00:09:24

But sometimes it's just really hard to to be to give them

217

: 00:09:30

permission, I guess, to to expand a team.

218

: 00:09:32

So what what we're trying to do is really improve the

219

: 00:09:36

capability across the business.

220

: 00:09:38

So we do, you know,

221

: 00:09:39

a lot of training of our people in the product development

222

: 00:09:42

process anyway.

223

: 00:09:45

And we really try and, you know,

224

: 00:09:48

bridge that knowledge gap and just get people

225

: 00:09:50

understanding, you know,

226

: 00:09:51

how to do accessibility within their discipline.

227

: 00:09:55

But yeah, it's it is hard.

228

: 00:09:57

It's it's hard when it's a growing area as well,

229

: 00:10:01

because you're still you've still got those buy-in

230

: 00:10:05

conversations to have.

231

: 00:10:07

And, you know, people need a team,

232

: 00:10:09

but then it's not always the case.

233

: 00:10:11

And then teams, I mean, you know,

234

: 00:10:13

look at Twitter's team and Spotify's team,

235

: 00:10:16

they know they were huge.

236

: 00:10:17

And then they get chopped or axed completely.

237

: 00:10:21

I hope that's not.

238

: 00:10:22

I mean, we could talk for a whole episode maybe about that.

239

: 00:10:27

But I definitely think the, you know,

240

: 00:10:30

the way things are going,

241

: 00:10:31

team accessibility teams that are part of your your org are

242

: 00:10:34

the way forward and will hopefully be becoming more common

243

: 00:10:39

as we move forward.

244

: 00:10:41

Yeah, absolutely.

245

: 00:10:43

And I think it is just that, I guess,

246

: 00:10:46

nurturing of internal teams or the people that you

247

: 00:10:52

have. That already have those sort of transferable skills

248

: 00:10:54

as well within and it's identifying someone in your

249

: 00:10:57

position that's like, well, actually,

250

: 00:10:58

I've come from a UX background and that does tie in quite

251

: 00:11:02

nicely into this sort of more niche area, I suppose,

252

: 00:11:06

of focus.

253

: 00:11:08

I mean, there's so many areas, isn't there,

254

: 00:11:10

in accessibility?

255

: 00:11:11

And I think a lot of accessibility professionals are

256

: 00:11:13

expected to do absolutely everything because if you're

257

: 00:11:15

only, you've only got one,

258

: 00:11:17

then they have to cover quite a lot.

259

: 00:11:19

And that will hopefully change because there's so many

260

: 00:11:23

nuances.

261

: 00:11:23

There's so many specialist skills, like I was mentioning,

262

: 00:11:27

our lead accessibility engineer.

263

: 00:11:29

He was an iOS engineer within Sky Scanner,

264

: 00:11:32

who was just awesome at accessibility, really passionate,

265

: 00:11:35

really wanted to learn, you know, was a really active,

266

: 00:11:38

accessibility champion and was the obvious person to move

267

: 00:11:42

into that role.

268

: 00:11:43

But then there's loads of other people as well in different

269

: 00:11:45

areas.

270

: 00:11:47

There's a design specialist, specialism as well, that

271

: 00:11:50

really needs.

272

: 00:11:51

There's just so much to know in each area.

273

: 00:11:53

Use a testing as well.

274

: 00:11:54

That's another unique skilled area.

275

: 00:11:58

Not everyone can do that, you know.

276

: 00:12:00

So yeah,

277

: 00:12:01

there's a lot of work to be done in getting people,

278

: 00:12:05

giving people the opportunity to actually be those

279

: 00:12:09

accessibility specialists in their disciplines,

280

: 00:12:12

make them actual jobs.

281

: 00:12:13

Yeah,

282

: 00:12:14

I think there's definitely an education piece needed there,

283

: 00:12:17

isn't there?

284

: 00:12:17

Because I think at times people can think, well,

285

: 00:12:22

I'm a tester, so I can test for accessibility, i.e.

286

: 00:12:25

therefore I'm an accessibility specialist.

287

: 00:12:28

But you know,

288

: 00:12:29

it's not the be all end all there's not one single part of

289

: 00:12:33

accessibility that you could say,

290

: 00:12:35

if you focus on that one part,

291

: 00:12:37

that means I'm a specialist in the entire thing.

292

: 00:12:39

But then the assumption from the business side of things

293

: 00:12:43

is: you're the accessibility person, so yeah,

294

: 00:12:46

you have to do every single thing.

295

: 00:12:49

And then it comes, unfortunately,

296

: 00:12:51

burnout and that added pressure, isn't it?

297

: 00:12:54

Yes, yeah.

298

: 00:12:55

Right, well, I'll move on to something a bit more cheery,

299

: 00:13:00

and I hope this won't embarrass you or the person it

300

: 00:13:02

involves, but I won't name them.

301

: 00:13:04

When we first met at the Champions of Accessibility Network

302

: 00:13:08

Meetup in London,

303

: 00:13:10

I brought along a couple of friends who work as

304

: 00:13:12

accessibility consultants to introduce them to the wider

305

: 00:13:15

network and sort of get them sort of face to face with a

306

: 00:13:18

lot of people.

307

: 00:13:19

And one of them turned to me and said, "oh,

308

: 00:13:24

I actually feel a bit starstruck!

309

: 00:13:27

That's Heather Hepburn from Skyscanner.

310

: 00:13:32

She's a genuine accessibility superstar in the flesh." So I

311

: 00:13:38

said, yeah, absolutely.

312

: 00:13:39

And it's amazing that, again,

313

: 00:13:43

I hope it doesn't embarrass you saying that,

314

: 00:13:45

but I think there's so many inspirational people in this

315

: 00:13:48

space and I don't think it's sort of, I don't think it's,

316

: 00:13:51

I mean,

317

: 00:13:51

you wouldn't usually walk up to someone in the street and

318

: 00:13:54

go, oh, I admire you so much, you know.

319

: 00:13:57

But I think it's really nice to hear that,

320

: 00:14:00

that you are obviously doing great things and it's being

321

: 00:14:03

noticed.

322

: 00:14:05

So it is very rewarding working in accessibility.

323

: 00:14:10

Such an important field of work.

324

: 00:14:14

And I think that a lot of the people that have worked in

325

: 00:14:17

this space for years and years all have key inspirations or

326

: 00:14:21

people that they look up to and admire or could have been

327

: 00:14:25

the sort of cornerstone for them to go,

328

: 00:14:27

this is the reason I want to start going down this route.

329

: 00:14:30

And I'd love to know if there's anyone like that for you.

330

: 00:14:35

Oh, well, you have embarrassed me and I do remember.

331

: 00:14:39

It was very lovely and very surprising.

332

: 00:14:43

The whole, it's just,

333

: 00:14:46

it's the most inspirational and rewarding industry to be

334

: 00:14:49

in, isn't it?

335

: 00:14:51

Everyone is super nice.

336

: 00:14:53

Everyone is so open and passionate about what they're doing

337

: 00:14:57

and share the same troubles as well.

338

: 00:15:01

So I think that's what brings us all so close together and

339

: 00:15:04

it's quite a small industry still.

340

: 00:15:06

So everyone kind of,

341

: 00:15:07

well not everyone knows each other but there's a lot of

342

: 00:15:08

people who know one another and it's,

343

: 00:15:10

I talk about my accessibility pals or you know if I'm going

344

: 00:15:13

to a different city I can look them up and say do

345

: 00:15:17

you wanna meet up? You

346

: 00:15:19

know just get together, you can anyone

347

: 00:15:20

in the industry just because you've got so much in common

348

: 00:15:22

which is just where else has that?

349

: 00:15:25

I don't know.

350

: 00:15:26

In terms of inspirational people for me I have to mention

351

: 00:15:33

the very first person who completely inspired me was Adi

352

: 00:15:36

Latif.

353

: 00:15:37

Do you know Adi?

354

: 00:15:39

I do.

355

: 00:15:40

I've only met briefly but yeah, lovely, lovely person.

356

: 00:15:45

He is amazing.

