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19. Axie Infinity Hacked, AR Contacts, Play And Earn Variations, Metaverse Fashion Week
Episode 195th April 2022 • META Business • Holodeck Media
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In this episode, we discuss Mojo Vision's augmented reality contact lens prototype, Alibaba leading a $60 million investment round for Nreal AR glasses, Anthony Charlton arguing games should follow the play-and-earn model, DeFinance Capital and Delphi Digital backing Crypto Raiders, hackers stealing $620 million worth of cryptocurrencies from Axie Infinity, what it's like attending metaverse Fashion Week, and so much more!

Episode 19 Keywords: Mojo Vision, augmented reality contact lenses, Alibaba investments, Nreal, AR glasses, Anthony Charlton, play-and-earn models, DeFinance Captial, Delphi Digital, Crypto Raiders, hackers, cryptocurrencies, Axie Infinity, metaverse Fashion Week

Transcripts

Unknown:

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The Metaverse and web three are bringing about the

Unknown:

biggest revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the

Unknown:

juice Cohen. We will be bringing you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into what it

Unknown:

all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

Paul Dawalibi:

From the boardroom to the metaverse. This is the meta business podcast. I am

Paul Dawalibi:

Paul Dawalibi. I'm joined today by my friend and co host, Jeff, the juice Cohen. For those of you

Paul Dawalibi:

who are new here, welcome to the official podcast of the metaverse, what we do is we cover the most

Paul Dawalibi:

pressing, Metaverse, topics and news of the week. But we look at all of it through a business and C

Paul Dawalibi:

suite lens, we dissect, we analyze the business implications of everything happening in this

Paul Dawalibi:

amazing industry. For our regular listeners. Thank you guys for tuning in every week. Thank you for

Paul Dawalibi:

all the love the five star ratings and reviews if you haven't yet, share the meta Business Podcast

Paul Dawalibi:

with your friends, your family, your colleagues, leave a five star rating and review. Or if you

Paul Dawalibi:

don't want to do any of the above, at least hit that follow or subscribe button. Wherever you

Paul Dawalibi:

listen to this podcast. We really appreciate it. It helps others to find the show. Jeff, how you

Paul Dawalibi:

doing this week?

Jeff Cohen:

Good. That felt like a new a new intro. And we face Oh,

Paul Dawalibi:

it's same intro. I literally do it almost like three times a week with slight

Paul Dawalibi:

variations between each one. And you as you know now, I don't do it with a script. And I do it live

Paul Dawalibi:

every time. For whatever

Jeff Cohen:

reason I never thought I'd heard you save the official podcast matters. I was gonna say

Jeff Cohen:

we were now spot you know, we're now sponsored by the capital.

Paul Dawalibi:

Well, our sister podcast business of esports podcast has always been the official

Paul Dawalibi:

podcast of esports. Everyone knows that that way. And no reason why this shouldn't be the official

Paul Dawalibi:

podcast of the metaverse. How was your week? It was good.

Jeff Cohen:

It's good. Yeah, it's always busy here. You know, ACC was traveling last week. So

Jeff Cohen:

it's good to be to be back in the home studio here. I feel like we have such a busy week of news

Jeff Cohen:

like, maybe not that we've had bigger weeks in terms of one story being bigger, but we have like

Jeff Cohen:

a bevy of stories that feels like too

Paul Dawalibi:

many. I don't know if we're gonna get to them all we're gonna try. And so let me

Paul Dawalibi:

introduce the first let's do the first two stories sort of together. And I think, you know, you

Paul Dawalibi:

mentioned you were traveling. This is an interesting one in terms of getting into the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse, right like we we've been talking a lot about the metaverse and what's there once you're

Paul Dawalibi:

there, and you know, what it should be and what it's not. And but I think we've sort of hit very

Paul Dawalibi:

little on how do you actually get there, right? Like, how do we access this virtual world. And

Paul Dawalibi:

there's two articles here two technologies that I think are really interesting. The first one here,

Paul Dawalibi:

this is from VentureBeat. And the headline is Mojo vision, unveils latest augmented reality contact

Paul Dawalibi:

lens prototype, there's this very cool looking contact lens with what looks like circuitry and

Paul Dawalibi:

stuff inside of it. Obviously, if you're listening to this, you can't see it. So I'm trying to

Paul Dawalibi:

describe it here. But the smart what they call a smart contact lens is going to bring invisible

Paul Dawalibi:

computing to life, the company believes it's a they've reached the sort of critical milestone

Paul Dawalibi:

with this prototype. And it's going to enable what they call like innovation at the intersection of

Paul Dawalibi:

smartphones, AR VR, smart wearables, health tech, etc. So it's going to have a display in it.

