Join me as I tackle a question that I feel we should be asking more often: Is the Catholic Certificate in Religious Education discriminatory? Following on from Peter Maguire's excellent article on the subject, I dive into all sides of the debate, chatting about the contents of the certificate, the challenges it poses for non-Catholics, and the arguments for and against its requirement. Strap in for an honest, no-holds-barred conversation (with an alien) that'll hopefully make you rethink the education system and what I would do if I Were the Minister for Education.

Show notes, as always, on https://simonmlewis.medium.com

Hello, you're welcome to If I Were the Minister for Education from Anseo.

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net

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Is it discrimination to ask

for the Catholic Certificate

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in Religious Education?

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Peter Maguire wrote an article

in the Irish Times on the 31st of

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October this year, 2023, titled Only

Catholics Need Apply, where he asked

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if the requirement of a certificate

in Catholic Religious Education was

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stopping people from becoming teachers.

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Despite interviewing a number of

people affected, including myself, none

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of us could come up with an answer.

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How can you possibly discriminate

against someone who doesn't

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fill in the application form?

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In this episode, I'll be exploring

whether it is discrimination to ask

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for a Catholic certificate in religious

education if you want to work in a

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primary school, and what I would do

If I were the Minister for Education.

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Hello, hello.

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You're welcome to If I were the

Minister for Education from Anseo.

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net, a regular podcast where I take an

aspect of the Irish primary education

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system and I tell you what I might do

if I were the Minister for Education.

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This is Simon Lewis.

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You're very welcome to this episode

where I'm talking about the Catholic

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Certificate in Religious Education,

something that if you went to an

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Irish teacher training college,

you're probably very familiar with.

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Although it is an optional certificate to

do, it is the key to working in over 90

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percent of primary schools in the country,

because if you are applying for a job,

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it was something that will be looked for.

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However, Is it

discriminatory to ask for it?

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I guess if you work in a catholic school

some might argue that it's important

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for you to be able to be qualified to

teach the religious education program

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and some people might say it is

discriminatory because over 90 percent

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of schools are of a catholic ethos

so therefore it's put in as a barrier

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to stop people from working in it.

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But You probably wouldn't be surprised

to hear what I would think on it, so

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rather than listening to me, I decided

I'd ask a fairly neutral source of

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information about whether a religious

certificate in a particular faith is

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discriminatory, because of course,

for those of you who are listening

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you might be shouting at me already

saying, it's not just the Catholics.

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Why are you always going

on about the Catholics?

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Yes you're absolutely correct.

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If you work in a Church of Ireland

school or you want to work in a Church of

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Ireland school, I'm not sure if there's

a certificate in it now, to be honest

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with you, but you are there is a kind

of a question about upholding the ethos

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and making sure that you're ready to be

a teacher in a Church of Ireland school.

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And I would imagine it's

similar in a Muslim school.

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But then again, I don't know and

certainly in a Jewish school, I can,

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I don't know again either if there's

a certificate of, I doubt it because

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I don't think there are any Jewish

teachers at the moment in the system.

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So it would be very difficult

to figure that one out.

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But I imagine there's some

sort of training or some sort

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of meeting or something like

that or some sort of course.

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And then if you're still shouting

at me saying, Well, what about you,

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Educate Together Schools and all these

other community national schools?

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You have things.

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Right now at the moment, yes, there

is a summer course that people can

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do or for to become, or they can do

a qualification in college to learn

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about the ethical education program

that Educate Together Schools run.

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But at the moment, that is

not a requirement to teach in

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an Educate Together school.

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I'm not quite sure what the

community national schools are doing.

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Personally, I am against the idea of

compulsory certificates in ethos, because

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essentially what I see or what I feel

is it's exclusionary on the basis.

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Of religion or ethos, I think if

you want to work in a particular

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school, that shouldn't be the barrier.

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If you're a qualified teacher, you should

be able to teach in any primary school.

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But I mean, I suppose we're,

we're, we're going a little

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bit off topic for the moment.

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Although we probably aren't

going off topic for the moment.

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In fact, the weird thing about this

Religious Certificate in Education or,

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or it's, or it's equivalents is that

it is being used to, in some ways I

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would argue, is being used to prevent

people from teaching in these schools.

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And in a bigger picture, is preventing

people from going into teaching at all.

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Because if you know that you

have a nine out of ten chance of

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teaching in a Catholic school.

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Therefore, it would seem sensible to do

the certificate in religious education

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in Catholic, in the Catholic education

because you've 90 percent of a chance

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of working in one of those schools.

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And but what if you aren't Catholic.

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And you have to do this certificate

because, you know, the content of

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that certificate could be well, it

could go against your conscience.

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It certainly would go against mine

my freedom of conscience, my freedom

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of religion and all the rest of it.

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So absolutely it is a problem.

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As I said, let's get a

neutral voice in this.

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So rather than me telling you.

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And it's insisting that this

religious certificate in a

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particular faith is discriminatory.

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I said I'd ask a non biased source.

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And short of finding an alien,

because that who maybe just landed on

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Earth, I found the next best thing.

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And you might not be surprised

here, given how much I'm going

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on about artificial intelligence.

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It's ChatGPT.

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And before I put any ideas Into its head.

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And because you can do that with chat

GPT, you can train it to be a certain way.

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You can say Hello chat,

GPT, or whatever it is.

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You are a, you know, helpful

assistant that has this particular

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thoughts on a particular thing.

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I just thought it might be a good idea

to, the first question to ask chat, GPT,

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who is a neutral observer in the world?

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What is the certificate?

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What does it consist of?

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And.

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This is what it offered.

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The Certificate in Catholic Religious

Education, CCRE, it has an acronym,

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is a qualification that many

teachers in Ireland acquire if they

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want to teach in Catholic primary

schools, which form a significant

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portion of the schools in Ireland.

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Here's a summary of

what's typically involved.

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So straight away, CHAT GPT knows

that if you want to work in an

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Irish primary school, you need it.

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And they also make the point

that it forms a significant

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portion of schools in Ireland.

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Interesting.

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So here's actually what it is.

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For those of you who don't know,

who haven't done the certificate,

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because I think a lot of people

listening to saying, ah, it's only

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a little certificate or whatever.

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Who cares?

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You know, it's only a small thing,

but this is what it contains.

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Number one.

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Theoretical foundations.

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So this delves into the core tenets

of Catholic theology, scripture,

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liturgy, and church history.

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It provides educators with a foundational

understanding of the Catholic faith.

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So, That's pretty straightforward.

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I don't think there's any problems

with theology as long as it's not

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indoctrinating, let's say, and forcing

you to become a member of that faith.

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So, number two is pedagogy

of religious education.

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So this component equips teachers with

effective methods to communicate and

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impart the Catholic faith to young

students, adapting to their cognitive

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and emotional development levels.

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Now that's where I've

had my first problem.

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It equips teachers with

effective methods to communicate.

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impart the Catholic faith.

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So the job of the teacher is

to impart the Catholic faith.

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Some people say they're just

inviting the children in.

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Some people will argue, Oh,

no, no, there should, there

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are only a few little prayers.

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Everyone's just being nice.

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No, no.

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The job of a teacher is to impart

the Catholic faith to young students.

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So there's an issue there and

to do that certificate, that's

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what you're being trained to do.

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Number three, spiritual

and personal development.

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Here, participants often engage in

retreats, spiritual readings, and

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other activities that deepen their

personal relationship with God and

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understanding of the Catholic faith.

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So again, we're getting into

not just education, we're

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getting into faith formation.

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We're getting into the, I know people

don't like the word indoctrination,

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but it is exactly what it is.

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So in fact, like the teachers who

were taking on this course are being

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encouraged to deepen their Catholic faith.

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They're not not just their own faith,

or if they have one, but they're

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actually encouraged for their own

spiritual and personal development,

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which is Absolutely outrageous to me,

but, you know, again, it's just there.

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That's what it says.

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Number four, school and parish link.

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This emphasizes the close

relationship between the Catholic

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school and the local parish.

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Teachers are trained to foster this

link and to ensure that their teaching

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is in line with the practices and

beliefs of the local parish community.

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So again, what we're doing here,

we're saying, Seeing that there

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is a close relationship between

the school and the church.

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Now again, this is something that

people deny and they say, Oh no, there's

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no link here and barely ever see the

priest and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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But the thing is, when you are doing

this course, you are taught that

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this is what's supposed to happen.

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You know, so an interesting kind of thing.

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Number five, practical experience.

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Participants usually have to teach or

assist in religious classes, often under

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the guidance of supervision of a mentor.

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This gives them hands on experience of

teaching in Catholic religious education,

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which obviously makes sense if you are

going to be teaching Catholic education.

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And then six assessment, depending

on the program, there may be written

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examinations, coursework, practical

assessments, or a combination of

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these to evaluate the participants

understanding and capabilities.

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It's important to understand that

this certificate emphasizes the

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Catholic ethos, this is still Jack

GBT, and its integration into the

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broader curriculum and school culture.

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In Ireland, since the vast majority

of primary schools have historically

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been under Catholic patronage, the

CCRE has been seen as an essential

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qualification for many teaching roles.

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Now, I don't think anyone would

argue with any of the above.

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That's just ChatGPT saying what it is.

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I decided to ask something I'm

interested in, and that's whether

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one is required to study Catholic

scriptures as part of the course.

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Because I can't find

it on the actual site.

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You know, it's very interesting, I think,

on the actual websites of these things.

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They don't really tell

you very, very much.

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It's as if, I don't know if they're,

they're not, clearly they're not

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embarrassed or anything like that,

but it's like they don't want to.

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overtly say what they're doing.

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But you can see really from those first,

those six points, you know, how there

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is faith formation happening in these

in this, in this course, not just for

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training you to be faith formers or to be

missionaries or whatever the word is, but

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they're trying, and part of the course

is to make you look at your own Catholic

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faith, even if you don't have one.

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And that's kind of, That's kind of,

I find that outrageous, I really do.

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But I wanted to find out, because this

didn't go a bit deeper enough, but I

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just wanted to find out, do you actually

have to study Catholic scriptures?

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As part of this and the answer was yes,

the study of scriptures is typically

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a key component of the Certificate

in Catholic Religious Education.

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Understanding the Bible, both the Old

and New Testaments, is foundational

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to Catholic Religious Education.

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And it goes into that, and to be

honest with you, I'm not going to

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read the whole thing but it but it

goes in about how important it is.

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to explore key events in the Old Testament

and the New Testament, how to interpret

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that that aligns with Catholic teaching.

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So it ensures that they relay biblical

stories and teachings to their students

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who have to faith form here again and

do it in a manner that's consistent

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with the church's understanding.

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Again, all this is on the show notes.

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So you can have a look at these yourself.

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I'm just really.

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It's long, so I don't want

to get, get far too in it.

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And then the key thing for me is the

integration to the curriculum, because

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a lot of people basically say, Ah, sure,

look, you know, they cannot doubt you.

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The kids cannot doubt.

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But the thing is.

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This is the, this is the nonsense, and

I don't know how I don't, I don't know

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how it survived so long, because it's,

it's, it's all there in black and white.

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And it's in, in the rules of, of, of

primary schools, Rule 68, I, I, I, is

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still alive and well in Catholic schools.

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It says, scriptures are not

just taught as standalone

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lessons, but they're integrated.

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into the broader curriculum.

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This means participants learn to

weave their spiritual teachings

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and values into other subjects

in everyday classroom activities.

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And given the centrality of the Bible

to Catholic faith and teachings, it's

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essential for teachers in Catholic schools

to have a robust understanding of it.

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This enables them to pass on

the faith to their students.

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I don't know, folks.

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All these people who say, Oh no, it's only

a few, a few bits and bobs, it's nothing.

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It's there, and I'm, I'm asking

a non biased source here.

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ChatGPT isn't anti religion at

all, in any way, shape, or form.

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It just tells you the information

as it is, from from from basically

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sources all over the web.

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And it's not actually criticising

it, it's just saying what it is.

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So, despite, so far, I haven't

asked a single loaded question.

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ChatGPT has confirmed that the purpose

of the certificate is to enable teachers

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to pass on the faith to their students

And some will say that one doesn't

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have to believe in it to pass it on.

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That's something I've heard actually,

you know I've just thought of that there.

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But it just doesn't make sense If you

have to pass something on to somebody

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you kind of have to agree with it in some

capacity For example, if I'm teaching

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maths and I'm teaching 2 plus 2 is 4 I

just pass on that information as a fact.

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I tell the children unequivocally that

2 plus 2 is equal to 4, and if I didn't

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believe that 2 plus 2 was equal to 4, I

would teach the children that many people

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believe that 2 plus 2 is equal to 4.

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If I was a teacher in a Catholic school

and I said that many people believe

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that Jesus Christ wasn't the greatest

guy in history and their opinion

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was equally valid, I would be fired

under section 37 of the Employment

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Equality Act for undermining the ethos.

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What I have to do as a teacher.

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in a Catholic school is I have to

believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah

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and is the greatest guy in history.

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And as much as I believe

that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

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To be honest, After doing that, I

could end the podcast here, and say

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there's no need to go on, because,

essentially, it's there, black and white.

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The purpose of this Catholic certificate

in education is to make sure that

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a teacher is able to pass on the

Catholic faith to their students.

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But, we're knee deep now, so

we may as well dive in further.

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So, ChatGPT, what issues would an atheist,

or a Jew, have with doing this course?

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That was the next question.

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And ChatGPT didn't hesitate.

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The Certificate in Catholic Religious

Education, CCRE, is inherently

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rooted in the teachings and

traditions of the Catholic Church.

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For individuals who come from other

religious backgrounds or hold secular

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beliefs, there could be several

issues or challenges they might

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face while pursuing this course.

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Number one, and a Divided actually

nicely into atheist Jews and Muslims.

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So doctrinal differences.

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So the atheists.

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Atheists don't believe in

the existence of deities.

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Engaging with a curriculum that

not only affirms the existence of

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God, but also centers around their

specific religious doctrines and

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beliefs could be fundamentally at

odds with their personal views.

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A Jew?

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While Jews and Catholics share the Old

Testament scriptures, they have divergent

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interpretations and beliefs about them.

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The New Testament, which is fundamental

to Catholicism, is not recognized.

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in Judaism.

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And in Islam, Muslims believe in the

Abrahamic traditions, recognizing

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figures like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

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However, they have significant

theological differences with Catholicism,

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particularly concerning the nature of

Jesus and the concept of the Trinity.

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So you can see very quickly that that's

three examples of beliefs that are,

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that counter what Catholicism do.

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It's not a harmless entity.

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Just because 99 percent or 95 percent

of teachers, primary school teachers in

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Ireland don't find Catholicism you know,

in any way offensive, it doesn't mean that

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other faiths and none don't find these.

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difficult to manage.

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Even if you are someone who's maybe a

lapse Catholic a lot of it isn't alien

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to you so you maybe not take it seriously

but you don't generally don't find it

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offensive or you sort of in some ways

and I remember I did this myself when

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I started teaching I was in a Catholic

school you kind of take on the role

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of the actor and you see the stuff as

kind of stories and harmless and all

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the rest of it but you kind of have to

think of people who aren't You know,

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sort of, the a la carte, or, you know,

about religion, or anything like that.

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They take bits and pieces.

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They actually believe in their faith,

or they believe in the, or they

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actually have personal difficulties

with with a particular faith as well.

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So, there are problems, and you can

see that already from point number one.

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Point number two from ChatGPT,

they said pedagogical challenges.

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Teaching from a Catholic perspective

might feel inauthentic, and that's a very

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kind word I would say, or challenging

for someone who doesn't personally

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believe in or align with his teaching.

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So, I mean, I have personal

experience of that.

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I found it really challenging

teaching in a Catholic school.

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I was, I mean, I was really good

at it because I, and I've told this

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story before, that I was so good

at it in my first year, I was given

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a sacrament class in my second

year and I found it really hard.

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I found it really, really

hard to be that inauthentic.

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And I didn't, I didn't know

a lot of what I was doing.

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I, I got some help I suppose

from my partner teacher.

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I was lucky to have that.

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But I had no idea.

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I found it really, really difficult.

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And I found it.

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I just, I did find it a little bit

offensive, to be honest with you.

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But, look that's fair enough with ChatGPT.

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Number three, a spiritual

and personal development.

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A significant aspect of the CCRE

is a personal spiritual growth

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within the Catholic tradition,

and this could be uncomfortable or

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irrelevant by those from different

religious or secular backgrounds.

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This is the thing.

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You have to have personal

spiritual growth in Catholicism

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if you're doing the certificate.

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That must be really difficult.

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I mean, for people, again, who are

laissez faire about religion, you can

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kind of pretend and you laugh along with

the rest of the a la carte Catholics.

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But for someone, like, can you imagine?

335

You know, and most people will

think of a Muslim because there

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are some Muslim teachers coming

into the Irish primary system.

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And if they're doing, I mean, I imagine.

338

If any of them do the Catholic

certificate, and let's say they're

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practicing Muslims, you know, I'm not

saying all Muslims are more devout than

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Catholics or anything like that, but

let's say it's more likely that, you know,

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first, second and third generation Muslims

are probably more devout than, let's

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say, you know, twenty fifth generation

Catholics or something like that, it's

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you It must be really uncomfortable.

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I, I would find it very uncomfortable.

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In fact, I'm glad I, I know I

didn't do this certificate, but

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I think if I had have, I may

have had to drop out of college.

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I would have found it

really, really difficult.

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I don't know.

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Hindsight, I suppose, is, is

20, 20 vision is 20 years ago.

350

I, you know.

351

When that opportunity came along.

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Anyway, number five.

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Moral and ethical stances.

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The Catholic Church has specific

positions on moral and ethical issues, e.

355

g.

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abortion, LGBTQ plus

rights, contraception.

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Those from different backgrounds

might disagree with some of

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these positions based on their

personal and cultural beliefs.

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That's.

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Pretty much fair enough.

361

I would you know, I think

not much more to say on that.

362

Number six, they've said, they have

a few points on this one, experience

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of exclusion or misunderstanding.

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Participants from non Catholic backgrounds

might occasionally feel left out or

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misunderstood, especially if the course

assumes a shared Catholic background

366

among attendees, which it does.

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And that's the thing.

368

It does assume that everybody there.

369

Wants to be there, is Catholic, or

understands Catholicism, and I like the

370

word there Misunderstood, because I think

that's something that I experience when

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I'm talking about this all the time.

372

People say to me They don't understand

why I go on about this all the time.

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Like it doesn't affect you.

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Why are you going on about this?

375

You know, it's not that bad.

376

We're very inclusive in our school.

377

They don't understand

and that's fair enough.

378

Why would you understand if everybody

else around you thinks everything's okay?

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So I thought that was

an interesting point.

380

And then number seven,

personal reconciliation.

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Engaging deeply with Catholic teachings

might bring up personal challenges

382

for some as they reconcile their

course content with their own beliefs.

383

This could be an introspective

journey leading to a deepened

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understanding of one's own beliefs

or in some cases internal conflict.

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I'm not sure I I don't know, that's

a, I think that's a push, but look,

386

that's a, I'm sure that may be a

case for some people, maybe not me.

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These are all individual issues

for individual people, but

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many of them will resonate.

389

I'm sure maybe some of those

resonated with you if you did the

390

Catholic Certificate in Education.

391

And I may say this again, but I spoke

to somebody who was involved in one of

392

the college, teacher training colleges

where the certificate is offered and in

393

the 10 years that they had been there

they said that only four people in 10

394

years had refused to do that certificate,

which says a couple of things.

395

Number one might say that we have a

problem with diversity if people aren't

396

refusing to do it and it doesn't seem to

be a big problem for people or number two,

397

that people are, Somehow, pragmatically

doing it and just getting through it.

398

I'm pretty sure the former, rather

than the latter, is more true.

399

Anyway, I guess the final question

was simply to bite the bullet and ask

400

whether the practice of insisting on

that certificate was discriminatory.

401

ChatGPT does everything it

can to be balanced, and, to be

402

fair, it did give both sides.

403

So, I'm going to read what ChatGPT said.

404

It's, it's, it's long enough.

405

Question of whether insisting on

having the Catholic certificate in

406

religious education for teaching

positions is discriminatory.

407

So this is whether it's

discriminatory or not.

408

It's nuanced, they said.

409

And here is a balanced analysis.

410

They're even telling you

they're being balanced.

411

Arguments suggesting it is discriminatory.

412

One.

413

It's a barrier to employment.

414

If the majority of schools in a region, e.

415

g.

416

Ireland, require their certificate for

teaching positions, then individuals

417

who don't have it, especially those

who aren't Catholic, who don't want to

418

undergo Catholic religious education, may

face significant barriers to employment.

419

I mean, that's a bit of a, you could say,

duh, at the end of that, but it's true.

420

This is it.

421

If you don't do that certificate,

you are automatically not

422

going to be able to work.

423

in 90 percent of schools.

424

2.

425

Potential bias against non Catholics.

426

By insisting on the CCRE, schools might

be implicitly, or explicitly, favouring

427

Catholic applicants over others, limiting

the opportunities for non Catholics or

428

those who don't have their certificate.

429

Which, again, is fair enough.

430

3.

431

Lack of religious neutrality.

432

Insisting on a certificate that aligns

with the teachings of one specific

433

religion in public or state funded

schools may be seen as a lack of

434

religious neutrality, potentially

leading to feelings of exclusion

435

among those of other faiths or none.

436

Now, the one thing I disagree with

in this sentence is the may be seen

437

as a lack of religious neutrality.

438

It is a lack of religious neutrality.

439

Four, homogeneity.

440

If all teachers are required to have

a CCRC, it might lead to a homogenous

441

teaching environment in terms of religious

beliefs, which could limit diverse

442

perspectives into an educational setting.

443

And I think we just need to

look at our staff rooms to

444

see that is entirely the case.

445

And in fact, we just need to

446

NUIG, where it seems that 99.

447

7 percent of teachers in

Ireland identify as white.

448

Irish, 95 percent identify as

Catholic, and I think it was 4 or

449

so percent identified as Church of

Ireland or some sort of Christian.

450

So, yes, homogeneity is a problem.

451

So then they move on to how

it isn't discriminatory.

452

So one, it's a specialized role.

453

The primary purpose of the CCRE is

to equip teachers to effectively

454

teach Catholic religious education.

455

If a school's curriculum includes

Catholic teachings, it's reasonable

456

for them to want teachers who are

trained in that specific area.

457

And you couldn't argue with

that because that is true.

458

But these are not

private Catholic schools.

459

These are state schools.

460

I know there's a sort of private

public partnership kind of involved,

461

but when 90 percent of your schools

are this are insist on this.

462

I, I think you have a problem there.

463

Anyway, I shouldn't be interjecting here.

464

I wasn't as interjectory in

the, in the previous section.

465

Number two, freedom of

religious institutions.

466

Religious schools argue they

should have the freedom to uphold

467

and pass on their traditions.

468

If a school's mission is to provide

a Catholic education, requiring

469

teachers to be familiar with

Catholic teachings might be seen as

470

essential to fulfilling that mission.

471

Three.

472

Voluntary participation.

473

Schools that insist on the CCRE

typically have a Catholic ethos.

474

Teachers who apply to these institutions

are generally aware of this requirement.

475

If they choose to apply, they're

opting into an environment

476

with known expectations.

477

Now that is fair.

478

It feels unfair because 90

percent of schools are Catholic.

479

So you kinda, you're sorta saying,

Well, if you wanna work in an Irish

480

primary school, you gotta go with them.

481

You, you, you know what

you're getting yourself in.

482

So why become a teacher?

483

You know, why if you, if

you already know this.

484

So it's essentially what you're

kind of saying there is if

485

you wanna become a teacher in

Ireland, you need to be Catholic.

486

You know?

487

Which, which in some ways is the way I,

I suppose it's essentially how you, how

488

you kind of have to square that off.

489

Yes.

490

You might know, but you know, do you have

to be Catholic to be a primary school

491

teacher anywhere else in the world?

492

I, I don't think that's the case.

493

So I think.

494

It's, it's a, it's a, it's an argument

which I suppose would answer my question.

495

Actually, I would, I'd flip that

and say actually it's not voluntary

496

really in Ireland particularly.

497

Although it technically is.

498

But if you want to work in

Ireland you probably do need it.

499

Now you, someone might say to

me, shout at me now and say

500

but you don't have it Simon.

501

And you're absolutely right, I didn't

do it, but it wasn't a requirement

502

when I qualified, it's only become

a requirement since I qualified so,

503

and that's an interesting thing as

well, that it's become compulsory

504

quite, quite recently, so, that's

interesting as a point, and then

505

number four Alternative opportunities.

506

While many Catholic schools

might require the CCRE, there

507

are also schools that don't.

508

In places with a diversified educational

system, teachers have other options

509

where the CCRE is not a prerequisite.

510

I would argue that those diverse

educational places exist not in Ireland.

511

Anyway, it goes on to say, on balance.

512

The insistence on the CCRC could be

viewed as discriminatory, especially

513

in areas where a large percentage

of schools are required, thereby

514

limiting employment or opportunities

for those without the certificate.

515

Now, I'm going to interject here and

say That would be basically all of

516

Ireland and maybe, you know, Dublin

6, I think is the most diverse

517

place in Ireland in terms of school.

518

I think it's something like 60, 66 percent

of schools are Catholic in Dublin 6.

519

I think it's the best, or is it

Lucan might be actually a bit is,

520

is, is, has a better you know, isn't,

is, is more diverse, but that's it.

521

Everywhere else in Ireland has

at least 80 to 90 percent or more

522

schools under a Catholic ethos.

523

And if you increase that Christian

ethos, you could be up to 90, you

524

could be up to 100 percent of schools

in certain counties like Leitrim,

525

Longford and a couple of other places.

526

So, you know, It's interesting.

527

So it could be viewed, I

would say, is discriminatory.

528

So, so far, I would say that's chatGPT

being balanced in inverted commas.

529

Anyway, it becomes particularly

contentious if state funded schools

530

insist on it, which they do, as this might

be seen as a lack of state neutrality

531

in religious matters, which it is.

532

However, from the perspective of

preserving the religious ethos of Catholic

533

institutions, the requirement makes sense.

534

It ensures that teachers are well

equipped to deliver the specific

535

religious curriculum in the school offers.

536

That also makes sense, and it would make

sense if we had private Catholic schools.

537

for those who, who need them.

538

The debate hinges on the tension between

individuals rights, in this case, the

539

right to employment without religious

prequisites, and the rights of religious

540

institutions to maintain their identity.

541

The answer might be, might vary

based on societal context, legal

542

frameworks, and personal perspectives.

543

Now, I imagine my conclusion

will be different.

544

to those who are happy

with the status quo.

545

I know there are many in the status quo

who won't disagree with CHAT GPT either,

546

and they will loudly exalt that it is

wrong that there are so many Catholic

547

schools, and then promptly do absolutely

nothing to counter that problem, which

548

to me says more about everything.

549

Anyway, I cannot count the number of

people that tell me, and I understand

550

why they do this where they say, I would

love to say something, but however, any

551

analysis of the closest we'll get to an

alien's interpretation of our education

552

system would suggest that the insistence

of a certificate in Catholic religious

553

education is problematic at best.

554

Obviously, my view is that it

is absolutely discriminatory.

555

I, I mean, I can't think anyone

listening to this would think that

556

it's anything but discriminatory.

557

You know, I, I think sometimes when

something's Outlined by a neutral

558

observer, you know, it's very hard

to interpret in a different way.

559

But if you have, I'd

love to hear from you.

560

I mean, please, please you know, reply to

when I put this up on X or Twitter or X.

561

I suppose now I have to call it reply

where you, where you listen to this and

562

kind of think, let me know what you think.

563

Is it discriminatory or not?

564

And then I suppose, you know, I, I

kind of I suppose, what do we do then?

565

What, what do we do if we,

if we accept discriminatory?

566

Do we do something about it or do we just

kind of pretend and keep playing along

567

with the, with the system as it stands?

568

I'm, I'm, I mean, I know what I would do.

569

We, we obviously need to do

something about it because we are

570

going to become a more diverse

profession whether we like it or not.

571

We are already have

really diverse classrooms.

572

We already have some schools in the

country and six counties in Ireland

573

have Classrooms where more than 50

percent of the children are opted

574

out of religion in these classes.

575

It's it makes sense Also, the the

census figures at the moment only 53

576

percent of 29 or 25 to 29 year olds

identify as Catholic So we're you

577

know, these are the people who are

going to be hopefully I presume are

578

going to be raising their children Not

in the Catholic tradition, so that's

579

going to be kind of difficult as well.

580

Like, we can't just do

nothing, is what I'd be saying.

581

So, that comes down to the question

of what would I would do if I

582

were the Minister for Education?

583

And, I think it's pretty obvious that

if I were the Minister for Education,

584

number one, I would be removing the

requirement for any certificate in.

585

Ethical education, religious education, is

a requirement to teach in those schools.

586

And number two, obviously, in the

bigger picture, I would be removing that

587

religious or secular indoctrination.

588

So both of these things.

589

So when I say indoctrination, I

mean that you say that something

590

is a fact and you do not talk about

other faiths or other beliefs.

591

So I suppose I should explain this a

little bit before I, before I finish

592

because people say to me, I mean, you

just want a secular education system.

593

I don't.

594

I want a secular education system,

particularly in my understanding

595

of the word secular education,

because again, that's a gray area.

596

I don't believe it is okay to have

a system where you don't mention

597

religion at all, or you don't

teach about religions at all.

598

I think we all live in a world where

the majority of people have a faith, and

599

it's important for us to understand why

people do what they do, the rituals that

600

they do, and what we all have in common.

601

anD you can't do that in a secular

education system similar to, let's

602

say, the French system where, you

know, Muslim people can't wear

603

their hijabs, Christians can't wear

crucifixes, and things like that.

604

That is not an inclusive education system

either, in the same way as a Catholic

605

school insisting that you only teach about

Catholicism, or you teach that Catholicism

606

is the truth is not okay either.

607

What I see As the if I were the minister

for education is a system where everybody

608

goes to their local school and their

values and their faith or lack of

609

faith or whatever, or their beliefs

are as important as each other's.

610

And we learn about each other

and we learn from each other.

611

And for me, that's how we get a system

working and we stop putting in boundaries.

612

Barriers and obstacles for to ensure

that everybody in a school is welcome.

613

And so they're my two cents worth.

614

I'd love to hear what you think.

615

Thanks for listening and

we'll catch you again.

616

So there you have it.

617

I hope you enjoyed that episode and if

you have any comments, please be sure

618

to go on to our social media channels,

Simon M Lewis, or you can go to the

619

blog where you'll find the show notes.

620

That's simonmlewis.

621

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622

com or you can go to anseo.net to

tune into this and any other episode.

623

If you're interested in subscribing to

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624

on your favorite podcasting platform

where you can tune in every fortnight

625

or so when a new episode will land.

626

I'm thinking of creating a bit of

a mailing list where I can share

627

some other thoughts and extra

things for people that want them.

628

And, let me know what

you think on that too.

629

So look, that's it for me for this week.

630

Thanks so much for listening.

631

All the very best.

632

Bye.

633

Bye.