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The Culture of DEI With Kimb Massey
Episode 7 • 18th July 2023 • Communicate Like You Give A Damn • Kim Clark
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In this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn Kim Clark interviews her friend and Professor of RTVF at San Jose University, Kimb Massey. Kimb has taught media for half of her career and believes we are all part of a culture; family, vocational, fandom etc. Massey challenges us to think about our media consumption and pay attention to the fact that a lot of what we want is because the media tells us what we want. We must make sure our intention matches our impact and use our critical thinking skills in the discussion around the visibility of race in the mass media. It is not enough to be non-racist - we must be anti-racist. 

About The Guest:

Kimberly Massey, Ph.D. (she/her) is a Professor of Radio-Television-Film (RTVF) at San Jose State University. She is a tireless advocate for media reporting and representation of truth, fairness, and diversity, equity, inclusion. Dr. Massey has written numerous communication conference papers and published several communication articles, books, and book chapters.

Find Kimb Here:

LinkedIn

About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

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Transcripts

Kim Clark:

Yay. Hi, hi. Hi. This is a really special episode for

Kim Clark:

me. I have known Dr. Kimberly Massey for 30 years, right, like

Kim Clark:

the early 90s. Right? Yeah. And we have find found all kinds of

Kim Clark:

excuses to cross paths, personally and professionally.

Kim Clark:

And this is one of those opportunities where I can tap

Kim Clark:

into your great depth of knowledge as a full professor at

Kim Clark:

San Jose State University. And you contributed an article to

Kim Clark:

the book that I co authored the conscious communicator. We're

Kim Clark:

gonna get to that in just a second. But welcome, thank you

Kim Clark:

for being here. Tell it tell us tell everybody a little bit

Kim Clark:

about yourself.

Kimb Massey:

Well, I'm Kim Massey, I'm a professor at San

Kimb Massey:

Jose State, as Kim mentioned, and I'm Kim's professor. So

Kimb Massey:

that's really the biggest line on my resume. I've been studying

Kimb Massey:

the media thinking about the media and teaching Media and

Kimb Massey:

Culture my entire adult life. I studied as an undergrad at UT

Kimb Massey:

Austin and got my degree in radio television film there went

Kimb Massey:

on to San Francisco State to get a master's in broadcast

Kimb Massey:

education, communication, and then on my doctorate in

Kimb Massey:

Communication at the University of Utah. So literally my entire

Kimb Massey:

adult life, I've been talking about the media.

Kim Clark:

And you mentioned the media and culture. So what do

Kim Clark:

you mean by that? What relationship Are you are you

Kim Clark:

talking about that is super fascinating that you've

Kim Clark:

dedicated your whole career to?

Unknown:

Well, everybody belongs to culture. And there's a

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million different kinds of culture, whether you're aware of

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it or not, there's the culture of a family and what being a

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father means and a mother or a sister, brother, being a

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grandmother being a nurse. So there's vocational cultures,

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there's fandom, like, I'm a big steam fan. So there's a whole

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culture around stealing, and being a San Francisco Giants

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fan, or whatever. There's race, culture, nationalist culture,

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and any one of us all of us are. So there's an amalgam of all

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these different cultures, based upon where we grew up, or how

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old we are, or how we were raised, or what our belief

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system is, which party we vote for whatever it is, maybe we

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don't vote, that's also a culture. So it's a culture of

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physical realities, for example, you know, like, what we look

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like, and what wouldn't, where we live those sort of physical

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realities, but it's also constructed realities. And that

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is like, like being a fan or believing in God, or whatever it

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is, right? So the media more than anything else, on, you

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know, in all of the cultures all around the world, affects what

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those cultures are, whenever new ones come on the scene, and what

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they mean, they define the provide the definitions for what

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all of these cultures mean. And people will say, well, they

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don't do they're not the most powerful influence, but they

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really are the media that we consume, especially as

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Americans, we consume media more than we do anything else. We

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consume media more than we sleep, we consume media more

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than we have dinner with our families, more time than the

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time we spend with our families. So because we consume and engage

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in media so much, it is statistically impossible,

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especially with all the messages coming through the media over

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and over again, repetitively, the same messages over and over

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again, for us to not be affected by it. And the challenge is that

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everybody knows this, but nobody believes it. I've been talking

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about the same media effects and culture defining what culture is

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getting people to realize all the different cultures that they

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belong to, and how some of the cultural rules that they have to

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follow, they didn't even get to negotiate, especially in

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diversity, equity and inclusion. They didn't even get to

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negotiate what it is to be black, or to be seen as black by

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a white system or whatever it is, right. And even though I

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tell people you were all affected by media people, like

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Yeah, but not me so much. I mean, I know I am. So therefore,

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how effective can I be? And then I have to point out, you know,

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you're wearing a New York Giants or New York, Yankees hat and

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those are Nike shoes and you're dressed like a students wear

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What does that mean? What's appropriate clothing for women

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to wear, what's not appropriate clothing, you know all of this.

