Our guest did not start out with the intention of building a medicinal herb import company. It started out as a way to solve his own problems with sourcing herbs. And as is often the case, one thing lead to another.

In this episode we take a look at some of the common concerns practitioners have about herb quality, issues surrounding the use of pesticides, heavy metals and sulfur. Additionally we discuss how the concerns of Western herbalists has to some degree changed the herb market and growing practices in China. 

In the later part of the show we explore the use of granulated formulas. Explain why the 5:1 concentration that most products tout is misleading. Why crafting formulas and dosing granules is not the same as dosing raw herbs because granules are a fundamentally different medium of delivering herbs.  And finally,  how we can begin to think about dosing this herbal product that is fairly new on the Chinese herbal medicine scene.

If herbal medicine is part of your practice, you'll want to listen in to this conversation!

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold itself

separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our medicine

did not grow out of Petri dish experimentation or double-blind studies.

It arose from observing nature and our part in it.

Chinese medicine evolves not from the examination of debt structures, but

rather from living systems with their complex mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to qiological.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues, pertinent

to practitioners and students of Chinese medicine, dialogue and discussion have

always been elemental to Chinese medicine.

Listen into these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding in the modern clinic

Hello everybody.

Welcome to chia logical podcasts.

My guest today is Andy Ellis.

Andy is an author and a translator.

Some of his works include the fundamentals of Chinese

acupuncture and grasping the wind.

He did some great work in the second edition of formulas and

strategies from Eastland press.

And he's one of the co translators of the recently released a walk along the river.

That's uh, we did a show with, uh, Michael Fitzgerald show

number three earlier this year.

Uh, more on that book.

In addition, Andy is a translator and he also runs spring wind herbs.

And I am in particular looking forward to our conversation today

as Andy has a lot of experience with the various concerns around

contamination and quality and safety of herbs that us practitioners have.

And that is the subject of our conversation today.

Andy, welcome to chilada.

Uh, hi, Michael.

Nice to talk with you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm really happy to have you here.

So I'd like to start with just a little bit of background and

how is it that you found yourself starting up an herb company?

You know, I know entrepreneurs are often looking to solve a problem of some sort.

Was there some kind of issue or trying to scratch or some kind

of draw that led you into, uh, importing and selling Chinese herbs?

Well, it would be a really nice answer to that question.

If I had some overall plan about my life and how it was going to go

and that actually planned what was going to happen, but that doesn't

seem to be the way life works.

Uh, no, it was really quite, quite an accident that I

started to Springwood herbs.

I had gotten a job in, uh, in San Francisco at one of the acupuncture calls.

And this was back in 1991 or two, somewhere in there.

And, uh, you know, I don't know how they do these days, but at

that time they didn't pay their teachers particularly well.

And, uh, and so I could not survive on, uh, on the, on the pay from, uh,

just teaching or herbs at the college, which it was a great experience,

but, uh, didn't, didn't even pay my rent and put rice in the rice bowl.

Exactly.

So, uh, I decided I would start a little, uh, herb company and, uh, it

was basically a, um, an herb shop.

It was not what we have today.

It was, uh, there was an earth shop that, uh, my, my students could come

in and fill their formulas and I could, uh, treat my patients as well.

Uh, so it was, uh, it was, uh, it was a matter of convenience at that point.

So there was nothing, there was, I had no ethical, uh, you know, Some, some

major goal that I wanted to occur.

You know, you started it really for your own convenience.

This is true.

And, and also hopefully to make it a little bit of money to supplement what I

was making, teaching and seeing patients.

And so it wasn't until much later, actually probably about a year or so

into having the Eric shop that we started to grow as a, as an ERB distributor.

And this happened because of two, uh, two things that we discovered

you need a lot more background for, uh, to understand it completely.

But I think I can, I can give you a good idea.

So, uh, well, what happened was that, uh, we discovered that the herbs

that, uh, that were buying from the local importers, uh, that a number

of the herbs were incorrect species.

According to what I had seen when I was in China and Taiwan, And so I began to

pay a lot of attention to that issue.

And the other issue had to do with a couple of years later, we

began to discover that, uh, that pesticide residues, that many

of them had pesticide residues.

And there was also the issue of, uh, of sulfur contamination.

So those three things kind of, uh, push us in a direction, uh, that I really

had could not have intended because I wasn't aware of the, of the issues

right before I got to the business.

So often the case with so many things, you know, we start off with something

and as we go, we find out more or there's challenges that come up or

there's questions that come up and then it just leads into something we never

could have imagined from the album.

Well sure.

You know, when you sell Chinese herbs, you're selling herbs to, to patients.

These were for my patients and for my family and for my friends and my friends,

patients, and that kind of thing.

So I didn't want to be selling stuff that, uh, that wasn't pure or, you

know, or that had some issues with it.

And so, uh, then that's what sort of drove me into changing, changing into

being a distributor because there was no one, uh, at that time, uh, doing

what we thought needed to be done.

