Shownotes
In this episode of Good Enough Counsellors, I’m joined by Sharon May, founder of Kingsclere Counselling Service.
Sharon shares her inspiring journey from working alone in a single upstairs room on her family farm to building a thriving group practice of 14 therapists. We talk about the moment she took the leap to expand (far earlier than she expected), and how she weathered the pandemic just as her practice had begun to grow.
But this episode is about more than business. Sharon opens up about imposter syndrome, trusting her gut, and how her values help her navigate big decisions. She also talks about doing a Masters in psychotherapy — and the research that followed into the mental health of farm wives, which led to her being awarded a prestigious Nuffield scholarship to study the topic around the world.
Takeaways:
- That having courage means experiencing fear, too
- What Sharon learned from running a team
- The importance of being value-led to grow a counselling service that’s rooted in community
- What Sharon's research reveals about the hidden emotional burden carried by women in agriculture
- Why imposter syndrome often means you’re doing better than you think
Whether you’re building a private practice, exploring a niche, or just wondering what your next step might be, this conversation is packed with honesty, insight and encouragement for all those people who secretly think they're not good enough.
Connect with Sharon via her website HERE. She'd love to hear from you if you're interested in rural mental health issues or have farming experience.
Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE
Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE
You can also find me here:
The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group
Josephine Hughes on Facebook
Josephine Hughes on YouTube
My website: josephinehughes.com
Keywords:
courage, mental health, counselling, private practice, therapy, overcoming fear, farmer mental health, group practice, professional development, imposter syndrome, vulnerability, agricultural mental health, therapist collaboration, personal growth, work-life balance
The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.
Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.
Transcripts
Courage is a really interesting word for me as well, because I think people mistake courage for just feeling like you can do anything. And that's not courage for me.
You can only have courage when you're scared, because actually it's when you're scared and when you're feeling vulnerable, whatever you do then is courageous because it's being in that place and still doing something and still kind of going, okay, I'll take a deep breath and I try it. And it might not work. But, yeah, that's courage. It's about, you can't have it without being scared.
Josephine Hughes: p this morning. We go back to:That's when Sharon came into my world. And there's quite a lot that's happened to her since. So that's why I wanted to get Sharon on. You'll hear as we go along.
There's sort of several reasons why I wanted you to hear from Sharon, but I think the main thing is the way Sharon's just grasped the nettle of so many opportunities. And even though it's quite scary, she's actually really made things happen. And that's really the core of why I wanted her to be here today.
So welcome, Sharon. It's lovely to have you here.
Sharon May:Oh, well, thank you for having me.
Sharon May:That's all right. So tell us first a little bit about your therapy work.
Sharon May: Finished my training back in: tice since. Since then. Since: Sharon May:Wow. Wow.
So tell us what happened when you started your private practice and tell us a little bit about your setup, because it's quite sort of unusual, I think, compared some people would think of as a. As a sort of private practice in terms of where you work and everything.
Sharon May:Yeah, I guess you have to kind of go back a bit. So my previous career, I was sports injury therapist.
I worked in sports rehabilitation, and I did that in the private sector, but as part of multidisciplinary clinics. So I would work with physios, masseuses, podiatrists, chiropractors, that sort of thing.
And I really liked that working environment where everyone was bringing something individual, but it was kind of coherent as a team. And when it came to retraining, to be a counselor. I was very conscious that I wanted to be self employed because I'm. I like the control.
Not so sure I'm good at working for other people. But I also knew that I didn't particularly want to be out on my own. I didn't want to feel isolated in my work.
And I always had this kind of vision of creating a similar sort of environment but with a counseling focus.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And so I always kind of had that somewhere. Off to the future, I suppose.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:But had to start the same way everyone else starts in kind of drumming up private practice, setting up a website, that sort of thing, which is how I came to find you, because I was looking for support with that initially when I first qualified.
Sharon May:Yeah. So tell us something about where you work.
Sharon May:I work on our family farm. So my husband is a fourth generation farmer in North Hampshire.
We are probably 45 minutes west of London between Newbury and Basingstoke and we have a farm that straddles quite a major road. We have various buildings used for various things on that site.
And when I started my private practice, I had a little office just above the farm office where I would see my clients, my business. Now there's a little tiny cottage that was right on the side of the road and is now in that cottage. So there. It's a. It's a bit bigger now. There's.
There's four therapy rooms.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And a group space.
Sharon May:And tell us about who's using the therapy rooms and how that works.
Sharon May:So I started when I was in the little one room office. I started to get more inquiries than I was able to see because I was only working school hours and that sort of thing.
And initially I put out an advert for some other therapists to share that space. I had a few replies, which was lovely.
And I got a little team together and then when we had the opportunity to move into a bigger premises, I was able to take on more people to share the space that I've got. There's now 14 of us.
Sharon May:Oh, wow, that's a lot.
Sharon May:All with different focuses, always slightly different specialisms. But all counsellors.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:Some people do only a few hours a week, some people do quite a lot of hours a week, but we share that space and we're kind of.
Sharon May:A little group together because as I remember it. So when you came to me, it was sort of like at that point where you were about to expand into having a team, weren't you?
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:Tell us about what that was like because I know that was you Said that was on your like wish list. But what was it actually like, making it happen?
Sharon May:It was a, a bit like a runaway train.
nine. That was the summer of: Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And I had, I'd, I'd come to you because I was like, I don't know how to do this, I don't know where to go with this. And I remember being utterly, utterly terrified. It's probably the only way to put it. I was, yeah.
It felt bigger than I had anticipated and it felt earlier than I had anticipated and it felt like it was kind of driving me rather than the other way around.
