How should White people respond/act/feel/think after another White nationalist massacre?

In this special episode Jenny and Loran hold space for each other and other White people in a way that honors the paradox of being White in the US. We’ll reconvene with our regularly scheduled focus group next week.

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In the episode Loran references the Ashtin Berry Instagram post which may be found here.

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Welcome to our podcast. We’re so glad you’re here refocusing on Whiteness without supremacy or shame. Listen. Like. Follow.

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For a transcript of this episode and more, please visit our website, www.thespillway.org

Mentioned in this episode:

The Spillway Community Guidelines

1. Engage sequentially. The show is a serial not episodic. We do this so we can build relation and find common ground and context. 2. We stay in our own lane. The Spillway is about White people talking to (predominately) White people about White people and White culture. We're not out here to critique anyone's actions but our own. 3. Our combined fabric of destiny. (3a) As Dr. King said, our humanities are deeply interconnected to each other. Racism negatively impacts me, too. (3b) The Spillway is one mechanism within a larger framework needed to sustain racial equity and justice. We're not a one-stop shop. 4. No one right way to liberation. We all share the same goals, but not every method works for every person. If this doesn't work for you. That's okay. Maybe it works for someone else.

When violence happens against and to people of Color, White people

have a vast spectrum of responses from complete inaction and not thinking

about it and refusing an emotional response to a hyper fixation on

action round the clock thinking and vigilant emotional dysregulation.

Both of these responses, completely refuse to acknowledge our own humanity

and the need to put on our own oxygen mask

first.

In 1963, Martin Luther King wrote in Strength to Love "In a real

sense, all life is interrelated.

All people are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality,

tied in a single garment of destiny."

Paralyzing responses happen from inaction to being stuck in overdrive.

Neither of these are sustainable and here, Jenny and I want to hold

space for each other and for other White people in a way that honors the

paradox of being White in the U S.

We'll reconvene with our regularly scheduled focus group next week.

But for now, join us in this space.

If you'd like.

I feel like my brain is going a hundred miles a minute and I don't really

sure where to start or what to do.

Um, why don't you

talk about what came up for you?

We can start there.

I mean, we don't have to use it.

My very first thought as soon as a notification popped

up on New York Times on my phone was, oh, I hope my friends arew

okay.

Two humans that I love that are in Buffalo.

And then my second thought was, "wow, this is becoming more common, like just

a few weeks before was, uh, the shooting and the New York city subway system."

Uh, and so like the uptick in incidents, like of this level of

this magnitude, cause mass shootings happen, unfortunately every day.

Hmm.

Um, that was point two and then point three.

Was this like really awful scratch?

Just like in the back of my head of like, "I really hope this wasn't

racially motivated" and then it was, I mean, they're still saying allegedly,

but based off of all of the pieces that are coming through the news about

like what was inscribed on his gun.

Uh, the great replacement theory that he was talking about, like on his live

stream, on his way up there, uh, like all of these signs are like clearly

pointing to this is White supremacy.

This is White supremacists, White nationalism, terrorism.

Uh, and just the fact that like, having to say allegedly, because he

hasn't been convicted yet, or that like, when he went in front of a

fucking judge, he pled not guilty.

Like the fuck what the fuck like that.

And when I get really sad,

So fucking frustrated that Black people can't go grocery shopping

without fearing for their lives.

Like, it just feels so intentional to be like, you can't have food, I will

kill you while you try to get food to sustain your life to nourish your body.

And then I had this moment.

Um, so you texted me that the morning after.

With the New York Times article that was like updating as it was going on.

And I know this wasn't your intention.

Your intention was for it to like land as a compliment, but I became terrified.

Uh, when you said, ah, "I didn't know about the great replacement theory until

you told me about it, or I wouldn't have known about this without your work."

And then I immediately felt.

Because I guess the just like larger context, we're also in the

process of people receiving The Spillway podcasts out of context,

and then contacting us and being.

Whoa, this is so problematic and we're like, whoa, hold on.

This is a serial, it's not an episodic show.