357

: 00:15:46

So in those very early months of me trying to get something

358

: 00:15:51

off the ground at SkyScanner we got an email from Adi.

359

: 00:15:54

Adi's blind.

360

: 00:15:55

He's also a usability consultant and his email was so nice

361

: 00:16:00

but it was basically saying we were so terrible but

362

: 00:16:04

he's saying it in such a nice way because he's just so

363

: 00:16:06

lovely.

364

: 00:16:07

I can't really remember exactly what he said but he wasn't

365

: 00:16:12

giving us a hard time but he was just pointing out the fact

366

: 00:16:14

that we were a bit rubbish and he couldn't book a flight on

367

: 00:16:16

SkyScanner and he wanted us to do something about it.

368

: 00:16:18

Of course, totally fair enough comment.

369

: 00:16:21

I spoke to him.

370

: 00:16:24

I called him,

371

: 00:16:25

we had a chat and then I went to meet him at a conference

372

: 00:16:29

because he was hosting a round table and it was just the

373

: 00:16:32

best thing.

374

: 00:16:32

I made sure I was on his round table and then I introduced

375

: 00:16:34

myself and then we could have a great chat face to face and

376

: 00:16:38

he then and then showed me the problems with our app and we

377

: 00:16:44

talked about how we could try and rectify that and yeah he

378

: 00:16:47

is amazing.

379

: 00:16:49

He's now a good friend.

380

: 00:16:50

We realised we're both from Glasgow,

381

: 00:16:52

so we've got a lot in common.

382

: 00:16:53

And if Adi comes up to see his family,

383

: 00:16:55

something's good to see him up here.

384

: 00:16:57

So it's really nice.

385

: 00:16:59

So definitely he was a very early source of inspiration.

386

: 00:17:05

Then I think when I was trying to get the program off the

387

: 00:17:08

ground, I spoke to, well,

388

: 00:17:11

I reached out to a lot of people who were running

389

: 00:17:13

accessibility programs in other companies and amazing who's

390

: 00:17:16

willing to chat to you.

391

: 00:17:17

And since then I've done it myself with anyone who wants to

392

: 00:17:20

chat to me,

393

: 00:17:21

because it's such an important time to just get some

394

: 00:17:25

advice.

395

: 00:17:26

So I remember speaking to, well,

396

: 00:17:27

Gareth Ford Williams was one of them.

397

: 00:17:28

He was still at the BBC at the time.

398

: 00:17:31

Kevin White from the Scottish Government had a great chat

399

: 00:17:33

with him.

400

: 00:17:34

And there's a woman, Lisa from booking.com.

401

: 00:17:36

She was amazing.

402

: 00:17:37

It was just brilliant, brilliant conversations,

403

: 00:17:41

so much good knowledge that people are just open to share.

404

: 00:17:45

It was brilliant.

405

: 00:17:48

So I would say they really helped me get things off the

406

: 00:17:50

ground.

407

: 00:17:52

But I do a funny thing is remembering the first CAN,

408

: 00:17:56

steering committee meet-up.

409

: 00:17:59

So before we just it was an idea and we were thinking,

410

: 00:18:02

okay,

411

: 00:18:02

what's the best way to get a network going for accessibility

412

: 00:18:06

folks?

413

: 00:18:07

And Gareth and Charlie were obviously there,

414

: 00:18:10

but they had formed this little steering group and I was

415

: 00:18:13

there.

416

: 00:18:14

We were on the very first Zoom call of this group.

417

: 00:18:18

And I remember turning my sound off and taking a sneaky

418

: 00:18:21

screen shot.

419

: 00:18:22

Because I was so overwhelmed at the people who were on the

420

: 00:18:26

call.

421

: 00:18:26

They were all my heroes.

422

: 00:18:27

So there was Chris Patnoe, H

423

: 00:18:29

ead of Accessibility from Google.

424

: 00:18:31

Hector Minto, same for Microsoft.

425

: 00:18:34

Jennison Asuncion from LinkedIn.

426

: 00:18:36

Mark from AbilityNet, who's amazing.

427

: 00:18:39

David Tisserand from Ubisoft, who's also fantastic.

428

: 00:18:44

Who else was there.

429

: 00:18:46

There was someone else, but it was just,

430

: 00:18:48

I couldn't believe I was in the same meeting as all of

431

: 00:18:50

these people who I'd been admiring for some time.

432

: 00:18:53

And I just remember being the only one taking an action

433

: 00:18:56

away from that.

434

: 00:18:57

That meeting I was going to go and do some work on,

435

: 00:18:59

creating a survey or whatever it was to send out potential

436

: 00:19:02

members.

437

: 00:19:02

And that was it from there on.

438

: 00:19:04

It was, you know, we started forming the group,

439

: 00:19:07

which was brilliant.

440

: 00:19:07

But yeah, genuinely,

441

: 00:19:08

everyone I speak to in this space is an inspiration.

442

: 00:19:12

You know,

443

: 00:19:12

everyone is so passionate. So caring and supportive.

444

: 00:19:16

It's just fabulous.

445

: 00:19:17

It really is such a, I think it's a hub for empaths,

446

: 00:19:23

I think.

447

: 00:19:23

I keep saying that it's a key,

448

: 00:19:25

key part of working within accessibility.

449

: 00:19:28

I think you have to genuinely care to work in this field.

450

: 00:19:32

Because there are elements of burnout.

451

: 00:19:35

There's that in every walk of life and every kind of career

452

: 00:19:38

path.

453

: 00:19:39

But I think especially within this,

454

: 00:19:41

there's the added kind of pressure because you're genuinely

455

: 00:19:44

potentially changing people's lives or making a positive

456

: 00:19:47

difference

457

: 00:19:48

to people's lives.

458

: 00:19:50

And the flip side of that is making a negative impact and

459

: 00:19:53

no one really wants their products to be doing that.

460

: 00:19:56

But I think the humility that you show is just,

461

: 00:20:01

it's amazing.

462

: 00:20:02

And I'm sure that they all probably thought the same.

463

: 00:20:04

Heather Hepburn from SkyScanner is on the

464

: 00:20:06

call. Or Heather Hepburn who's she?

465

: 00:20:12

Haha, oh it's amazing.

466

: 00:20:12

No that's really cool.

467

: 00:20:13

And it's just, yeah,

468

: 00:20:14

when you find yourself in that situation, I mean,

469

: 00:20:16

that was me as soon as I came and met you all at the CAN

470

: 00:20:20

meet up in London.

471

: 00:20:21

I was just surrounded by so many amazing people.

472

: 00:20:24

And you kind of have to pinch yourself sometimes,

473

: 00:20:26

don't you?

474

: 00:20:28

Yeah, totally.

475

: 00:20:29

It's part of the privilege of doing this podcast as well.

476

: 00:20:31

I'm quite surprised that so many amazing people are willing

477

: 00:20:33

to speak to me.

478

: 00:20:35

But cool.

479

: 00:20:38

So if we bring it back to the sort of general chat around,

480

: 00:20:42

if we can give any advice to people that are listening.

481

: 00:20:45

The key question is whose responsibility is accessibility

482

: 00:20:48

or who's responsible for it in general?

483

: 00:20:52

We're in a very highly technically led world.

484

: 00:20:56

So I feel that a lot of the time it does fall at the feet

485

: 00:21:00

of more technical people, developers, designers,

486

: 00:21:04

and that sort of thing to sort all of this out.

487

: 00:21:07

But do we have to agree that it all needs to shift left and

488

: 00:21:13

start at the design phase and put more responsibility

489

: 00:21:16

there?

490

: 00:21:17

Or is it even earlier than that within school and college

491

: 00:21:21

modules or university degrees?

492

: 00:21:24

Should there always be an element of accessibility taught?

493

: 00:21:28

I guess, yeah.

494

: 00:21:29

What do you feel would be a good resolution or something

495

: 00:21:33

that will get us to start putting the right foot forward

496

: 00:21:36

from now?

497

: 00:21:37

Yeah, I mean, well, from the business side, yes,

498

: 00:21:42

absolutely.

499

: 00:21:43

It's all about that shift left.