But with your encouragement I'd sort of lent in and put out that first advert which was the scary moment, the hitting send of like, what if no one's going to want to come and work with me? What if they think it's a ridiculous idea? What if it turns around and bites me in the bum? You know, all that sort of stuff.
What if I haven't thought about something that then, you know, catches me out? All that sort of stuff. And I sent out that advert and I had so many responses from really, really lovely people that wanted to come and work.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:In a similar way to me. And that blew my mind. And then it's just kind of been a kind of snowball ever since. Yeah.
Sharon May: well. That was summer, autumn: Sharon May:Yes.
Sharon May:And you're talking about a face to face service here, aren't you?
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah.
Sharon May:So tell people what it was like.
Sharon May:So I think, I think I'd got, I think I'd got maybe I'd got three people on board initially to share the space and that had kind of kicked off over the summer and then I just collected a four therapist kind of autumn time and we were really finding our feet and it was really beginning to feel like, oh, okay, this is kind of a cool thing. And I also took a six week break myself and went on a sort of big kind of life changing holiday with my family, which was great.
And whilst I was on holiday this cottage became available and it was like, do you want to expand? And I was like, oh again, this feels sooner than I'd anticipated. Bigger than I'd anticipated. You know, I'm a one room thing.
When I talk about four rooms, like, how am I ever going to do that? That's. That feels massive. But having learned from the experience of the first one, I lent in and went, yeah, no, I can do this. So that was.
That was January: Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:Just as we got back from our holiday as well. And I was kind of like, so I'd this extra and kind of stepped out of that comfort zone again.
And then we went into lockdown and it was like, oh, now what?
Sharon May:Like, yeah.
Sharon May:And we forget, don't we, when we look back on that period.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:How little we knew when it happened. Like now we can look back with hindsight and kind of go, oh, well, you know, that was never gonna happen or whatever. But at the time we knew nothing.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And I suddenly gone from providing face to face support for clients myself to not being able to do that because I also had three small children at home who needed homeschooling. I was married to a farmer who couldn't help with homeschooling because just as we went into lockdown, the farm got really busy and he wasn't there.
So I was juggling all the same stuff that everyone else was whilst trying to support my clients and whilst trying to support the therapists who were working with me and saying, well, what do I do? Is this, you know, can I use the space? Can I not use the space? You know, well, I can't afford to pay you any rent because I haven't got any clients.
And it just. Yeah, yeah, it blew up big time.
Sharon May:Yeah. How did you get through?
Sharon May:That's a good question. One step at a time. Yeah, One step at a time. Like, no one knew what was around the corner.
They kept changing the guidelines, they kept changing the regulations. Could we sit face to face with masks on? Could we not. Could we be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just awful.
And the only thing you can do is what you can do with the information you've got at the time.
And yeah, I think the really key thing for me was I just kept talking to my team and I hope they felt that in their response in the sense that they'd keep asking me questions and sometimes I just have to go, I don't know, let's figure this out together.
Because I'm running a business, you're running a business, and we're trying to do this together and it's kind of got to have a middle ground that works for us and our clients and. And all that. Sort of stuff. And. And, you know, we. Again, we forget how different people responded to the pandemic differently.
So clients responded differently. Some were like, well, I'll come anyway, it's all a load of rubbish. And others were like, well, I'm not leaving the house. I've got vulnerable people.
And there were others who were homeschooling.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:But the same was true with my therapist too. You know, some of them were kind of fairly blase about the whole thing.
Some people were ultra cautious, and that was absolutely fine because none of us knew what was going on. But trying to balance everyone's needs in that mix was tough, but I think they appreciated that. I didn't know what I was doing in that moment either.
It was just a case of, we've just got to figure this out together. And that's where having people together with us was really useful, because we weren't on our own in that. We were. We had each other.
Sharon May:Yeah. Interesting aspect of it because, as I remember it, you had to really take a financial hit as well, didn't you?
Because, yes, obviously you were having to pay the rent on the cottage and I couldn't.
Sharon May:I couldn't charge room rent to people who weren't using the room.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:So I lost massive amounts of client income as well, because, you know, quite understandably, clients went, you know, well, I can't.
Sharon May:Can't come. Yeah.
Sharon May:It does help that I'm married to the landlord, so it wasn't like I had some big, nasty landlord breathing down my neck. I didn't. But again, it's that kind of layer upon layer upon layer, isn't it? Yeah, it was like, well, then there needs to be a negotiation there.
And then, you know, there's.
Sharon May:That's not easy, actually, you know, because it's sort of like a personal and a business relationship, isn't it? So that. That can be fraught with difficulty.
Sharon May:He was never going to chuck me out, though, was he? Yeah.
Sharon May:So helpful from that point of view.
Sharon May:But probably as well from that point of view, but, you know, it's. It's the farm business as well as. Yeah, you know, it's just. Yeah, there was layers and layers.
Sharon May:Yeah. There's a business aspect to it as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, just. It's just. Just difficult to navigate, I would have thought.
Sharon May:So it was really tough. And there was trying to think about that on top of worrying about my older parents trying to manage the kids, you know, all that sort of stuff.
You know, just trying to queue for food, you know, all that all that rubbish that was going on at the same time, just like I didn't particularly need the worry of that on top. But at the same time it actually made the decision making process easier in a way because I couldn't devote hours and hours of agonizing to it.
It's like I've just got to make a decision.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And, and gut instinct came into it sometimes.
And I know we talked about certain scenarios where I was like, well, I feel like I should do this or I feel like I should do that and, but I don't want to and actually it doesn't feel in line with my values and that sort of stuff. And it was like actually just bring it back to that every time. Just bring it back to the values.