Unknown:

And all of a sudden, they begin to realize that they are

Unknown:

products of their own cultural upbringings.

Kim Clark:

There's a class that you and I have both taught. And

Kim Clark:

I know you're you're kind of fading into the sunset, as far

Kim Clark:

as your career is concerned as a professor, but I, I teaching

Kim Clark:

online now, but there's a class that both you and I have taught,

Kim Clark:

that is kind of a it's a GE level, I believe, and people,

Kim Clark:

you know, students from all different kinds of majors will

Kim Clark:

come in and take this media, it's basic, it's a basic media

Kim Clark:

criticism class, right? And a couple of the assignments that

Kim Clark:

some of SE th the sections, talk about one is, take a take note

Kim Clark:

of all the products that you've consumed in a day, just write

Kim Clark:

them all down, and for what purpose and like, what's the

Kim Clark:

brand? And then your analysis at the end of that is to say, Okay,

Kim Clark:

well, first, you're also supposed to figure out what your

Kim Clark:

culture group is. And so Asians don't have the introspection,

Kim Clark:

they actually don't know what the assignment is asking of

Kim Clark:

them. They've never been asked that question of what culture

Kim Clark:

group, they may go to race, they may go to religion, but they're

Kim Clark:

advertising in marketing people can, you know, figure out a

Kim Clark:

cultural group in a second, they can predict everything around

Kim Clark:

the products that that a particular cultural group will

Kim Clark:

gravitate towards? Right? That's the science of it. And then the

Kim Clark:

analysis is did do you see yourself being marketed to in

Kim Clark:

these products, that is one assignment, the following

Kim Clark:

assignment is taking an eye challenge, and invite any

Kim Clark:

audience member to do this for your own, you know, self

Kim Clark:

awareness, to take three days off from media, like take three

Kim Clark:

days off, we call it a media diet, and then see where your

Kim Clark:

time goes, when you're not scrolling on Instagram, for

Kim Clark:

example, when you're, you know, whatever it may be watching

Kim Clark:

things on YouTube, etc. And what I find interesting is this

Kim Clark:

relationship between those two assignments, what the last

Kim Clark:

question in the media diet assignment is around, Willie,

Kim Clark:

basically, will you return to your natural Yeah, insistency.

Unknown:

Right away, they will far and away, far away, they're

Unknown:

very interesting, not affected,

Kim Clark:

right. So there's, in those two assignments, were

Kim Clark:

trying to drill in critical thinking, right, and you know,

Kim Clark:

around exposure, and the normalization of media use and

Kim Clark:

the definition of their own cultural group, as defined, and

Kim Clark:

by media and advertising and stuff, and they still don't get

Kim Clark:

it.

Unknown:

What's interesting is that when it first came out,

Unknown:

when media, especially television was first invented,

Unknown:

there was a lot of concern about media effects, because we had

Unknown:

come out of World War Two. And because Hitler had done such an

Unknown:

incredible job of PR, right, he would stage these amazing epic

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events, and then put them as the sort of before the movie shorts

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with when you would go to the movie theater, and all of these

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sort of villages that were really remote. But go to

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everybody went to the movies on Saturday, we've seen these epic

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events, and we're believing like, oh, well, the whole

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country field believes this. So it must be like a good thing,

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you know? With Yes, a whole underground of exceptions. But

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you can see that why the concern existed is because if you can,

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if you can win the minds of the public mind, then you could

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actually start a war or take over the world, right? I mean,

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and that's just an understatement of what has

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actually happened, really. But now not so much. I mean, I think

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if you are feeding your children, and they want to eat

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ice cream all day long, you say to them, Well, yeah, we can have

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ice cream, but that's like a dessert. And that's, that's a

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special and really what we got to do is get to your broccoli,

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you know, we got to eat some vegetables and some

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micronutrients and all that and then we can have ice cream. But

Unknown:

when it comes to media, people don't seem to understand that

Unknown:

every minute that their kids are on, online or on they're

Unknown:

consuming, they're consuming something right and most of the

Unknown:

messages are put together to sell. Not just to sell you a

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product like lipstick or mascara or shampoo, but to sell you a

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meaning. right to sell you what it is to be a beautiful woman

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for example, Whoa. So so many of my students, whenever they write

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down, you know, everything they use from the time they wake up

Unknown:

to the time they step out the door for women a lot of its

Unknown:

makeup. And they have to write in Why do you use this? And they

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are and their responses are very candid, it makes me feel good.

