THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF DIVORCE AND THEIR IMPLICATIONS EP 97

HOST: Beverly Price, Divorce & Empowerment Coach

GUEST: Rosemarie Ferrante, Collaborative Attorney/ Mediator for Divorce Mediation Center of Fairfield County

SUMMARY:

When contemplating divorce, our minds often leap to hiring lawyers as the default course of action. While this approach might be suitable for certain families, it's crucial to recognize that alternative, less adversarial methods exist, and they can bring more positive outcomes. In this episode of Her Empowered Divorce, Host Beverly Price invites Rosemarie Ferrante, a family attorney, Collaborative Attorney, and Mediator for the Divorce Mediation Center of Fairfield County. They discuss the different types of divorce, their implications, and how they influence the trajectories of our lives post-divorce – impacting the quality of co-parenting relationships and the financial aspects. Beverly and Rosemarie also talk about the contrast from settlement to mediation to collaborative and under which circumstances each should be used.

Divorce doesn’t have to be a death sentence. With the right support and guidance, you can move through the process with knowledge, skills, and confidence. If you’d like to schedule a complimentary private consultation, reach out to Beverly at: https://beverly-price.as.me/Consultation.

Visit https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/her-empowered-divorce/id1635143315 to access the entire archive of Her Empowered Divorce episodes, and while you’re there, please subscribe, rate, and review our show!

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

●     Do you need litigation for your family? No, you need non-adversarial divorce processes. The litigation process is an adversarial process. It is not set up necessarily to help families solve problems. It’s best suited for people who never need not to co-parent or see each other again.  

●     Mediation and collaborative divorce processes are the first processes to consider when looking for a process that will work for your family. They are voluntary, take both spouses' commitment, and are founded on the principles of good faith and full transparency.

●     Is mediation and collaborative suit for hostile individuals? Yes, but collaborative would be a better fit because both parties have an attorney in every meeting, and there is a mental health professional involved to help manage emotions.

●     No matter where you are in your divorce process, initiating conversations with your spouse is critical. Conversations can help you start the healing process and figure things out. Dragging someone through a divorce process is a recipe for disaster. If the person is not ready, healing, therapeutic separation, and counseling can help.

●     What makes collaborative different is the signed participation agreement, signed by both lawyers that say they are not going to court. If the collaborative breaks down, the attorneys will not be the litigators.

NOTABLE QUOTES:

●     There are attorneys who double in a little of everything, but just like you are seeking a specialist in medical care when it comes to legal care and legal advice, it’s imperative to use attorneys trained specifically in family law. (Rosemarie)

●     So many people think divorce is a negative, hostile, and antagonistic process, but reframing your thinking to view it as a healing process can be amazing. (Beverly)

●     The majority of family matters can be resolved with mediation or collaborative, but it takes both spouses' willingness to participate. Divorce is not easy, even in the best of circumstances. (Rosemarie)

●     There is so much emotion involved in every divorce, and the emotional prep work is so critical. It takes both spouses to recognize that not every relationship is meant to last forever, and it’s okay. If you aren’t doing marriage well, you can do the divorce well, particularly if there are children involved. What starts with love can end with respect. (Rosemarie)

●     Getting to the place where you are both ready to proceed with compassion and respect is where the hard work is, and when we do it, the legal and financial can be a lot smoother. Emotional prep work is the difference between a smooth, healthy and expensive, destructive litigious process. (Rosemarie)

●     Nobody knows your family better than you do, so just think through, in your particular instance, what support you need and feel best serves your family and find a process that will be best for your unique circumstances. (Rosemarie)

FURTHER RESOURCES/RELEVANT LINKS:

Beverly’s personal Facebook page can be found here.

Women’s Divorce and Empowerment group discussion available here.

If you prefer the video version, you can find Her Empowered Divorce YouTube channel here.

ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Rosemarie Ferrante is a family attorney who has been practicing exclusively family law for over 25 years. She focuses her practice on non-adversarial divorce through mediation and the collaborative divorce processes. Rosemarie’s goal is to make a positive impact on the divorce process by giving couples the resources and tools they need to help their family transition smoothly through the restructuring of their family.