Make the decision based on that and you'll figure out the rest later somehow. And you know, I was fortunate in the financial position I was in. We weren't relying on my income to keep your roof above our head, for example.
So that took the pressure off a bit. But yeah, yeah, it wasn't easy.
Sharon May:But I was going to say, it's still your baby, it's still your business. And you know, you'd taken this big step, hadn't you, to write, okay, I'll commit to having a building.
And that in itself, you know, it's easy to look back on that and think, oh yeah, you know, I took on a building, but that's a huge step, isn't it, to find the courage to do something like that and for then to be hit with months of lockdown.
Sharon May:Yeah. And I think, I think that was the kind of. We just didn't know what the future was going to look like.
We didn't know how long we were going to be in lockdown. I think by the time we went into the third one, we were like, is this ever going to end?
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And you know, we all shifted to working online as best we could. And I was still using the office for that because I couldn't do online work at home with the kids around.
So I was, I was kind of using that space for that.
But I think we just didn't know whether clients would ever want to go back to Face to Face or if I didn't know if the therapist that worked with me would ever want to go back to Face to Face because they might have just got perfectly happy working online and yeah. Set up their own space. And so I was like, well, was this business a bad idea in the first place? Maybe it's all going to fall apart like we just.
Just didn't know. And it was. It was a good lesson in sitting in the unknown. I suppose I could say that with a laugh now. It wasn't fun at the time.
Sharon May:No, no.
But I guess that sort of helped you in a way to cope with sort of challenges afterwards as well, with further challenges that you faced as you've grown and developed since that time.
Sharon May:I think it's taught me to trust my gut. There's a lot of different ways of running a business.
I think it's taught me that actually the way I want to do it might not be the way everyone wants to do it, and it may not be the way that makes the most money or grows the business as the quickest, but it's the way that feels right for me and it's the way that feels right for my team. And I've learned to really stick with that.
You know, when we did get back up and running again, it would have been very easy for me to just kind of rent out bums on seats and just work at filling all the hours that my practice could do as quickly as possible, because that would make me more money, it would make the business better, more successful. But for me, it was much more about the team. It was much more about actually, do we work as a unit? Are we offering a cohesive thing as a practice?
Because it matters to me, the service that the clients are getting.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And it. It's hard when it's not you delivering the therapy all the time because you're having to trust the team. Right.
But the team then have to trust me that I'm doing the best by them too, which I hope they do.
Sharon May:But, yeah, it's letting go of control, isn't it, from what you're saying that. Yeah, to a certain extent.
Sharon May:I mean, obviously keeping enough, I think is. It's keeping enough control that it doesn't get lost like the, The.
Sharon May:The sort of ethos of the sense.
Sharon May:Yeah, I was gonna say message, but that. That wasn't it either. But yeah, those core values, I guess that. So I have my core values, but I also have my business's core values and it's.
It's making sure they don't get lost in the noise, I suppose. So it's keeping enough control. But I. Quite keen that I'm. That my therapists are autonomous and, you know, have. Have the control over their work.
I'm not going to tell them how to practice or how they do their. Their work. I'm trusting them in that. But then they Trust me and in what I'm offering them, I guess.
Sharon May:Yeah. And the sort of values that you bring to the business. Yeah.
Because it is sort of like it's your baby, it's Sharon's, it's Kings, Clare Counseling, isn't it? So, you know, it's a business that you created and yet to a certain extent, you're letting go of some of it through.
Because they're the people delivering therapy to a lot of the clients.
Sharon May:Yeah. And that's. That's a big thing to hand over.
You know, at the end of the day, it's my name above the door, you know, it's my business's reputation and I don't tell people how to practice. I trust that they're aligned enough with me and ethos that I. They're going to keep that name the way I want it to.
But my reputation is in the hands of 15 other people.
Sharon May:Yeah, it's in the hands of the team. Yeah. I think you were quite sort of aware of those values, though, weren't you, when you were actually recruiting team members?
And I think that your values sort of shaped you sort of felt the people that you recruited to work with you were people who could align with those values.
Sharon May:Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, I think. Yes, I hope so. I think it's the quickest way to answer that.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:Yeah, I hope so. Again, it's that kind of gut instinct thing, I think, talking to people and kind of, are you a good fit for us?
Are you, you know, are we a good fit for you? That sort of thing. And then it's trusting that kind of instinct a little bit.
Sharon May:Yeah. So tell us a bit about how the team, you know, I think you've been quite careful about filling gaps, haven't you?
So tell us about the sort of different sort of team members, but different roles.
Sharon May:Yeah, we. I've been quite careful. I feel like I have to manage supply versus demand. I don't want clients phoning up and not being able to see a therapist.
So, yeah, it's important for me that there's enough therapists there offering enough hours that local people can get the support they need when they need it.
But similarly, I don't want therapists sitting there sort of twiddling their thumbs, paying rent and not seeing clients, because that doesn't feel fair either. So it's kind of that constant balance between enough space and not too much space.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And again, I don't want 14 therapists all the same because that doesn't help the clients and that doesn't help the sort of team aspect of it, because then it feels a bit more like you're in competition with each other rather than working together.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:So I suppose it's kind of curating the right team. It's kind of collecting the right people and. And making sure we've got a little bit of everything.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:So that my. My kind of.
My mission statement, if you like, is that if someone picks up the phone to us or sends us an email, no matter what they're struggling with, there's someone who can help them.
Sharon May:Fantastic.
Sharon May:And so we have a variety of specialisms. You know, we've.