So it was a way of pushing the industry in a direction.

Although I have to say, I mean, it really, it was pretty selfish.

I just really wanted to have good herbs, uh, so that I could use

them myself and with my patients.

And like I said, for my, my students patients and that kind of thing.

So that's how we became spring wind as a, as a company that people know, you

know, because at that point we were just a small, uh, a small workshop.

Right.

So you mentioned that.

You know, back in those early days, you began to become aware of, of

the pesticides with the herbs.

So it's pesticides, always an issue, or is that something

that has changed over the years?

Well, it's a good question.

And I'm not sure I know the, I can get to the actual truth of it, but I

can tell you that we started testing herbs, I would say in 1993 or 94.

So that's really early on.

Yeah.

Yeah, we did.

I mean, at that point, you know, it cost in those days it was

like four or $500 to do the test.

So what we would do is we take three herbs, uh, two together and test them all.

And if anything came up, then we'd have to test, you know, then we'd

have to start testing in one at a time because it was too expensive

to test them one herb at a time.

Eventually of course, that changed.

And now we just want her at a time.

But, uh, so we started doing.

And at that time, we were only testing the commonly used herbs.

There were two reasons for that one is because we couldn't afford anything else.

And secondly was because we figured that the herbs that were going to be

subject to pesticide contamination or the ones that were grown, not

the herbs that were wildcrafted.

So a great many of the less commonly used herbs that were just wildcrafted.

And we figured they probably were okay, but things like Dunway and Bonci and

fooling, we figured we'd better test.

And so, uh, because they were, they were pretty much all grown, very seldom

wildcrafted and uh, in those days.

And so what we used to find was that we would find large

amounts of pesticides on certain.

And it was pretty much the same herbs all the time.

We'd find, you know, they, they would have the same pesticides and, uh,

but that changed as time went by.

We began to find more and more pesticides on, uh, on herbs,

but the amounts were less.

And so, and then you go all the way to today where, um, they have,

after they put in the, the, uh, good agricultural practices in China.

And we found that the number of herbs actually increased a lot.

We have a lot more herbs that have pesticides, but the

amounts are much are much less.

So there was more conscious, uh, application of the, uh, of the

pesticides and also a wider application.

It sounds like.

Yes.

And they use a lot more, a lot more.

And, and, and we start to see a lot less of stuff that we used to see.

Like we used to see DDT and, and its metabolites, but we

don't see those so much anymore.

Occasionally we'll find something with that data, but now more of the modern, the

modern pesticides are much more common.

Yeah.

I understand that.

You know, you, you also represent a company.

I want to remind listeners, this is not an infomercial for spring wind.

We're not looking to tout you.

We're looking to have your expertise here.

As someone who's been working with Arabs and importation and contam,

all, all the issues that we're interested in when it comes to testing.

Are there any agreed upon standards that we have in the United States?

Are there any particular levels that, that are mandated that, you know,

important herbs are supposed to meet or, um, levels of pesticide that

are acceptable or not acceptable?

Uh, what's the question, what's the story with.

Well, there's a, there's the legal question.

Uh, and then there's, you know, in terms of import, and then there's also the

question of what a person, what a company feels they should do or want to do.

So those, those are two separate questions in terms of some people think that,

uh, at the FDA checks all these, uh, these Arabs coming in for pesticides.

And unfortunately that's not true.

You know, we've been in business now for 25 years, I think they've

maybe tested about two or three Arabs that we, uh, that we've imported.

So we've imported thousands and thousands of herbs, and they've never

tested them for pesticide, but we do.

And so the question would be what would the.

What would they say if they found some and, uh, I, on the samples, I don't

believe they ever found any on any of our, uh, of the samples they tested.

So that was never an issue, but it was like I said, so few, if they had found

any, the truth is they would have to reject the shipment because there's

no acceptable level for pesticides in Chinese, in most Chinese herbs.

So if they find any residue at all back there go, they should, that

shouldn't be the case, whether that actually happens or not.

I truthfully don't know.

So they have a test it's about four.

They test the FDA test for about 400 herbs when they do tests 400 herbs

or 400, 400 pesticides, 400 stuff.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, it says for about 400 tests, they do have certain levels for certain items.

I think for the goji berries, they have, uh, you know, forego, cheetah.

They have some levels, they have some levels for our ginseng,

for sure of certain tests.

And they have actually have a list of pesticides that you have to test for.

And, but they accept, uh, some of the Arabs, they won't accept any, uh, some of

the pesticides are not acceptable at all.

For example, a DDT is not allowed in any amount, but, uh, the other pesticides

they'll, they'll have a level, you know, that they've determined somehow

is acceptable for that particular item.

Uh, so, but the truth is if an item, if an item is not specified and

doesn't have any levels established by the, uh, the FDA, then they

should not be allowed in the country.

But, well, it sounds like the FDA does such little testing on these.