500

: 00:21:45

And it's a nice term that more and more people in our

501

: 00:21:48

industry are using now, which is great.

502

: 00:21:51

It's not just the job of a developer as I think it once

503

: 00:21:55

used to be.

504

: 00:21:58

It's everyone's responsibility.

505

: 00:22:03

Everybody has a part to play,

506

: 00:22:05

everyone in that product development process.

507

: 00:22:07

So that's product managers or product owners as well.

508

: 00:22:12

So they have to include it in their requirements.

509

: 00:22:15

They have to be expecting accessible design coming in and

510

: 00:22:18

they have to be giving their development teams time to

511

: 00:22:21

build in an accessible way and test.

512

: 00:22:24

There's a little bit of additional testing that you have to

513

: 00:22:26

do.

514

: 00:22:26

And yes, it does take a little bit extra time,

515

: 00:22:28

but nothing like the time it takes to retrofit fixes into

516

: 00:22:33

something.

517

: 00:22:34

We have a number of case studies that prove that point.

518

: 00:22:37

So that's good.

519

: 00:22:38

The shift left.

520

: 00:22:40

Yeah, so I mean,

521

: 00:22:42

starting at the requirement stage. Designers have to be

522

: 00:22:46

considering accessible needs of users, in our case,

523

: 00:22:51

travellers.

524

: 00:22:52

We have a really nice way now actually of marking up our

525

: 00:22:55

designs with accessibility annotations.

526

: 00:22:58

So when the designs are being handed over to the

527

: 00:23:01

development teams,

528

: 00:23:02

there's already been thought and those thoughts have been

529

: 00:23:04

documented and so the designers are marking up

530

: 00:23:07

accessibility copy or focus order or what heading levels

531

: 00:23:12

different bits of text are, leaving accessibility notes.

532

: 00:23:15

And even if it's not,

533

: 00:23:16

I've been trying to say this to them recently,

534

: 00:23:18

this doesn't have to be perfect, but what it is,

535

: 00:23:21

is it starts the conversation with the developers and then

536

: 00:23:24

you can work it out together.

537

: 00:23:26

I think that's been really key.

538

: 00:23:29

I think it's quite nerve-wracking sometimes for them to get

539

: 00:23:32

it absolutely perfect,

540

: 00:23:34

but it's really hard to get it perfect.

541

: 00:23:36

It's really hard.

542

: 00:23:38

So that's really important that they start doing that.

543

: 00:23:42

Developers also need to start building it in from the

544

: 00:23:44

beginning and they need some testing tools in there that

545

: 00:23:46

are just part of their process.

546

: 00:23:48

That's a big focus for us this year is to try and embed

547

: 00:23:51

accessibility into existing processes.

548

: 00:23:55

So I don't wanna come in and make people do new stuff,

549

: 00:23:58

just like, okay,

550

: 00:23:59

what tools are we using at the moment to test in? There's

551

: 00:24:01

accessibility bit that we can bolt onto that,

552

: 00:24:04

that will just give you, you know,

553

: 00:24:06

there and then while you're testing for other things,

554

: 00:24:09

covered accessibility as well.

555

: 00:24:12

We don't do enough user testing either with disabled users.

556

: 00:24:15

So we're trying to do that too early or trying to do that

557

: 00:24:19

as early as possible.

558

: 00:24:21

So again, we're not retrofitting fixes,

559

: 00:24:25

it's actually just part of the design and development flow.

560

: 00:24:29

So yeah, everyone's responsibility,

561

: 00:24:31

but if there's no one leading the accessibility program in

562

: 00:24:37

a business, it's very, very hard to make it work.

563

: 00:24:42

So I think there has to be one person responsible for the

564

: 00:24:47

program, not the work, but the actual, the leading of the,

565

: 00:24:52

you know, building the strategy,

566

: 00:24:54

getting the right people in place,

567

: 00:24:56

having some decent measurement there of how you're actually

568

: 00:24:59

getting on, organising training to happen.

569

: 00:25:03

They don't have to be the trainer,

570

: 00:25:04

they don't have to be the person that's actually doing the

571

: 00:25:06

work, but they have to own it.

572

: 00:25:09

So yeah, everyone's responsible,

573

: 00:25:11

but it's great to have someone actually leading the whole

574

: 00:25:15

program.

575

: 00:25:16

Otherwise, I think it can get quite difficult,

576

: 00:25:19

quite easy to forget about.

577

: 00:25:23

It's that and it can just dilute itself, can't it?

578

: 00:25:26

I think it's then just a drop in the ocean,

579

: 00:25:29

if it's one person that's trying to do something or for one

580

: 00:25:32

feature that they're working on and then the rest of it

581

: 00:25:34

just isn't accessible.

582

: 00:25:35

It's kind of like, I appreciate the effort,

583

: 00:25:37

but it's not really actually going to make any difference

584

: 00:25:39

whatsoever.

585

: 00:25:40

So I guess, yeah, you're...

586

: 00:25:42

I thought of, I instantly, just for some reason,

587

: 00:25:45

went town crier with a bell, like "hear ye, hear ye",

588

: 00:25:48

you've got someone in the middle of the office,

589

: 00:25:51

just like "remember accessibility everyone!",

590

: 00:25:53

but I think yeah.

591

: 00:25:55

Yeah, I think so.

592

: 00:25:56

No, it's really important to keep,

593

: 00:25:59

you have to keep going and you have to be having the right

594

: 00:26:02

conversations with the right people.

595

: 00:26:04

And that's not, that is an ongoing thing.

596

: 00:26:07

And it, yeah, it doesn't go away, it doesn't stop.

597

: 00:26:12

Something I noticed as well recently is the whole knowledge

598

: 00:26:16

gap actually being a real thing.

599

: 00:26:18

And you mentioned there in your question about, you know,

600

: 00:26:21

the education level,

601

: 00:26:22

where do we start talking about accessibility?

602

: 00:26:25

Now, accessibility is not,

603

: 00:26:27

it's hardly mentioned in university courses.

604

: 00:26:31

And it's something I've been looking into because if people

605

: 00:26:34

are coming in, you know, graduates are coming in,

606

: 00:26:36

we take a lot of engineering graduates,

607

: 00:26:38

half of our employees are engineers.

608

: 00:26:42

They're coming in,

609

: 00:26:43

they haven't been taught about accessibility,

610

: 00:26:46

they don't know what it is,

611

: 00:26:48

and they don't know how to code in an accessible way,

612

: 00:26:50

they don't know how to test, that's a real problem,

613

: 00:26:52

we have to then teach them.

614

: 00:26:54

And I just,

615

: 00:26:55

I've started speaking to actually a couple of universities,

616

: 00:26:58

and it's been really, really interesting as soon as,

617

: 00:27:00

as soon as I've approached them, well, we have,

618

: 00:27:01

we have links with Edinburgh University and St Andrews

619

: 00:27:05

University.

620

: 00:27:06

So I had links already,

621

: 00:27:08

so it was really easy to go to them and say, look,

622

: 00:27:11

accessibility is really important,

623

: 00:27:12

how do you talk about it?

624

: 00:27:15

Is it in your courses, your computer science degrees,

625

: 00:27:18

or your human computer interaction courses?

626

: 00:27:22

And the answer was always like, no,

627

: 00:27:23

but we're really interested in it,

628

: 00:27:24

can you tell us a bit more?

629

: 00:27:25

So I've been doing some work with the two universities,

630

: 00:27:28

and it's been fascinating actually, we've got,

631

: 00:27:33

the aim is to get accessibility embedded into their

632

: 00:27:35

curriculum.

633

: 00:27:36

So it's not really to create new courses or anything,

634

: 00:27:38

it's just like when you're talking about design or UX,

635

: 00:27:43

let's talk about inclusive design and how to,

636

: 00:27:45

how to make that work for disabled users.

637

: 00:27:48

When you're, if we talk about testing,

638

: 00:27:49

learning how to test,

639

: 00:27:50

include screen reader testing or keyboard only testing,

640

: 00:27:53

just include it!

641

: 00:27:55

So before we get to that point, there's been,

642

: 00:27:58

we do have to raise more awareness in those,

643

: 00:28:02

in those places.

