In this plainspoken episode, Dave and Dennis discuss why salespeople talk too much instead of listening. Dennis shares research showing humans get a dopamine rush from talking about themselves, which explains why sales folks ramble on. He emphasizes that active listening helps salespeople feel less afraid of questions. Dave describes how preparing just a few good questions as a journalist allowed him to listen better and ask better follow-ups. Dennis introduces his "chain of questions" technique for listening effectively. They agree that controlling the conversation less while listening more leads to sales success. Tune in for their down-to-earth tips on improving your sales skills by being a better listener and letting the customer talk.

Hey, I'm Dave Salter and you guys have landed on Connect and

Convert the podcast where we talk a little bit about insider secrets for

sales success for small businesses.

And I'm joined once again by my compatriot, Dennis Collins.

Dennis, what's going on?

How you doing, Dave?

Good to be with you again.

Good to be with you as well.

Interesting topic today we're gonna talk about why do salespeople

ask too little and talk too much.

And I'll tell you what I have a for instance to maybe help get you going.

So you've had an experience.

I grew up in New Jersey.

And I'm not sure if it's New Jersey or New York who has a worse

reputation for used car salespeople.

Okay.

Eh, probably not.

Um, so, but I'm in Jersey.

And so these guys I get it right.

So they've got a small margin, profit margin.

They want to maximize their time.

So when you get on their lot and step outta your car they're like flying out

the door and they just start talking and you can't get a word in edgewise.

And it's it's a cliche and we've seen it in movies and TV

shows but it actually happens.

And so it goes against, what we talk about, here.

They're not establishing any relationships.

They're not establishing any trust.

And yet you have this need.

You can't afford a new car so you, you have this need to purchase a used car

and it's every lot you go to, it's the same, same routine over and over again.

So I think this is a great topic for to discuss today.

So Dave, can I ask you, you describe something that I

think most people have experienced.

How does that make you feel as a customer?

How does that hit you?

I think the first impression you get is that they're

they're not interested in me, they're interested in how much

I'm gonna put in their pocketbook.

So then that leads to the next thought is like what if something happens to the car?

I, is there a warranty?

Are they gonna take care of this?

So either there's no personal connection, so then it makes you

question the value of your transaction.

Doesn't it though?

Yeah.

Should I do business with these people?

Exactly.

Wow.

Pretty scary.

I hate to tell you this, Dave, but the research recently is very clear.

Unfortunately, salespeople are talking too much.

They're talking too fast.

They're using jargon, okay?

And they're not actively listening.

Shock newsflash, right?

This is gonna make national news.

Unfortunately not.

What's the common narrative about salespeople?

The fast talking, pushy only concerned about closing at all costs.

Remember the movie, Glengarry Glen Ross?

Did you ever see that movie?

We're, I'm dating myself, but I do.

You could have seen online or something, you know, it's out there.

But classic example, Alec Baldwin is the sales manager.

Always be closing.

A, B, C,.

Yep.

He had a whole list of things you're supposed to do and

say, "coffee is for closers."

"Put that coffee down."

Some classic lines.

Anyway, that's the pushy overaggressive close at all costs that it really

doesn't, it's being used, but it really doesn't work much anymore.

This has obviously a major, major impact on the probability of closing.

Is there any research or is it just anecdotal, Dennis,

the sort of the transition from that used car salesman approach to more to

what, what you coach your folks to do?

Yeah.

Well, there's now a pretty highly respected and highly used formula

that the salesperson should be talking only 30% of the time and the customer

should be talking 70% of the time.

Wow.

Think back to transactions maybe you've had recently.

Was it 70 30 or was it more 70 them talking and maybe 30 you talking?

But, you know, there's a bunch of reasons.

Today we want to investigate why this is happening.

Yeah.

This isn't just used car salesman in New Jersey.

Yeah.

This is everywhere worldwide.

Salespeople tend to overtalk and under ask.

So what's the, is there some psychology behind that?

There happens to be.

There are two Harvard researchers, Tamir and Mitchell.

Tamir and Mitchell.

They must not have had enough to do one day.

And so they decided to do a research project on why we love to talk so

much and they use those F-M-R-I machines, they can look at your brain

lighting up and all this and that.

And what they found out is that when we human beings are talking, when

we're expressing the brain, the part of the brain associated with pleasurable

feelings lights up like a Christmas tree.

Okay.

It's like a shot of dopamine.

Okay.

Wow.

So there's, there is a scientific reason why we like to talk so much.

Point blank, it feels good.

It just feels good.

Okay.

So you meet somewhat at a party.

First time you ever met him.

Right.

They're asking you a lot of questions.

That's a very nice way to start a conversation, ask a lot of

questions, and they're actually listening to all your answers.