I mean, some, you know, it's basically a moot point.

It sounds like the, the, the onus on this falls to whoever is

bringing these herbs to market.

If that's something that is even of interest.

Sure.

And I think we should be really clear here because, you know,

if you go to the grocery store, do you eat out at a restaurant?

And when you're eating foods, a lot of them will have pesticide residues in them.

Of course.

And so some companies might think small amounts of pesticide residues

are not really harmful and, uh, and, and impossible to avoid.

And therefore they don't put a lot of effort into that.

And that's, I think a perfectly legitimate point of view, depending

on how you, you know, how you look at things for us, you know, I agreed that

probably really small amounts of certain pesticides are not really very harmful.

Um, but if you're taking them day after day, then maybe they are slightly harmful.

And also, you know, I never wanted to be in the position where I

had to decide, okay, well, what level are we going to accept?

And what level are we not going to do?

A bunch of companies can do that if they want to for, you know, for the different

pesticides and for the different herbs.

You know, for example, if there's an herb that's hardly used at all and it has a

little pesticide on it, you know, then you might think it's, that might be okay.

And that might be okay for some of the, for certain companies, they

might make that determination.

And I think it's perfectly legitimate.

Uh, yeah, we just didn't, we don't go do that.

Uh, that canopy that we just say, we just don't accept them, that they have.

Okay.

So, so for spring wind, your, your bottom line is if there's

pesticide residue, you don't.

Uh, by and large, that's the case.

And if we do accept any with any products with, uh, pesticides,

then we put it on the website and people have to check a box.

That's saying that they realize that this, this item does have pesticides.

I did test positive for pesticides.

So it sounds like this is something that, you know, every company probably has

their own testing protocols and their own, um, policies on what's acceptable.

And what's not, is that, is that a fair statement?

It is.

And I, and I think that's a great thing because that way people can choose, you

know, They can choose a company that matches their, what they care about.

You know, if they don't care that much about it, or they think a

small amount of pesticides is fine and then that's just fine.

Or if they think, you know, I've heard people say that they think

all the pesticides are, uh, are destroyed in the cooking of the herbs.

If they believe that then, then maybe they don't want to pay extra for all

the pesticide testing that's done.

So I think it's good to have different companies with different approaches

to this and, uh, you know, in each, and they're all legitimate.

It's just what you want to do this which one to do.

So probably the thing to do then is whoever you're purchasing your herbs

from, just ask them what your testing protocols and if there's certain levels

of contamination what's acceptable.

Exactly.

And I think that, uh, you know, people, if they don't care at all

about the best side issue, then they don't have to ask that question.

But if they do care about it, then it would be good to know as opposed to.

You know, companies all say that they test for pesticides, but it'd be good

to know exactly what they're doing.

You know, what tests they're doing and what levels they accept.

Uh, those are, those are good questions to ask what they test for pesticides

and what you do with the results.

How does that, how does it impact what you actually sell?

Exactly.

And also can, can I see them?

Can I see the test?

That would be, that'd be, that's something I would, I'd want to say, you

know, cause, uh, the test every lot or do you just test them once in a while?

So w you know, I've heard about LA testing.

What does that actually mean?

Well, uh, usually it would mean hopefully for all the companies that, that in

the U S what we do is we, before we purchase a lot of herbs, we get, uh, a

sample, uh, and we tested for pesticides before, before purchasing it each lot.

You know, every time we bring one in and a lot is how many years.

Oh, no, a lot is one or so for every, every a sort of say, for example, we

have done great and you bring it in.

And your first downgrade is called 0 0 1.

And, uh, you test that light.

You brought in 500 pounds and you, and you test it.

And then of course, it's very important if you're testing for pesticides, that

you're tracking your loss, because if you bought 500 pounds and you tested

500 pounds, then you can't sell 700 pounds of that lock, you can only

sell 500 pounds because that's all that you verified our pesticide free.

Do you pull samples randomly from the lot?

How does that work?

Yeah, there's a fairly complex equation that you have to calculate depending

on the size of your lot, the number of packages involved and that kind of thing.

So we usually taking from at least three different places, but it can be up to five

or 10 different places that you're taking.

Or what about organic.

I, I mean, I've spent some time in China, you spend a lot more time

in China in some ways when I think organic, I don't often think of China.

I often think of, you know, places that, that often have a lot of contamination.

Uh, how do we know that we're actually getting organic herbs from China?

I mean, we could ask that same question here in the United States too.

I realize that I'm not particularly trying to single out China, but I know that a

lot of people have concerns about this.

Sure.

Well, my experience with organic, I can only tell you about that in China is

that most of the organic herbs that come from China are not grown organically.

They're grown in a, in an area that's declared organic.

So for example, a company might, uh, purchase the land or the

right to a land of an old.

This is, might be, you know, 15, 20 square miles of a mountainous area.

And they don't allow any pesticide use in that, in that area.

And they pick the herbs out of there, uh, and they can actually sort of wild.