Paul Dawalibi:

Initially, the target markets for people with like poor vision, but obviously we could see something

Paul Dawalibi:

like this developing into an on ramp, a very seamless on ramp to potentially a virtual world

Paul Dawalibi:

where you don't have to wear something, you know, big clunky headset on your face. I will put this

Paul Dawalibi:

next to the next story, which is Alibaba on the news, leaving a $60 million funding round into AR

Paul Dawalibi:

glasses maker Enrile. And obviously, that's going to go towards r&d. They're a Chinese company, or

Paul Dawalibi:

at least the most, I think they're a Canadian company originally and but they released most of

Paul Dawalibi:

their products in China first. They have two products today, the light or the air. There's a

Paul Dawalibi:

picture here, they're a little bit clunky, they sort of look like clunky. What do you call those

Paul Dawalibi:

sports glasses, like Oh, clean style glasses. And they also think they're going to be building sort

Paul Dawalibi:

of the on ramps to, you know, great mixed reality experiences with these sort of cool more seamless

Paul Dawalibi:

Looking Glasses. Now, you know, we like I said, we've spent a lot of time talking about the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse itself. What do you make of new developments? Jeff around the on ramps to the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse and what do you think will win The day like if you had to, you had a crystal ball here.

Jeff Cohen:

And I mean, the first one is super exciting. And I wonder if we had talked about a

Jeff Cohen:

similar company a bunch of episodes back, I wonder if it actually same one that was doing kind of

Jeff Cohen:

wearable, you know, AI technology, although it seemed like they were, you know, waiting way

Jeff Cohen:

earlier stage this one they have a prototype that will be very curious to, to actually try and see

Jeff Cohen:

what you know whether the reality is is kind of as much sold. The one thing I thought was funny, just

Jeff Cohen:

as an aside, you said the target market it was to start with people with that vision is just a

Jeff Cohen:

massively small, you know, vision vision pun intended, when you're thinking about what the what

Jeff Cohen:

they're going after creating the metaverse wearable technology that it's like, oh, actually,

Jeff Cohen:

it's just a contact lens. So that's felt funny to me. There, but you know, this this, this one is

Jeff Cohen:

super interesting. I think we've gone back and forth on this podcast and I know a lot of kind of

Jeff Cohen:

thought leaders around the metaverse have gone back and forth whether you know, the metaverse

Jeff Cohen:

needs to be VR, whether it will be us wearing some sort of wearable, like how we will enter the

Jeff Cohen:

metaverse if you will. And I've gone back and forth, you know, personally as well. I do think

Jeff Cohen:

you know, for us to get to like the capital T capital M Metaverse that we always sort of talk

Jeff Cohen:

about, I do think it's going to have to be some sort of virtual reality, you know, you're going to

Jeff Cohen:

have have physical field physical presence in a virtual world. And I'm not sure that you can get

Jeff Cohen:

that with the current platforms that we have Roblox fortnight to the world. I mean, I don't

Jeff Cohen:

know if you just

Paul Dawalibi:

obviously, like the closest we come today or the good VR headsets, right? And let's

Paul Dawalibi:

put aside other senses, right? Like, let's put aside smell, and taste and like movement and, you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, like sensation in your body? Because that's solved by other hardware, right, potentially. So

Paul Dawalibi:

like, park that for the moment? How do we solve like, making your vision and and what you're

Paul Dawalibi:

seeing immersive to the point where you forget, potentially you're in a virtual world, or you can

Paul Dawalibi:

spend most of your, your awake life in the virtual world, right? The closest we come today are these

Paul Dawalibi:

VR headsets. But my question is, how immersive and invasive do the hardware solutions become over

Paul Dawalibi:

time? And where what what is the end game, right? Because I can see the current crop of VR headset

Paul Dawalibi:

VR headsets getting thinner and lighter, right? And maybe that look starts to look and feel more

Paul Dawalibi:

like an Enrile pair of glasses, right? Where you can't really tell you're wearing anything other

Paul Dawalibi:

than maybe a slightly thicker pair of sunglasses, right that I could see it as a potential end game.

Paul Dawalibi:

But I could be convinced that contact lens with a whole bunch of intelligence inside of it, and the

Paul Dawalibi:

microprocessor and battery, and screen and like all the things that Mojo was putting up putting in

Paul Dawalibi:

this contact lens, I could see that as a potential end game. I think the ultimate end game and it's

Paul Dawalibi:

not clear if we ever get if we get to this by choice or otherwise, is an implant right? Because

Paul Dawalibi:

the fastest way to immerse your all your senses, in not just your vision is to just control the

Paul Dawalibi:

electrical signals going to your brain. And that solves for potentially smell and other things as

Paul Dawalibi:

well. I don't know, I don't know if there's a point where society sort of pushes back and says

Paul Dawalibi:

that's too far. Or, or if we're just seeing sort of this evolution happen over time VR headsets,

Paul Dawalibi:

contact lenses, eventually implants? I don't know. I'm curious where you think it ends.