644

: 00:28:03

So we have a lovely award that I'd just love to mention.

645

: 00:28:06

We have an award going with Edinburgh University,

646

: 00:28:10

it's called the Skyscanner Accessibility and Inclusion

647

: 00:28:12

Award,

648

: 00:28:14

and it's going to the final year student of this academic

649

: 00:28:19

year who, in their dissertation,

650

: 00:28:23

considers accessibility best.

651

: 00:28:25

So we are going to actually be part of the judging panel on

652

: 00:28:27

that, and we'll present the award hopefully at graduation,

653

: 00:28:32

which means I need to get what actually made, but we will,

654

: 00:28:35

we have an award, we have a monetary award as well,

655

: 00:28:39

and that's just great, you know,

656

: 00:28:40

it just gets people thinking about it.

657

: 00:28:42

I've done a lecture there as well on how to make what you

658

: 00:28:44

do accessible.

659

: 00:28:45

And the same with St Andrews,

660

: 00:28:46

we've done a lecture and we've done an online empathy lab

661

: 00:28:49

to their third year computer science students.

662

: 00:28:53

And that was really cool because they're doing a group

663

: 00:28:56

project at the moment.

664

: 00:28:57

So we've given them a bit of a twist of okay now the thing

665

: 00:29:00

you're making has to be accessible to a group of disabled

666

: 00:29:05

users and it's been fab.

667

: 00:29:08

So again we'll go to the we're going to the demos of those

668

: 00:29:12

when they present to their lecturers will go along as well

669

: 00:29:14

and try and ask some hard questions but that that's just

670

: 00:29:18

the start.

671

: 00:29:19

So it's got to be everything about accessibility.

672

: 00:29:22

There's no quick fix with it.

673

: 00:29:24

This is something I've really learned over the last couple

674

: 00:29:26

of years.

675

: 00:29:27

Everything takes time.

676

: 00:29:29

So I think we just have to okay what do we do to raise

677

: 00:29:32

awareness among the students and the staff?

678

: 00:29:35

I can't ask staff just to include stuff that they don't

679

: 00:29:38

necessarily know about you know, in their curriculum,

680

: 00:29:41

how do they mark it, how do they teach it?

681

: 00:29:44

So it's a bit of a process, but one that's really,

682

: 00:29:47

really fascinating.

683

: 00:29:49

So we're going to keep going and see how far we can get

684

: 00:29:51

with them.

685

: 00:29:53

Yeah, oh, it's amazing.

686

: 00:29:54

And what a great thing to put your name to as well for

687

: 00:29:57

SkyScanner and using that brand and that awareness to be

688

: 00:30:00

like, right, work towards this,

689

: 00:30:02

like a genuine award and who wouldn't want to have that

690

: 00:30:06

badge?

691

: 00:30:06

I think it's just brilliant.

692

: 00:30:09

It's so good.

693

: 00:30:10

And it's interesting.

694

: 00:30:11

I saw a post from Gigi,

695

: 00:30:14

who's an accessibility engineer with TPGi.

696

: 00:30:19

And she posted on LinkedIn saying,

697

: 00:30:21

something amazing happened in class the other day.

698

: 00:30:24

Our operations management professor spent 20 minutes of a

699

: 00:30:27

two hour class talking about accessibility.

700

: 00:30:30

And the reactions that she's had on this are just

701

: 00:30:33

phenomenal.

702

: 00:30:33

And it just shows that everyone's like, oh, my God,

703

: 00:30:36

I love it.

704

: 00:30:36

It's actually, you know,

705

: 00:30:38

people are talking about it in class.

706

: 00:30:40

Like, and yeah, to see more and more,

707

: 00:30:44

there's obviously the appetite for it.

708

: 00:30:46

There's so many people that want this to happen.

709

: 00:30:48

And yeah,

710

: 00:30:49

so thank you for your commitment to try and push that as

711

: 00:30:52

well.

712

: 00:30:53

It's crazy that it's not happening.

713

: 00:30:55

So I'm just trying to rectify something and then it's

714

: 00:30:58

starting in a small way.

715

: 00:30:59

But it's not.

716

: 00:31:00

It's such an important integral part of product design and

717

: 00:31:05

development.

718

: 00:31:05

Why is it not talked about?

719

: 00:31:08

Yeah.

720

: 00:31:08

So we can fix this.

721

: 00:31:10

Yes, we can.

722

: 00:31:12

And yeah, I'd love

723

: 00:31:13

to jump on board if there's anything you think that we

724

: 00:31:15

could ever do to help, then yeah,

725

: 00:31:17

we would do whatever we can.

726

: 00:31:19

But amazing.

727

: 00:31:20

And then that brings me onto the next sort of question

728

: 00:31:23

around,

729

: 00:31:25

I was probably jumping back to a question where we mentioned

730

: 00:31:28

how things are quite top heavy and trying to get more sort

731

: 00:31:32

of junior or mid-level resource, I suppose,

732

: 00:31:35

to help with accessibility.

733

: 00:31:40

It's the salaries that are on offer within the UK.

734

: 00:31:43

I think without having that high level buy-in and without

735

: 00:31:46

having the knowledge of the value of accessibility,

736

: 00:31:50

the salaries on offer can be quite mediocre.

737

: 00:31:54

They're not as enticing as purely just a software

738

: 00:31:59

development or a designer or UX writer, maybe.

739

: 00:32:03

It would be more appealing to apply for that job and then

740

: 00:32:06

maybe try and bring it in as part of your job.

741

: 00:32:10

I mean, obviously myself, I'm trying to rectify that.

742

: 00:32:14

The other thing around that is that a lot of people with

743

: 00:32:19

disabilities will use,

744

: 00:32:22

there are charities to support people with disabilities.

745

: 00:32:25

We've got amazing free healthcare in the UK,

746

: 00:32:28

which is phenomenal.

747

: 00:32:31

But then the misconception can sometimes be that because it

748

: 00:32:35

should be as standard, that should be free.

749

: 00:32:38

or a charity should be involved in doing that.

750

: 00:32:40

So why should other people pay for it?

751

: 00:32:42

It's like the moral obligation sort of side of things.

752

: 00:32:44

So how do you think we sort of get around all of that?

753

: 00:32:49

I know it's a big ask and lots of questions in there but

754

: 00:32:52

have you got any sort of pointers?

755

: 00:32:55

It just makes me think of the business case that I used to

756

: 00:33:00

kick off our programme and that I have I suppose developed

757

: 00:33:03

as well over the last few years strengthened it.

758

: 00:33:07

I mean the easy one for us was the moral reasons for this.

759

: 00:33:13

SkyScanner is a really inclusive organisation.

760

: 00:33:17

Our main value is we think traveller first.

761

: 00:33:22

So if that's our value we can't really argue.

762

: 00:33:26

So the moral reasons of not excluding anyone and being

763

: 00:33:32

inclusive were pretty straightforward for me but to get

764

: 00:33:36

across to SkyScanner anyway because they were yes of

765

: 00:33:38

course.

766

: 00:33:39

But the commercial reasons are huge and I think it's just a

767

: 00:33:43

case of explaining them properly to leaders leadership.

768

: 00:33:48

The fact that you hear the numbers a lot of like one in

769

: 00:33:52

five people have a disability.

770

: 00:33:54

It's one in four in some countries.

771

: 00:33:58

Many of those disabilities do affect how people use

772

: 00:34:01

technology,

773

: 00:34:03

how they use their phone or their computer and it's trying

774

: 00:34:06

to put I suppose I hate the question what's the ROI on

775

: 00:34:12

accessibility.

776

: 00:34:12

I hate it and I've still never really been able to answer

777

: 00:34:14

it properly in monetary terms but there are ways that you

778

: 00:34:18

can show okay if we've got 100 million users a month then

779

: 00:34:23

every month there's three million of them are going to be

780

: 00:34:25

using a screen reader.

781

: 00:34:27

Do we want to just close the door on them?

782

: 00:34:30

No that's three million people or you know nine million

783

: 00:34:34

people's dyslexia or there are ways to find those to bring

784

: 00:34:38

down into those numbers.

