Host Ryan Nauman welcomes Ethan Powell, Principal and CIO at Brookmont Capital Management, to discuss catastrophe bonds and how they help insurers transfer tail risks from natural disasters while offering investors potential income and diversification. Powell explains how fully cash-collateralized 144A cat bonds work, including triggers, attachment points, and how returns combine SOFR earned on collateral with a risk premium funded by insurer premiums. They cover why cat bonds can improve pricing transparency and scalability in an opaque insurance market, potentially supporting insurance availability in high-peril areas. The conversation addresses rising climate volatility, recent insured-loss trends, AI’s role in faster damage assessment and improved modeling (especially for wildfires), liquidity in the cat bond market, key risks (natural disaster impairments), and how advisors typically use cat bonds as a satellite alternative income allocation via Brookmont’s ETF.

Connect with Ryan Nauman:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryannauman1/

X: https://twitter.com/LkTahoeBadger

www.NaumanStrategicPartners.com

Learn more about Brookmont Capital Management: https://www.brookmont.com/

00:00 Disaster Risk Meets Investing

00:56 Meet Ethan Powell

02:36 Why Insurance Is Breaking

03:54 How Cat Bonds Work

05:38 Rising Losses And Volatility

07:29 AI And Wildfire Modeling

10:47 Transferring Risk With Cat Bonds

13:48 Investor Benefits And Diversification

16:40 Liquidity And Market Growth

21:08 Key Risks And Expected Losses

23:21 Cat Bonds Versus Other Bonds

25:59 Portfolio Role And Allocation

28:35 Wrap Up And Resources

Ryan Nauman Host Views from 6,230:

Welcome everyone when hurricanes,

2

wildfires, earthquakes, and natural

disasters strike, the financial impact can

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be staggering, particularly for insurers.

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But what if investors could help shoulder

that risk while potentially earning

5

income and diversifying their portfolios?

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I have on the perfect guest to shed

some light on the topic and what it

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all means for financial advisors as

they build investment portfolios.

8

But first, this episode is sponsored

by the award-winning Zephyr, which

9

helps investment professionals

make more informed investment

10

decisions on behalf of their clients.

11

All right, enough from me.

12

I have already talked enough.

13

Let's go ahead and bring

on the star of the show.

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I am honored and very excited

to welcome Ethan Powell.

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Ethan is a principal and chief investment

officer at Brookmont Management.

16

thank you so much for coming on the show.

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It's an honor to have you on.

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Really excited about this conversation.

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Living up in Lake Tahoe, we

know all about, unfortunately,

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about wildfire season.

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It's almost like now

there isn't a wild season.

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It's

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So really interested about this.

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Can you please tell us a little

bit more about yourself and

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Brookmont Capital Management?

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Ethan Powell Principal & CIO Brookmont Capital Management:

Sure.

27

I've got a 20-plus year investment

experience primarily in alternatives,

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distressed debt alternative

income strategies, which is

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why I love catastrophic bonds.

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Started investing in them pre-'08.

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And they've changed a lot over the years,

which I think hopefully we'll dig into.

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But Brickmark Capital, we're a $1.2

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billion asset manager based in the

very hot Dallas, Texas right now.

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We specialize in alternative

income-oriented strategies both in

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equity and fixed income markets.

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We launched, as you mentioned, the

first catastrophic bond ETF last year.

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It's ticker ILS.

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And our goal is, not only to provide

access to this fantastic asset class,

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but really educate the investing public

on the opportunities it provides, and

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maybe more importantly, the function

it serves in our society in, in helping

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people stay insured in high peril areas

in making housing affordability more

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attainable and through increasing price

transparency and scale in the asset class

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Ryan: Ethan, that's fantastic,

and it's interesting.

44

I have had some conversations about,

natural disasters, and especially here,

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like for example, Lake Tahoe, a lot

of places in California, Florida, it

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is really hard to get insurance now.

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Homeowners insurance, very difficult.

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In fact, there's a lot of places in

Lake Tahoe we can't get insurance.