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It makes me feel good to look good. And well, who wouldn't

Unknown:

feel good if they look good? But then I come back with a question

Unknown:

of why is having longer eyelashes attractive? Who to

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define that? Why is having whiter teeth, or straighter

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teeth, or pink cheeks? Or any of the other makeup? Things like

Unknown:

poreless? I mean, we are human beings, we have hair growing

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everywhere. And we have, you know, eyelashes that get thinner

Unknown:

when you get older and whatever it is. Why, who decided that? I

Unknown:

didn't get to negotiate that. I didn't. Nobody ever sat me down.

Unknown:

Whenever I was an agent said, Okay, we're taking a vote in

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your age group, you're 18. Now you can vote. What how fat can

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women be and still be attract? Nobody ever asked me. I was born

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into this. And this isn't being driven by people, people. This

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is being driven by people who are trying to sell products to

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make you believe that having short eyelashes is less

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attractive than if you had longer ones. And then you start

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using mascara. And then you the feedback is that people will go

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oh, she's you know, she's pretty attractive. And it brings you

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comfort, safety, satisfaction, and even pleasure from engaging

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in these activities. You know, I had a conversation with my

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daughter about monogamy. Right? And her generation think about

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monogamy differently than my generation. Of course they do. I

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mean, every generation is different. And she said, Well, I

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don't I don't really understand, you know, why, like monogamy

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after monogamy, because then if you get married or divorced, and

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you remarry you, you're really just a serial monogamist are

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like that. And I laughed. And I said, because it brings me

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pleasure. It brings me pleasure to think about only being with

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one person. And why is that? Because that's the way I was

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raised. Maybe if I had been raised in a different culture,

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where I don't know. But I that's what I always believed in. And

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so that's, you know, I like that, you know, I'm, you know,

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Tammy Wynette, stand by your man kind of, you know, and I fight

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it as a feminist. I'm like, I don't need it. And I don't. But

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whether I need it or not, is irrelevant to my actions,

Unknown:

because it's what do I want, and what you want, nine times out of

Unknown:

10, if not, 10 times out of 10 is based upon culture. And

Unknown:

unfortunately, for the DEI, portion of this conversation,

Unknown:

the media and the images and the definitions, and the

Unknown:

representations have been dominated by money. And by race.

Unknown:

You know, so the same stories are getting told over and over

Unknown:

again. Black stories that didn't involve blacks being maids and

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butlers and servants that help characters or, or sort of

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characters that were clowns, you know, they're there for the

Unknown:

entertainment of, of white people. That didn't happen until

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the African American community were seen as economically viable

Unknown:

people to market to, then all of a sudden, you had sitcoms that

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were directed to the black community dealing with, you

Unknown:

know, talking about black issues, then you had Bill Cosby

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being a doctor and his wife, a lawyer, then and only then when,

Unknown:

when the market was deemed economically viable to be spoken

Unknown:

to, then they got a chair at the table. Right.

Kim Clark:

And there's a lot of conversation over the last few

Kim Clark:

years and still to this day around digital blackface, for

Kim Clark:

example, the use of memes and GIFs, and everything, where it's

Kim Clark:

this exploitation, exploitation of black joy in a lot of ways,

Kim Clark:

but used by white people to seem cooler, etc. And so look it up

Kim Clark:

folks, you know, have the conversation, look at what

Kim Clark:

you're sharing on social and the cultural culture that you're a

Kim Clark:

part of, versus the culture that you're putting out there in a

Kim Clark:

digital space. And what's your intention with that? And I can

Kim Clark:

guarantee you that your intention is that matching the

Kim Clark:

impact does especially depending on the audience, so you

Kim Clark:

contributed an article, thank you for the millions time for

Kim Clark:

contributing this article to our book. And the deeper dive topic

Kim Clark:

is called the influence of stereotypes, right? Can you read

Kim Clark:

a little bit, the ending of your article there and then talk

Kim Clark:

about what you were trying to convey to those who read the

Kim Clark:

book?