We've got three therapists that work with couples, we've got three or four therapists that work with children and young people, we've got family therapists, so we can see all sorts of people, but we've got different specialisms from gambling addiction, we've got a creative therapist, we've got people who specialize in postnatal. We've just been joined by a lovely lady, Jenny, who's doing adult ADHD assessments and treatments.
So, yeah, we've kind of got that kind of element of trying to provide anything that could be needed, I suppose.
Sharon May:Yeah.
It's just reminded me because you very kindly asked me to come along and do a presentation for one of your sort of CPD evenings, and I came along to talk about marketing.
And the thing that blew me away was most of the therapists that you're working with actually didn't need very many more clients because they were getting enough through the service. And that's often something that, you know, is the biggest problem for people is getting enough clients, isn't it?
And I think with you, that you actually handle the inquiries, don't you? Is that. Is that right, that people come through you to reach the clients, they reach the counsellors, yes.
Sharon May:So there's. There's. There's a variety of ways that clients can access us, so they can either sort of do it themselves.
So they log on the website, they can see all the therapists, they can read a bit about them, and then they can email that therapist directly once they've got an idea of who it is they want to see.
If they don't know who it is they want to see, or they're not sure how it works, then they tend to email or phone in to the practice, and then I try and pair them up with the appropriate person, depending on sort of specialism or availability or, you know, times when they can make appointments that sort of Stuff, So I do sort of act as a bit of a funnel to try and help people.
But, yeah, I think I've got to the point where rather than particularly get more therapists on board, I'm much more keen to grow the therapists I've got, help them grow, you know, so that if they're only doing a few hours a week, you know, maybe they want another day, but everyone's portfolio working, so people have other jobs in other sectors, you know, working for charities or completely different jobs altogether, you know, that sort of thing. So it's quite nice that they can be there as much or as little as they want.
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah. It must be fantastic to have that sense of teamwork as well, because I think that's often something when we're working private practice.
It can feel really lonely, can't it, that sense of being on your own. And it sort of sounds like that's something that you really worked to avoid right from the get go, really.
Sharon May:Yeah. It's harder as we're bigger because, you know, we can't.
We can't ever get everyone in the same room at the same time, which is a bit of a shame because I would like that to happen. But, you know, we're busy people with busy lives and it just never quite happens. But I think. I think some.
There's something about just being able to cross over with another therapist in the kitchen between clients and just being able to pull a face and that person know exactly what sort of day you're having. I think there's just something in that that just makes you feel less alone. Do you know what I mean?
Sharon May:Yeah, definitely.
Sharon May:Someone else gets it.
Sharon May:Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I used to work in a practice where we all rented rooms and those sort of passing in the kitchen sort of moments are really always really lovely. It's nice to have someone you can. Who gets it. Like you say, who really gets it.
Sharon May:It.
Sharon May:And one of the things I remember that you showed me was when you first sort of sat down to plan out your practice, you actually filled in a little notebook, didn't you? Do you remember that?
Sharon May:Yeah, I did, yeah. Yes, I did. I did a. What did I do? I did a one year. There were four spaces, aren't there? So there was.
Oh, yeah, there was one one year from now, five years from now, ten years from now.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And retirement, I think. And I kind of put the things that I wanted to happen to happen in each of those sections and I think I got. I achieved my five year in three.
Sharon May:Yeah, that's What I was remembering. Yeah, was you showing me this lovely, lovely plan. And you said, well, actually, I've already got there.
Well, what do you think helped you to be able to, you know, achieve that plan so quick? To me, who.
Sharon May:I'm quite a thinker, so I tend to think a lot before I do anything.
I know when we spoke about me first taking people alongside me, I spent a lot of time kind of just figuring out finances and numbers and just trying to work out, you know, is it better to employ people directly? Is it better for clients to pay me and then me to play therapists? Is it better to rent rooms? Is it better for therapists to charge what they like?
You know, all that sort of stuff. And I tend to think things through, maybe overthink sometimes, but I tend to think things through quite carefully.
So, yeah, I try to be prepared, but then I think it's.
You can't prepare for everything, and it's just kind of leaning into those scary moments and not standing in your own way, which is really tempting because we've talked a lot about imposter syndrome, and imposter syndrome was my constant companion for probably those first. Well, probably still is a bit different reasons now, but for those first five years, for sure, it was sat on my shoulder the entire time.
But actually, I think it was you.
I quote you all the time on this because you said to me, the imposter syndrome, you think it's about what other people are expecting of you, but actually it shows up when you're exceeding your own expectations of yourself, when you're doing better than you think you could. And that has changed my life.
That one kind of reframing of it has just meant, oh, I'm really nervous about this, and feeling like I don't fit because I never thought I could do this. And actually this is what I wanted to do. So let's just get up with it. So, yeah, it's.
hrough that kind of period in:It taught me that, you know, I can think things through all I like, but there's some stuff coming down the track that you are never going to see in advance. And you've just got to learn to.
To adapt and change and just pivot and go where it takes you next, and fingers crossed that you get to where you're going. So.
Sharon May:So you sort of, like, learned to take the leap, really.
Sharon May:Yeah. It doesn't make it easy, though. Does it? No, I have done it and I've done it on a couple of occasions.
Sharon May:Oh, quite a few, Sharon. I'd say more than a couple occasions.
Sharon May:Yeah, but I don't like that feeling when you're featuring on the edge. I'm not a fan of that. Kind of like, do I jump? Do I not jump?
And there's always that thing of, well, it's worked every time, but what if this time it doesn't you.