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We've gotta go through the Cal FAIR Act to

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Which is very expensive.

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So how

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Ethan Powell: Yep

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Ryan: Katterfaugh bonds that?

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You kinda mentioned it in your intro.

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Can you go maybe more into a

little bit more detail there?

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Ethan Powell: Yeah.

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Insurance by its nature is a

relatively opaque marketplace, right?

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You have all these actuaries on

the insurer side crunching numbers.

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They've got certain break

even and profitability goals

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that they're looking at.

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And, if a particular peril or geography

doesn't meet that, then they might exit

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or start writing out specific perils or

exiting geographies altogether, right?

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And what the catastrophic bond market

does is, in addition to reinsurance,

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which is really the primary way they

offset some of the risk, it provides

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access to alternative pools of capital.

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And one of the reasons we like cat

bonds generally, but then the ETF more

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specifically, is the pricing transparency

that it brings to market, right?

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So if I'm an insurer and reinsurer and

I'm packaging up a peril in a geography

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there's something called a trigger, right?

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Which is, hey, it…

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will this get impaired if

certain wind speeds are met or

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seismic activity is detected?

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Or there's another per- or another

trigger type called indemnity, which

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is more common, which is I'm an

insurer, if my losses exceed a certain

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amount over a given time period

within a specific geography and a

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specific peril type, then this bond

helps to offset some of those risks.

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But keep in mind, they're

very much tail risks, right?

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We're talking one in a hundred

year type storms, one in five

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hundred year type storms.

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But what cat bonds does is it kind

of packages this entire ecosystem

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that I think is very foreign to

traditional investors and creates an

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opportunity for them to participate.

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And what that does is it forces

the insurers and reinsurers

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to create market terms, right?

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So risk spread, some of those trigger

types, what's called attachment

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point, which is the, insured damage.

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And so it brings greater transparency and

a little more price discovery and and then

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ultimately scalability which hopefully

will allow some of those insurers to stay

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in markets and not have, as you mentioned,

the California fire bonds have to kick

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in, which are very expensive, right?

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So it's just another alt- alternative form

of capital bringing scale and transparency

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to an oth- otherwise opaque market.

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Ryan: Yeah, that's fantastic, Ethan.

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We're gonna talk more about just

the bonds in general and how they

95

can impact investment portfolios

and the risk reward there.

96

But how does, we talk

about the natural disaster.

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It seems like every year there,

there's more natural disasters,

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whether it's a hurricane, fires,

earth- you name it for whatever reason.

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We won't go there, Ethan, but

how has this impact how insurers

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assess and transfer risk?

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Ethan Powell: It's

interesting that you say that.

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So last year was a great example.

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There was about $108

billion of insured losses.

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Of that, 45 billion or

so were the LA wildfires.

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The balance though was really what's

called severe convective storms, and

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also primarily in the Midwest, right?

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So not a lot of cat bonds dealing

with wind damage or h- or tornadoes

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in Michigan, for example, right?

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But increasingly some of these other

non-traditional geographies are starting

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to incorporate cat bonds for the reasons

you pointed out, just increased climate

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volatility and uncertainty in general.

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But anyway, so you juxtapose the 108

a- and the severe convective storms

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with a hurricane season that saw three

Cat 5 hurricanes, which the most on

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record is four Cat 5 hurricanes in 2005.

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So it was very much anomalous from the

standpoint of several large storms.

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However, not a single named hurricane

hit the contiguous United States, right?

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You're … All of these different factors.

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So you may have some vol-

extreme volatility, but it

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matters when and where it hits.

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And that really ultimately impacts

the cat bond market as much as just

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total volume of insured losses.

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A- as far as insurers are concerned it's

a difficult game as volatility increases.

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Maybe we'll touch on AI.

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I think AI is definitely helping them

catch up to that volatility and helping to

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price that risk more accurately and fairly

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Ryan: Ethan, that's a perfect segue.

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Let's talk about AI.

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It's like we- every conversation

has some type of connection

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to AI, so let's go there.

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How has AI impacted insurers and how

they plan and predict natural disaster?