Jeff Cohen:

I mean, implants is interesting. I think if we're talking, you know, 30 years, 50

Jeff Cohen:

years, then I could see that there's always with any of these things clearly going to be a an

Jeff Cohen:

adoption curve. You know, do I see people implanting themselves with these sort of VR

Jeff Cohen:

devices and entering the metaverse anytime really soon? No, um, might we get some early prototypes

Jeff Cohen:

and stuff like that in the next decade? I think I could kind of buy that. But if we're talking about

Jeff Cohen:

a large percentage of people kind of implanting themselves with a sort of psychedelic chip, if you

Jeff Cohen:

will, I think we're a long way away from that. mainstream adoption.

Paul Dawalibi:

No, contact lens is a nice medium, right? It's not invasive, but it's also like the

Paul Dawalibi:

probably the most seamless kind of experience you could imagine that what I think an implant solves

Paul Dawalibi:

for though his other senses, right? Even with a contact lens. You can't solve for smell, you can't

Paul Dawalibi:

solve for taste. You can't solve for some of these other things which an implant in theory could

Jeff Cohen:

Another thing an input or sorry, a contact lens can do is opens up a lot more AR

Jeff Cohen:

versus VR, which I think you know it maybe it gets us away from kind of the metaverse a little bit.

Jeff Cohen:

But I think it creates a lot of really interesting things you could do in the physical world with,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, gamifying different things that you see on your thigh as you're out in the world.

Paul Dawalibi:

Jeff, I want to move on, because we've got a lot to cover here. And I think there's

Paul Dawalibi:

two stories here. Again, I want to put them back to back. Because it's I think this will be a never

Paul Dawalibi:

ending debate on this podcast, and I'm sure in other forums, but the headline here again, another

Paul Dawalibi:

VentureBeat article says, games should promote, play and earn instead of play to earn. Now, this

Paul Dawalibi:

is not the first time I've heard this argument, right. Like the panel I was on, someone used this

Paul Dawalibi:

argument with me. You know, spoiler alert, I disagreed. But, you know, they talk about how they

Paul Dawalibi:

give a little bit of history of MMOs and how, you know, people used to farm loot there and sell them

Paul Dawalibi:

in the real world for dollars. And you know, this is really about meeting gamers where they live and

Paul Dawalibi:

play to earn has had this rocky start people have, you know, this misconception about it. And one way

Paul Dawalibi:

to make this palatable for gamers, is instead of play to earn may adopt this play and earn

Paul Dawalibi:

philosophy when according to the author here, it says, what that means is making virtual items tied

Paul Dawalibi:

to tokens and NF t's a nice bonus, instead of the objective. Fundamentally, gamers want to complete

Paul Dawalibi:

a game not collect loot boxes, or become day traders. So interesting argument here for play and

Paul Dawalibi:

earn versus play to earn. I want to put this next to another article, because I want to give you

Paul Dawalibi:

sort of a trio of terms to argue over here. This is from coin desk, and they're talking about a

Paul Dawalibi:

capital race. So defiance capital, and Delphi digital co lead a $6 million round for crypto

Paul Dawalibi:

Raiders, which is an NFT game. But this NFT game, it's their role playing game, they prefer the term

Paul Dawalibi:

play to own overplayed earn. So let me just summarize here, without going into too much detail

Paul Dawalibi:

on any of these articles. It seems everyone now is allergic to play to earn. Right. And I think it's

Paul Dawalibi:

that allergy came on very fast. Because no one wants to be associated with play to earn anymore,

Paul Dawalibi:

even though it was maybe the hottest thing, literally just you know, a few months ago. And now

Paul Dawalibi:

we're all everyone's trying to reframe it. Okay. And one of the proposed wordings here is play and

Paul Dawalibi:

earn. And then the other proposed wording here is play to own I'm not sure if play and earn or play

Paul Dawalibi:

to own are drastically different. But curious, your thoughts on kind of perhaps the

Jeff Cohen:

thoughts on this because I actually, and I'm 99% sure that the the makers of this

Jeff Cohen:

crypto Raiders game did not read my LinkedIn post a month ago and but if they did, I'd be super

Jeff Cohen:

honored. Because I wrote this on LinkedIn a month ago, and I think you actually had had the exact

Jeff Cohen:

same take I frankly, probably copied you because you're much smarter than I am. But I'll redo it is

Jeff Cohen:

that the web three game ecosystem is losing the PR battle with traditional games. I've seen a lot of

Jeff Cohen:

takes about play to earn versus play Ender. In my opinion, this distinction isn't the problem. The

Jeff Cohen:

problem is the focus on earning earning creates a connotation that the gamer is working, doing a job

Jeff Cohen:

I think the space would be well served to focus on ownership rather than earning potential.