What is that called?

Like woods grown, you know, they can run, they can plant it's well Wildcraft

would be picking what's already there, but they can actually spread

the seeds themselves as well in these areas and then go in and harvest it.

And then everything from that area is considered to be.

Now the issue that we found early on, and I don't know if it's as bad nowadays,

but it was pretty bad for a while.

Was that people would, I think, do this legitimately, uh, say for example, they

got some ShaoYin to you in the, in the wild, you know, in on this mountain.

Uh, unfortunately they, they picked 500 pounds of, uh Shandu and then they'd go

out and buy another 500 pounds and mix it together and then they'd have a thousand

pounds of organic uh ShaoYin to you.

And they really only had 500 pounds and it was all mixed together.

Yeah.

So it's hard to prevent them from doing that.

So you'd have a mix, a mixed blot.

I decided early on was that we would always test, uh, organic

herbs for, for pesticides.

Uh, and unfortunately we found, I would say in the old days it was

about 50% of them had pesticides.

So we would obviously just reject those now.

It's not so bad.

I still find them.

I originally just rejected a lot of organic or so it still happens.

Uh, now whether that was, you know, drift from a neighboring, a farm or

something, you never know because organic doesn't mean pesticide free.

Organic means that they're, they're certified by an organic agency for

growing things in a proper manner, not using certain pesticides, not using

certain fertilizers, that kind of thing.

It doesn't mean that they're pesticide free.

There could still be some drift.

It could still be some, uh, pesticide residues left in

the soil, that kind of thing.

And they can still be a certified organic.

Nowadays people are growing herbs, organic in China.

I know I've been to several farms where they're doing that.

Some of them have applied for the international certificate.

You can get one for the USDA, uh, and so that they can sell these.

But a lot of them are just what they call China, uh, China organic,

meaning that they're not certified by, uh, an independent agency

just by the Chinese government.

Right.

And that usually includes that they've set aside this area of land and,

and that includes those, but it also includes people growing, growing checks.

I see casino the way that people used to grow Chinese herbs in the

old days before there were pests.

Hmm.

What about the issue of heavy metals just to get back on, on the organic thing?

So I think that if, if, if people want to purchase organic, it's great.

They should check the quality.

Cause sometimes the quality of organic, you know, some of these

farmers that are now trying to grow these things organic had not done.

So in the.

And they, you know, they're learning how to do it.

So I suspect that organic, we grow nerves will get better and better as time goes on

as they get those processes figured out.

Yeah.

How they figure, you know, they got dependent on pesticides now,

are they going to get independent?

That's the society.

And then the other issue is just to make sure that they're tested for pesticides.

Cause I think people are buying organic and they think

these are free of pesticides.

And like I said, it's not necessarily the case at all.

So, uh, I'd be really, really careful, you know, just ask to see the pesticide test,

uh, for if there's something is organic, then, then there shouldn't be, uh,

somebody should be testing it for pets.

Yeah.

That, you know, I mean, in the United States, we would

think of that a little bit.

I mean, that just seems counterintuitive.

We think about it differently.

We figure, oh, why would there be pesticides on organic?

But the, the points that you make here about sometimes there's

cross-contamination or drift or, you know, residues in the soil or

sometimes things get mixed together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot can happen between the farm and the.

And the export dock.

Yeah, there is that, there is that, and there's a, you know, and there's

a, and there's a, a, you know, a financial incentive to do that

because our organic herbs sell for much more than the, than the regular.

So back to that issue of, of heavy metals, that's something we hear about a lot,

and there's not a concern about that.

Yeah.

So when we talk about heavy metals, we should, uh, we should, uh, be very

clear, and this is something we should be clear about most of the time you

want to separate your discussions between the prepared, prepared

medicinal substance and a raw bar.

And this is especially important for, for the, uh, for heavy metal.

Uh, and the reason I say that is because obviously what metals matters.

Let me, let me just go back for one instance.

The reason that people don't want pesticides is because they

cause all kinds of bad things.

When you, when you eat them, you know, for example, they could, they're,

they're carcinogens, they affect the reproductive system and, uh, and, and

cause other kinds of, uh, medical issues.

But there's another reason for not using, uh, the pesticide Laden herbs.

And that is that you're trying to push, uh, an industry in a

certain direction because the most harm, uh, for using pesticides

is, is in the local environment.

And it's the kids who live around that area and the pregnant women in that area

where these pesticides are being sprayed and they get into the water and into

the air and into the soil, that's where they're going to cause the most harm.

So, you know, if you think about it that way, then pesticide use

even a small amount on your earth.

May indicate a larger amount in the local area where it comes from.

So for, for pesticides, that's, you know, that's something to

consider obviously for heavy metals.

No, one's putting heavy metals on, uh, on plants.

Uh, they just come, they, they get the heavy metals

from the air or from the soil.

Uh, so it's a, it's a different, uh, it's really a different kind of contaminant.