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Has it become more accurate,

in their prediction models?

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Or like, how has

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Ethan Powell: What's interesting is, and,

we're still, I think, early stages as

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it relates to AI adoption in this space.

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But, you have Verisk and some of these

other services that have been using

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natural language processing for years.

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It just wasn't called AI.

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What's interesting to your point, Ryan,

on, on the predicting aspect is there

139

hasn't been a great uptick in accuracy

of longer term forecasting necessarily.

140

But what it has allowed issuers to do

is much more quickly assess potential

141

damage and risk of a pending storm

and more quickly respond to estimated

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insured losses post-storm as well.

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And then, another thing that it's

really helped to do is helped the

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primary issuance market right?

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When you're setting out the terms of

specific issues, you have much more data

146

and accurate data to bring to market,

and I think the market as a whole

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feels more conf comf- comfortable and

confident in some of the assumptions

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being used in reconciling that to the

terms of the actual cat bond itself.

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So speed to market speed in

processing the implications

150

of specific natural disasters.

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But as of yet, longer term forecasting,

there hasn't been a noticeable

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uptake, but I think it'll come

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Ryan: Yeah.

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And like you said we're early in the game.

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It's still early.

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Ethan Powell: Oh, one thing that you'll

find interesting, Ryan, actually with

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your wildfire exposure is it's, it- AI

is also allowing issuers to model harder

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to model tr- perils like wildfires.

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Historically, it's been a very

difficult … 'Cause there's man-made

160

influences, there's lightning strikes,

there's undergrowth, et cetera.

161

But AI has definitely helped for, for

these non-traditional perils take in

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unstructured data and create a, a far more

accurate picture of what the risks are.

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And that resulted last year in the

largest wildfire cat bond issuance.

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It's only four billion, but

but still it was significantly

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higher than the previous record

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Ryan: Just in.

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Yeah, the lightning risk, hey, you don't

think about, but it started a lot of fire.

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It just started a fire a few weeks ago.

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It was put out quickly, but,

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Ethan Powell: there's, I think it was 3.5

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million acres this year have been

impacted by wildfires with 38,000

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different wildfires reported.

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So it's just, that's a tough,

that's a tough peril to model

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as you can imagine, right?

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Ryan: Exactly.

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And it happens too in places that don't

neces- it's not like there needs to

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be huge forest for a fire to happen

178

Ethan Powell: To your point, Utah year

to date has had more wildfire damage than

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they have in the last four years combined.

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And obviously you've got some very ve-

highly vegetated areas of Utah, but

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it's a lot of desert in Utah also, so

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Ryan: Yeah, you're exactly correct.

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Exactly correct.

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So are insurers doing?

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You- I think I know the answer

here, you've covered it.

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What are insurers doing to transfer

the risk of natural disasters so

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they don't bear 100% of the risks?

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Ethan Powell: You, I like to start

at what is the motivation, right?

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The motivation isn't necessarily to

screw over the investing public, right?

190

The motiv- insurers and reinsurers are in

the business of underwriting risk, right?

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And the more risk they can

underwrite, the more money they make.

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And the more…

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That means the more risk that they

can offload, it creates capacity

194

for them to underwrite more.

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So I like to talk about,

like a hypothetical example.

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If Allstate has the goal of owning

the Houston property and casualty

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market, and they do that, and they

have m- massive market share they

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wake up one day and they realize

we're way overexposed to hurricanes.

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We'd love to underwrite more risk,

but what are we gonna do in the

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event that this hurricane happens?"

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It could, take the firm under, right?

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So what they'll do is they'll issue

a catastrophic bond for Houston

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specifically, and it may be something

like in the next three years if insured

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damages from named hurricanes in Houston

exceed $5 billion, this $500 million

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bond will start to pay 20% of every

claim over 5 billion, for example, right?

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But what that allows them to do is to

free up some of that risk capacity to

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continue to underwrite property and

casualty in the Houston area while

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offloading some of that tail risk, right?

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And another important point is that, you

may say then I'm exposed to Allstate going

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out of business if something happens."