What do you mean?

Oh, well I didn't read or listened to the other episodes, but you

need to change this regardless.

And so this whole, like out of context thing has been

like in the back of my mind.

Because we're having these conversations, these recorded conversations and people

are dipping in whenever they want to.

And so what if there's some stupid fucking White nationalists listening to this?

And it's like, oh, because of The Spillway I know about the great replacement theory.

Let me go over here to Four Chan and fuck up some shit and then became like, oh my

God, how, how, how do we do this work?

How, how do I do this work in public?

And again, I'm reiterating, I know that wasn't your intention.

At all.

And so it's been really, I have had a lot of, um, a lot of

like deep sads, a lot of grief.

Uh, I like greive for the futures that we won't know because these types

were taken from us from the world.

And also like, it just makes me want to do the work all that much more because

like, it's such a clear demonstration.

Uh, that White people are fucking hurting and hurting so bad, but not calling

it hurt and killing people because we devalue mental health because we devalue

education because we devalue community.

I mean, those are some bold statements that, yeah.

And there's exceptions to every rule, but like, and then there's

this other piece too, Jenny, where this awful massacre has happened.

And I do not want to then and chime in and be like, Hey, I've got a service that's

going to help with us, or like help with the pain or the hurt, or try to capitalize

off this in any fucking capacity.

Um, because we are culturally, not at a place, uh, where we are

thinking about our combined destiny.

And that our humanity is wrapped up in this moment too, as White people,

that we are hurting and grieving and have moral injury, that we have a

perpetrated induced traumatic stress because of this fucking asshole.

And some of us are going to get stuck in this moment and

it will radicalize more people.

How did it play out for you since Saturday?

Well, I didn't know about it until Sunday actually.

Cause I was, that's why I sent you the article a day late because I

thought it had ha was happening in real time.

When I was looking at it, it was con I wasn't,

um, I was wrapped up in, in working and didn't see it until then.

Um, so I actually, my, my partner told me about it in the car where

we were headed to go have lunch.

And then it was like, so you know that, so, or something's happened.

So I was like, okay, buckle in.

And, uh,

he

told me.

You know, break down of what had happened.

My first thought was of just hopelessness, like all of the color drained down in

my face and I was just like, lift some

fucking shit.

And then I was like, okay, well it's already happened.

I can't change that, but what can I do moving forward?

And I was like, well, Loran's work is about this.

And I need to take what I've learned and start having conversations because

that's what I do best is I talk.

So I did, I had it with my partner.

I had it with my relative and.

I don't see a lot of people every day.

So there is that problem, but I went through my books and I found

books that would educate me on how to talk more, um, about this with

confidence, but also, and also with compassion, um, because I, I also.

Learn through books.

That's my, my school, my church, like, that's what I do.

So, so that's what I, that's what I've been doing.

It was more, I don't think I am allowing myself to understand the

amount of loss on a personal level.

Um,

I, I just, can't my heart, my heart.

Can't like, I can't, I, I, a part of it is that I don't want to shed

tears that aren't mine to shed.

Um, I th they don't need another White person crying over them.

They need.

Uh, specifically a White woman.

Um, they need me to get my shit together and start talking to other White people.

That's how you save lives.

So,

so that.

Yeah.

I also just want to hold space that might get that's how you save lives.

And also like the reason that we're saving lives is because they are alive.

They are people.

Oh, for sure.

No, I, and I totally understand that part of it.

I'm not saying that they're not people, otherwise I wouldn't care,

but I also, I can't think I wrote in my morning pages this morning

that I like can't think about.

Those people individually, because if I do it'll crush me,

like, I can't think about that.

I think about them as a collective and there was something great lost, and

that's all I'm allowing myself to feel right now, because if I go any further,

I will be paralyzed by fear and I will and sorrow, and I won't do anything.

I can't think about how each of them was a person and had dreams and

worries, and what the last thing they were thinking before they went to

the grocery store, which was like, maybe like, oh shit, my phone's dying.

Or there's a rock in my shoe.