But then it happens, you cross into T-M-I zone.

Or as I call it, the cringe zone.

You start cringing.

'cause you're like, oh, I really didn't need to hear that.

This person has got you so engaged in talking, okay?

They're asking the question and you're doing the answering, and your

dopamine is going crazy and you talk more and then you talk more, and then

you talk more 'cause you're getting a hit every time you self-disclose.

So we can't totally blame the salespeople or their sales managers.

Let's blame the brain.

Okay.

But what about, what if we allowed our customers to get

that hit of dopamine instead of us?

Now you're onto something, aren't you?

So if we have that need to self-disclose and tell everything, even the T-M-I stuff,

don't our customers have the same thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you're a skillful, if you're a skillful questioner, guess

what your customer's gonna do?

They're gonna tell you everything you need to know because they get the same dopamine

hit that you get when they're talking.

Dennis, why do you think salespeople attempt

to control the conversation?

Well, again, aside from the science, aside from the science, we

found another, they Tamir and Mitchell found another thing, by the way, in

their research, people will give up money will give up money to spend

more time talking about themselves.

They did the study, they offered a substantial amount of money

in different experiments, right?

And then people said, no, I'd rather continue talking about myself.

Really?

Uh, yeah.

In the moment it's much harder and far, far less rewarding to listen.

What reward do you get for listening?

It's a delayed gratification if you're a good listener, you will get things at the

end of the day, maybe a closure of a sale, better understanding, but the immediate

dopamine is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.

That's immediate.

The value, the, the benefits of listing only come later.

So there's gotta be some reasoning some, maybe some causes behind

salespeople who like to talk too much.

Other than the scientific part of it.

---------------------------------------- Dennis Collins: I, here's what I've done in monitoring thousands of sales calls,

both recorded calls and in person calls.

Here's a couple things that I find cause salespeople to talk too much.

Number one, they wanna impress their customer.

I am the smartest guy in this room.

I know my stuff.

Okay.

They feel that they have to inform, to educate, to pitch everything they know.

Right?

Uh, a week or so, a couple weeks ago, I got a recorded sales call in

a state where it's legal, by the way.

From a client.

He sent me a recording of one of his salespeople.

It was 53 minutes in length, okay?

So I clocked it.

The first clock, it was, how much time was the salesperson talking?

How much time was the customer talking?

Take a guess.

David, what do you think?

Uh, 80 20 salesperson,

43 minutes out of the 53 minutes was the salesperson talking.

Wow.

Yeah.

And this is a person allegedly who has been trained not to do that.

So it's a hard habit to break.

Uh, uh, we are, most of us are taught to pitch, to present.

That's how I was taught.

Most people were taught to pitch.

They're taught to memorize a presentation, a proposal, and

to regurgitate it upon command.

Mm-hmm.

That's comfortable.

That's a comfort zone.

Okay.

It's uncomfortable when I have to come into your home or meet with

you, and I have to ask you questions.

Oh my gosh.

What questions am I gonna ask you?

I don't know enough questions to ask you.

What if you give me an answer that I can't handle?

So there's a lot of fear, a lot of outside the comfort zone when

you start having to ask questions.

Yeah, they're nervous, they're anxious, they're, and what makes people

feel better is, okay, let's talk.

It makes your dopamine fire and also that's your comfort zone.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, because silence is awkward, right?

So if nobody's saying anything you have silence.

So you're the talker is always compelled to try to fill that silence.

And then you get that hit of dopamine, like you said, and off you go.

You touched on, there's two things.

Number one, I think it's remarkable.

Because nobody, nobody understands how much research

that you actually do on this.

So the fact that you've monitored that many sales calls is remarkable.

I mean, so, because I, you know, a lot of times you won't, we say

this a lot of times, people don't trust you until they know ya.

But if I was looking for a sales coach and I understood how much.

Time and effort that you put into studying this.

It's pretty incredible.

The other thing is that I find interesting and this is.

I, I our sort of our next next nugget if you will.

When I was in school, a century ago, I was terrified to ask questions.

Like I, if you asked the question in class, you were the dumb person, right?

And so consequently I would always, try to find a seat that was middle or back

of the class so I wouldn't get called on.

And the hand never went up, right?

Yeah.

The hand never went up.

I absolutely, I'm not asking a question.

I don't know what the hell the teacher just said, but my mom or

dad maybe can figure it out tonight when I go home, but I'm not gonna

be the one to ask the question.

So why don't salespeople ask more good questions?

Because they're afraid.

Just like you said, first of all questions.

They're, one of the myths is the questions may make the customer uncomfortable.

Why are you questioning me?

Why are you interrogating me?