785

: 00:34:40

And I think that when it's when you bring it home to your

786

: 00:34:42

business, and you can relate it to your customer base,

787

: 00:34:46

it's a bit harder hitting.

788

: 00:34:49

And the amazing thing is there's so much rubbish out there

789

: 00:34:52

that when disabled people find a product that they can use,

790

: 00:34:55

they're going to stick with it,

791

: 00:34:57

they're going to be your salesperson in their community

792

: 00:34:59

saying, like, oh, I can, this works.

793

: 00:35:02

And this is really,

794

: 00:35:03

I can actually finish the journey on this or whatever it

795

: 00:35:06

is.

796

: 00:35:07

That, you know, it's, it's, it's important,

797

: 00:35:10

I think disabled people are particularly loyal as well,

798

: 00:35:12

you know, when they do find something that works.

799

: 00:35:14

So there's, there's those reasons,

800

: 00:35:17

there's the legal reasons as well.

801

: 00:35:19

I mean, it's, it's,

802

: 00:35:21

we talk a lot about carrots and sticks and the legal

803

: 00:35:23

reasons are very much the stick.

804

: 00:35:25

But I think, you know,

805

: 00:35:29

with the European Accessibility Act coming in next year,

806

: 00:35:32

that's a big stick.

807

: 00:35:35

I mean,

808

: 00:35:35

that's That's important and that can get a lot of companies

809

: 00:35:39

into a bit of bother if they're not doing this.

810

: 00:35:42

So I think these laws have been around in the States for a

811

: 00:35:45

lot longer and there's a lot of litigation goes on over

812

: 00:35:47

there.

813

: 00:35:48

How awful to be sued by someone, your risk,

814

: 00:35:54

the reputational risk is no one wants that.

815

: 00:36:00

You just need a program in place with the right things

816

: 00:36:05

happening.

817

: 00:36:06

It doesn't have to be perfect,

818

: 00:36:07

it's impossible to be perfectly accessible but you need to

819

: 00:36:10

be on the journey and doing the right things to be in a

820

: 00:36:15

good place for when that act comes in.

821

: 00:36:16

So that, I mean, if you are operating at all in the EU,

822

: 00:36:23

you fall into that act.

823

: 00:36:25

So that applies to us.

824

: 00:36:28

A lot of the partners we work with as well,

825

: 00:36:30

that applies too.

826

: 00:36:31

So we're going to be telling them about this if they don't

827

: 00:36:34

know about it already and we're going to see how we can

828

: 00:36:36

help them improve the accessibility of their products.

829

: 00:36:40

Because in SkySkiner you get so far with us and then we

830

: 00:36:43

link you out to an airline or an online travel agent to

831

: 00:36:47

actually book.

832

: 00:36:48

And a lot of those journeys aren't very accessible so we're

833

: 00:36:51

going to see what we can do there.

834

: 00:36:52

But that law is something that I really want to let them

835

: 00:36:56

know about because it's coming.

836

: 00:37:02

So there's lots of ways.

837

: 00:37:03

I think making it as relevant to your business as you can

838

: 00:37:07

is the best way to get the buy-in that you need.

839

: 00:37:12

And actually showing people really struggling using your

840

: 00:37:14

product is quite a straightforward one to do and it's quite

841

: 00:37:19

hard hitting.

842

: 00:37:19

If you're showing teams who've actually designed or built

843

: 00:37:22

this thing, actually not working for someone,

844

: 00:37:24

like really not working.

845

: 00:37:26

That can certainly get attention.

846

: 00:37:30

I think that's like you say it's the return on investment

847

: 00:37:33

as well.

848

: 00:37:33

I think unfortunately money is usually a lot of the time

849

: 00:37:37

the only thing that will talk.

850

: 00:37:39

So in terms of getting people to think, well,

851

: 00:37:41

why isn't it just done?

852

: 00:37:42

Why isn't it just free?

853

: 00:37:43

Why do we need to pay someone to do that?

854

: 00:37:45

It's making them realise this really is a specialist area.

855

: 00:37:49

It's not just something that you know,

856

: 00:37:52

it's easy to implement.

857

: 00:37:53

There's so much to it.

858

: 00:37:54

And like you're saying there,

859

: 00:37:56

there's there's so many different avenues you could go down

860

: 00:37:58

when you're trying to gain that buy-in.

861

: 00:38:00

And with the the EAA or the European Accessibility Laws

862

: 00:38:05

that are coming in next year,

863

: 00:38:08

I feel like it's not even those that are operating in

864

: 00:38:11

Europe that need to be aware and prepare for it because

865

: 00:38:14

their competitors will be operating in Europe.

866

: 00:38:17

And if they are now accessible,

867

: 00:38:19

just because they fall under this European Act,

868

: 00:38:22

then you're already losing out to your competitors.

869

: 00:38:29

So why not follow suit and do the right thing first and

870

: 00:38:33

foremost, but even from a business perspective,

871

: 00:38:36

it makes sense for anyone to follow along those guidelines.

872

: 00:38:40

It absolutely does.

873

: 00:38:42

I mean,

874

: 00:38:43

and all the stuff we were talking about earlier about that

875

: 00:38:45

shift left, that can save so much money.

876

: 00:38:49

If you actually do it properly and embed it into your

877

: 00:38:51

processes from the start,

878

: 00:38:53

the difference is huge in terms of time and money spent on

879

: 00:38:57

making something accessible.

880

: 00:38:59

So it all goes hand in hand, doesn't it?

881

: 00:39:02

But you need people in place who know what they're doing to

882

: 00:39:05

actually get it up and running properly.

883

: 00:39:08

Yeah, I think it's demonstrating the results as well,

884

: 00:39:11

isn't it?

885

: 00:39:12

I think as much as we do a lot of the user research in

886

: 00:39:14

terms of trying to find the mistakes that have been made or

887

: 00:39:17

trying to find those barriers,

888

: 00:39:18

I think it's just as important to actually sometimes,

889

: 00:39:23

and it sounds bad, but sing your own praises and be like,

890

: 00:39:25

look what we've done so well.

891

: 00:39:27

Or look,

892

: 00:39:27

it's sometimes hard to measure the impact of the actual

893

: 00:39:29

overall impact.

894

: 00:39:31

But I think to celebrate those wins is just as important to

895

: 00:39:37

sort of try and convince people they're needed.

896

: 00:39:40

I think it's we're seeing a lot more,

897

: 00:39:42

I think with like Apple,

898

: 00:39:43

they've done their sort of advertisement for the voice app

899

: 00:39:50

that they've now got, where it will replicate your voice.

900

: 00:39:53

So for those, and I just find it astonishing,

901

: 00:39:56

it's another thing that I wouldn't have thought of as being

902

: 00:39:58

a regular thing, a regular barrier that,

903

: 00:40:02

but even if that's something that's temporary,

904

: 00:40:04

it's great to be able to have your voice still there.

905

: 00:40:07

I think doing these podcasts, because I speak so much,

906

: 00:40:11

sometimes maybe I think I should programme an app to do for

907

: 00:40:15

me.

908

: 00:40:16

And it is true that accessible design is better for

909

: 00:40:21

everyone.

910

: 00:40:22

It really is.

911

: 00:40:22

I mean,

912

: 00:40:22

we've had a few examples where we're trying to make something

913

: 00:40:25

work for different users and disabled users and actually

914

: 00:40:31

it's changed the design, the general design for the better.

915

: 00:40:37

You know it's either simplified something or it's made us

916

: 00:40:39

explain something a bit better,

917

: 00:40:41

a bit more clearly and that has a huge impact.

918

: 00:40:46

So I think it really is true.

919

: 00:40:48

I think there was a misconception that you know an

920

: 00:40:50

accessible website would be really boring and really you

921

: 00:40:55

know not have any creativity in it at all but it's the

922

: 00:40:58

opposite.

923

: 00:40:59

It's absolutely the opposite.

924

: 00:41:01

We're just a bit more careful with colour combinations and

925

: 00:41:04

other words you know controlled with our layout.