Rosemarie founded Divorce Resource CT to provide public education and awareness, and support to those contemplating divorce. In partnership with Hollis Hardiman, CDFA, she offers education, support, and wellness workshops for individuals not only contemplating divorce but also for those going through the process, as well as those seeking post-divorce information. The workshops are presented by herself and Hollis and various esteemed mental health professionals and are offered throughout Fairfield County, CT, and online.

Rosemarie is Vice President of CCND, The Connecticut Council for Non-Adversarial Divorce, the statewide non-profit professional organization of Connecticut mediators and collaborative divorce practitioners. She is a member of the Academy of Professional Family Mediators (APFM) and the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals (IACP). She is a founding chapter leader of the National Association of Divorce Professionals (NADP), the first national organization that unites professionals who serve clients going through all stages of the divorce process. Her bar association memberships include the American Bar Association (Family Law section), the Connecticut Bar Association (CBA), including the Alternate Dispute Resolution (ADR) and Family Law sections, the Danbury Bar Association, and the Fairfield County Bar Association.

Rosemarie is a frequent guest on podcasts where she discusses the benefits of an integrative divorce process in which a team of interdisciplinary professionals best suited for the individual family guides the family through the divorce process to ensure a positive post-divorce co-parenting and financial life. She co-edited a book on divorce in Connecticut, “Divorce and Separation, Connecticut Edition,” available on Amazon.

She earned her bachelor’s degree from Cornell University in 1993 and her law degree from Brooklyn Law School in 1996, where she was the Primary Notes & Comments Editor of the Brooklyn Law Review. She was admitted to the Connecticut Bar in 1996 and the New York Bar in 1997.

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ABOUT YOUR HOST:

Beverly Price is a CDC Certified Divorce Coach ® and Women’s empowerment coach with over 25 years of experience. Her passion lies in supporting women through every aspect of separation and divorce. She offers a comprehensive coaching experience that goes beyond just empowerment work to help clients develop their communication, conflict management, boundary setting, and negotiation skills. Beverly also provides expertise on the technical, legal, and financial aspects of the divorce process.

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Hi, beautiful. I'm so glad you're here with me today. My guest is someone I've been waiting to hear for quite a while. Her name is Rosemarie Ferrante. She's a collaborative attorney, mediator, and with the Divorce Mediation Center of Fairfield County. Rosemarie is a family attorney who has been practicing exclusively family law for over 25 years. And that's something important because she focuses in as a specialist.

She focuses her practice on non-adversarial divorce through mediation and the collaborative divorce processes. Now I know a lot of you are confused about all the different kinds of divorce and that's what she's here to help us with. Her goal is to make a positive impact on the divorce process by giving couples the resources and tools they need to help their family transition smoothly through the restructuring of their family.

She's a frequent guest on podcasts where she discusses the benefits of integrative divorce process in which a team of professionals best suited for the family guides the family through the divorce process to ensure a positive post divorce co-parenting and financial life. So critical. She's going to discuss the contrast from settlement to mediation to collaborative.

and under what circumstances should each be used. Hi, Rosemarie, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's so good to have you.

Thank you, Beverly. Thanks so much for having me. It's good to see you.

I think it's so important when I'm recommending legal professionals to my clients that someone specializes in family law rather than family law is just one of 20 different things they practice because they know so much more. So I'm tickled to get your expertise today.

Thank you. And it's such a good point, because there are attorneys who dabble in a little of everything. But, you know, just like finding a specialist if you were seeking medical care, when it comes to legal care and legal advice, it's imperative you find someone who's highly trained specifically in family.

Absolutely. So let's just, we let the cat out of the bag. There are all these types of divorce. Can you describe a little bit about each method and then perhaps when each should be used?

So many people don't know this. You know, we get a lot of information just from the media, from television. And so when people think of divorce, I think that most people tend to think lawyer up. Let's see the lawyers first, right? Let's hire lawyers and let them do their job. And while that might make sense for some families, it's really important that people understand there are other options. The litigation process.

Right.