The other issue with heavy metals is that, uh, the important thing about

heavy metals is, is in the final product.

So you can have a lot of heavy metals in your herbal material, as long as they

don't get into the final product, then there are there they're not harmful.

And so when you say you're not getting into the final product,

how would, I mean, how are heavy metals transferred into a final.

Well, there's different kinds of products.

If you're just grinding up the herbs, uh, and you're making them into a

tablet or capsule or something like that, then you're going to get all the

heavy metals that are in that earth are going to be ingested by the person.

Now, how much of that is, uh, is bioavailable and how much

actually goes into the person.

That's another issue.

And it's something that probably needs further study, but if you're

cooking the herbs, then uh, then in your cooking them in water than only

the things that are water-soluble are going to go into the solution.

And most heavy metals are not very water soluble.

And so you could have on earth that has a lot of heavy metals, but if

it, uh, if you're, if you're at a cocktail, then the liquid probably

does not have that much heavy metal.

But if you were to, if you were to grind it or eat those herbs themselves, yeah.

Then you'd be in a lot of heavy metal.

In the 1990s, uh, this was a big issue for the, for the

concentrated granual companies.

Uh, there were several companies that used to use the ground up herb

as the carrier for their extracts.

And so when they made the, uh, when they made the extracts and they tried to

export them to Europe, then they found that the heavy metals were, were too

high, uh, for the European standard.

And so they had to switch their carriers to, uh, to a different carrier, you know,

to either potato starch or corn starch.

And, uh, to this day, most companies now use potato starch or corn starch,

or at least the companies in Taiwan.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

When I first thought about it, I thought, yeah, why not use the ground up herbs?

But if, if that is actually where the source of the heavy metals, I was

just, you know, I was just thinking, yeah, use the ground up herbs.

You're going to get a little more of that herb substance, but you're also

going to get anything that's in there.

That's heavy metal contempt.

Sure.

I mean, there are some herbs that you wouldn't want to do that with

because they should be cooked.

You know, they're not, they shouldn't be eating raw just because

they're they're chemists, chemical constituents, for example, Aconite

would be an example of Arab.

You'd never want to, you'd never want to grind it up and eat it.

That would be, that'd be a foolish thing to do.

You could, you could use it externally, but not internally.

Exactly.

So, uh, so for heavy metals, if, if you're a, but if you're, if you're buying

a product that is going to be taken directly by the patient, then you should

know what the heavy metal count of it.

And it should have passed that heavy metal test.

There are no standards by the way, for them to us.

So generally, uh, you probably want to compare them with the European standards.

So what is the European standard?

Oh, it's different for each of the heavy metals.

You can just type into Google.

What's the European, uh, what are the standards for heavy

metals in, uh, in Europe?

And you'll know it goes by category and it goes by specific product.

Yeah, so you can find things, you'd look up mint, for example, and then you have

an idea of what, uh, what they allow, what their heavy metal limits are permit.

All right.

What about the issue of sulfur?

Is that an issue?

Let me see.

So, you know, as I mentioned, when, when we first started, uh, the herb shop, we

found that almost everything was Salford back in those days, it was really bad.

I mean, slowly you can get an herb, you open up the bag and you just

smell this terrible softwares.

Now, luckily that's changed.

You know, awareness has been brought.

I suspect that most of that awareness came from the west to China and they,

and they, people started requesting herbs that didn't have sulfur on them.

And, uh, and so, uh, and so I think we effected change, you know, us, us, uh,

herb companies in the west did that, uh, spring wind w would have been a

very small factor because we're such a small company, but some of the larger

companies also, uh, got into this idea of.

And I think that really pushed, uh, the whole market in China because they

said, well, if it's not good enough for them, why is it good enough for us?

And, uh, I think they started to say, well, we don't need to sell for either.

Uh, and they began to realize that sulfur mostly just makes the earth look

a little better, that kind of thing.

And not necessarily there are health issues with having software on the herbs.

Well, first let's talk about what it means about what kind of sulfur gets into herbs.

It's not the same, you know, silver is, is everywhere.

It's forget it.

It's, it's one of the most common elements in the, in the universe.

So it's not, uh, it's not something that's, uh, that's not everywhere.

The, what we're worried about here is sulfites and, uh, and because some

people have an early reaction to so fights, the most common reaction is

in about 5% of people who have asthma.

They'll get a, they'll get an asthma attack or asthma attack will worsen, or

they're they're conditioned in general.

People with a certain allergies tend to sometimes be a little more

sensitive to the sulfites as well.

You probably remember back in, I think it was in the nineties that they had

that big thing where, uh, uh, all the salad bars, they were praying, they were

spraying them with sulfites and that prevents the salads from turning brown.

But a lot of people got reactions from this.

And so they outlawed that you can't, you can't do that anymore.

And salad bars.

So that, that reaction is similar to the same one that some people get with wine,

uh, because sulfites are found in wine.