Unknown:

Yeah, I'm going to start a little bit higher than

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the ending just a tiny bit. In the end, it isn't enough to hold

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media producers accountable, it comes down to what we as

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individual audience members, and groups do. The public needs to

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recognize that we have choices, but then we need to follow up by

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making good ones. If people choose to be passive consumers

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of media not questioning the meaning oriented meeting occurs,

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all of society must live with the adverse consequences and

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some more than others. Conversely, if people recognize

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their power and agency by becoming an active audience,

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member and or producer themselves, we can demand

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diverse content, we can strive for as many perspectives as

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possible. And we can question and develop our own

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interpretation of media content, based upon our life experience,

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our education, family and cultural influences, we can

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learn that the system doesn't work without us. If we back away

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the relationship and demands Dei, especially joined with many

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others, media will be forced to address our concerns and needs.

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And finally, we need to be diligently. We need to

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diligently monitor our consumption behaviors, be

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skeptical, engage in critical thinking, slow down, check and

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separate facts from opinion, and check the origin or context or

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purpose of all information, before we share it together. And

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only together, we can socially construct a better reality by

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making it true every time we engage with media and with each

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other. Yeah, that's the thing, you know, it's a, it is a I

Unknown:

mean, I always use the metaphor of a drug deal. It's a drug

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deal. You got a drug dealer with a product, that's the drug and

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somebody's buying it. And if there's no product, there's no

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exchange, right. And we are the product that has been bought and

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sold between media and advertisers media are getting us

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to the screens with content, whether it's a Netflix movie, or

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you know, a network television show or a series or YouTube

Unknown:

video or a meme or an Instagram post, whatever it is. They they

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drive us to the screens, they bring us to the screens, and

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then they hand us over with all of our demographic information

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to advertisers who custom build now, ads to appear on your

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social media or on your screens, or whatever. So if we remove

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ourselves as the product, the drug deal can't occur, right,

Unknown:

the exchange can't occur. So when we consume, we're present,

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and when we don't consume we aren't. And if we demand better

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quality, they will deliver it because if not their competitors

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will and we'll go to those screens. And my students are

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always like, but we're so we're just individuals, and these

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corporations are so big, and I'm like McDonald's sells salad.

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McDonald's sells salad. Now, if you had bet me a billion dollars

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in my lifetime, because McDonald's was invented in my

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lifetime, when I was a little girl, that McDonald's was ever

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going to sell a salad, I would have taken that bet and lost it.

Unknown:

Because people were like, We got to start like eating also green

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things we can't just be eating but you know, whatever. And all

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of a sudden McDonald's so salad. So we do have the power. They we

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just don't know it and they don't want us to know it. So the

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only thing I can think of to do is to educate people about their

Unknown:

own power, their own cultural power, their own consumptive

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power. And the more active we are and the more demanding we

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are, the more we're gonna get what we want. But if we don't

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ask, and we don't demand, they're gonna give us whatever

Unknown:

they think we deserve.

Kim Clark:

Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You

Kim Clark:

mentioned in the article critical thinking and social

Kim Clark:

construction. So so that social construction of reality is a

Kim Clark:

media theory.

Unknown:

Right? Can you speak to? It's my favorite one, right?

Kim Clark:

What's that?

Unknown:

It's my favorite media theory is my favorite

Kim Clark:

tale. Can you speak to how groups and populations

Kim Clark:

have been stereotyped? You know, you've mentioned some examples,

Kim Clark:

if you can add some more examples, and that narrative

Kim Clark:

that's being pushed, that's being normalized. And how that

Kim Clark:

relates to the theory of social, basically, what it what is

Kim Clark:

social construction of reality? And how does it show up? And

Kim Clark:

what role does media I mean, critical thinking play as an

Kim Clark:

antidote?

Unknown:

That's a great question. I feel Um, well,

Unknown:

social construction of reality is that reality is whatever we

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all agree it is. A good example, would be money, right? I go into

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a store and I hand somebody a piece of paper that's really

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made out of cloth that has special ink on it that the Fed

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printed. And that piece of paper is supposed to represent 100,

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pennies, four quarters, 10, dimes, whatever. And I'm

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supposed to be able to hand it to somebody and say, give me

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that food or whatever that candy bar, I'll take that candy bar,

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although nothing costs $1 anymore, but you get the point.

Unknown:

Right? And that person has to take the money legally, because

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it's legal tender. And we've all agreed that it used to represent

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gold in Fort Knox. But now I don't know what it represents.