That's the sign of a salesperson who doesn't know how to

properly use questions.

And of course, if you don't use them right, they can backfire.

Some salespeople think they're mind readers.

Well, I've been through this drill a hundred times.

I know what's on your mind.

Yeah.

Okay.

Try that out.

It's a bad habit, we're, we get in habits, we get in the habit of

pitching and presenting and not asking.

It's much easier to fall back in that comfort zone, that tell mode.

They don't wanna bring up a, they're afraid they might be bringing up an issue

the customer hasn't already thought of.

Okay.

So I've heard that excuse from many salespeople.

Why didn't you ask more questions?

Well, I didn't wanna raise an issue that the customer hadn't already thought of.

Oh, really?

Training, they're unprepared.

You've gotta prepare your questions.

I use a quadrant to describe a lot of things, poor quadrants, to

describe a lot of things in life.

There are four kinds of questions.

We'll do a podcast on that one day.

There are four different kinds of questions that you use and a sales

call, and we'll talk about that.

So to me the, there's a third part of this and, so how

would you go about coaching someone to do what I'm getting from you are

the three most important things.

A, stop controlling the conversation.

B, ask great questions, but equally important, be a great listener.

Dave, if I had if you were to press me against the

wall right now and say, what is it?

What is the one thing?

And I would tell you, it all ties back to listening.

Why are you as a salesperson so afraid to ask a question?

Because you have to listen and you have to actively listen.

I do a lot of in-person teaching on seminars and workshops, and I do a little

exercise, a listening exercise to test the level of, are you really listening?

It's pretty sad.

We do not listen.

And most people don't know how to listen.

So one of the things we teach in our sales training, one of the early

workshops is li active listening.

How do you prove that you're actively listening?

There are ways to prove that we touch that in our workshops.

Embrace pauses and silence.

Dramatic, huh?

Concentrate.

It's difficult not to be thinking about what you're gonna say next

while another person is talking.

That's if you don't have your questions mentally prepared.

A scheme, a format, a framework of questions.

That's what we teach in our four quadrants so that you know what quadrant are you

in, tell you what questions to ask.

Okay?

Actively.

Actively listen.

I think if active listening, if we were all active listeners, we

would all ask better questions.

We wouldn't be afraid of 'em because we know we can handle

any answer that we're given.

Yeah.

When you actively listen, you are prepared to, if you know how to actively

listen, you can handle any answer.

So it, the interesting thing is after I spent, decades not

wanting to ask questions in class, I actually my first profession was asking

questions as a journalist, right?

But what I used to do is, I don't know how your qua I, I'll we'll see your

quadrants maybe in another episode.

Yeah.

That's a whole nother story.

Yeah.

So what I used to do is I would do a little research on the subject,

whether it was a person or event, whatever the thing might be.

And then I would only prepare like maybe three or four really good questions

because what I started finding out as I, became a more seasoned Journalist

is that most times what the pers the person's response would trigger

a better question than something I might have written down beforehand.

So, and this, so this kind of reinforces what you're talking about listening

because I found that the more, and the, the more I was unprepared.

In the sense that I didn't have, 12 questions written down.

If I went in with three, four really good questions and I let the other

person respond and listen to those I and play off of those responses,

I ended up with much better material than if I just rattled off those 12

questions that you might write down.

Well, you just taught one module in our sales training.

We teach the, we call it the chain of questions.

Yeah.

And you can only have a chain of questions if you're listening.

If you're not listening, you can't do it because you'll go back to your

sheet and the next question has nothing to do with the last answer, which

makes you seem like a total fool.

So we teach listening as a, as an entree into a chain of questions,

which as you just so correctly said, gives you better information.

Before we close up, is there anything we missed on this?

Is there anything, any more you wanna reinforce about listening?

I think we just gotta overcome that chemical thing that we all

have that human chemical thing to speak.

Also social styles has we talked about this in another segment, the

languages of the customers, right?

The driver and expressive type social styles.

Live to talk, right?

They live to make declarative statements, the amiable and

the analytical live to ask.

So myself as an expressive driver, I had to learn how to ask questions.

It is not natural to me.

It is.

I.

Against my two main styles.

It was a struggle.

It still is a struggle, and I understand for those of you who have that same

struggle, I get it, but guess what?

We've got to turn that around if you're going to be a success in sales.

More questions, fewer statements.

Yep.

Stop controlling conversation and listen.

Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

After you get done listening, after you get done listening, listen some more.

Sounds great, Dennis.

Thanks for your insight as always a lot to learn.

That wraps up another issue of Connect and Convert, where we give you some

insider information on successful sales strategies for small business owners.

I'm Dave Salter with Dennis Collins, and we shall see you next time.