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But these cat bonds that we

invest in are called 144A fully

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cash collateralized cat bonds.

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So when you put your money in the

primary market, the money just sits

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there in basically an SPV collateral

account earnings SOFR, right?

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So 4%.

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And that's your base rate.

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And then the, the insurer is contractually

obligated to divert premiums to help

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pay that risk premium, which, right

now is, call it like 7% depending on

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where you are as far as risk profile.

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But that's So the intent of the insurer

is to defray some of that tail risk and

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the ultimate outcome is the insurers

and reinsurers have greater capacity to

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make insurance product more available

to people living in high peril areas

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Ryan: Perfect example.

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That was really gonna be my next question

is how do they work and what they are, but

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your example using Houston was spot on.

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the interest that i- that roughly

base 4% that's coming from

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insured part of their premiums

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Ethan Powell: So the base is coming

from just the collateral sitting,

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earning SOFR, and then that risk

premium is diverted premiums

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effectively from Houston in that example

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Ryan: Fantastic.

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So what are the benefits of cat bonds?

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What, what benefit do

they bring investors?

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Correlation reduced correlation,

or is it just higher yields?

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What are some of the benefits?

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Ethan Powell: Both of those.

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I would-- I think the lead

benefit is diversification, right?

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And I think you see a lot of alternative

income asset classes claim that, but

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what in the numbers is those asset

classes tend to become highly correlated

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during periods of market drawdown.

241

And that's ultimately because in

some form or fashion, they are,

242

you're assuming risk of credit risk,

either corporate or sovereign, right?

243

Equity market risk, rate risk, all of

these different risks that tend to become

244

highly correlated in periods where you

need that diversification the most.

245

And what's beautiful about

this asset class is you're

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assuming none of that, right?

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You're assuming catastrophic natural

disaster risk, which has nothing to do

248

with what's going on in Iran, what Warsh

does or doesn't say at the next meeting.

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A-and by the way, we're floating

rates, so it resets every three months.

250

Even if there is rate volatility you're

incorporating that relatively quickly.

251

It's-- The asset class has a very

low duration because of that.

252

So that's why-- first and

foremost, it's diversification.

253

But to your point, you have a floating

rate alternative income where, the nominal

254

coupon on our portfolio is a little

over eleven percent right now, right?

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So extremely juicy yield.

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And then if you look at that relative

to corporate bonds, these are

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basically triple B rated, so it's

a two to three hundred basis point

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premium over comparable quarter

credit risk on the corporate side.

259

So that's certainly appealing.

260

And then, yeah, the diversification.

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I think the correlation of this asset

class to high yield bonds, which is

262

the closest correlation, the highest

correlation, is still zero point zero one

263

so almost no correlation which is really

the bread and butter of the asset class.

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Ryan: Yeah,

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Ethan Powell: Yeah.

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Ryan: a very good point, Ethan,

because as we know, and you said

267

it, is when y- it hits the fan,

everybody's running to the exits.

268

I don't care if you're in something

that's, safe or perceived safe, like

269

Everybody's running to cash,

that's why correlations increase.

270

So you're exactly right.

271

Goods by, great example of a benefit

there of cap bonds, because like

272

you said, whether you like it or

not, correlations increase when

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you need diversification most,

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Ethan Powell: Yeah.

275

Yeah.

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Ryan: that

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Ethan Powell: this is the Adjusted

for Risk podcast, so you wanna…

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Ryan: We-- I love talking

about risk, Ethan.

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Whenever we can

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Ethan Powell: Yeah.

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Ryan: in risk,

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Ethan Powell: yep.

283

Ryan: I

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Ethan Powell: For sure

285

Ryan: So let's talk too about more about

risk, and you brought alternative bonds

286

or just alternative private credit.

287

of the biggest issues there that

we've realized is illiquidity or

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Risk.

289

We've realized that, yes, retail

investors, they love alternative

290

Or private credit.

291

Although we've realized in the

past year they need liquidity.

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Is-- How is liquidity catastrophic bonds?