Unknown:

Because it depends on the market, right? But we all agree

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that it does. So it could be seashells, it could be sunflower

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seeds, whatever we agree is worth money is worth trade, that

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and we all agreed and that's what it's going to be. And it's

Unknown:

the same with cultural stuff and with defining of groups. So if

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you have a stereotype, let's say an Asian stereotype, women,

Unknown:

Asian women are either completely virginal, right, or

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they're dragon ladies in their heads of cartels. They seem to

Unknown:

be stereotyped to have all these sexual secrets, you know, and

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all of this stuff, when when you and and you know, quiet and they

Unknown:

don't argue and they keep their heads down, they bow a lot.

Unknown:

These are all stereotypes, bad drivers, right? All of these are

Unknown:

stereotypes. Does that mean that there aren't some people that

Unknown:

are bad drivers? Yeah, but I've seen a lot of other bad drivers

Unknown:

from all walks of life, old, young, any race drivers can be

Unknown:

bad, right? So you get these stereotypes, and they go out

Unknown:

there, and then you meet an Asian person, person, and you're

Unknown:

not Asian, okay, you meet an Asian person. First of all, as a

Unknown:

white privilege person, I would meet an Asian person. And

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there's all kinds of cues coming at me before I ever open my

Unknown:

mouth and introduce myself. I'm looking at this Asian person.

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And I'm like, what kind of Asian person is this? Well, Asian

Unknown:

people will tell you that they can. They can tell the

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difference between eight different kinds of Asians but

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but Asians in the language are just sort of lumped under this

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category of Asian when there's all kinds of diversity going on

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different languages, different locations, same locations, but

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different languages, customs, traditions, food, the whole

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shebang. But they're all lumped inside this one category. So I

Unknown:

meet somebody new. And my son is a half Asian, my stepson, his

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half Asian, and it was fascinating, but terrible, at

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the same time to watch people engage him. Because they would

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say, Where's your mother, and be really mean to him. And he'd

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point to me, and I'm a white, blond woman. And he said, That's

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my mother. And then the whole story would change. The whole

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the way they treated him the way they thought about him. Oh,

Unknown:

you're so wonderful, Kim, you must have adopted a Chinese

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child. And I'd say I didn't adopt anybody. He's my stepson.

Unknown:

And he's Korean. Right? So these messages that come to you

Unknown:

through the media and the stories that are told over and

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over again, stereotypes that are given to you are some times

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oftentimes, the only experience a lot of people have of other.

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Right. So when they engage in with people that they don't have

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a lot of contact with, they already think that they

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understand who that person is. And and they have zero idea,

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because the stereotypes do not represent everyone in in

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different categories. They just they aren't there. They're short

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cut storytelling plots, because they only have 30 minutes to

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tell a story or an hour or an hour and a half, unless it's a

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mini series and then it's divided up into those amounts,

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right. So that's why the dumb woman is a busty blonde and

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that's why the serious woman is a bookish brunette. And that's

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why you know, Who are the judges? Who are the criminals?

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Who, who's smart, who's not, you know, older people are always

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sort of The Golden Girls. You know? People always, like older

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women are a little bit flighty and scattered. And I'm like, not

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be Arthur like, and she was, like plastic and biting and had

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an incredible sense of humor and wit, but I guess they're more

Unknown:

thinking about Betty White or something, I don't know. So the

Unknown:

stereotypes really make it terrible for and those are just

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funny little examples, little white privilege examples. I

Unknown:

mean, stereotypes can mean the difference between people having

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their partners in the room when they're hospitalized, making

Unknown:

life decisions for them and the LGBTQ plus coming community or

Unknown:

being able to buy a house in a neighborhood, if you're Jewish,

Unknown:

or if you're black, or if you're Latino or whatever, right, if

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you're a person that is not white privileged. So it's the it

Unknown:

isn't just Well, you shouldn't be watching that show. Because

Unknown:

it's really not good. No, you shouldn't be watching that show

Unknown:

because it perpetuates negative stereotypes that have real

Unknown:

consequence. for groups of people in really incredible

Unknown:

ways. You can also be white men, can I say for the record, it can

Unknown:

also be white men, which is I get a lot of pushback from my,

Unknown:

in my classes from white men going, Are we just going to be

Unknown:

the villains forever. So well, you're not necessarily always

Unknown:

the villains, but you are also affected. And shootings are the

Unknown:

era one of the best areas I can tell you. Especially school

Unknown:

shootings. If it were if it were young girls, or any person of

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color that's doing all the shootings, like if, if shooting

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after shooting after shooting the West Asian young boys, this

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country will be asking what is going on with Asian young boys,

Unknown:

that they're going into the schools and shooting people?