Now they can be found just a process of the fermentation of the wine.

So they're naturally occurring, but also they add them in, uh, as a preservative,

uh, to preserve the flavor sometimes, you know, prevented from getting more acidic.

So, so if it's in that form are definitely not good for some

people they'll not have a reaction.

In Chinese herbs, that's not the form of, so nobody's sprays

sulfites onto the Chinese herbs.

That's not what happens.

What happens with Chinese herbs is after they're picked generally

most herbs in order to slice them, you have to soak them first to get

them soft and then use license.

So in this process of soaking, uh, there's a big chance that they'll

get, uh, if you leave them are sitting around, they'll get moldy or be

subject to insects, uh, infestations.

And so people would sell for the herbs, uh, to prevent that.

Also of course, sulfuring makes the earth look nice and white.

And, uh, there was a great market for white herbs in China.

I think that that's, that's becoming less.

So now that people are really.

Uh, white earth is no better than an Arab.

That's a slightly colored.

So this is an improvement.

So, uh, the take the herbs that are either slightly, still slightly moister

or, or are already driving, they put them in these large cabinets and they

burn sulfur on the bottom underneath them and the sulfur sulfur dioxide

gas WAFs up, uh, through the herbs.

And, uh, when those herbs they get caught the Soaper down.

So it gets Cottonelle the crevices of the herbs, and it helps

prevent the insect infestations.

And also, like I said, keeps the urban nice color.

It also keeps the herbs soft and this is good for a lot of the, uh, several

herbs that are difficult to slice.

So in the old days, everybody used to do this with downgrade.

They'd always sell for the dung way, because they would say, oh, you can't

slice it if you don't celebrate.

But nowadays they figured out ways to slice it so that we

seldom see down way helper day.

So sobering has gone down a lot.

There's still certain homes that we have some trouble getting and getting unsolved.

For the only way you can get them is you have to go, you have to have your

supplier go directly to the farm and get that herb early on before it gets offered.

Uh, because the farmers don't w don't want to take the chance of losing their crop

to mold or insect insect in destination.

Yeah.

I might be wrong on this, but it sounds by and large the way they're doing it with,

uh, you know, just burning some sulfur and letting that, that sulfur dioxide

wifed up, it sounds fairly innocuous given that it helps with pest control

and it might help with a freshness.

So that that materials don't get lost.

Yeah.

You might think that, but you know, for us, for me, the way I thought about it,

I don't know how accurate this is, but I just thought why do something to the herb?

If you don't have.

No, I'm just to make it look better.

We don't really care, you know, there's other ways to prevent bugs

and you know, it's a natural product.

Occasionally they'll let you get a bug or two, but yeah, I mean the pH of the,

uh, of the herbal change, then a little bit, we don't know what other, uh,

I've seen some studies that suffering reduce certain, uh, components of the,

of by show and by shell with sulfur.

So I'd say it's best to avoid it whenever possible.

In terms of the kind of reaction there's never been a recorded, uh, that I've

ever heard of anybody having that sole fight reaction from Chinese herbs.

I'm not saying it never happened, but at one point I asked the guy who was the

head of the California FDA about that.

And he said, there's never, there was never a reported adverse

event of, of somebody having a sulfite reaction from Chinese.

That was several years ago.

And I don't know if that's changed, but we've never had a customer ever

complain about that in the old days, you know, before we were conscious of

that, we certainly sold a lot of Salford or, you know, and now, now, like I

said, it's not as much of a problem.

Well, over time, things change and, you know, and you kind of

get smarter about what you're doing, you know, what to look for.

And it sounds like the herb companies in the states have had some impact on

the, on the practices over in Asia in terms of how they're growing and how

they're and how they're processing.

Oh, definitely.

Definitely lots of things in lots of areas.

So all the companies here should be applauded for that.

Uh, that was a good thing.

If we can push the industry in a certain direction, then that's always

a, that's always a positive yeah.

And better for the people that are living on those farms and around

all those, uh, chemicals and such to really helpful for them.

I mean, it's important for us in our patients when I'm thinking about, well,

I was going to say downstream effect, but it's actually an upstream of.

All those people that are affected by, uh, by living around that kind of poison.

Sure.

I'd like to get into granules here.

You and I were having a discussion the other day before we got the podcast gone

here about granules and concentrations.

And I mean, there's just, I've been using granules for awhile.

I, I didn't really use them much until I went to Taiwan and they were so in use

there, then it was so convenient and I saw a lot of people get better at just,

you know, just taking granules that when I came back to the states, that's primarily

the way that I use herbs these days.

But there's all kinds of issues that, that we were discussing the other

day about this thing, about like a five to one concentration there.

Most of them were sold as a five to one concentration and.

Uh, you were telling me that is like a dream that it's five minutes.

There is no such thing.

And yeah, I don't want to get into that, but before we do, how did this five

to one concentration things show up?

Was that a marketing thing?

Where did that come from?