Jeff Cohen:

Blockchain gaming enables players to have real ownership over the in game items they purchase the

Jeff Cohen:

current focus on earning creates a bad taste in gamers mouth and invites needless speculation.

Jeff Cohen:

This is unsustainable. Let's move to play and I pretty much nailed that. You know,

Paul Dawalibi:

I mean, I was with you like 80% of the way and it was it was my take I made like that

Paul Dawalibi:

was pretty much my take it at the you know the crypto conference I spoke at on Play to earn

Paul Dawalibi:

gaming specifically. Now you used to play and own a force variation.

Jeff Cohen:

Ownership is not the point of play. I think that was like you're playing and

Paul Dawalibi:

that's the difference between so I was with you completely You had me right with you.

Paul Dawalibi:

gamers don't want to earn feels like a job right? You're gonna get pushed back whether it's to earn

Paul Dawalibi:

or and earn. Right all feels about the same. But why was ownership different than earning because

Paul Dawalibi:

you earn to own?

Jeff Cohen:

No, not necessarily right? Like owning like,

Paul Dawalibi:

like, what's the point of owning if it has no value,

Jeff Cohen:

I own plenty of things that have no value. I collect pens, for example, I own those

Jeff Cohen:

pens, they definitely have no value, but I own them, I theoretically could sell them, I

Jeff Cohen:

theoretically could throw them away. Like I think that's the important thing about it is the

Jeff Cohen:

distinction. I actually think it is an important distinction, because it's like, when you're

Jeff Cohen:

talking about earning, like I go to work everyday, earn money, right ownership is is different. You

Jeff Cohen:

can own the assets and never think about them in a monetary sense. It could just be Hey, I own them.

Jeff Cohen:

And I can eventually hopefully be able to, there'll be interoperability, so I can bring them

Jeff Cohen:

to another game. So I might not, you know, I might own the gun and Call of Duty and bring it to

Jeff Cohen:

Battlefield. I know that example. Almost certainly never actually work. But hypothetically, I never

Jeff Cohen:

have to sell that gun, but I own it. And I can bring it to the next day.

Paul Dawalibi:

I think that's basically just gaming them. Like, in every game I play there, I

Paul Dawalibi:

have items in my inventory, right? Whether it's Wow, or Counter Strike, or Call of Duty or

Paul Dawalibi:

fortnight or apex or right. I own things in all those games. Like, if it's not about the monetary

Paul Dawalibi:

value of those things. It's sort of just gaming then.

Jeff Cohen:

Well, I mean, number one, I hope that is the case. I think for this to be sustainable.

Jeff Cohen:

It should be about gaming number one. So you're you're probably right. I think the

Jeff Cohen:

interoperability pieces where you may own them. But Activision, could one day just come and shut

Jeff Cohen:

down the servers. Wow, everything you bought, you don't really think you're you're renting it. So I

Jeff Cohen:

think there is that little bit of distinction. Well, I,

Paul Dawalibi:

I feel like this whole the whole community loves getting lost in this intellectual

Paul Dawalibi:

argument of like, what? Weiss? It At what point did play not become good enough? And we had to put

Paul Dawalibi:

two words after it right. Like, and we were arguing is it to own to earn and earn and own to

Paul Dawalibi:

this to that, like, play should just have been good enough. It's been good enough for a long

Paul Dawalibi:

time. It should continue to be good enough. And, and then my pushback Oh, is and this is my take on

Paul Dawalibi:

it. It's not that hard of a take anymore is why can't we find other ways to create value with

Paul Dawalibi:

Blockchain or NF TS or things like that, that don't have to do with owning earning. Like any of

Paul Dawalibi:

the above, right or any other verb people want to put after play. I just feel like we're all going

Paul Dawalibi:

to agree play to own is better. And then six months from now, everyone's going to be surprised

Paul Dawalibi:

when gamers don't want to play to own right and like and are going to push back. Just none of it

Paul Dawalibi:

feels it feels real authentic to me, for gamers standpoint. But I don't know. It feels like a

Paul Dawalibi:

little bit of a useless argument. Because anything that takes away from the play feels like the game

Paul Dawalibi:

is worse in some small way. And if it can't be better, in an obvious way, it's all going to fail.

Paul Dawalibi:

Now, I'm a big proponent of how do we figure out how to marry blockchain or NF T's with gaming

Paul Dawalibi:

right? I'm a huge fan of this. I think it could be a massive piece of the industry. But I

Paul Dawalibi:

continuously challenge myself and others to figure out how are we adding value to gamers beyond just

Paul Dawalibi:

words? Right because the words feel fancy for nothing. And the arguments sort of feel academic

Paul Dawalibi:

for nothing.