926

: 00:41:06

Which again is better for everyone because even someone,

927

: 00:41:09

I know we both wear glasses,

928

: 00:41:11

but even for me I just think why would you put grey on

929

: 00:41:14

white background?

930

: 00:41:15

I just don't, I can't, it's not good for anyone.

931

: 00:41:18

Like for me I'm just like I'd rather be able to actually

932

: 00:41:20

read what you're trying to sell me.

933

: 00:41:22

Exactly and then if it doesn't work when you're trying to

934

: 00:41:24

increase the size of the text,

935

: 00:41:25

I do this on my phone all the time when I don't have my

936

: 00:41:27

glasses on and like no, move on, can't read it.

937

: 00:41:30

Yeah, exactly.

938

: 00:41:31

But amazing.

939

: 00:41:35

So with yourself, Heather,

940

: 00:41:37

and for this episode I wanted to try something different

941

: 00:41:40

and this could go terribly wrong but it's fine because I

942

: 00:41:43

could always edit it out if it's, I'm joking.

943

: 00:41:46

I thought it'd be nice if you could ask me a question.

944

: 00:41:49

So as much as you are the expert, absolutely,

945

: 00:41:53

I'm saying I'm an expert in any way,

946

: 00:41:54

shape or form when it comes to accessibility,

947

: 00:41:56

but on the recruitment side or staff attraction and

948

: 00:42:00

retention,

949

: 00:42:01

I'm hoping that this is a platform where I can actually

950

: 00:42:04

share some knowledge to people that are listening as well.

951

: 00:42:07

So if you've got any questions that you'd like me to try

952

: 00:42:10

and answer then, be kind, but fire away.

953

: 00:42:15

Well, yeah, actually can I,

954

: 00:42:16

I'm allowed to ask you two questions.

955

: 00:42:18

Yeah, of course, yeah.

956

: 00:42:19

Okay.

957

: 00:42:20

So that, well,

958

: 00:42:21

this is something that I've been thinking about a bit

959

: 00:42:23

because we have a,

960

: 00:42:27

we use a digital accessibility maturity model to kind of

961

: 00:42:32

track our progress with the maturity of the program.

962

: 00:42:36

And it also gives a lovely guide as to things you should be

963

: 00:42:39

doing to progress through the levels of maturity.

964

: 00:42:43

I like it,

965

: 00:42:44

it informs direction for some of the stuff we do,

966

: 00:42:46

which is really nice.

967

: 00:42:48

And one of the things that we're not doing very well is

968

: 00:42:51

including accessibility requirements or asking for

969

: 00:42:57

accessibility skills or knowledge or experience in our job

970

: 00:43:00

descriptions.

971

: 00:43:03

And I wondered if that can be maybe because it can be off

972

: 00:43:10

-putting for some people if they don't have that particular

973

: 00:43:14

experience or knowledge it might put people off applying

974

: 00:43:17

but actually it's a really important you know we would love

975

: 00:43:21

to find more people with those skills.

976

: 00:43:25

How do we get around that?

977

: 00:43:30

The easy and ego-inflating answer for me would be to work

978

: 00:43:33

with someone like me.

979

: 00:43:36

I trapped you!

980

: 00:43:38

No I'm joking.

981

: 00:43:39

So when it comes to job specs I think it really can be and

982

: 00:43:43

there's some statistics around this I'm not going to get

983

: 00:43:45

them 100% accurate but something like 75% of female

984

: 00:43:49

applicants won't apply for a job if they don't hit every

985

: 00:43:53

single requirement that they read on a job spec.

986

: 00:43:55

75% is huge so you've just really really minimised your

987

: 00:44:00

potential reach for great talent.

988

: 00:44:03

It's slightly less in men maybe.

989

: 00:44:06

We have bigger egos and think we'll slip through.

990

: 00:44:09

But I think it's about 50 percent still.

991

: 00:44:11

So it's still a huge,

992

: 00:44:12

huge margin of people that may see something and they

993

: 00:44:16

think, well, they're never going to look at me,

994

: 00:44:19

so I'm not going to apply.

995

: 00:44:21

What I would suggest is, in a way, changing the wording,

996

: 00:44:27

what your requirements are for the role,

997

: 00:44:29

rather than putting it as a bullet point requirement as we

998

: 00:44:32

see in so many job specs,

999

: 00:44:33

I would put it in the description of what you're trying to

: 1000

00:44:36,340 --> 00:44:36,720

achieve.

: 1001

00:44:37,180 --> 00:44:42,440

"When we are developing any of our new features or

: 1002

00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:42,820

platforms,

: 1003

00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,500

we always want to keep all of our users in mind",

: 1004

00:44:45,580 --> 00:44:49,760

and it's using that wording and making sure that it's not

: 1005

00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,300

biased in the regular way towards a normal,

: 1006

00:44:55,020 --> 00:44:59,580

just as quick as possible, minimum viable products.

: 1007

00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:00,640

We want to just get it done.

: 1008

00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:04,320

I would probably look at the wording,

: 1009

00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,860

the copywriting of the job spec and just say, "our

: 1010

00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,640

commitment at Sky Scanner is to ensure that everyone's

: 1011

00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,320

included". "We're looking to speak with people that have

: 1012

00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,460

thought outside of the box and not just followed ingested

: 1013

00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:17,980

frameworks."

: 1014

00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:20,960

If you're using semantic HTML and things like that.

: 1015

00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,280

I think those sorts of things,

: 1016

00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:25,960

I'm thinking purely from development job specs because

: 1017

00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,000

that's usually my niche,

: 1018

00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,640

but that's what I would start with, at least.

: 1019

00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,820

Hopefully that will attract people that are like-minded and

: 1020

00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:39,180

already thinking that they might not have it on their CV,

: 1021

00:45:39,460 --> 00:45:40,300

but that's another thing,

: 1022

00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,160

another discussion to have with internal recruitment teams

: 1023

00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,400

or the recruitment companies that you decide to partner

: 1024

00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:47,840

with to help find these people.

: 1025

00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:54,860

Can you not exclude anyone that doesn't have accessibility

: 1026

00:45:54,860 --> 00:45:58,640

on their CVs, but as a pre-screening question,

: 1027

00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,260

before you put them in front of me,

: 1028

00:46:00,260 --> 00:46:02,120

we just want to know if they know anything about

: 1029

00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,620

accessibility and that's always something I would put just

: 1030

00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:06,040

so it's...

: 1031

00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,880

it's an additional, it's another string to their bow.

: 1032

00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:11,940

And without, you know,

: 1033

00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,320

that way you don't make it a 100% requirement,

: 1034

00:46:15,660 --> 00:46:18,460

but you're in the know before they even get to interview

: 1035

00:46:18,460 --> 00:46:22,020

stage that you can start to just plant that seed and have

: 1036

00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:22,640

that conversation.

: 1037

00:46:23,260 --> 00:46:23,660

Nice.

: 1038

00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,940

I guess I guess you could also include it in the interview

: 1039

00:46:27,940 --> 00:46:31,000

stage if it was too hard to get it into the job description

: 1040

00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:31,440

itself.

: 1041

00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:32,200

But I do like that.

: 1042

00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:32,320

Yeah.

: 1043

00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,320

Talking about it, not as a requirement,

: 1044

00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,180

but something that we do so that people who do have those

: 1045

00:46:38,180 --> 00:46:39,200

skills will talk about them.

: 1046

00:46:39,460 --> 00:46:39,920

But yeah,

: 1047

00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,600

we could we could ask if people are doing a coding

: 1048

00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:43,120

exercise,

: 1049

00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:46,020

we could ask the question one just one question about,

: 1050

00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:46,460

okay, well,

: 1051

00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:50,180

how do you make that accessible or is that accessible talk

: 1052

00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:51,380

to talk to us about it.

: 1053

00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:52,640

Yeah, definitely.

: 1054

00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,200

And even if it's just one element, you know, it could be.

: 1055

00:46:56,020 --> 00:47:01,180

Could you magnify this text and does it stay within the

: 1056

00:47:01,180 --> 00:47:01,460

parameters?

: 1057

00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:03,760

Or can you make sure that it's responsive for different

: 1058

00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:04,500

screen sizes?