We'll start with that. The litigation process is an adversarial process. These are the situations you see in like old time movies like Kramer versus Kramer, remember that? Right? And you know, the litigation process is an adversarial process. It is not set up necessarily to help families solve problems. In my opinion, it's best suited.

Right, yeah, so nasty.

for people who never need to see each other again, personal injury situations, situations where you're not having to co-parent. That being said, it is unfortunately the only option for some families. So we'll talk about that in a moment. But what is litigation? It's when both spouses hire lawyers, the lawyers file for divorce in court, and the court process begins.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

The attorneys have to prepare for trial. They're going to do formal discovery, depositions, subpoenas. All conversation goes between the lawyers now. And so the lawyers are running the show. The court is running the timeline. So you're going to have court dates that you have to appear upon. You know, this again is your typical litigation. Now, that's not to say that your lawyers aren't going to have settlement meetings. That's not to say that you're going to have a trial.

probably 95% of those cases do resolve before trial. It's at what cost and at what collateral damage. And so, what situations, and I think at the end we'll kind of circle back to what situations are, do you need litigation? Because there are situations where it's necessary.

Yes.

what I focus on are the two non-adversarial divorce processes. And we'll talk about both of those. But the most important thing to know for both processes, which are mediation and collaborative divorce, are that it does take both spouses' commitment. It's a voluntary process. So that's really important. If you have one spouse who's just not going to participate in good faith, what are your options?

right.

Mm-hmm.

divorce and mediation are both founded on the principles of good faith and full transparency. So that's out of the gate, the first thing to consider in terms of which process is going to work for your family.

Gotcha.

So should I start with mediation or collaborative?

Whatever you want. I just had one question. I think that I've heard that in litigation Everything is public record So if you all your information will be available to anybody is that true?

Well, so different courts handle things differently, and COVID has changed a lot. So while court proceedings are public, there's many court proceedings and many jurisdictions now that are had via Zoom. And so in the old days, if the court was hearing 17 different motions in family on a particular day, anyone in the courtroom was going to hear all of your business.

Okay.

And even with respect to public record, yes, these documents are public record, but that doesn't mean they're accessible online. There's a lot of misconception about that, and it's really different jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So you would have to speak specifically to an attorney in your jurisdiction. But typically, financials are sealed. So it's not like somebody could go on the internet and find your financial affidavit.

Mm-hmm.

However, if you go to the clerk's office and ask for a family court file, it is public, which is very different than a collaborative divorce and a mediation, which all of the discussions, all of the proceedings, so to speak, are private, are not held in a courtroom. So that is an important difference.

Gotcha.

So with some of these real high profile celebrity divorces, can let's say someone from the media go and get their files and find out all the information?

You know, I mean, the short answer is yes, but the longer answer is probably not without good reason. So you'd still, you know, there's different Freedom of Information Act processes, you know, you can't just go in and get a file from the clerk without various

Gotcha.

Right.

The ceiling of a family, you know, it's a great topic for a whole nother podcast, right? Because there's a lot of nuances to what that really means.

Hahaha

Okay, gotcha. So when should somebody use mediation or collaborative?

So, you know, when you think about the range of family matters, I would say that the majority of them are matters that could be resolved with mediation or collaborative. Again, it does take both spouses' willingness to participate and to be able to have these discussions. Divorce is not easy, even in the best of circumstances.

Exactly.

The conversations you need to have with respect to your children, with respect to your finances, are not easy discussions. The basis of mediation and collaborative or self-determination is your willingness to, in good faith and with full transparency, have the discussions and ultimately make the decisions relative to your family. Because let's not forget, no one knows your family better than you.

And every family is so unique. So your sister's divorce and your neighbor's divorce is going to be very different than yours. So who can benefit from collaborative remediation? I would say the lion's share of people who are contemplating divorce. And what does it take? It takes two spouses who are willing to proceed with compassion and respect. I see it all the time. What started with love can end with respect. How do you get there?

Exactly.

There is so much emotion involved in every divorce. And so the emotional prep work is so critical, and that takes both spouses. You can recognize we weren't good at marriage and let's normalize this. Not every relationship is meant to last forever. That's okay. So we didn't do marriage well, let's do divorce well, particularly if there are children. And I think if two people can recognize that.