Sharon May:But what I was thinking about was, I think, you know, one of the conversations we had was when you were trying to decide whether or not to do your Masters, because you applied, didn't you? And then you got the place and then you had to actually decide, do I do this?
And can you remember what, what sort of like was holding you back from making that decision about doing a Master's?
Sharon May:There was a lot of things I was worried about. I was worried about. I mean, it's a lot of money, but yeah, you know, this education isn't cheap, is it? Yeah, it was a lot of money.
I was worried about the workload, especially.
Sharon May:If you had quite small children.
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah, the kids. I was worried about taking on more stuff when I was already, I was hitting perimenopause at the same time. So I had that element going on.
I was already overwhelmed and quite stressed. And why on earth was I thinking of pushing myself further?
I was worried about whether it would actually achieve anything for me, you know, like, why was I trying to. It was I just collecting bits of paper? Was this an attempt to feel some sort of validation to combat the imposter syndrome? Was it? Why was I doing it?
Would it be better to go for accreditation? I know we had that conversation backwards and forwards quite a lot. You know, what am I trying to achieve?
Why am I trying to get additional qualifications? What is it that I want? Do my clients really care whether I've got a master's or not?
You know, all that sort of stuff that was going around in my head and there was a lot of reasons not to do it. The reasons to do it were just that I wanted to.
Sharon May:You wanted to.
Sharon May:I just wanted to. Like, I wanted to learn more. I wanted to. I wanted to feel like I was stepping forward.
Like I said, I'd kind of got that five year old thing ticked in three and I was kind of at the, well, now what? What's the next bit? What's the next stage?
Sharon May:And I think, you know, it sounds like, you know, you could almost have embark on something like that where you did not knowing where it was going to go. But natural fact would be lovely to hear a bit more about where it's taken you as a result of actually taking the leap.
So you followed your heart effectively. That's what you're saying, isn't it? You. You leaned into. Into doing the Masters.
Sharon May:I leaned into it and I think there was. There was. It was still a validation point for me. I think I'd always felt like I'd wanted to get that higher level of qualification.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:To prove to myself that I could do it and that, you know, all those sorts of things. I looked at the bar spa, Masters in counseling and psychotherapy practice, and that seemed to fit well for me because it was a.
It was distance learning. So I went and did the. I went to. Did the Masters and my independent study was on farming and mental health because it's a big issue.
Mental health in agriculture is poor for lots and lots and lots of reasons.
And then when it came to writing my dissertation, I chose to focus on the mental health of farm wives because it became apparent that all the literature in agriculture tended to focus on the farmer, understandably. But there was this big group of people that were sort of sliding under the radar.
And also from my personal experience and the networks that I'm in, I could see that it was definitely a prevalent issue. So I wrote a research paper on that that went quite well.
Sharon May:Tell us what you mean when you say it went quite well.
Sharon May:Well, I aimed to do a qualitative piece of research where I would interview a few farm wives. And in order to understand what I needed to ask, I put out a questionnaire which asked quite a lot of questions about mental health for.
For those who are married or. Or partnered with farmers.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And I was hoping so for sort of. Sort of 12, 15 responses to that. And I got over 450.
Sharon May:Oh, gosh. So you don't have to do something. 450.
Sharon May:And the last question on the paper, on the, on the questionnaire was, is there anything else you'd like the researcher to know? And I think I had well over 300 people write something in that box. And some people just put a sentence, other people just wrote me paragraphs.
And a lot of it was, we feel really glad that someone's noticed us. We. This is a really big thing for us. We're so grateful you're doing this research. And, yeah, lots of. Lots of really powerful information.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:Which was brilliant. And so I wrote my paper, which I'm very proud of, and then got to that. What Next position again.
You know, I felt like I had all this information and all this knowledge. I didn't really know how to share it or what to do with it.
Sharon May:Sort of like in a sense the dissertation itself didn't communicate enough of what you needed.
Sharon May:Well, it was like, because this is a dissertation, no one's going to sit there and read my dissertation because it's 16,000 words and it's not that exciting. But they might read the findings. But then it was like, what do I do with these findings? How do I use this? What is it going to.
How's it going to inform me? Which direction is it going to send me in? I am hoping to publish it so I'm currently working on editing it for that, which is quite a task.
But yeah, I knew of a situation called the Nuffield Farming Scholarships and they take a cohort of people in agriculture every year and they are sponsored by various other organizations within the industry to study a topic that will benefit agriculture and come back and present it to the industry.
So yeah, I applied for that because I was basically, I was reaching the upper age limit so that the cutoff is 45 and I was getting there and I was like, well, I've got one shot at this. I might as well apply and see what happens. So I applied and was interviewed in the autumn last year and then was awarded a scholarship.
So I am now studying the topic of supporting the mental health of farming families with a view to presenting that back to the agricultural industry with my counseling and psychotherapy hats on.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And the benefit of sort of my knowledge and my background in order to bring something back to the agricultural industry that will hopefully help support farming families in the future. So that feels like I'm now doing something with that research.
Sharon May:Amazing, amazing. And it's not just farming families in the uk, is it?
Sharon May:No, no.
So my sponsors are the Farming Community Network which is a big UK charity and they were donated to some money from another organization called Lenslight which was set up by the Eden family following the death of their son by suicide. And they wanted to sort of raise the awareness of the issues around mental health and agriculture.
So they donated some money to FCN and FCN said, oh, we're going to put this into a Nuffield Scholar, which is me. So I'm working with them and I'm traveling all around the world talking to. Because I mean agriculture is an industry in every country in the world.
Yeah, the struggles are different but very similar across the world.
So I'm seeing what I can learn from other countries that I can then bring back and help with providing information that will help those families in the uk. Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon May:So this is another thing that you've had to lean into, isn't it?