Unknown:

Right? If it was women think back to Thelma and Louise,

Unknown:

right? How many movies have you seen where men are just shooting

Unknown:

each other and killing each other and godfather and cop

Unknown:

shows and nobody seemed to care. But when two women did it in a

Unknown:

movie that was super popular? Oh my goodness, the media came out

Unknown:

saying you know what is what is up with? Like, why is everybody

Unknown:

watching this movie about these women shooting people? And I'm

Unknown:

like, because we've been watching men shoot people since

Unknown:

the cowboy and Indian movies. You know, from the start, what's

Unknown:

the big deal? If women were going in and shooting up?

Unknown:

Schools, they would say what is going on in America with these

Unknown:

little girls? What kind of crisis are we in? But it isn't

Unknown:

nobody's talking about the white young male crisis. And 99% of

Unknown:

all the school shootings are done by white boys, we should be

Unknown:

having that conversation. We should and I tell my white male

Unknown:

students, identifying male students at that I say this

Unknown:

would help you. A majority of crime that's committed in this

Unknown:

country is again is man on man cry. It's not man on women

Unknown:

crime. It's man on man crime. You know, men are dying at the

Unknown:

hands of other men. There is a crisis of masculinity in the

Unknown:

country, but we don't talk about it because they're the majority.

Unknown:

And they're and they're in charge. So they're the more

Unknown:

invisible under the critical lens. Right? When you think

Unknown:

minority when you think minority, you think woman or

Unknown:

person of color. Right? You don't think white male because

Unknown:

they're not a minority. Right? So they're invisible to the

Unknown:

lens, because we're talking about these issues of a hair of

Unknown:

the minorities when you think gender. What do you think LGBTQ

Unknown:

plus or women? But what you don't think is white

Unknown:

heterosexual male? Right? Well, they have a gender. So why

Unknown:

aren't we talking about that? Because white, almost white

Unknown:

heterosexual is not it is in charge. Right? So that that's

Unknown:

invisible. And white, white as a race is is more invisible.

Unknown:

Right? Because it's even though we talk about race if we talk

Unknown:

about race, critical race theory even but race, white, it doesn't

Unknown:

seem to be under the lens, right? And so anytime there's a

Unknown:

group that's invisible, as the No arm are the mainstream or

Unknown:

this is the way it should be, or everything's compared off of

Unknown:

that. That's when you know, who is the majority? And who is in

Unknown:

control? Because they're not under the critical lens? It's

Unknown:

very interesting.

Kim Clark:

Very interesting. Yeah. When you alluded to one of

Kim Clark:

the ways that I describe it to clients is, there's the founding

Kim Clark:

fathers of the United States, the characteristics of the

Kim Clark:

founding fathers, that is, that has been normalized as the

Kim Clark:

standard from which everything else is compared. Now, the

Kim Clark:

farther away you are, when you get into intersectionality, of

Kim Clark:

identities of marginalized identities, the farther away you

Kim Clark:

are from the Founding Fathers characteristics, the more

Kim Clark:

vulnerable and at risk and marginalized you are, because in

Kim Clark:

society, we have created this hierarchy of value based on

Kim Clark:

these identities in comparison to what is considered, you know,

Kim Clark:

the standard, the rideability. Very interesting.

Unknown:

It is very interesting, because I'm always asking that

Unknown:

question, when people bring up things to me, and they're

Unknown:

talking, you know, about whatever privilege or whatever.

Unknown:

And I'm always saying, Well, yeah, but we have to remember

Unknown:

that we're all in this together, that white males also have

Unknown:

gender and white males also have race and white males also, you

Unknown:

know, whatever. Somehow or another. I don't know how, but

Unknown:

you know, I think it goes in, in, in waves and troughs, up and

Unknown:

down, up and down, we have to convince people that it is in

Unknown:

their best interest. It is in everyone's best interest to

Unknown:

think about ramifications that affect all of us. I mean, global

Unknown:

warming is a perfect example of that in the in the planetary

Unknown:

realm, right? If you, if you're wasting stuff, and you're living

Unknown:

a less than ideal, recyclable life, or whatever, it's the

Unknown:

tipping point, everybody needs to get in this together, because

Unknown:

we're all in it together. But if the privileged whoever they are,

Unknown:

they could be white, they could be whatever, if the privilege

Unknown:

but just realize that it'd be hooves, you. And I thought the

Unknown:

pandemic was going to do it. I'm such a Pollyanna. Sometimes I

Unknown:

thought this was gonna be it. When would people realize that

Unknown:

we all deserve health care? Because if we all deserve health

Unknown:

care, it's safer for all of us, right? If everybody has access

Unknown:

to testing, and masks and whatever, you know, if you

Unknown:

believe in it, this shots or you know, whatever, what are they

Unknown:

called? vaccination? Yeah, vaccinations would have, if it's

Unknown:

free, if everybody can get medical help, and it's in it's

Unknown:

available, because that should be a right. I mean, that should

Unknown:

be a privilege, not a privilege, it should be a right, everybody

Unknown:

should have health care, it makes the whole, all of us

Unknown:

healthier. And so that's healthier for me too, as a

Unknown:

privileged person who will interact with people. I just

Unknown:

thought that pandemic was going to do it. I don't, I mean, I

Unknown:

think it moved the needle a little bit, but I'm just

Unknown:

wondering if it's going to move back, it is to everyone's

Unknown:

advantage is just trying to convince the people in charge

Unknown:

and the people with the money and the people with the

Unknown:

privilege, that you are so rich, that if you just gave up a

Unknown:

little bit more on your taxes, it would make the whole situate

Unknown:

your roads would also be better. Your I mean, everything would be

Unknown:

better, and you're still gonna be rich. You know what I mean? I

Unknown:

have this conversation a lot with with wealthy people. I'm

Unknown:

like, where do you put your money? Like, what is your? What

Unknown:

is your why I don't have to? And I said, I know you don't have

Unknown:

to? I mean, nobody's requiring it in the law or anything. But

Unknown:

where why wouldn't you? I don't know. You know, and we're given

Unknown:

these statistics all the time, like the richest five people, or

Unknown:

the richest two people or something could stop, you know,

Unknown:

child hunger. And I'm like, wow, well, let's do that. And they

Unknown:

would still be rich, they have so much money, they can't spend

Unknown:

it all, they at all. Now, they're not enough minutes in

Unknown:

the day. So

Kim Clark:

we're not going to get into it. But I have seen

Kim Clark:

some kind of futurists that are talking about with the with AI

Kim Clark:

and the capabilities of AI that there will be trillionaires out

Kim Clark:

of it. So I actually want to have a part two with you.

Kim Clark:

There's more that I'd like to ask you and have a conversation

Kim Clark:

about as it relates to what we were just talking about. I think

Kim Clark:

we pick up where we left off. There's more to be said around

Kim Clark:

this the power of communications language visual representation,

Kim Clark:

as it relates to diversity, equity inclusion, so I'll end

Kim Clark:

this part. This first part of the conversation with you on

Kim Clark:

this question. Have what is to you? And in your experience,

Kim Clark:

what does communicating like you give a damn look like or feel

Kim Clark:

like or experience?

Unknown:

I think it's, it's you have to not be afraid you have

Unknown:

to be not, you have to not be afraid to not be afraid. And be

Unknown:

ready. And I really do. I'm really proud of you, I have to

Unknown:

say, even though I have nothing to do with this work that you're

Unknown:

doing, but it's really, I'm very proud that a student of mine

Unknown:

wrote a book like the fine art of not saying stupid shit, I

Unknown:

cannot tell you how thrilled I am. And I am doing the work

Unknown:

myself. And it's that stopping and thinking before you open

Unknown:

your mouth. And in your book, you provide the depth model,

Unknown:

like so that to give, here's a way to think about it. And then

Unknown:

it becomes second nature after you do it two or three times.

Unknown:

Absolutely. And even still, I make mistakes. I probably have

Unknown:

made a couple on this interview. But like, in the past, I may not

Unknown:

have done this interview, because it's so you know, you

Unknown:

can make a mistake, but I'm okay with making mistakes, because

Unknown:

I'm willing to apologize, learn whatever lesson I couldn't have

Unknown:

known because of who I am, and my position and being a

Unknown:

privileged person and whatever. But now I do. And I will never

Unknown:

make that mistake again, right. And so I feel like it's just

Unknown:

getting over this idea that everything has to be perfect, we

Unknown:

are all imperfectly perfect. And understanding that everything we

Unknown:

do, the way we live our lives, the way we talk to our children,

Unknown:

the way we drive our cars, everything that we do, affects

Unknown:

other people. And if you keep that in mind, and you're

Unknown:

compassionate to yourself, and say, I made a mistake, but I

Unknown:

know I'm trying, and I'm going to try to make up for that

Unknown:

mistake and just keep moving forward. It makes it better for

Unknown:

you, it makes it better for the world. And that's what we all

Unknown:

have to do. Because one person doing it or a small group doing

Unknown:

if you just delegate your Dei, sort of, well, there's there's a

Unknown:

group out there that does that. You know, or exactly, or if like

Unknown:

Black Lives Matter, or LGBTQ plus, it's like, well, you know,

Unknown:

they they're gonna do that little they're gonna go out and

Unknown:

they're gonna protest about whatever. Like they're doing

Unknown:

that not Oh, you know, no, no, no, you have to participate and

Unknown:

engage and understand, because taking rights away from one

Unknown:

group affects all of the groups. Right. And it has ramifications

Unknown:

for for everyone. And so I think that sort of thinking outside of

Unknown:

yourself and not being afraid, is is sort of the key to the

Unknown:

whole kingdom. That's just that's been my experience.

Unknown:

Because otherwise, it's just, you know, it's, it's meaningless

Unknown:

if other people don't, if only LGBTQ plus people. Well, it's in

Unknown:

the black in the black civil rights movement, if only black

Unknown:

people had demanded rights, and no white people had said, yeah,

Unknown:

that's wrong, they, you know, that needs to happen. It may not

Unknown:

have happened. It's when people really, you know, stop being

Unknown:

afraid and understand that now, is not taking anything away from

Unknown:

you, it is adding to all of us. And don't be afraid to have that

Unknown:

opinion, express that opinion and have difficult conversations

Unknown:

about it. It's exhausting.

Kim Clark:

As, as a gay woman, I would not have been able to

Kim Clark:

legally marry without straight people without heterosexual

Kim Clark:

people. You know, making it legal. Right? We couldn't have

Kim Clark:

done it on our own. Yeah, let's vote,

Unknown:

you know, let's vote let's all of us get together and

Unknown:

partner and vote. You know, and, but I also believe, you know,

Unknown:

that cuts across all political areas, you know, I think that

Unknown:

gun legislation should be had but still, if people want to own

Unknown:

guns, there's got to be some kind of a legal way for that to

Unknown:

happen or that's better for all of us instead of the way it is

Unknown:

right now. Which is no good for any of us. Anybody can be shot

Unknown:

now. Right? I mean, you doesn't matter you can be in a mall in

Unknown:

Texas, which just happened and

Kim Clark:

and you're from Texas, and well, yes, I am in

Kim Clark:

part two. Because I think your your upbringing really informs

Kim Clark:

who you are today. You saw some stuff, you met some people and

Kim Clark:

so and then You know, all the work that you've done all the

Kim Clark:

awards, the published books that you've done the papers, etc. And

Kim Clark:

all of it is, is coming from this, this, this passion that

Kim Clark:

you have for this work that I think we would all benefit

Kim Clark:

learning more about and hearing more about. So we'll have a part

Kim Clark:

two, how can I find you and stay in touch with you?

Unknown:

Um, I, you can always go to San Jose State University

Unknown:

and my email is there. It's Kim with a b.masse@sjsu.edu. That's

Unknown:

really the best way to get in touch with me.

Kim Clark:

Excellent. Well, I look forward to continuing the

Kim Clark:

conversation. I really appreciate your time. And thank

Kim Clark:

you again for that contribution in the book.

Unknown:

Hey, it was honored to be asked, I have to say and it's

Unknown:

also honored to have a conversation with you, I really

Unknown:

do believe in the work that you're doing. And I think you

Unknown:

are so smart. And and I am really grateful that You have

Unknown:

given me a tool that I am now using to have very difficult

Unknown:

conversations about Dei, in a variety of situations, not the

Unknown:

very least of which is with other white people. White

Unknown:

privilege. People just say we need to be talking about this

Unknown:

even if we're not in the presence of a situation that's

Unknown:

demanding it we should be talking about it and and and

Unknown:

it's given me a way to do that. And so I'm really grateful for

Unknown:

it.

Kim Clark:

Yeah, it's not enough to be not racist, right. We must

Kim Clark:

be anti Oh, you know, is a white person's social construction of

Kim Clark:

reality. Yep. So thank you.

Unknown:

All right. Okay, take your time. Thank you.

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