You know, I only know a rumor about that.

I have no idea where five to one came from.

So the idea when people hear five to one, what they assume, and I think

what the companies were also saying at some point was that they were to make

one kilogram of concentrated granule, that they were using five kilograms

of the raw herbs to start with the.

So that would be a firewall to what we call a, um, you know, a source

herb to a final product ratio.

Um, so the story I heard, and again, I don't know if it's true or not,

but it requires a little bit of an understanding of how granules are made.

So if you'll bear with me for a moment, I'll go through that.

Take us behind the scenes here.

Yeah, I'll do it fairly simply.

I'm not going to put in all the steps, but I'll, I'll give you enough.

So that you'll know that the later points will be, will be clear.

So what they do is they take the herbs and they prepare them and clean them

and do whatever they have to do to them before they're going to cook them.

And then they put them in these huge extraction vets.

Now these bats are not like, you're not like the, uh, the cooking pot on your

stove in that they're, they're close to.

And the, the ball toils are generally captured at the beginning

of the extraction process.

So they put these herbs in these large bats with a lot of water, and then they

cook them at a specified temperature in every herbs should probably have

a different temperature and they have these stirring mechanisms so that

the solution gets stirred to, uh, increase the amount of extraction.

So you get, um, optimal extraction.

Uh, then they cook it for a specified amount of time.

Again, it would be, uh, they have something called a standard

operating procedure for each product.

And that would be, that would list, you know, what temperature, how

long they're going to cook it, you know, whether it's stirred or not

all kinds of different factors.

Uh, how about whether they're going to capture the volatile oils and how

much bulk oils they're going to capture all that kind of stuff would be, uh,

would be part of the, uh, the SOP.

So then after the extraction, they'll take the herbs out of the extractor

and all this left then is the cocktail.

And that's a siphoned down into a concentration tank.

And in the concentration tank, they use a very low, low pressure.

It's not quite backroom.

Obviously we can't achieve a perfect vacuum, but it's a, it's a low pressure

situation so that the water will evaporate out of this, uh, extract,

uh, without using too high, a heat.

So normally water boils at around a hundred degrees, but because they

reduce the pressure inside there, the water boils at about 60 degrees and

they can, uh, achieve substantial, uh, extraction of the liquid at

a low temperature, which is good.

Cause high temperatures destroy more of the components and they

want to do it at a low temperature.

So they boil it down to about one 10th of the original amount of water.

Now that varies greatly with the product, because if it's a very sticky

product, then they would do, obviously they can't boil it down as much.

And if it's a very thin product, then they can blow it down.

At that point, the liquid is then pumped into a place where it's a,

it's a thicker liquid at that point.

And, uh, and they, and they pump it into a place where they'll mix

it with the carrier and there's several different ways to do that.

And, and we won't go into all that at this point, but basically

that's how they make the granules.

Then they might, they might add in some methylcellulose or something

like that to make up a nice flowing granule that will, uh, that, that

you'd want to actually, uh, use.

And so they mix it with their carrier, which as I mentioned

before in the old days was, uh, was the roar of, and nowadays is

mostly corn starch or potato starch.

Or if you go to mainland China, then the extracts coming out of there are all, they

use a multi-day extra as a, as a carrier.

So that's the process.

Now, what was the original question?

This thing about a five to one concentration and why.

If we are actually mixing well, and further question, if we're actually

mixing up our herbs based on thinking that each one's a five to one extraction,

they've all got the same amount of herbs, then re we're going to miss the mark.

Yeah.

If you're basing your doses on the extraction ratio, that might be

a, that might be a, uh, you might be barking up the wrong tree.

So first of all, let me tell you the story, which I, I, I don't have

any verification, but that I heard, uh, actually two different times.

And that is that.

So in the old days they would, uh, take this.

Remember I told you they, they did the extraction and then they, uh,

would concentrate the, the liquid down and they would make it about a

10th of what its original volume was.

So if they had had a hundred liters of liquid to begin with, they would

cook it down until it was 10 liters.

Okay.

So they, at that point, they figured, and I believe correctly that they

had a 10 to one extract, but it was a liquid extract of 10 to one.

So what they did then is they figured well in those days, uh, that they knew

by the final weight of their product, that half of the product was carrier.

So they said, well, we had a 10 to one extract and now half

of the product is carrier.

So it must be a five to one.

Okay.

I could see where that math would come from.

You can see what that math would come up from, but it has nothing

to do with what we call a, uh, sourcer to final product ratio.

So tell us about that.

All right.

So like I said, a sourcer to final product ratio means that in order to make us,

let's just take a specific or let's take simpler, like sung yet, which is the

So if you took a, maybe they took like, say they want to make a

hundred kilograms of, uh, uh, final.

They would have to start off with about 1500 pounds of, uh, of some year

in order to make a decent extract.

Now they could use as much as they want.

They could use if they wanted to make a hundred, they could have used.