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I- is there a big risk

there for liquidity?

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Ethan Powell: I, we…

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A, I'll just say cr- private credit,

we love private credit as well.

296

And for us, we think that it's

a huge growth corner of the

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global capital markets, in part

because banks con- increasingly

298

are pulling back on, on providing

creative and higher risk financing.

299

You see a lot of the data centers and

small to mi- middle market lending.

300

I think the problem we have as a

investing society is we say private

301

credit, and it really is two dozen

different types of credit and we

302

just throw it all in the same bucket.

303

And it tends to lead to frothy markets

and potentially lower underwriting

304

standards, which I think has led to

some of the liquidity issues over the

305

last year or so because it's a crowded

trade in certain corners, right?

306

A- as it relates to cat bonds,

'cause that wasn't your question,

307

my thoughts on private credit . But

as it relates to cat bonds, our

308

liquidity is really good, right?

309

So couple things I would point.

310

We're at $65 billion in the 144A cat bond

market, which is what we're investing in.

311

Our fund's $80 million, right?

312

Certainly sufficient liquidity.

313

I think we have 120 different

bonds in the portfolio.

314

We like to stay heavily diversified

without any overweights to

315

geographies or payrolls or sponsors.

316

We like to l- look and feel like

the broader market, basically.

317

But what we've seen is the…

318

we'll use our ETF liquidity

as a proxy, right?

319

'Cause that's the market's perception

of the underlying portfolio's liquidity.

320

And our trailing 30-day median

bid-ask spread is typically

321

10 basis points or less.

322

So extremely tight given the

non-correlated nature of this asset class.

323

It…

324

Because it's difficult to hedge, right?

325

You look at these ETF market makers,

they make a living off of making a lot of

326

markets high volume, but then ultimately

hedging whatever's on the balance sheet.

327

And how do you hedge a diversified

portfolio of earthquakes,

328

wildfires, hurricanes, windstorms?

329

There's no natural hedge against that.

330

And so despite that our ETF has

been tightly traded with pretty,

331

pretty good volumes as well.

332

I think we're 50,000 shares a day.

333

So I think that's a good

approximation for the underlying.

334

We're deploying capital.

335

A, a creation unit or two, we'll deploy

it in a day or two, which is good.

336

And we're very deliberate.

337

We use a sub-advisor, Kingridge Capital,

to actively manage the portfolio.

338

They've got, decades of

experience in this market.

339

But Ryan, as liquidity is

great until it's not, right?

340

Look at '08.

341

It's liquidity is ephemeral

in every asset class.

342

So I don't wanna make any forward-looking

statements, but I can tell you

343

our experience, it's been quite

strong and getting better too.

344

We're…

345

Yeah, the cat bond, the 144A

cat bond market is growing

346

at a 10 to 15% annual rate.

347

And we're hitting…

348

We just hit a new issuance

record last quarter.

349

It seems every quarter

we're hitting new records.

350

It's good, getting better

351

Ryan: Yeah.

352

So you have a lot of opportunities there.

353

Ethan Powell: Yes.

354

Ryan: not like it's limited.

355

Ethan Powell: No, that's right.

356

That's

357

Ryan: Fantastic.

358

Ethan Powell: right.

359

And the other thing, Ryan, if you

think about it, the 144A cat bond

360

market, that's 60 billion, but the

reinsurance market is 600 billion, right?

361

And that's really very comparable risks,

it's just packaged for institutions

362

on the reinsurance side, and then

when it comes down to the 144A, it

363

makes it a little more accessible.

364

So a ton of capacity and a ton

of players in the marketplace

365

to, pick up lowball bids in the

event that there's a huge pullback

366

Ryan: Yeah, great point.

367

And you've talked about

risks or the benefits, a lot

368

Up there.

369

The primary ones, like you said,

low correlation to the other primary

370

asset classes, the juicy yield.

371

We…

372

There's no free lunches, Ethan.

373

No free lunches in this space.

374

So what are some of the risks?

375

And you mentioned credit

risk, like with insurers.