Jeff Cohen:

I guess one thing I'm think one does maybe other distinction. And maybe I don't even

Jeff Cohen:

know if this entirely accurate. But there's a difference between owning the endgame items versus

Jeff Cohen:

earning in game currency. Okay, know what's actually a big part of it is like you're playing

Jeff Cohen:

the game to earn that smooth Love Potion SLP that you can then trade for Fiat. Versus like, Hey, I

Jeff Cohen:

bought a sword I now own the sword. It's pretty cool to own the sword. I could sell it. I could

Jeff Cohen:

put it in a different game. Like, that's cool. Versus like, Hey, I'm gonna use the sword. I'm

Jeff Cohen:

gonna kill a monster there's gonna be a bunch of gold that shoots out and that gold is worth money

Jeff Cohen:

and I'm just gonna do it endlessly all day. Like that. Those are two different

Paul Dawalibi:

Yeah, like you're right and so maybe owns a little bit better. But the end earn

Paul Dawalibi:

or to earn to me are equally bad, like literally equally bad. And I always come back.

Jeff Cohen:

All these people infer that these people on Twitter and they say this take this

Jeff Cohen:

whole article They say it as if it's like, oh my god, you had this crazy thought. And it's like,

Jeff Cohen:

you fixed it.

Paul Dawalibi:

We changed to

Jeff Cohen:

totally get it now, like, oh my god, we just had to change that one word and

Jeff Cohen:

everything's fixed.

Paul Dawalibi:

makes me so angry. And you know, my counter is always just like, replace the play with

Paul Dawalibi:

some traditional sport. So it's not a video game, and realize how ridiculous this argument is,

Paul Dawalibi:

right? Like, I'm going to play basketball to earn versus play basketball and earn, like, it's not

Paul Dawalibi:

going to change how many people want to play basketball, like it will literally have no impact.

Paul Dawalibi:

It's it's a silly distinction. And it's, it feels like a crutch, right? Because because then people

Paul Dawalibi:

can avoid the real problem, which is how do we figure out how to drive real benefit to the gamer?

Paul Dawalibi:

You mentioned x infinity, Jeff, and I think it's a great segue to the next story x infinity in the

Paul Dawalibi:

news. And, you know, maybe this is the biggest, you know, crypto NFT Metaverse web three story

Paul Dawalibi:

this week. And and it's a huge hack. This is again, VentureBeat, and the article, the headline

Paul Dawalibi:

is, hackers steal 620 million in Aetherium, and dollars from xe infinity maker sky matresses. Run

Paul Dawalibi:

in network. Now, without getting too much into the details here, I'll just give you the high level

Paul Dawalibi:

they stole 173,600 Ethereum worth $594,000,000.25 point 5 million US dollars. So for a total of 620

Paul Dawalibi:

million. What was hacked was their layer two network called the ronin network. And basically,

Paul Dawalibi:

they were able to take control, there's nine nodes that control this network. And they were able to

Paul Dawalibi:

take control of a majority of them, which gave them control of the whole network. So five of the

Paul Dawalibi:

nodes essentially were compromised out of the nine. And that allowed the hackers to take control

Paul Dawalibi:

of the network and to fake essentially transaction. So have transactions executed on the

Paul Dawalibi:

network that were not authorized, obviously, so huge hack, huge amount of dollars stolen?

Paul Dawalibi:

Obviously, your thoughts on this, but like, Where does a company like xe infinity go from here? I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

assuming these are player losses, not just company losses, like, are they going to have to cough up

Paul Dawalibi:

hundreds of millions of dollars to reimburse players also?

Jeff Cohen:

I don't know. I mean, it's it's very interesting. And I really get there's so much

Jeff Cohen:

here, like at the intersection of gaming and crypto and some of it I don't even know if I'm

Jeff Cohen:

necessarily qualified to even, you know, get in depth into, like, for example, to answer your last

Jeff Cohen:

question. I don't know if it's player losses, or if it's, I know there is a governance token,

Jeff Cohen:

right. So the players of the game can earn this, he gets ROI, that Ronan pokin. And then there's

Jeff Cohen:

like a dowel and the XE Dow. That's one of the validators. So I don't know if it's the Dow that

Jeff Cohen:

lost money. I don't know if it's the company's governance tokens, which are partially owned by

Jeff Cohen:

sky Mavis, the company that owns x infinity and partially by the community. You know, we're

Jeff Cohen:

pulling up another article here. So for people who are watching there, it looks like the the the

Jeff Cohen:

ronin governance token. So aro n, you know, was down 40%, you know, on this news, so obviously,

Jeff Cohen:

that's a massive hit. I think I think the biggest takeaway for me, it's a disaster for Sky Maven. I

Jeff Cohen:

mean, they've already been facing, I would say, a lot of criticism around xe, you know, xe, if we

Jeff Cohen:

rewind to kind of like, over the last summer, I think, was sort of the belle of the ball, because

Jeff Cohen:

it was kind of the first player to earn game that really went. I use mainstream with kind of quotes

Jeff Cohen:

because it didn't really go mainstream.