Sharon May:So, yeah, another big scary. Another big, scary leap. I see. Weirdly, the application process didn't feel that scary because it was just filling in a form.
The scary bit was when they actually said, we'd like to offer you. I was like, oh, okay.
Sharon May:Because, I mean, the bits I've seen is sort of like you trying to find people across the world, isn't it? So you went to Australia recently, didn't you?
Sharon May:So, yeah, I've just come back from an amazing trip to Australia. For me, I'm trying to understand it from all sides. So I'm trying to speak to those in the research areas.
Yeah, so those who are finding out more about these issues and the support and that sort of stuff, those who deliver the support, so those charities, individuals, organizations that provide support to those in agriculture.
But then I'm also trying to get an idea from the boots on the ground in agriculture in those countries to see what's missing, what's working, what's not working.
So I'm kind of trying to take this sort of tripod approach to seeing all those components work, to see what happens and what we can learn from that here in the uk.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Because, I mean, I think it might be really helpful at this point for people who perhaps are more urban, fair enough, to hear about the mental health farmers, because I know, you know, through my.
I'm really, really lucky in that I meet a lot of different therapists and I've got therapists who are in rural areas who are actually really passionate about this subject and the huge impact on mental health of things like foot and mouth, for example. I spoke to someone who worked in Department of Agriculture at that time and just saying it was just terrible.
Sharon May:I think there's quite a lot of generational trauma from that still, that sort of period in the 90s, which was, you know, really catastrophic for a lot of people. Yeah, it's still echoing. I think currently it's very, very hard to make a living purely from agriculture at the moment.
So there's a lot of financial strain which, you know, everyone is feeling. I'm not pretending that's. That's just relevant to farming at all. But the.
The thing with farming is when your workplace is your home and your home is your workplace and you've invested a lot in it and. And there's that risk Always that if the business folds. Who are you? What are you? Where are you?
Sharon May:Yeah. You lose your home as well.
Sharon May:It's a very, very vulnerable place to be. You then add things like extreme weather events into the mix.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:It only takes flooding, a drought, fire, any of those things that can sort of happen which are completely out of your control. You know, you can prepare for them as best as you can, but they're still.
Sharon May:Once they're there.
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then you add in sort of changes, policy changes to regulation.
We've seen with the recent change in government that things have changed very quickly, very fast, and haven't necessarily given people the time to adapt to them.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And then you add in sort of things like. I mean, the press doesn't help in terms of, you know, the. The messages that are being broadcast about farming and farmers and things like that. And.
And I'm not saying farmers are perfect because they're not. I'm not saying they don't always help themselves, but there is that element of, you know, there's. There's an unhelpful kind of stereotype.
Sharon May:Stereotypes.
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the stereotype doesn't help either when it comes to seeking mental health support. So farmers are very independent.
They're often isolated, sort of. They can be geographically isolated, from miles away from anywhere. They might be working on their own a lot of the time.
They can be culturally isolated. So, you know, we're in commuter belt, so very few people that live around me actually have any input in agriculture. They don't.
You know, they all commute into the nearest town or into London.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:So that can leave people feeling sort of quite culturally isolated. And so there's this kind of need to be independent, to just keep. Get your head down, keep going. They work ridiculous hours.
They keep going until the tank is empty, and then they can't, or sometimes struggle to get over that sort of masculinized idea of I need to just to. That's the thing. They're strong. They're strong. They used to do it themselves.
And when they reach that point where they crack, they don't know how to ask for help, how to reach out.
Sharon May:Because the suicide rates are quite high.
Sharon May:Suicide rates are really high.
I'm a bit conflicted about the suicide statistics because it's really useful to show just how prevalent mental health issues are in farming, because that's a higher in agriculture than a lot of other professions.
But I feel like it misses the mark a little bit because it doesn't talk about all those People who are just struggling day on day and it doesn't talk about all the people that contemplated it, but never, never actually. And I think it's a useful headline statistic because it gets people's attention but it's massively missing the actual scale of the problem.
And I think they struggle to reach for help, they struggle to know where to turn for help. The rural provision isn't there.
It's a lot easier for someone to access counsel, they're in a town than it is in a rural environment and they might be able to do it remotely. Now post Covid that, you know, that's more of a thing, but sort of computer literacy, particularly amongst older farmers, is, is low.
You then add into a really high prevalence of neurodiversity and that sort of stuff in agriculture, so that it all plays in to sort of make this perfect storm of difficulty in coping with things outside their control and when it really starts to get difficult, what to do about it.
Yeah, and interestingly, you know that when we talk about the stereotypes, the stereotype of the farm wife, you know, particularly, or women in agriculture is that they support and that I think 2/3 of them work on far unpaid alongside their career or the jobs off farm.
They're supporting financially, they're supporting emotionally, they're supporting practically, they're looking after the kids, they're doing all the school runs, you know, during lambing, they're feeding the extra staff, you know, all this sort of stuff. They're looking after quite often their in laws as well. So you know, there's, there's this kind of thing of support.
So there's this, when it, when they start to struggle, they're battling against their stereotype of like, but if I fall apart, everyone else is going to fall apart. And so there's kind of unhelpful stereotypes in both camps. And I know that's like a really heteronormative kind of farmer and his wife example, but.
And you know, there are lots of amazing women farmers out there too, but they're kind of taking it from both ends and then you add in hormones and all the rest of it and the perimenopause and you know, all that sort of stuff. And it's, it's just, it's just this perfect melting pot of trickiness when support isn't necessarily always there.