376

I'm assuming that might be a risk even

though it's likely not gonna happen.

377

What are some risks out there

378

Ethan Powell: It's funny you say

that 'cause pre-'08 a lot of the cat

379

bonds were basically these, privately

negotiated bilateral agreements

380

with insurers and reinsurers.

381

And so in '08 a lot of people

got stung on counterparty risk

382

as insurers went under, right?

383

However, post '08 that 65 billion

that I'm quoting is fully cash

384

collateralized, so it's bankruptcy

remote, so truly no credit risk.

385

If you go into some of the more esoteric

sidecars, industry loss warrants, all

386

these other different insurance-linked

securities, yes, there's credit risk,

387

but not in, in the corner of cat

bond market that we're playing in.

388

But going back to your point on

risk the actuaries publi- publish

389

expected losses on each of the bonds.

390

So your average market expected

loss is something like 2.5%

391

to 3%.

392

However, if you look at

the actual results, it's…

393

typically it's under 50 basis

points of actual losses, right?

394

What that expected loss really

represents is actuarial assumptions

395

under, as we talked about, 100-year

flood type assumptions, right?

396

I like to look at what the

actual impairment rate has been,

397

and it's significantly lower.

398

But even if you look at the

expected loss rate of 2.5%,

399

the long-term high yield

bond default rate is 3.5%,

400

right?

401

That might be a good comp.

402

So still below high yield

bonds and very much below as

403

far as actual impairments go.

404

So that would be the risk is

of major natural disasters.

405

And then, if you've seen the movie

Armageddon, if something like that

406

happens, your, your cat bond portfolio

will get impaired pretty significantly.

407

But theoretically we'll all

have other things to worry about

408

Ryan: Yeah.

409

Exactly.

410

I've got a lot of things to worry about.

411

That one really isn't one,

Ethan, but it's lower on my list.

412

Ethan Powell: Yes.

413

Ryan: doesn't rise.

414

Hopefully it doesn't rise.

415

Ethan Powell: No, it's-- No shit

416

Ryan: And you mentioned it, so a lot…

417

You've compared cat bonds to the

high-yield bond space, bit there to

418

insurance-linked securities, ABSs.

419

Is there any other differences

you'd like to highlight between the

420

more, know, mainstream bond types?

421

Ethan Powell: I would love to get our

cat bond portfolio into an ABS because

422

there you're talking about really

structuring risk return appetite for

423

a broader set of potential investors.

424

And I think the non-correlated nature of

the asset class is well suited for an ABS.

425

Obviously with ABS you're

dealing with structural risk.

426

A lot of the risk is passed down to the

equity tranche and more junior tranches.

427

I think I mentioned on a relative,

generally the broader cat bond market

428

is viewed as sort of a triple B risk.

429

And so it's trading at a premium

to 2 to 300 basis point yield

430

premium to comparable credit risk.

431

Which I think is on a standalone

measure is very attractive.

432

But no, yeah, I think it's just a

very nuanced asset class and like I

433

said, it's an alternative and, you get

risk-adjusted returns because of the

434

intrinsic nature of the risk you're

assuming, not because you're expecting

435

the manager to, like a long-short equity

to go all short when the market's down

436

and all long when the market's up.

437

That takes a special kind of skill that I

don't think many people, if anyone, has.

438

And then you have a lot of these

structured s- sort of financial

439

engineering products like buffered

ETFs for example, that provide

440

some downside protection, but

they haven't really been tested.

441

This asset class has been tested

since inception of the Swiss Re index.

442

There's only been one down year, and

443

You're talking about a very

resilient asset class that yeah

444

that I think will continue to shine

during periods of market volatility

445

Ryan: Ethan, we could have a whole

conversation about buffer products,

446

and I'm so glad you brought that up.

447

And that, cat bonds, you can go

back, they've gone through historical

448

records through market cycles.

449

You can look back, see how they

performed during market cycles.

450

products, it's easy to launch

all these new products.

451

When markets keep ripping

higher, of course they look good.

452

see how they perform when we go

through a full market cycle and we're

453

down 20% and there's a bear market.