Or like, who knows?

Just human things.

I can't, I can't allow myself to go there only because I know myself

and then I won't do anything.

So I donated.

With some money to somewhere that I thought would actually help specifically

the families of the people who died.

And once I am working more this week, and once I get more money, I'm going

to donate to organizations that are going to help the wider community.

And I'm going to keep educating and keep talking and keep

showing up to this podcast.

And I hope that it makes a

difference.

I love that we're having different experiences out of best that are both.

Like moving us and propelling our like, make our positions of

advantage and privilege in the world.

And also just acknowledging, you know, the, the limitations that

we, that we have as just humans.

How, yeah.

How we show up or can't show up.

I mean, you know, me normally I'm just a puddle with anything,

just a little puddle of tears.

And I don't think that that's wrong.

But what I noticed with myself is that if I allow myself to go there,

at least initially, when something happens then, or you don't move forward,

I don't find anything to hold on to.

And I just drown.

So I, I made an active choice not to do that this time.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I understand that.

I think there's this, um, Rudy Giuliani quote that is coming to my mind.

Was it when he was in front of the.

Yeah,

He's such a fucking mess.

Um, but like, I want to say like a decade ago, um, my dad was like,

you should read his autobiography.

And I was like, okay, why?

Whatever.

Like, and I was like looking for something to read and he's like hit

me at the right time with this recc.

And so he picked it up, like not really thinking too much about.

He said, "you can miss a wedding, but you can't miss a funeral."

And that's just like his little, like a little adage that he lives by or lived by.

I'm not sure if he still adheres to it, but I thought like, that's so

brilliant that like, when, when things are happy and things are joyful.

It's great to be invited.

It's great to be included, but when we are hurting, when we are like in our

deep hurts and harms, and we don't know which way is up: to be in community,

like what that does for ourselves and for each other, like, it's huge.

It's huge.

And so maybe, yeah, it's like this broken clock moment, but it's.

I keep thinking about, uh, tears and White women tiers.

And that seems to be this like really intense through

line throughout, not intense.

It's just like this consistent through line.

It feels intense to me because like, I think about it a lot too, because

as this non-binary femme-y human.

Like I cry a lot.

I've been like crying during this episode while we're recording and thinking.

Like, where are these tears coming from?

What are they doing?

Like, what purpose do they serve?

And I think it is like, it really is connected to this like broader concept

of humanity and they feel healing.

They don't feel weaponized or like, uh, controlling or manipulative,

but rather we lost lives.

We lost human life this weekend because someone didn't like

the color of their skin.

Yeah.

We collectively, and that is so fucked up.

And so I, I grieve for the future that we won't know, like the moth man prophecy.

The butterfly

effect.

I was like, wait, the kids in the cornfield with the weird moth thing with

the bridge, that's a different thing.

Yeah.

The butterfly effect.

Yeah.

Like if one thing had been different, right?

Like if he'd gotten stuck in a traffic jam or pulled over, or, you know,

anything, anyone on the fucking livestream, where to have called in

I've been like, This shit is happening.

Yeah, it's probably very clear.

Um, at least right now, from what I've read through the times and the

AP is that it was well known that this person had problems like, uh,

social, emotional, relational problems.

I mean, he allegedly threatened to shoot up his school, like this

person wasn't running around, trying to be in good relations.

With his community, but the community for whatever happened or for whatever

reason there wasn't, uh, like, uh, a White elder or a friend or, um,

another White person in this space to collect what is happening or

maybe there was, but it was went the other way,

radicalize them even more?

Uh, fuck Jenny, that one here, sideways and hired and weird because shame culture

is not about building relationships.

I mean, to get into the, like, what about isms of that?

Like, I could only imagine some person deeply invested in White shame was

just unrelenting and wasn't there to build a relationship or an in.

I saw a picture online.

Um, and his parents sitting around a Christmas tree and I kept thinking

about the communication breakdown that all of them were experiencing,

or like, what, not only like, how did you fail him as a parent, but like,

how did we fail him as a community, as neighbors, as other White people?