: 1059

00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,380

Or could you just tab through this if you didn't have use

: 1060

00:47:07,380 --> 00:47:07,840

of a mouse?

: 1061

00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,680

It's actually just the thought process rather than the

: 1062

00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,240

sometimes the practicality or the actual technical side.

: 1063

00:47:15,420 --> 00:47:15,600

It's like,

: 1064

00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,060

I hadn't even thought of just tabbing through because I

: 1065

00:47:18,060 --> 00:47:20,040

always use a mouse or a trackpad.

: 1066

00:47:20,340 --> 00:47:20,580

So yeah.

: 1067

00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:22,140

Nice.

: 1068

00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,000

I might talk to you more about that.

: 1069

00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:26,580

Thank you.

: 1070

00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:27,440

And my other question.

: 1071

00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:29,220

Well, we were,

: 1072

00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,140

you know about this because we were we chatted about it,

: 1073

00:47:32,140 --> 00:47:35,020

but we we were trying to hire a visually impaired software

: 1074

00:47:35,020 --> 00:47:37,000

engineer last year.

: 1075

00:47:37,340 --> 00:47:40,160

And we did we did find some candidates,

: 1076

00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:41,720

but we didn't manage to fill the role.

: 1077

00:47:42,380 --> 00:47:43,720

We've taken it down for now,

: 1078

00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,900

but we are going to re-launch it,

: 1079

00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:47,020

which I'm very excited about.

: 1080

00:47:47,820 --> 00:47:51,220

It was it was it was challenging, you know,

: 1081

00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:52,640

to find to find people.

: 1082

00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,540

So what would you have tips for finding the right person

: 1083

00:47:55,540 --> 00:47:59,560

and how we make that recruitment process as inclusive as

: 1084

00:47:59,560 --> 00:47:59,920

possible?

: 1085

00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:05,760

I think it is a it's a task in and of itself.

: 1086

00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:10,140

I think that I've done a lot of work on making sure that

: 1087

00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:14,120

the job boards that I post my jobs on are accessible so

: 1088

00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,560

that I am still reaching the market of people that may have

: 1089

00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,060

visual impairments or any other form of potential

: 1090

00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:21,500

disability or impairment,

: 1091

00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,540

then they are able to get through to that stage where

: 1092

00:48:24,540 --> 00:48:25,320

they've sent the CV.

: 1093

00:48:26,020 --> 00:48:28,000

They can let me know if they if they want to disclose,

: 1094

00:48:28,180 --> 00:48:28,820

they don't have to,

: 1095

00:48:28,820 --> 00:48:32,020

any sort of additional requirements they might have.

: 1096

00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:34,140

But then.

: 1097

00:48:35,060 --> 00:48:36,500

I think, yeah,

: 1098

00:48:36,540 --> 00:48:39,180

it's just you're naturally already going to exclude people

: 1099

00:48:39,180 --> 00:48:41,100

if you're just posting them out and you don't have an

: 1100

00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:41,840

accessible website.

: 1101

00:48:42,180 --> 00:48:42,780

If you don't,

: 1102

00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:45,800

you're not using a job board where people with disabilities

: 1103

00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:46,660

would use.

: 1104

00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,240

There is one example, Evenbreak,

: 1105

00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,880

and I would love to speak more about about them in a future

: 1106

00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,040

episode or down the line, but they are

: 1107

00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,980

a job board built by people with disabilities for people

: 1108

00:48:58,980 --> 00:49:00,480

with disabilities looking for work.

: 1109

00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:07,060

And it's not just one area of work,

: 1110

00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:09,260

it's not just working in accessibility either,

: 1111

00:49:09,460 --> 00:49:13,360

it's just that these are companies that are committed to a

: 1112

00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,900

fully inclusive process when it comes to employment and

: 1113

00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:19,120

they consider your anyone's needs.

: 1114

00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,940

And I just think that's a great thing to have that kind of

: 1115

00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:23,300

platform.

: 1116

00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,040

I think we've always,

: 1117

00:49:27,860 --> 00:49:30,100

so we're in a very unique position as a recruitment

: 1118

00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:32,860

consultancy that work specifically in digital

: 1119

00:49:32,860 --> 00:49:33,340

accessibility.

: 1120

00:49:34,340 --> 00:49:37,780

It was something that came up with for my boss,

: 1121

00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,180

the director of PCR, through one of our clients,

: 1122

00:49:42,260 --> 00:49:44,040

nearly said who then but we're not allowed to say who they

: 1123

00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:44,200

are.

: 1124

00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:46,840

And they just asked for these requirements.

: 1125

00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:48,100

And at that stage,

: 1126

00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:50,340

we didn't really know how to attract those people.

: 1127

00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:55,880

We initially set up the Accessibility, London

: 1128

00:49:56,300 --> 00:49:59,660

Accessibility Meetup group, which has now changed hands.

: 1129

00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,740

However, we had to think outside the box.

: 1130

00:50:03,860 --> 00:50:06,460

We had to meet people in person and invite them in and

: 1131

00:50:06,460 --> 00:50:07,560

attract them in that way,

: 1132

00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,320

rather than just put a job up and expect them to apply.

: 1133

00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,200

We had to ask for recommendations, go out to the network,

: 1134

00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:16,400

which you've got an amazing one.

: 1135

00:50:16,660 --> 00:50:21,360

So it's: "Do you have any recommendations?" But I think

: 1136

00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:22,160

first and foremost,

: 1137

00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:26,580

is making sure that that application process is as

: 1138

00:50:26,580 --> 00:50:27,600

accessible as possible.

: 1139

00:50:28,180 --> 00:50:30,620

And having that voice and wording it in the right way and

: 1140

00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:33,040

making sure that you get the right kind of people applying

: 1141

00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:33,620

for the job.

: 1142

00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,180

And I will always say, obviously,

: 1143

00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,720

partnering with someone that's working in the space will

: 1144

00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,040

help, because I can cut a lot of the noise out.

: 1145

00:50:42,140 --> 00:50:43,820

So if it's an internal recruitment team,

: 1146

00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,800

you are going to get every applicant that you can think of.

: 1147

00:50:49,580 --> 00:50:53,380

And if one of the key things you need is someone that has

: 1148

00:50:53,380 --> 00:50:55,060

experienced or lived experience,

: 1149

00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,480

or has some form of visual impairment,

: 1150

00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:03,040

a lot of people can automate their job applications process

: 1151

00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:03,580

as well,

: 1152

00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,760

because there's not a nice position to be in looking for a

: 1153

00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:06,940

job.

: 1154

00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,620

So "I'll chance my luck.

: 1155

00:51:08,820 --> 00:51:14,400

I'll send it out to every job posting that mentions these

: 1156

00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:15,220

technical skills,

: 1157

00:51:15,380 --> 00:51:18,140

but I might not have the other requirements or soft

: 1158

00:51:18,140 --> 00:51:18,440

skills".

: 1159

00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,600

So yeah, I think it does help to minimize the noise of,

: 1160

00:51:25,060 --> 00:51:26,220

not I don't want to say irrelevant,

: 1161

00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,400

but people that aren't quite what you're looking for.

: 1162

00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,020

But it's a lengthy process.

: 1163

00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,380

We could get a lot of applicants without a visual

: 1164

00:51:34,380 --> 00:51:34,700

impairment.

: 1165

00:51:35,580 --> 00:51:37,580

And it was a really clearly stated as well.

: 1166

00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,760

It was a question in the form as well, the initial form.

: 1167

00:51:41,260 --> 00:51:41,800

Yeah.

: 1168

00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:43,720

Yeah, I hear you.

: 1169

00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:44,460

I think that's good advice.

: 1170

00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,000

And yeah,

: 1171

00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,920

we'll definitely talk to you before we launch it again.

: 1172

00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:52,360

That'd be great.

: 1173

00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:53,960

I mean, yeah, and it is,

: 1174

00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:57,320

I think I'm very fortunate to know people with those skills

: 1175

00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:02,360

that do have lived experience or any form of impairment.