Sharon May:And is it, is it really difficult to reach people, do you think? Because, I don't know, it's, it's sort of like you say, it's, it feels almost as though Counseling is quite an urban thing, really, like you say.
And I just sort of wonder how easy it is to sort of, you know, to be able to help people know that counseling is a. An opportunity or a possibility. I suppose the word is.
Sharon May:I think. I think. Yes, yes, That's a short answer. I think.
I think reaching people is difficult geographically and culturally, because they're not used to seeking support from health professionals, full stop. If a farmer turns up at A and E, you know, it's bad.
Sharon May:Yeah, right.
Sharon May:And I think the same is true if a farmer reaches out to you and you're a mental health service. They're not doing that on a whim, you know, it's. It's serious.
I think there's a slight inherent distrust of health services generally, which doesn't help either. And I think, unfortunately, because.
Because it's such a sort of unique cultural thing, when people do reach out and they're met with someone who just doesn't get it.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:It puts them off and they don't try again. So they might say, oh, you know, I spoke to my GP and told him I was depressed and he told me to take a day off.
Yeah, you know, I'm milking twice, I can't take a day off, you know, or, you know, I started seeing a therapist and they were great, but they didn't understand, you know, the complexities of feeling the burden of four generations sitting on your shoulder. You know, I don't want to be the one the farm collapses under, you know.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:It's just finding people with that knowledge. Ground knowledge is quite tricky.
Sharon May:Yeah, I think so.
I'm just sort of thinking, I do have, obviously, councillors who I work with who come from farming families, and so using that knowledge that they've got, if.
Sharon May:There'S any out there listening, I want to hear from them.
Sharon May:Oh, really?
Sharon May:Yes. Oh, yes, yes. Any therapists out there who are working in mental health and have sort of lived agricultural experience, I'd like to hear from them.
Sharon May:So, you know, I have come across several counsellors who, you know, have come from that rural background and who are interested in working in that field. But again, it's sort of how to reach people, really, which is part of it is difficult.
Sharon May:It is difficult. And I think it's not just about the therapy. That's not the answer to the problem.
Like, there does need to be therapeutic help available for those that require it. But I think it's more prevention, it's more community support, it's more that sort of thing that needs to Kick in first.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:But then if people get to that stage, it's important that they get the help they need.
Sharon May:Yeah. Because it's a sort of mix, isn't it, between the sort of traditional community and what is quite traditional field of work, agriculture.
You know, we've always had agriculture, haven't we, versus, you know, the 21st century and all the stresses and strains that. That come with being alive in the sort of world we're living in.
Sharon May:Yeah.
And I think, you know, that when I'm looking at farm families in particular, sort of the wider family unit, and they talk about financial press pressures and the financial crisis, farm families are both users, they're consumers and producers.
So they're kind of squeezed at both ends because the price they're paying for their food that they're buying in is higher, the price they're getting for the product they're producing is lower. And so it's this kind of. Yeah, they're getting squeezed both ends of the market, I think.
Sharon May:Yeah. So, yeah. Where do you think this is going to go next?
You know, once you've done your nuffield scholarship, have you any ideas where it might take you next?
Sharon May:The analogy I'm using at the moment is my brain feels a bit like a box of fireworks that I've just kind of put a match underneath and it's shooting off in all directions. I have lots of ideas. How practical or applicable those ideas are are yet to be established. I've still got a fair amount of traveling to do.
Off to the US in June, US and Canada, and then Sweden and Norway in September and hopefully Zimbabwe in October. So I've still got a bit more investigation to do, but my mind is already wearing from. From the first stage. So. Yeah, yeah, I think there's lots of.
I want to do something that's. That's as good as I can.
Sharon May:Yeah, but you don't know how it's going to shape up yet. But I think so.
Coming back to what you said earlier, and it really did stand out to me was the fact that your values shape the decisions you make and that you do come back to your values again and again, don't you? That they sort of help to shape your journey. And I think that's.
That's sort of one of the things that's really stood out about what we've been talking about is that sense of you leaning on your values.
Sharon May:Yeah, I think that, you know, and that's only come from personal therapy during my training, you know, and since then, you know, I'M still in therapy now, every now and again, as we all are.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:They haven't changed, but they've probably evolved a little bit and I like knowing that they're there. I think they provide me with that sort of core that I can move from. I'm linking back to the physical stuff. You know, sports injury stuff dies hard.
But it's like, is that if your core is strong then you can do the other stuff right? And it feels like the values need to be in that centre.
Sharon May:That's a great analogy. Yeah. You know, yeah, really great analogy. And do you think that's what's helped you ultimately with making these big leaps?
Because, you know, part of the reason why I wanted to bring you into the interview is because I've just seen so much in the time that I've known you, so much growth and I.
Sharon May:Think it's quite scary, isn't it? I don't know if it. I don't know if it's even so much consciously checking against my core values.
It's just when it feels wrong, that's the bit I'm listening to.
Sharon May:Yeah. You get that gut feeling.
Sharon May:Yeah. But it's like when it doesn't sit right, why isn't it sitting right?
And yeah, and quite often it's because I'm trying to make a decision based on someone else's values at that point or I'm trying to fit with someone else's expectations or not mine.
And yeah, and time and time again when I'm sitting in that discomfort and I'm like, this doesn't feel, you know, why am I struggling with this decision? Or why don't I want to do this? That's what it tends to come down to is, hang on a minute, this isn't mine. I'm trying to think this is.
This is allied to someone else. Which doesn't say there isn't compromise sometimes.
Sharon May:No.
Sharon May:But I think just understanding that that's why it feels wrong. But yeah, that's why it feels wrong.