Mm-hmm. Ahem. Yes.

and do whatever emotional work they need to do to have the support they need from wonderful divorce coaches like yourself, from individual therapists, to get to a place where, okay, we can do this well, that's going to make the legal and financial processes a lot smoother. So that's the support, right?

Right. And I think one of the things that I frequently tell my clients, that the very, the most important conversation they can have is that very first one with their spouse telling them that they want a divorce and how they do that, because that sets the tone for the rest of the divorce. And I think that plus making sure you process your emotions

One of the things I have them do is do an assessment of their spouse and themselves and look at that so that they can see not only might there be some things that irritated them about their spouse, but there's also things that they contributed to the situation. So it's kind of a two-way street. But I think that's very helpful. Now I have a client.

You're so-

You're so right. Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

that was in mediation and her husband, I would describe as extremely hostile. He yelled at the mediator, yelled at the attorneys that were there, threw up his hands, walked out of the room twice, and now they have moved to litigation or to potential settlement. Are, are, is mediation or collaborative suited for hostile

individuals.

Yes, if they're willing to do some of this work. So, you know, the part of that emotional prep work that I was talking about isn't even just always the support. If you, to proceed with clarity as to why your relationship is there, to understand, because dragging someone through a divorce process or being dragged is a recipe for disaster. So there's two issues. One, is this person just not ready?

Gotcha.

and could things like healing or therapeutic separation or discernment counseling have helped? But the other is, is he just a hostile person? Now, you know, I guess I can't curse on this. There's people who are not great people. And then there's people who might be, you know, have pathology, right? And so where in the range are we talking about? Mediation can work.

You can.

But I would wonder if collaborative would make a better, be a better fit for that family. And here's why. So in a mediation, you're working with one mediator who even an attorney like myself cannot give independent legal advice. The role of a mediator is to facilitate conversation. If one person's not willing to listen, not willing to compromise,

Right.

wants to get rooted in their positions, where are you going with that? And so even the most highly trained mediator is going to really struggle with that situation. Now, in a collaborative divorce, both spouses have attorneys at every meeting. And so there's a bit of, particularly if that hostile person on the other side of the equation

less inclined to speak up or feels there's an imbalance of power, having the two attorneys there would be really helpful. Now, let's also add to the equation that in a collaborative divorce process, there's a mental health professional involved. And so a real collaborator with the assistance of a mental health professional who's going to help people manage their emotions, help people have conversations that don't fall back into that dysfunctional...

Mmm.

marital communication style will be really helpful to help a family like that through these discussions. And again, they're not easy discussions, but you need to find the team that's going to be best for the family. So maybe in that situation, mediation wasn't the best option.

Right.

Absolutely. I just got certified in pre-mediation coaching and one of the things that was discussed was this concept of shuttle mediation where instead of the two people being together, they're in separate rooms going back and forth. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure it is a tool that mediators should have to use if and when needed. And in the situation you're describing that would certainly be helpful. And you know in this in this world of Zoom that we have we can do shuttle mediation or caucuses with breakout rooms. The other option is in a situation like that again the mediator has to, you know, it's interesting because as a mediator very often people are in their best behavior.

Mm-hmm.

And so in this instance, he's not. So he's showing his true colors. However, you know, very often the help of review counsel is really helpful because they may have insights that the mediator doesn't have. And so another potential option to shuttle mediation in the situation you're describing is to have the spouses with their review counsel.

I

either in breakout rooms or available during these meetings. So there's a number of different ways to handle bumps in the road that are inevitably going to happen. So just because you choose mediation and maybe it's not working or just because you choose litigation and you're six months in and you haven't been to court once and you spend $20,000 already, you can still explore these other options.

Okay.

Exactly.

And it's really important to find the team that's going to work best for your situation. And so again, you know your family best. What do you think? You know, let's think about this in three pieces, financial, legal, and emotional. What are the support people in each of those disciplines that are going to help your family the most? If there's high conflict parenting issues, can a co-parenting...

counselor help. If there are highly complex financials, would the certified divorced financial analyst help? And so it's imperative for people not to only understand your options for mediation, collaborative, and litigation, but also to understand who are all these professionals. You can get overwhelmed. It's a, and there's a lot of information out there. So you want to kind of break it down into these little pieces to really understand.

Yes.

How is my family going to restructure in a way that ultimately ends up with an agreement that's your blueprint for your post-divorce life that's going to serve everybody, especially the kids?

Are there legal professionals that say they practice collaborative, but haven't, let's say, gotten specific training or aren't in the official association of collaborative professionals? And what's the implication of that?

Yeah.

So that's such a good question. Because when I had described litigation before and I had said, you know, none of the court processes prevents attorneys from having settlement meetings. You're going to hear a lot of litigators say, I practice collaboratively. That's what I do. I always have settlement meetings. None of my cases go to trial. Make no mistake, that's still litigation. What makes a collaborative different is the signed participation agreement signed by both lawyers.

that says we're not going to court, and that if this collaborative breaks down, the attorneys cannot be the litigators. Because not only do the spouses need to be married, for lack of a better word, to this process, so do the lawyers. And some lawyers practice what they call little c, like little c collaborative. We don't sign that agreement. Well, be aware. What does that really mean?

They want to be in it if it goes to litigation because this is a business and that's where you will. So, so when you're looking for a collaboratively trained attorney, make sure they have collaborative training. It's going to be in their bios. It's going to be very clear. Make sure that they sign that participation agreement. You had mentioned organizations. The International Association of Collaborative

Exactly.

Yeah.

professionals is a great way to check is your attorney trained in collaborative. Similarly with mediation, are they a part of the more statewide organization in Connecticut at CCND, the Connecticut Council for Non-Adversarial Divorce? Every state has organizations. There's the American, I'm sorry, the Academy of Professional Family Mediators, which is a national organization for mediators. So you can check.

you know, you can do some background and really, or ask them directly, are you trained in mediation? Are you trained, do you have advanced training? What's your background? So like you said, when we started the conversation, you wanna one, make sure your divorce attorney, your family attorney practices solely or the majority of their practice at least is in family.

But then also, you know, if you're looking for a mediator, what's their training? If you're looking for a litigator, what is, are they litigating in your jurisdiction? If you're looking for a mediator, again, what is their training? And websites speak volumes.

Yes, that is true. So how would somebody pick the professional and pick the process?

So the first thing is to really understand the three processes. And so, you know, we kind of describe litigation, we discuss the team in a collaborative, and in mediation, again, you're working with one unbiased facilitator of communication. So first is really understanding those processes.

couples together about their options because I want to make sure my clients are a good fit for the process. I want them to understand their options and they need to hear, well, I don't know, you know, mediation sounds right, but is there a reason I should be thinking of collaborative? What are the different, you know, red flags or the different things I should be thinking about? So that's the first step is finding somebody and maybe that means meeting with a litigator.

Yes.

meeting with a collaboratively trained attorney and meeting with a mediator in your jurisdiction to understand what those really look like. And then one of the things you said that really is so important is that initial conversation with your spouse. How do we want to do this? The timing of that is critical. By the time you have that conversation, there's a lot of stuff that's happened in your marriage. And so I find that first phone call is like, now we can start.

Mm-hmm.

the healing process. Now we can start, right? Now we can start figuring out how we're going to do this. And so the meeting of the minds between you and your spouse is so important.

Exactly.

And I love what you said about starting the healing process, because I think so many people think divorce is a negative, is a hostile, is an antagonistic process. But reframing your thinking to this is a healing process can be so amazing.

And I see it all the time. It's not easy. Again, like, you know, getting to the place where you're both ready to proceed with compassion and respect. That's where the hard work is. That whole, the whole mindset of this isn't what I thought it was going to be. It's not what I thought it would be for my children. You know, getting to that place of, okay, it's okay. And we're going to do this. We're going to do this. Well, that's the hard part.