Paul Dawalibi:

Yeah, first of all, it's some kind of significant player, but yeah,

Jeff Cohen:

exactly, exactly. But then I think people pretty quickly realize, you know, recognize

Jeff Cohen:

a lot of the inherent flaws in the model and how it, you know, kind of relied on a little bit of a

Jeff Cohen:

Ponzi mechanic and sort of like it wasn't really sustainable. So it's taken a fair amount of heat,

Jeff Cohen:

and they've had some changes that they're looking to make to get away from that. But I think a big

Jeff Cohen:

part of the reason why Skye Mavis was able to raise so much money was this, this Ronan? Shane,

Jeff Cohen:

and kind of the I think Ronan has a wallet as well. And it was a little bit how when people talk

Jeff Cohen:

about epic and fortnight they're like, well, fortnight maybe we're declining, but like people

Jeff Cohen:

are buying investors are buying epic because of the Unreal Engine. The store, like Ronin, I think

Jeff Cohen:

was that part of the story where it was like Hey, other company, other game companies are gonna

Jeff Cohen:

build on road to chain and it's this infrastructure play. It's more than just x

Jeff Cohen:

infinity. And so the fact that Ronin was come to the part of the company that you know, obviously

Jeff Cohen:

had this had this hack, I think is a huge issue. For DJI Mavic, because it literally shows that the

Jeff Cohen:

chain of vulnerability, and what will happen here, I think it'll be interesting to see whether

Jeff Cohen:

they're able to recover it. I know, in the history of crypto, there's been a lot of these sort of

Jeff Cohen:

Acts where sometimes they're able to kind of do something to get the money back. Other times, not

Jeff Cohen:

so, you know, it'll be interesting to follow. Obviously, we wish sky Mavis the best of luck and

Jeff Cohen:

really for the industry, because, you know, we're both very bullish on kind of this this industry.

Jeff Cohen:

And we don't want, you know, something like this to be a black mark, which currently right now, I

Jeff Cohen:

think it is, like, how sustainable can this be if the biggest behemoth out there just lost, you

Jeff Cohen:

know, over half a billion dollars, you know, in Finnair that's my it's

Paul Dawalibi:

a huge number, like mind boggling, mind boggling in terms of the size of the number.

Paul Dawalibi:

I think what has always worried me is as the complexity of these platforms, increase it, like,

Paul Dawalibi:

here's my take, sometimes it feels like these platforms are needlessly complex. And they're

Paul Dawalibi:

needlessly complex. Because it, you know, it, it confers some benefit, some small benefit to the

Paul Dawalibi:

user, or it makes it sound more interesting as a platform to investors, or whatever the reasoning

Paul Dawalibi:

is, I find some of these plays. And I'm not saying specifically with xe infinity here, but needlessly

Paul Dawalibi:

complex. And when you have complexity, it's hard to protect, right? Like, any system that has many,

Paul Dawalibi:

many pieces to it, and entry points and ways to get in and ways to hack is difficult to secure.

Paul Dawalibi:

And if a company that has that as sort of as mature as a sky Mavis, right, probably more mature

Paul Dawalibi:

than other players in the space by a significant margin. Again, not a, it's not some runtime meta

Paul Dawalibi:

company that's been around for the last 20 years, but you know, they've raised quite a bit of money

Paul Dawalibi:

they've been they've had success, you would think their platform would be very secure. I just think

Paul Dawalibi:

part of the challenge is the massive complexity of these platforms, make them very, very, very

Paul Dawalibi:

difficult to secure. And when you're talking about this large of a prize, you're gonna have people

Paul Dawalibi:

trying to get in rightly, it's just this is just the reality of it. And so I don't know what the

Paul Dawalibi:

answer is, I don't know, if when we need to be simplifying some of these platforms and how they

Paul Dawalibi:

operate, we need, you know, we need a whole crop of companies that are all about security around,

Paul Dawalibi:

you know, some of these played around games, I don't know, I suspect this will not be the this is

Paul Dawalibi:

not the first this is not the last big hack we're gonna see. But I think it's something that is

Paul Dawalibi:

doesn't get enough attention and really needs to write like, this needs to be fixed fast, or that

Paul Dawalibi:

whole segment of that gaming play to earn gaming space. I mean, if I personally lost money here,

Paul Dawalibi:

what's the chance I come back to xe infinity?