Sharon May:Yeah. I want to come in with a lovely bit of theory here because that's so person centered, isn't it? It's that internal locus.
Sharon May:Yeah, absolutely. And it is.
And, and I love the word dissonance, but it's such a great expression because you know in your body before you know in your mind, why, why that it's not right.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:But then you kind of need to get your mind on board because, you know, doubt has a habit of masquerading as. As dissonance, as does imposter syndrome, you know, all that stuff. It has a habit of kind of showing up and going, well, you know, this is.
This doesn't feel right. Why doesn't this feel right? And it's.
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah.
Sharon May:So taking it against those things.
Sharon May:So I think what you're saying is sort of like, you can have doubts, but the doubts aren't actually necessarily the dissonance that might be the imposter syndrome.
Sharon May:And it's.
Sharon May:It's being able to tell the difference between what really doesn't feel true for you and what is just like, oh, my God, this is frightening. And I'm not quite sure I want to do it.
Sharon May:Yeah. And I'm. I'm kind of.
Courage is a really interesting word for me as well, because I think people mistake courage for just feeling like you can do anything and feeling really brave and just being able to tackle everything head on. That's not courage for me. Courage is. You can only have courage when you're scared.
Because actually it's when you're scared and when you're feeling vulnerable and when you're feeling a little bit lost, whatever you do then is courageous because it's being in that place and still doing something and still kind of going, okay, I'll take a deep breath and I try it. And it might not work. But that's courage. Yeah, that's courage. It's about, you can't have it without being scared.
Sharon May:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. I think we often think that, you know, courage is the absence of fear, but it's. It's not. It's actually feeling the fear.
You know, do we get it anyway?
Sharon May:Yeah, but it's a quote for you.
Sharon May:It is. It is brilliant that she stole everything when she wrote that, that book, didn't she?
Sharon May:But it is. It is that. It's like you can't. You can't have courage if you're scared and sometimes you're terrified and. Yeah, that's okay, too.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:You know.
Sharon May: n she first qualified back in: Sharon May:I'm aware of sounding like a hypocrite in my head, because I was going to say something, I was like, do I still believe? Like, okay, I think I would say, trust yourself. If you screw up, it's okay. Just adapt. Like nothing is perm.
Well, there's very few decisions in Life that are permanent. And that's something I cling to quite a lot. You know, if you make a decision and it goes, Pete Tong, unmake it.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:Like, okay, you might lose something, you might lose a bit of pride, you might lose a bit of money, you might lose, like. But it's. It's never permanent.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:So, you know, you could. You can change your mind again.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:And actually, the thing that tends to get in the way of that is, for me, pride. No one likes to admit they're wrong or that they make a mistake, really.
And that's why I slightly felt like a hypocrite as I was thinking that was because. Because I was thinking, well, I'm still not very good at making mistakes, but actually, I think I don't like making them. But if I've.
If it hasn't gone well, it's like, okay, well, now what?
Sharon May:Yeah, you can. You can still do something.
Sharon May:Yeah. Even now, what is a big thing for me, I think, you know. Yeah, it's okay. So I did it.
It didn't go the way I wanted it to, you know, process all the stuff that goes with that, which is, you know, frustration, disappointment, feeling like a failure, you know, all that sort of stuff. Now what. What am I going to do about it? Can I do anything about it?
If I can't do anything about it, that's okay too, you know, it's that sort of thing. So I think it. I think it boils down to trust yourself and don't worry, you can always change it.
Sharon May:Yeah, that's brilliant.
And I think that that would really encourage the listeners, actually, because I think a lot of us can stand on one side of a big decision and be frightened to make it because what if it doesn't work out?
And so knowing that, actually, you know, like you did with your masters, you went for it because you wanted to do it, to sort of enable people to do it because they.
Sharon May:But I could have stopped, like.
Sharon May:Yeah.
Sharon May:If I'd got a year in and it was too much and I couldn't juggle it and the family and the business or, you know, I hated it, or I could have stopped. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like. I think I get hung up on the fact that these decisions feel enormous because they feel permanent.
And it's like, well, actually, I could have changed my mind.
Sharon May:Oh, I think it's fantastic because, as I say, I've just seen this sort of huge growth and, you know, seen from a.
The sort of development of your practice and your business and your research now, it's so exciting to see that happening and it's going to be really exciting to see where it goes. So if the podcast continues, it might have you back in a while, back.
Sharon May:In a few years time and see.
Sharon May:What I'm doing now, find out where it's gone.
Sharon May:I'll be intrigued to see where I am. Maybe I should write down a prediction there and see if it comes true.
Sharon May:So people want to get in touch with you. What's the best way of them getting in touch with you?
Sharon May:So possibly the best if It's I'm on LinkedIn, you can find me quite easily on LinkedIn. That's probably a good way to get in touch with me.
The business is kingsleercounsellingservice.co.uk so they can get me via the website or they can find them on socials, but I'm not as prolific as I should be on there.
Sharon May:So. LinkedIn or via the website.
Sharon May:LinkedIn or via my website. It's fine, you can email me off the website. Yeah, it's really fun.
Sharon May:That's brilliant. Thank you.
Sharon, thank you so much for coming and sharing because it's been really interesting and lots to think about there in terms of, you know, the sort of needs of people in agriculture as well. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you so much.
Sharon May:You're very welcome. It's been fun.
Sharon May:Thanks for listening. Do come and join my Facebook community. Good enough. Counsellors.
And for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please Visit my website, JosephineHughes.com if you found this episode helpful, I'd love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app. And in closing, I'd love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream. I really believe you can do it. It.