If you do all of that, the legal and financial can be a lot smoother. This is the kind of process that again, that I have nothing else to call it other than emotional prep work is the difference between a smooth, efficient, healthy process and a litigious, expensive, destructive process.

Absolutely, because you know if you think about it that destructive not only harms both the parties But what it does to the children is terrible

And that's really what people have to remember. I rarely see people, if ever, I can't say I've ever seen people who said, I don't care about my kids. Nobody says that. If we can just keep kids at the forefront, this is a moment in time where you can, you know, there's enough stuff in this world that's going to hurt our kids. This is one place where you have the power to say, I'm not going to be a,

to hurting my kids. I'm going to help them go through this process, you know, look at it as this isn't negative. Clip that whole script of broken families. Let's normalize this. Again, not every relationship's forever, but family is. We're restructuring our family. It might look different, but it doesn't have to be negative.

Right.

We've touched a little bit on this, but which of the alternatives are best for a hostile divorce?

So, you know, again, I do, hostile can mean many different things. I, if we're talking about pathology and we're talking about narcissism, we're talking about coercive control, it will be very difficult to get somebody on board with a mediation. It may be difficult to get them on board.

and a collaborative divorce. And so very, very unfortunately, there is a subset of situations where someone may have no option other than to litigate. And litigating with somebody with pathology is not easy. It is not straightforward. There's a lot of potential litigation abuse.

right.

And so in a situation like that, you really need a litigator who understands what you're dealing with because courts are not built to help with pathology and that's the missing piece. And so if at least your lawyer really understands it, then that's maybe the best you can do. That being said, I've seen many situations where collaborative works in those situations because again, let's bring in that mental health

We have two lawyers here, so no one feels that there's an uneven playing field. You know, the financial piece of having a neutral financial on that team would probably be helpful as well. And so with all of those checks and balances, again, depending on the level of hostility and what that actually means, I do think there's a big space for collaborative divorce processes to be very helpful.

What about domestic violence?

Yeah, so you know, when we're talking about somebody's safety, whether it's the safety of a mom, children, of course, any abuse towards a mom is abuse towards children. Again, it may, it may have to be a litigation. The only thing that I always recommend to people is to make sure that your litigator understands exactly what they're dealing with. Because as we know,

instigating or initiating a divorce action can be a catalyst for additional abuse. And so working with women's centers in your jurisdiction, working with advocates who are going to ensure safety plans are in place is so it's just critical.

Yes, I saw a statistic that said 70% of women that leave their abusers are murdered. And that's just tragic.

Yeah.

It's tragic. It's tragic. And there's, you know, the family court system is just a system. And again, it's try as it might. It's not, you know, we're expanding laws, thankfully, we're including coercive control into some of our restraining orders and abilities to get restraining orders, and you don't have to prove physical abuse. I think a lot of there's been a lot of

but so much more needs to be done because it's a trap.

Absolutely.

Rosemary, thank you so much. This has been so enlightening and I know it's helped the listeners so much. How can my listeners find you?

Sure. So my website is divorcemediationct.com. My website has all of my contact information, my phone number, there's an email form, it links to my Facebook, to my Instagram, to my LinkedIn. So website's probably the best first stop.

and you're in Connecticut, correct?

I'm in Connecticut, yes.

Do you have anything else you want to touch on that I forgot?

No, I don't think so. I mean, I would just say to all of your listeners, again, nobody knows your family better than you. And so, you know, you just think through in your particular instance what support you need, what support you feel will best serve your family and find the process that's going to be best for your unique circumstances.

Wonderful. Rosemarie, thank you so much for being with me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And to the audience, all of Rosemarie's information will be available in the show notes along with mine. And you can find them at herempoweredivorce.com on the podcast page or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you prefer the video version, you can go to our YouTube channel called Her Empower Divorce.

Thank you for being with Rosemarie and myself on this episode of Her Empowered Divorce. Join me on our next episode where we'll be diving deeper into what other expert professionals can say to help you on your journey. Please listen, subscribe, and leave us a review on any opportunity or any channel. And please share our story with your friends so we can reach out and help as many women as possible. Thank you for joining us today and stay empowered.

Take care.