Jeff Cohen:

Probably pretty, pretty low. Probably pretty low. And I think this gets to the heart of

Jeff Cohen:

one of the you know, I think the term for it is the blockchain trilemma. And it's it's basically

Jeff Cohen:

this concept of, you know, there's there's three things. You have decentralization, scalability and

Jeff Cohen:

security, security. And you can really pick two of the three, I think, with Ronan, you know, they

Jeff Cohen:

kind of picked scalability and decentralization and obviously, security was was an issue.

Paul Dawalibi:

That's an interesting, I've not I've not heard that term. And I think it's an

Paul Dawalibi:

interesting one, Jeff, I mean, and maybe that's the case, right? Maybe no one will be able to pick

Paul Dawalibi:

all three. I can guarantee more. We'll be picking security after new stories like that. Let's move

Paul Dawalibi:

on. This last story, I think is super interesting. You know, it's a topic we've touched on before.

Paul Dawalibi:

But the take here, and the article here was particularly interesting. And the headline is I

Paul Dawalibi:

went to fashion week in the metaverse now. It's a long article. I'm not going to recap everything.

Paul Dawalibi:

But they talk about you know, the metaverse in general. They talked about some of the stores they

Paul Dawalibi:

went to like Dolce and Gabbana and decentraland. They talk about, you know how they entered the

Paul Dawalibi:

metaverse. Although this author she says she was using her decade old MacBook Air, which I probably

Paul Dawalibi:

could have advised was the wrong piece of hardware to be doing this to begin with, you know, making

Paul Dawalibi:

her Avatar the problems with the graphics. an after party that she went to, you know, some of

Paul Dawalibi:

the stores in the luxury district and decentraland inside some of the stores. There's some images

Paul Dawalibi:

here, but in general talked about her experience going to Fashion Week and her experience

Paul Dawalibi:

interacting with both the events and the static, call it presence that many brands now have in

Paul Dawalibi:

decentraland. Specifically, I'll just read this one thing it says decentralized event has been

Paul Dawalibi:

described as the first inclusive fashion week, offering a front row seat to anyone with a crypto

Paul Dawalibi:

wallet. But it took two Mac computers and a Dell laptop for me to finally enter decentraland. And

Paul Dawalibi:

even then my sessions lasted 15 minutes at a time before crashing. Now, this is definitely user

Paul Dawalibi:

error, right? Because you don't play you know, graphically intensive games on a decade old

Paul Dawalibi:

MacBook or a Dell laptop. But they concluded by saying glitches aside the experience diff did

Paul Dawalibi:

offer a window into a fascinating furred future worthy of exploration. The ambition behind

Paul Dawalibi:

decentralized first Fashion Week was cause for celebration, and fashion is about newness and

Paul Dawalibi:

novelty than the metaverse was the most on Vogue venue in town. What did you make of this article?

Paul Dawalibi:

I know Jeff, you read it. What did you think of this take on going to the first fashion week in

Paul Dawalibi:

the metaverse and the future of fashion in the metaverse?

Jeff Cohen:

Well, I think he did a pretty good job of being being balanced. I mean, like you said,

Jeff Cohen:

some of the issues that she faced were obviously, you know, her own fault by trying to access the

Jeff Cohen:

metaphors via, you know, a 10 year old MacBook Air. Having said that, I think it's important to

Jeff Cohen:

point that out, because, you know, most people don't have a game, an amazing gaming PC. So if

Jeff Cohen:

we're going to tout, you know, the metaverse is something where you can get billions of people

Jeff Cohen:

into, clearly we're going to need a lot more gaming PCs. So maybe go buy a video or something

Jeff Cohen:

like that. That's a as a joke, obviously. But you know, the I think that's number one, just saying

Jeff Cohen:

how, you know, the tech isn't necessarily widely dispersed in order to get into this metaverse.

Jeff Cohen:

Also, some of the pictures in the article, you know, for people who are watching this and not,

Jeff Cohen:

you know, listening to this, it's, it's not that impressive. The graphics, you know, decentraland

Jeff Cohen:

graphics just aren't very good. It's not, you know, like HD stuff. It's more like, Bro boxy,

Jeff Cohen:

kind of like block graphics. It also just looks very sparse. Like there's not a ton of people

Jeff Cohen:

it's, you know, sparsely attended. So that is that's, that's kind of a little bit of a black

Jeff Cohen:

mark. I think in general, though, I love this idea. I think we talked about it a couple months

Jeff Cohen:

back when this was first announced. We're both fairly bullish on this. And I like the idea of