And I feel like that's where I, that's part of like where

my moral injury comes from.

It's like witnessing or experiencing, failing to prevent like this.

Deeply held at the core belief that all life has value and

that Black Lives Matter.

And this human said, Nope.

Um, so Ashtin Berry this post that was sent to me by, uh, that I was like

tagged in for The Spillway Ashtin rights.

"White people do not want to hear this, but if you are not in community

with BIPOC people, you are most definitely raising a racist child.

The questions is will they be passive or actively racist?

And what level of harm will they commit?

And at what pace will their actions escalate or plateau and raising

White children in community with BIPOC people, isn't a cure all by any

means, but intimacy requires humanity.

And that is a bare minimum.

And many of you will feel fear over being identified as racist, but not concerned

about what that means for you as a human, we spend so much time discussing

what trauma does to Black people.

Frankly, I know firsthand what it does, what I continue to be

perplexed by is the lack of studies and discussion about Whiteness.

If epigenetics is the study of heritable phenotype, why is it?

We are not discussing White supremacy.

Culture's traumatic influence on White people through generations.

I'm not sure how any White person can hear about what happened in Buffalo

and not question what terrorists lie among their own communities.

Unnoticed.

I'm going to lose followers over this, and I don't care.

How many excuses need to be made for your family members to participate in

White supremacy culture at every level?

If you have people who vote for anti-abortion laws, they are

committed to White supremacy.

If they vote against gun laws, they're committed to White supremacy.

If they are pro-police, they're committed to White supremacy.

And just not sure how White people are asking Black people, if we are okay

as if this is one sided, are you okay?

Are you okay with being part of a community that keeps cresting terrorists?

It's not normal to have regular police killings and violence shootings

of citizens, and it's not normal."

And it to me, like going back to like, as this was like first heading

me, it was, oh my God, this is becoming more normalized because of

what just happened in New York city.

Just a few weeks back.

I don't know how to like, do this episode at all.

What is

your, so what's your goal with this episode?

That's a gret question.

What should our goal be?

Like if we, okay.

Yeah, let's create, let's try to create some kind of like forward moving space

for White people on this because we can't become paralyzed by this or frozen.

Uh, and so we continue to do the podcast.

We continue to do this work.

We continue on with The Spillway and having these conversations publicly, but

then like, what are we asking of White people in this moment as White people.

Like

if you're, if you are feeling any of the things that we're feeling

or you're related, you're relating to them or feel strongly about

this and don't know where to go.

That's why The Spillway is here.

Reach out email.

Uh, reach out to The Spillway on Instagram or Facebook.

We can have these conversations together as a community, and it can be a place

where we can unpack stuff and have a gentle hand to help us move forward.

If we're not sure where to go,

I'm not also licensed as an individual practitioner.

Uh, and so I can only help people like so much.

Uh, by my own professional capacity, but also like legally, I think that that to

me is where The Spillway spaces are so important because I'm only one person

and two people can be in relationship.

Three people are in community.

And so The Spillway, which is an entirely free resource is a space

for White people to get together, to talk about our White feelings.

And to talk about White action to dismantle White supremacy from the inside.

So where

do they do that then?

Like if The Spillway, is that the more, how do they, how do they access that?

Oh

Instagram like Facebook, like, I mean, we're posting every single day.

A majority of my work thus far has been people DM'ing me.

Gotcha.

And I do have individual conversations with people, but I am like no

capacity have been asked, uh, to like hold individual therapy space

for people or to be like, Hey, like, let's jump on this thing.

And like, let's unpack this, but rather.

Someone will share a post with me and be like, oh, this is really frustrating.

Or, oh, I saw this and it made me think of like The Spillway's work, or whoa,

can you believe that this is happening?

And we'll have like a back and forth and I'll hold space for them

and hold space for their feelings and their like, experience around

whatever's happening for them.

But to create like a consistent space, it has also this like

larger invitation to invite your White friends to the space too.

Um, because they think in much the same way, Jenny, like you've said, like

you've used The Spillway to talk with your partner to talk with your relative.

Um, sometimes you don't know that they need to talk too, or they

don't know that they have the access to that conversation too.

And so like having multiple people seeing the same prompt and then

sharing it, and then suddenly you're in each other's DM's, just off of the,

like the stowaway prompt for that.

Going, oh my God.

I completely disagree with us.

What are you thinking?

Or this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

I don't understand.

And then you can talk it out in your DM's together, but at least The Spillway

created a prompt for you to have that conversation with another White person.

Uh, one of the other things that I would highly recommend, um, because

our work is so communal and because our work is about relationships and it is

relational, send a friendship requests to everyone that you have unfriended

them because of their racist views, like White person to White person.

And I know that that one's really hard and that one can be really.

But we have, I think gone back into these echo chambers that feel really safe.

And we started to create safe spaces when we really wanted a healing space,

because we instinctually knew that White supremacy impacted us too, as

White people, but our privilege turned into saviorism and we just like swooped

in and said, oh no, no, no, your pain is my pain rather than, oh wow.

I have my own fucking pain too.

Yeah.

I'm having more conversations with people.

Like that's I think another immediate, like do.

What are the other things I'm thinking about is around action.

Is there an action.

Policies and laws are our value statements as a culture and yeah, well, there's

this whole conversation about gun rights and second amendment claims that will I

get can and should have its own episode.

I, I think it's safe to briefly mention policy around critical

race theory because we've already had this conversation with Dr.

Amy Hillier.

Um, like CRT is still being debated as we round out the end of the first school year

with this like newly elected school board, um, configuration across the states.

And so it's important to check in, to see how policies around race and racism in our

education systems have, if at all changed and how we can like safeguard attempts to

create colorblind, culturally irrelevant racially illiterate education for, uh,

our children and within public schools.

And sometimes like, not even within public schools, but just

like education, more broadly.

Jenny, what else are you thinking?

As a, as a organization, we need a, like you said, a strong community, but

one of the main problems is that White people don't have that sense of community

or if they do, they don't want it to be.

They want it to be aligned with people of Color directly.

Right.

And ask people of Color to make White culture,

right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And to me, um, community and culture building, uh, one of the things that I

just like learned through my education is that it it's, it takes time.

I am in the clinical sense, I am doing a community assessment

currently talking with as many White people as possible and trying to

figure out what White people need.

So it's like research.

That's all that this podcast is to me is research.

And I think that that's where we've hit a couple of snafoos and that like in

the very first episode of the show, We talk about the, "do see hear" model of

education, uh, the people need to see what's going on hear, what's happening.

And then we can like create into action.

But those first two steps are incredibly important.

And that's what we're doing right here.

We don't know what the do is yet.

And these snafoos kind of have happened as people approach the

podcast out of context, because they're completely missing.

Um, the foundational understanding that this podcast is about research.

It's about trying to figure out the seeing and the hearings that we can translate

this all into a do into an action.

I have like, period, like I've sprinkled, it you'll find like

throughout a few of the episodes.

And I'm like, we're talking about research

you?

Um, you Julia child research,

but we didn't start that way.

Um, rather than like, Hey, come along on this journey, we're trying to build

White culture and to do White culture.

Part of that does requires research.

Understand.

Um, how are you feeling about this conversation?

I feel like we've got like a lot for like a good 20 maybe 30 minute episode.

Yeah.

I think it's going to be hell to edit for you

though.

So this one I'll be up tomorrow.

I would rather, uh, stop and like acknowledge this moment and try to

like organize and also grieve and like it's, again that like duality be like

really fucking sad and frustrated.

Gutted and, uh, not stop and keep working because this is huge fucking

reminder of to why we do this work.

Here's to Aaron Salter, Ruth Whitfield, Pearly Young, Katherine

Massey, Deacon Heyward Patterson, Celestine Chaney, Roberta Drury.

Margus Morrison.

Andre MackNeil, Geraldine Talley.

We wish we knew your names and lives under different circumstances.