454

Ethan Powell: Yeah.

455

Yeah.

456

Ryan: seen there.

457

Glad

458

Ethan Powell: Yep.

459

Ryan: up.

460

Ethan Powell: Totally agree.

461

Yeah.

462

Ryan: another conversation.

463

So real quickly then, what role do

they play in investment portfolios?

464

Kind of the million-dollar question here.

465

Is it a core fixed income holding, or is

it something more of a thematical play?

466

Ethan Powell: Yeah, what we see advisors

how they position it within their

467

clients' portfolios primarily as a

satellite alternative income play, right?

468

We have some great charts speaking

of risk-adjusted return that the

469

risk-adjusted return of a otherwise

diversified portfolio, if you replace

470

bonds with it, it increases obviously

the return and the yield significantly

471

without impacting volatility or risk.

472

And then similarly with equity you can

significantly reduce the volatility

473

while not sacrificing return.

474

That's I think how a lot of

advisors position it as a

475

alternative income bond allocation.

476

But it's typically satellite.

477

I think your standard advisor isn't

gonna put 40% of their client's

478

portfolio in, in cat bonds.

479

But, certainly…

480

and we see it in a lot of model ETF

portfolios as well where they can

481

allocate a, a good chunk to it a- and

then get, in- investors in different ways.

482

And that's also how we see

our institutional accounts

483

allocating to it as well.

484

Non-correlated premium income allocation.

485

Ryan: Yeah, I think that's a very prudent

approach to that portfolio question.

486

So then lastly, you mentioned it earlier,

the ticker, but how can financial

487

advisors incorporate the investment

strategy in their clients' portfolios?

488

Where can they start?

489

Ethan Powell: Yeah.

490

We're traded as an ETF, so it's ticker

ILS for insurance-linked securities.

491

It's the Brookmont cat bond ETF.

492

We're on most brokerage and

open architecture platforms.

493

If you do work at a wirehouse, please

tell your home office to call us and

494

we're happy to get added there, too.

495

But we've had about a year

and a half of performance.

496

We've got 80 million in the portfolio

yeah, access it via ticker ILS.

497

And feel free to go…

498

We have ILS inve- or catbondinvesting.com,

499

which is an educational

site, and then ilsetf.com

500

is the ETF site

501

Ryan: Fantastic.

502

I went to those website.

503

Ethan, some people may disagree with

this, but I do a little bit of research

504

before jumping on these calls, so I did

go to the website to learn some more.

505

Great information.

506

Lot of good education there for

people that want a little bit more

507

information on the asset class.

508

So lastly, thank you so

much, Ethan, for coming on.

509

Really fun conversation, important

conversation, lot of great

510

insights, so I really appreciate it.

511

Ethan Powell: Thank you

512

Ryan: get more information

about Brookmont?

513

Ethan Powell: We also have a

advisor website brookmont.com

514

as well.

515

And there, there's info and

feel free to email if…

516

and, one of the things we pride

ourselves in being very accessible

517

because we recognize you can't turn

on CNBC and get your cat bond update.

518

If you wanna continue the conversation,

I really encourage you to reach out via

519

the website and we can schedule a call

520

Ryan: Fantastic.

521

Ethan, thank you again so much.

522

Fun conversation.

523

Stay cool down there in Dallas.

524

Hopefully you've got a pool.

525

Hopefully you got a pool to hang

out in with to have some cold

526

Ethan Powell: to visit

you in Tahoe though, so

527

Ryan: Yeah, it- s- I'll

take 75 degrees every day.

528

Ethan Powell: Oh yeah

529

Ryan: So don't feel bad for me, Ethan.

530

Ethan Powell: No, I won't.

531

It's 1:05 here, so that's fine.

532

Ryan: Yeah, there we go.

533

Awesome, Ethan.

534

Thank you, and thank you everyone

for listening to this episode.

535

You can watch all of our other episodes

on YouTube and Spotify and wherever

536

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537

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538

give us a follow on LinkedIn.

539

you very much and have a

great rest of your week