: 1176

00:52:03,220 --> 00:52:06,240

And a lot of the time people won't disclose that as well,

: 1177

00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:08,260

so that makes the search even harder,

: 1178

00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,500

because if you're going to do a head hunt for people with

: 1179

00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:13,100

disabilities or, for this example,

: 1180

00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:14,720

a visually impaired developer,

: 1181

00:52:15,260 --> 00:52:17,000

there are people that may be visually impaired,

: 1182

00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:20,900

but wouldn't put that on LinkedIn or on their CV because

: 1183

00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:24,700

they don't need to, but also, unfortunately,

: 1184

00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:26,340

some companies will think, well,

: 1185

00:52:27,820 --> 00:52:30,420

how are they going to look at the design of what they've

: 1186

00:52:30,420 --> 00:52:30,760

created?

: 1187

00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:37,140

You know, it's difficult for people in that position,

: 1188

00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,700

so I think it's just being sensitive to it all as well,

: 1189

00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:45,520

because it's quite easy to write off people if they haven't

: 1190

00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,120

put quite clearly on their CV, oh I'm blind,

: 1191

00:52:48,460 --> 00:52:50,580

but I develop code then

: 1192

00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:52,840

we're doing everyone a disservice as well.

: 1193

00:52:52,980 --> 00:52:54,920

So again, it's just a lengthy, lengthy process.

: 1194

00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,660

I think it just takes a lot of time and trust,

: 1195

00:52:58,880 --> 00:52:59,880

I think as well.

: 1196

00:53:00,260 --> 00:53:01,440

Yes, I agree.

: 1197

00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:03,300

Thank you.

: 1198

00:53:03,940 --> 00:53:04,060

Great.

: 1199

00:53:04,540 --> 00:53:05,520

No problem, thanks for the questions.

: 1200

00:53:05,780 --> 00:53:06,160

They were really good.

: 1201

00:53:06,260 --> 00:53:07,520

They were quite challenging, but hopefully,

: 1202

00:53:07,740 --> 00:53:10,220

hopefully that helps.

: 1203

00:53:11,060 --> 00:53:14,080

But that does unfortunately bring me to final thoughts.

: 1204

00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:16,200

I don't want to take any more of your time up.

: 1205

00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,220

I know it's a working day and you've got plenty to get back

: 1206

00:53:18,220 --> 00:53:18,440

to.

: 1207

00:53:18,860 --> 00:53:22,200

But I'd just like to give you the opportunity to let

: 1208

00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,920

everyone know anything of real importance to you at the

: 1209

00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:25,160

moment,

: 1210

00:53:25,220 --> 00:53:28,920

either within accessibility or just in your personal life.

: 1211

00:53:29,780 --> 00:53:30,940

Thank you.

: 1212

00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,160

There's loads of things.

: 1213

00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:35,800

Front of mind,

: 1214

00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,200

if we're speaking to an audience who isn't maybe thinking

: 1215

00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,920

about accessibility yet or doesn't have programs in place,

: 1216

00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:48,320

I think my message really is just to do it now.

: 1217

00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,880

Something I've learned and something I've realised recently

: 1218

00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:57,600

is it just takes so long to actually make proper progress.

: 1219

00:53:58,620 --> 00:54:01,900

So this program that Skyscanner has been running for four

: 1220

00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:05,520

years and I'm really proud of where we've got to,

: 1221

00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:08,360

but we're not done, we're not nearly done.

: 1222

00:54:09,020 --> 00:54:10,020

We'll never be done.

: 1223

00:54:10,180 --> 00:54:12,180

I mean, it's always, it's an ongoing thing,

: 1224

00:54:13,220 --> 00:54:16,620

but to get to where we are has taken so long and there's so

: 1225

00:54:16,620 --> 00:54:20,120

much more we can do to get to that really great place.

: 1226

00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:23,200

So it's not a quick fix.

: 1227

00:54:24,060 --> 00:54:26,820

And I think particularly with this law coming in next year,

: 1228

00:54:27,180 --> 00:54:31,600

people might find themselves having a last minute panic

: 1229

00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,860

about it and it's gonna be challenging to do anything

: 1230

00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:40,200

constructive in a few months, even a year really.

: 1231

00:54:41,580 --> 00:54:43,800

So I would just want to, I mean,

: 1232

00:54:43,860 --> 00:54:45,540

this is that I think it's front of mind because we're going

: 1233

00:54:45,540 --> 00:54:48,820

to be going to our partners very soon to be saying this.

: 1234

00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:50,560

I hope a lot of them already know about it.

: 1235

00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,140

but we're going to be giving them the message as well and

: 1236

00:54:53,140 --> 00:54:54,900

offering our support and our help.

: 1237

00:54:55,060 --> 00:54:56,120

You know, how can we help you?

: 1238

00:54:56,940 --> 00:55:02,800

But I think if everyone is aware of that and aware of the

: 1239

00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,100

work that is actually involved in, you know,

: 1240

00:55:06,220 --> 00:55:09,100

you can have a push, you can push to fix some bugs.

: 1241

00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:15,700

And then the next thing is launched two weeks later and it

: 1242

00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:16,580

breaks everything again.

: 1243

00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,340

So you have to have processes in place,

: 1244

00:55:20,500 --> 00:55:22,300

you have to have capability in your teams,

: 1245

00:55:23,300 --> 00:55:25,400

you have to have a bit of a strategy going on.

: 1246

00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:26,660

So yeah,

: 1247

00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,600

it would just be a little bit of advice just to get going

: 1248

00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,220

now because it takes ages.

: 1249

00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:33,880

Yeah, I completely agree.

: 1250

00:55:34,740 --> 00:55:37,060

And yeah, just on that point,

: 1251

00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,100

I think it is just so important that you've got that solid

: 1252

00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:42,240

internal communication between teams as well,

: 1253

00:55:42,260 --> 00:55:44,660

because you might be working towards a fix for something.

: 1254

00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,040

But if there's no communication to say, well, actually,

: 1255

00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:48,760

this is coming in.

: 1256

00:55:48,820 --> 00:55:50,160

It's going to just overlay everything,

: 1257

00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:51,800

oh that's a dirty word actually, isn't it?

: 1258

00:55:51,860 --> 00:55:52,140

Overlay...

: 1259

00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:58,400

But if it's going to just sort of impact on what you've

: 1260

00:55:58,400 --> 00:55:59,260

been working for,

: 1261

00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,960

then it can feel like a real waste of time,

: 1262

00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:02,740

effort and money.

: 1263

00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:04,580

But yeah, no, brilliant.

: 1264

00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:05,780

Thank you so much, Heather.

: 1265

00:56:06,220 --> 00:56:08,120

And yeah, it brings me to the end of the podcast.

: 1266

00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:10,400

I always love talking to you.

: 1267

00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:11,660

I always learn so much.

: 1268

00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,000

So I'm really appreciative of you taking the time.

: 1269

00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:19,980

And I'm sure that everyone that listens will be equally as

: 1270

00:56:19,980 --> 00:56:21,180

appreciative.

: 1271

00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,020

So thank you for everything that you've told us today and

: 1272

00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:27,140

for all the work that you're doing with Skyscanner and

: 1273

00:56:27,140 --> 00:56:28,160

beyond that.

: 1274

00:56:28,820 --> 00:56:31,800

I'm looking forward to collaborating with you more,

: 1275

00:56:32,140 --> 00:56:34,120

moving forward at meetups,

: 1276

00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,720

hopefully some events and things in the near future.

: 1277

00:56:38,500 --> 00:56:39,760

But yeah, as always,

: 1278

00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:44,960

I'll share any links to any sources or any links to your

: 1279

00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,700

social media as well so people can get in touch directly.

: 1280

00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,220

But yeah, really appreciate your time.

: 1281

00:56:52,780 --> 00:56:53,700

Well, thank you so much, Joe.

: 1282

00:56:53,780 --> 00:56:55,300

I really enjoyed talking to you.

: 1283

00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:56,940

And let's chat again soon.

: 1284

00:56:57,140 --> 00:56:57,460

Thank you.

Share Episode

Shownotes

Transcripts

Follow

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube