Welcome to Season 1, episode 4 of Breaking with Tradition, Catalyst’s podcast that explores trends and ideas that will impact the future of the global workplace. This episode is called Women Money Power.

We know that women across the globe make less money than men. The gap may vary among countries, but it is a persistent pattern caused by a variety of systemic factors including job segregation, differences in education, and a lack of pay transparency, discrimination, and bias.

Some would say, however, that the gender pay gap is because “women aren’t ambitious.” And financial journalist and author Josie Cox has a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Join host Lucy Kallin as she sits down with Josie to discuss her latest book Women Money Power: The Rise and Fall of Economic Equality. Together, they discuss the century-old workplace design that holds back working mothers, recent legislative efforts to make salaries more transparent, as well as the trailblazing women who have contributed to the seismic progress in women’s economic empowerment we have today.

How can companies and employees work collectively to close the gap and create workplaces that better support people of all genders, including men? Listen to find out!

Hosts and guest

Lucy Kallin, Executive Director, EMEA, Catalyst

LinkedIn | Bio

Josie Cox is a journalist, author, broadcaster and public speaker. She’s worked on staff for Reuters, The Independent and The Wall Street Journal. As a freelancer, she’s covered the intersection of gender and the economy for The Washington Post, The Spectator, Guardian, Business Insider, MSNBC, Forbes and other publications.

Josie has appeared on CNN, ABC, PBS, CNBC, public radio and a host of other networks. She regularly contributes to the BBC, both as a writer and broadcaster and is a founding editor of The Persistent.

Website | LinkedIn

In this episode

• 1:04 | Are women less ambitious than men? Josie and Lucy discuss the myth of the "unambitious mother."
• 6:22 | Breaking away from false perceptions. What can individuals and companies do to combat bias?
• 12:54 | Trailblazers in Women Money Power Josie talks about some of the women who changed history under the radar.
• 20:08 | Is gender equity a zero-sum game for men? We still tend to frame gender as a woman’s issue.
• 24:22 | Pay transparency regulation. Is it effective? What are some of the bright spots?
• 29:12 | The main takeaway from Women Money Power. Lucy asks Josie what she hopes readers get from her book.

Favorite moments

• 4:40 | Josie: And I think what we have to do, and it’s our duty as a society, is to recognize that when it looks like a woman might not be as ambitious as a man, we have to ask ourselves: what are the parameters, the constructs, the infrastructure that are preventing her from being able to make the choices that make her look ambitious in the way that we understand ambition?
• 5:52 | Lucy: It’s not about fixing the women... It’s about changing the infrastructure where women are working and making them more accessible and places where ambitions are allowed to grow, whatever that might look like. Because I do believe that organizations that do that will be the ones that will be around for a long time and will be successful.
• 6:49 | Josie: We need to be able to have conversations in the workplace that shed a light on the lived experiences of people who are perhaps not always given the opportunity to be the most vocal.
• 7:44 | Josie: On an operational level, what I would really like to see is organizations that have the courage to really self-reflect and say, okay, why am I doing the things I’m doing? And what is this design rooted in?
• 10:50 | Josie: And one of the most interesting things that I saw coming out of the pandemic—before corporations snapped back to the pre-COVID way of working—was this openness to hybrid working. We saw a steep rise in women’s labor force participation among women with young kids. And that was because they were finally able to do their work in the paid labor market from home, around their caregiving responsibilities they have.
• 22:49 | Josie: When we talk about gender inequality, a) we still tend to frame it as a women’s problem. In workplaces, conversations about the gender pay gap still tend to be the domain of women. On the other hand, b) we haven’t really spent enough time considering the role of men in the unpaid labor market and really advocating for changes there. I think it is our duty to address the other side of the equation.
• 28:06 | Josie: [Companies need to] spell out the effect that pay transparency can have on your organization. If you abide by not just the letter, but also the spirit of
• [transparency] laws, if you create that transparency, and therefore that trust within your workforce, you are undoubtedly likely to have a better retention rate.

Mentioned on the Pod

• U.S. Department of Labor Mothers’ employment has surpassed pre-pandemic levels, but the child care crisis persists
• Business Insider: A History of How the 40-Hour Workweek Became the Norm in America
• PBS: Katharine Dexter McCormick (1875-1967)
• The New Yorker: The Many Lives of Pauli Murray
• Amazon: Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It

Research you can use

• Women's Earnings: The Pay Gap (Quick Take)
• HR, Take Note: Employees Want Pay Transparency. Smart Companies Are Listening.
• Equal Pay Starts With Pay Transparency: Step-By-Step Guide for HR Leaders
• 5 Ways To Close The Gender Pay Gap
• Time Is Ticking for the EU Pay Transparency Directive
• Survey Finds Four in Ten Working Mothers Likely to Change Jobs Because of Childcare Issues

I'm Victoria Kuketz, Director of Supportive

Success at Catalyst in Canada.

2

Hi, and I'm Lucy Kallin.

3

I'm the Executive Director

EMEA for Catalyst.

4

And today we're at the Catalyst Awards,

5

and we're joined by our special guest,

Remington Bennett,

6

who is a content writer

and a producer for the Female Quotient.

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Yes. Did I prunce that right? Yes.

8

The Female Quotient. Correct. Yes. Yeah.

9

So we’ll just call it FQ. Yeah. Perfect.

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You can call it FQ from now on.

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And what we're here to talk about

is the multi-generational workplace

12

that we're all experiencing at the moment,

like right here,

13

but in particular, the incoming workforce,

14

generation Zed, we call it Zed, you call it Z,

but the incoming workforce

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generation and the culture impact

that they're having in the work space.

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So I'm very excited to have you join us

today.

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I'm very excited to be here.

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Yeah, because I think you do a lot of,

like, work in terms of, like,

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data around

how you bringing leadership into,

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generation Zed and the works between the

two, the dynamics of that.

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why don't you introduce yourself

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and you can tell us a little bit more

about FQ?

23

Yeah, absolutely. Hi, everyone.

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My name is Remington Bennett,

and I am a content producer and writer

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for The Female Quotient,

also known as the FQ.

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And the short way of saying it

is, we are in the business of equality,

27

which means that we work to advance

equality in all spaces and industries.

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Professional conferences, you name it.

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We're all about making sure that we close

the gender gap because it's very real

30

and making sure that all voices are heard

across, intersectionality.

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So race, gender, ethnicity, you name it.

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and we just want to create a space

where everyone feels welcomed, valued,

33

no matter what

your background is, where you're from.

34

and so my job as a content producer

and writer is to bring

35

those things to life on page, digital,

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research, whatever kind of information

we want to present to our audiences.

37

That's so great.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Actually, our last session was about

intergenerational divides in the workplace

40

and how we can really create

a culture of collaboration.

41

So what we know is that in the US

and Canada, Gen Z

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is entering the workforce in high numbers.

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I think they're amounting to

about a third of workforces.

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And so that's quickly

shifting the demographics.

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So my question for you is,

as someone who's constantly looking at

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what's relevant and different,

across generations, what workplace issues

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are you seeing, that

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this new generation cares about the most

and how does that differ across the globe?

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Well, that's a really interesting

question, because I think one thing

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that we've noticed post-pandemic

is how important flexibility is

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and how that is a core value

to a lot of the younger generations

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of future leaders and professionals

that are coming into the workforce.

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That wasn't necessarily

something that was a value or a hold

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holding the same importance to maybe

an older generation of professionals.

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And so what you're starting to see

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is this kind of clash of values

in the workplace.

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okay, newer and younger professionals

coming in saying

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we want to be able to have flexibility

in how we work, when we work.

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And especially now after the pandemic,

you saw it's possible, right?

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There's not an excuse anymore

where it's like, well,

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we don't know if you can get your work

done and we don't know if we,

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you know, we can get in touch with you

if we need something

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that has been proven false.

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You absolutely can.

You can make both work.

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And so now as we're

starting to come back to work, our T.O.

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returning to the office

is, top of mind for a lot of leaders.

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But younger generations are looking

at that and saying, well, what's happening

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to this workplace flexibility

that we were experiencing before

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during the pandemic,

is that now going to be

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desolate

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Or are

we not going to experience that anymore?

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So I think it's this conversation

of what values

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the younger generation is experiencing

versus an older

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generation of professionals,

and how we meet in the middle.

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Thank you so much.

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Absolutely.

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That is well said. That I was just thinking about

when you're saying build, because I think

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there's something about the new generation

coming in and what we used to do.

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So you were always very grateful

to get a job, first of all.

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And so when somebody said,

you need to be in a 9 to 5, you just

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you did exactly that. Yeah.

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So I'm always really interested in the new

generation coming in thinking, wow.

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And you're right,

the dynamics have changed now.

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And there's a bit more of

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we want a different world

for this new generation that's coming in.

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just a quick question.

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And I think there's a lot of work

that we've done.

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and we're doing a lot of work as well

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with that organization

about how you make that, but how you

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get the older generation and the new,

the generations out to work together

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to make it a better place.

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how do you see generation Zed?

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And I will say Zed rather than Z?

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Zed, helping to accelerate diversity

and equity in the workplace.

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That's first part of my question.

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And then I guess the second part is

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how do we ensure

that the other generation,

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I guess my generation, don't feel left out

during that process?

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Yes, I think that's key, because the whole

point of any sort of intergenerational,

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workplace working

is making sure that both are both sides,

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all sides, everyone is in agreement

with what is going on.

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We don't want anyone to feel excluded

in the evolving work space.

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So I would say that with the younger

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generation, Gen Z, in my case,

that's what we say here.

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That's what I'm saying in America.

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But Gen Z, but Gen Zed for some,

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they are,

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It's inevitable.

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Diversity and inclusion is inevitable.

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It's something that is very much a focus

when you go into social media,

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when you go to, when you're trying to,

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I guess, relate to that audience,

you're going to see different people

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of different colors

and races and ages and backgrounds.

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It's what works now.

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That's what people want to see of that age group.

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And so when you're coming into a workspace

and you're not feeling

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like you're represented, that Gen Z is

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are not going to want to work there,

because when they're operating in a space

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where they are looking for people

that think like them, look like them,

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they can relate to,

and they can absolutely feel

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like they have potential to grow because

they're people who they can relate to.

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They're not going to want to stay

in a space that doesn't offer that.

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And I think as far as in the older

generation of work folks

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wanting to actually feel like they are

heard in terms of what their values are,

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I think there needs to be

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more opportunities for mentorship

for the two to come together,

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because what tends to happen

is we have one group of professionals,

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younger generation,

kind of siloed in their own world.

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And then we have an older generation

of professionals who are often leaders,

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executives, C-suite, whatever

in siloed in their own little worlds.

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Often there's no communication between the two.

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And so what I think needs to happen

is a lot more conversation,

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a lot more intimate exchange

and mutual discussion of what

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we can do moving forward

and just respecting each person's opinion.

135

You know?

So I think that's what needs to happen

136

moving forward.

137

I love that.

138

And, actually on the panel

we were listening to earlier,

139

we actually

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talked about the formative experiences

that really shaped each generation.

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So one panelist was actually talking

142

about the moon landing

being a formative experience.

143

Another panelist

144

was talking about the pandemic

obviously being formative for Gen Z.

145

And so I'm wondering what you think about,

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you know, how can we really create that

connective tissue in terms of,

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how people are understood and have a sense

of belonging in the workplace

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and specifically,

how would you kind of zone in

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on what women really across gender?

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Yes. So I love

how in that example, the

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it was referred to major life moments

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that we use as references to what,

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you know, our major markers

in our own transformational journeys.

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But it's so unique

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because when you look and you zone in

even closer to our own personal lives,

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you'll find that we often go

through the same things in different ways.

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You know, it's like, yes,

the moon landing was crucial,

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and it's something that we,

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you know, maybe a certain generation

remembers like it was yesterday.

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And then the pandemic was something

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that, you know, Gen Z remembers,

like it was yesterday because it impacted,

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you know, their college life

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and their high school life

and how they manage the workplace now.

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But if you actually think about, you know,

what you were doing during those times

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where you going through some sort of,

relationship drama?

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Was your was your family in disarray

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where you having some sort of health

concerns?

168

Those things are universal.

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And even though it can be very uniquely

to the person,

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we all go through those types of things.

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And so when we connect with each other,

let's look for

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what's similar about your life.

That's similar about my life.

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Even though we exist in different times,

how can I relate to you in a way

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that every human can?

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It's like we both

we all have lives outside of work, right?

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We all have families.

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We all have friends, circles.

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We all have passions, right?

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Why don't we talk more about those things

that we can relate to with each other,

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versus things that feel distant

to one group versus another?

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And that goes down to women, too, right?

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Women

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At the end of the day, we are women

no matter what our backgrounds are,

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no matter where we come from,

there are very distinct things

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that we have to go through that men

don't have to go through.

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And we can, at the

end of the day, relate to,

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having, you know,

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hot flashes at work maybe,

or having some sort of,

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reproductive issues

or being not being able

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to see your kids off

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or not feel like you have enough time

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in the day

or not feeling like your voice is heard.

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All of those things are things that women

have to specifically go through,

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that men may not have the same experience

going through.

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So when we talk about those topics,

that's how we can close that gap,

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because then it starts to feel like,

I can relate to

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you regardless of your age,

and you see me for who I am.

198

So powerful.

199

Thank you.

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I think that's fantastic.

201

Yeah, you're totally right.

202

I think one of the things you said,

actually, you were saying about

203

bringing the generations together,

maybe through mentoring programs,

204

and we're here that some organizations,

for instance, will do, like what they call

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reverse mentoring.

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So if you're bringing women

back into the workplace

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and they're feeling the gap

because they've been out of the workplace

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for a long time,

they'll probably put them with some

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and they feel that the digital maybe

they don't have the digital knowledge.

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Yeah, that's what they need to get.

211

And they'll do like that

kind of reverse mentoring.

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which I love that it was interesting

when you were saying about like bringing

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the two together.

214

So yeah, that mentorship works both ways.

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It's not necessarily,

you know, old teaching.

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The young young teaches the old as well.

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That's important. Yeah.

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I have my own iPhone.

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My niece knows more about how it works

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because I think she has

a whole bunch of others.

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but I guess my question is still around.

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the the bit about the closing the gap.

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Yeah. So there's

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misconceptions that exist about Gen Z.

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See, I got that. Hey.

Oh, good. You're right.

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You can still call Gen Z

if you want to on diversity.

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Right. Three

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different ways of saying that letter.

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Yeah Gen Z right.

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But there's misconceptions if you will.

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And I think a lot of it comes from this

feeling of the older generation having to

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almost like have earned their stripes

as they're going through this. Right.

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So they've done this, I don't know,

maybe journalism, for instance,

234

they've had to go through the processes

to get to the top.

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There's a lot of work involved in it.

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So the misconceptions around, well,

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Gen Z is entitled,

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they are lazy,

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they ask for all these things,

but they haven't

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earned the right to ask for them.

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So how do we

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as together, how do we work

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to make sure that we address

those misconceptions,

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those misunderstandings,

if you will, between the two,

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how do you close the gap together?

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Yes, I love that question, and I love

how it's framed to close the gap,

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because that is an essential difference

between the two.

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Right.

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I would say that as far as the stereotypes

that exist with Gen Z being quote

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unquote lazy or not necessarily

wanting to do work or quiet quitting,

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those are all terms that were mostly

linked to the generation Z folks.

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Right?

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And, you know, some may say rightly so,

and others may say, well, why?

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Why is this an issue? Right.

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Gen Z is advocating for values

and work life balance

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that was never advocated before.

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And it was, you know, certain

things like the pandemic.

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But even before that,

that started to wake people up in terms of

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this is not healthy for me and this is not

the way that I'm doing work right

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now is not the way that I see myself

moving forward in this life,

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in terms of how I connect with people,

in terms of how I ask, how are you doing?

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Right?

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And I think one of the important things

that Gen Z is realizing

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is that when you're in the workplace

and you're grinding right, and you're

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working really hard to earn those stripes,

you miss out

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on really valuable lessons in life,

which is connecting with one another,

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asking people how they're doing,

feeling like, okay, I'm burnt out.

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This is not good.

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How does this reflect a deeper issue here?

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How can we make sure

that as we progress in our careers,

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our company is doing so as well?

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And that way we can open this space

for everyone to thrive,

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not just people who are all about

the grind, grind, grind, going right.

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So as far as the two

relating to each other,

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I think it's all about reframing

how we have these conversations

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right and leading with questions

rather than assumptions.

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So instead of saying, there's so lazy

Gen Z, they don't want to do anything,

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it's like, if you're referring

to a specific individual, ask them.

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So I noticed that there was a little bit

of a dip in performance here.

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I just want to understand

what was going on.

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How are you feeling?

What's happening in your life?

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You and some people may not feel okay

to disclose that information.

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That's their personal information

and that's okay too.

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But as a leader, it's

your responsibility as a leader to say,

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I'm here to help move this team forward

in any way

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or direction, and I need to figure out

what's going on with my team.

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First and foremost, I can't just assume

that they don't want to be here,

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because if they didn't want to be here,

then maybe they wouldn't be here, right?

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And that's trusting

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in your employees that's trusting

the people that work for you.

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So instead of just assuming

that they don't want to do anything,

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ask the question first and then lead

with empathy, lead with emotion,

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lead with vulnerability that affect

that's effective for this new generation.

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So I think to your point, it's

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about leading with curiosity

rather than yes, right. Yes.

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I think that's so important.

297

So I think one other thing

I just want to take

298

a moment to do is actually like reflect

on the space that we're in,

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because what I loved

about what you said earlier,

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about understanding that no matter what

formative experience we have,

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we're all coming to it

with sort of the same,

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excitement

and having the same kind of effects.

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So when I think about what that really

means, it comes down to feeling safe.

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Yes, feeling inspired

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and then wanting to create and be

productive and do something in the world.

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And so I actually am hoping

we can just reflect on the space

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that we're building here today

for a moment.

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So this is a space that I think

people feel included, where women

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can thrive, where people can lead

with curiosity, what do you.

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I'm just wondering,

based on your experience here,

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how have you felt the environment

to be the catalyst to design today?

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And what do you think

we need to see more of in the world

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when it comes to intergenerational dialogue,

collaboration and safety?

314

Yeah, I will go back to my original point

about diversity, which is huge,

315

and that personally, as

316

a storyteller has been something

that's been incredibly important to me,

317

because a story

or a story is the voices of many, right?

318

And if you only have one type of person

telling that story,

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then it through to the people reading

or watching or

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looking at that story, they start to feel

like their voice doesn't matter.

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And I feel like

when you're in these spaces

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and you see people

that look like you and people who you know

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may not look like you,

but may look like somebody else,

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and you see this beautiful melting

pot of faces and ideas and people

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who are just here to improve their lives

and the lives around them.

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Then that to me, is what I think will

start to create something moving forward.

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That's all about inclusion,

making sure we're fostering

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ideas from different spaces

but in the same place.

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At this, you know, at the same time.

330

So for me, I just have been

I, I've just loved being around

331

people who just feel like

they want to change how we perceive

332

what it means to have

a voice is what I would say.

333

Yeah.

334

Thank you for that.

335

Yeah.

336

There's so much to learn from from

just having that conversation.

337

And I wish you had more time to talk about

maybe we should have like a Pt. 2.

338

I think we should have a Pt. 2.

339

I think we have a Pt. 2

340

to definitely have a part 2

because there's a whole bunch of things

341

that we were talking about earlier

that we didn't cover.

342

Yeah.

343

And I guess the last one,

and thank you very much for your time.

344

My last question, because you said

it's about asking questions.

345

So I do have a question for you.

346

So the the podcast that we're doing

now is called “Breaking with Tradition”,

347

which is a nod to our founder at Catalyst,

because she was exactly that.

348

One who did not,

349

she was a non-traditionalist.

350

So my question

is showing that I've learned. Yes.

351

tell us about a moment when you broke,

352

with tradition at work.

353

Ooh, that's a good one.

354

I like that question, spicy.

355

I feel like you do it all the time

356

Breaking with Tradition,

357

yeah, okay, I know right.

358

Well, it's really interesting because

359

and this was more of a group effort,

but one that I was incredibly involved in.

360

So when you go the Female Quotient,

we are present in a lot of these,

361

male dominated conferences

or industry conferences.

362

We were talking a little bit

about this earlier,

363

which we have a part 2 about later.

364

So, you know, spaces like Davos

or some spaces

365

where it's predominantly,

run or led by men.

366

So we go to break,

you know, change the equation

367

and make sure that women have a seat

368

at the table to have these

really important discussions.

369

So our thing for a long time

has been having all female panels

370

and then maybe sprinkling in men,

of course, because equality

371

is about both men and women

coming together to change.

372

It's not just about women.

373

So however, we thought it would be

interesting recently to bring back the,

374

disgraced mantle, quote - unquote,

because the men.

375

Right.

376

And all male panel

because that has received some flak over

377

the years because especially in the last

five years where everyone is

378

saying, well, why do we care

what a bunch of men have to say, right?

379

Like they're just going to

380

do the same thing they always

do, leave us out of the conversation

381

and then make this a world where men

are really doing what they've been doing

382

and leaving us out of it.

383

But there are a bunch of men

who are conscious leaders who,

384

with empathy, really care about the people

that they work with and work for,

385

and they want to see women exceed just

in the same way women want to say yes.

386

So we brought them

those types of male leaders

387

to the table to talk about things that men

we don't really hear

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men talking about,

like reproductive rights, like,

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having, crying at work,

390

you know, because men often don't cry,

don't talk about crying at work.

391

So things like that

where we get to see inside of,

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being a man

and then how that could actually help

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us leverage our goal

to increase inequality in the workplace.

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So that was something that was breaking

a little bit of tradition, especially

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for our brand, that I think has been

incredibly successful recently.

396

And, it's been working

and it's been receiving a lot of,

397

fantastic reviews and,

and respect for the actual message.

398

I love that.

399

Yeah. That's great.

That's amazing to hear.

400

I think really centering that human equity

in the conversation.

401

Right.

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And really providing those models

and those platforms

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to people who are doing the work. Exactly.

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on behalf of all of us at Catalyst,

thank you so much for being here.

405

Thank you for the work that you're doing

and for the stories you're telling.

406

And we absolutely

would love to do a part two.

407

Yes, certainly.

408

thank you so much for hosting

this conference.

409

These are conversations that matter.

So thank you for hosting it.

410

I appreciate I thank you for bringing

our guests. Thank you.