Jeff Cohen:

fashion in the virtual world. I think it's one of those things along with gaming that just like they

Jeff Cohen:

will be parts of the metaverse very clearly. So I'm pretty bullish on that. And I'd like

Jeff Cohen:

hopefully, you know, this, this continues, and we see more of these and continues to grow in terms

Jeff Cohen:

of people and interest. I didn't see that many art, you know, besides the fact that we do this

Jeff Cohen:

podcast and literally, you know, Google every week articles in the metaverse, I didn't see this

Jeff Cohen:

Pierce, kind of the more of the consciousness of the the mainstream, like I didn't see on the Today

Jeff Cohen:

Show or on CNBC or, you know, other outlets like talking about this, which I'm a little I would

Jeff Cohen:

have liked to have seen a little more mainstream coverage.

Paul Dawalibi:

Of that that piece is an interesting insight. Interesting thought. I'm

Paul Dawalibi:

maybe not too surprised by that, like it, here's my tinfoil hat theory on that one, you know. It's

Paul Dawalibi:

like this is in some ways a threat to real Fashion Week's right, like New York Fashion Week, or, or

Paul Dawalibi:

Paris Fashion Week, or any, any of the big sort of global in the sense that those are pretty like for

Paul Dawalibi:

anyone who's been to a show, or like a big show, right? For big design, or in any one of those

Paul Dawalibi:

fashion carries. It's a pretty closed world, right? For the most part, they're invited only,

Paul Dawalibi:

you either have to be a tremendous customer of the brand, or from the industry or a buyer, or media

Paul Dawalibi:

from the industry, right? Like it's a very closed off world, just loving fashion and being

Paul Dawalibi:

interested in being interested in fashion. Like, you're never going to be invited to Le sabse you

Paul Dawalibi:

know, runway show in Paris, that's just not gonna happen. And so, I love this accessibility argument

Paul Dawalibi:

and I love sort of being able to bring that Fashion Week experience to potentially millions,

Paul Dawalibi:

billions of other people that would never otherwise get that experience and I think that's

Paul Dawalibi:

special. You know, the author does make a good point that you need a gaming PC Now, having said

Paul Dawalibi:

that, her phone was probably a better a way better piece of hardware to do this than her 10 year old

Paul Dawalibi:

MacBook Air and probably could have rendered these graphics a lot better. But like it's hard not to

Paul Dawalibi:

be a fan right and not to like the fact that what I would consider, like, you know, there's an image

Paul Dawalibi:

here of the LE sub store and decentraland, Elissa, like spent 10s. Fifth, like 50 million plus

Paul Dawalibi:

building a store on Madison Avenue in New York, right? This probably cost a fraction of that. What

Paul Dawalibi:

is the long term value of a presence like this, assuming these platforms really take off in a big

Paul Dawalibi:

way? My guess is the ROI here is probably considerably higher, right? If you look at a five

Paul Dawalibi:

or 10 year, kind of timeline. And so you have to appreciate that. Brands that maybe aren't the most

Paul Dawalibi:

tech savvy in the world to begin with, have taken a pretty big leap here into into the unknown. And,

Paul Dawalibi:

and I think long term it's gonna pay off I do believe, I think what has to be solved. And we

Paul Dawalibi:

started with this, and we'll close with this is how do you get here? Right? Like, what are the on

Paul Dawalibi:

ramps, and how do you make those on ramps? And on one hand accessible, but also high fidelity?

Paul Dawalibi:

Right? Because if you look at her photos, this is not this is not high fidelity, high fashion worthy

Paul Dawalibi:

graphics. Let's put it that way. But I I'm less worried about the technology problems. I think

Paul Dawalibi:

solving the adoption problem is the bigger one. And the fact that most of the brands are here,

Paul Dawalibi:

says something. Jeff, that wraps up this week's podcast.

Jeff Cohen:

Is it goodbye, Action Pack, we got action tag stories in there.

Paul Dawalibi:

Guys, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Make sure to hit that follow subscribe

Paul Dawalibi:

button, whether you're on Spotify or Apple podcast or Google Play or Stitcher or, you know, literally

Paul Dawalibi:

any of the 50 platforms you can find our podcast on. Also go subscribe to our sister podcast

Paul Dawalibi:

business of esports and met a woman they're equally great. And, and let us know. Send us

Paul Dawalibi:

feedback. Reach out to Jeff reach out to myself. Let us know maybe things you want to hear us talk

Paul Dawalibi:

about. Go follow Jeff on Twitter at Jeff Cohen 23. He's always got interesting takes on on the

Paul Dawalibi:

business of the metaverse and, and yeah, let us know how you're liking the show and anything you

Paul Dawalibi:

want to hear us talk about. Guys. Don't forget the future is fun. And we will see you next week.

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