If they use 10,000, they used a thousand kilograms and they want

to make a hundred kilograms.

That would be a 10 to one, a sourcer to final product ratio.

So they use 10 times as much of the RAR to make the final product.

Uh, so 10 oh a thousand, a thousand kilograms of, uh, sung roar to

make 10 kilograms of Sonya extract.

And that would be called a 10 to one.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, uh, a 10 kilogram or a hundred killers.

Sort of, I meant to say I have no idea what I did say, but I meant to say that

they were going to start off with a thousand and come out with a hundred.

Okay.

I'm just checking because I'm kind of a simple guy from

Missouri and my math sucks.

So I just want to make sure I'm getting this right.

Yeah.

So 10 to one, basically 10 times as much rawer to, as they end up with

it as final product, but they could have used 20 times or they could use

30 times, then they could call it a 30 to one extract that they want.

But the truth is in this whole extract process that we just talked about, there

is an optimal amount of each or, uh, that should be used at the beginning in

order to come up with the best granule.

In other words, the granual that doesn't stick together at the end, a

granule that has the, about the same component ratio as you would get.

If you cooked on your.

That's what we're looking for.

We're trying to duplicate, I would assume what happened in a cocktail formula.

Yes.

So we're trying to return to duplicate, right?

Except make it easy and convenience.

Exactly.

That's the, that's the big advantage.

So that's, that's what a source or to final product ratio is.

And the truth is in order to make these, these granules, what I've seen

in the companies I've talked to the range goes anywhere from about one to

one all the way up to 20 or 30 to one.

Wow.

Yeah.

So if you're doing us really stickier, if something like a show

D Wong or shoe D log, that's good.

That's a, that's a good gooey one.

Yeah.

So when you cook that down, after you've done the concentration,

you end up with a gooey mess.

So you have to add so much carrier into that, so that it won't just be a gooey

mess that you diluted all the advantage you gained from the, uh, from the

concentration you just lost when you put all that, all that carrier back in there.

So it would be what more like a one to three or one-to-one or, um, somewhere

between probably 1.5 to one and one to two to one or something like that.

Maybe a two to one.

It depends on the, you know, on the process.

Exactly.

And I'm sure every company has slightly different procedures.

Uh, as we mentioned that they all have their own cooking standards.

So, uh, what they are, it might determine the exact ratio there.

Yeah.

And what they're using as a carrier of those things are all, are all factors.

So, and then another earth, like, uh, for example, song, juror, you know,

that twig of a, a Mulberry tree you've got to use about 20, 20 kilograms

to make one kilogram of battery.

You want to end up, you'll end up with a very weak extract.

And so every Arab is different.

Every herb has its own extraction ratio.

So then the question becomes, uh, the question that's, uh, brewing in

everyone's mind when they hear this is, well, gosh, all these things

have different extraction ratios.

How, how am I supposed to dose these things?

Exactly.

And I would say this, first of all, even if they were all five to one extract in

terms of sorcerer to final product, that still would not, you would have be known

none, the wiser in Germany, in terms of your, uh, in terms of your dosing,

you still can't assume that it's five times more powerful than the RAR would

have been had your cooked it because you're comparing two very different.

You know, I have freshly cooked decoction is not the same as a, uh, an herb that

has gone through the process that I just reviewed for you with the extraction,

the concentration, all the water being removed, and then in mixed with a carrier.

So once you do that to the product, isn't is not the same product, right.

It's similar.

But if we think about it as like a freeze dried decoction, that's,

that's a real error on our part.

Yeah.

That would be a little different.

I'm not, you know, and I don't know enough about the whole processes

of a freeze dried or, I mean, that's what I mean is we're getting

this, this granulated product.

We often think of it that it's like a decoction, but in some ways, and this

is part of the conversation we had the other day, you were saying, it's, it's

really kind of a different medicinal and it's like a new kid on the block.

It's this new thing that's shown up in the past 40, 50 years.

Sure.

And certainly it's based on it's based enough on the tradition of

Chinese medicine, the way herbs have been cooked through the ages that

we can still use the experience of our predecessors to use these herbs.

But in terms of dosing, we need to, we need to rediscover that because when they

were doing dosing of as, uh, they were, they were all doing it the same way.

Basically, you know, they were taking a raw herbs and putting

them into decoction and then the person would drink the decoction.

But what we're doing now is something quite different.

And we need to figure out exactly how to, how to dose these things.

And it gets, it's a very complex subject and something we, we w we

to actually go into it today would take far too much time, but at least

we can introduce the fact that it's not as simple as you thought it was.

It's not five to one in that if you want to give somebody 10 grams, that

doesn't mean you give them two grams of.

Uh, so because the five to one thing was not true.

And even if it was the difference in the processing between art

decoction and a granual is such, we need to re invent the wheel in this

case in terms of dosing, because there's, there's an unknown in this.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of unknowns.

So, and I understand that that this is complex and we might need like

a whole followup show for that.

But are there some basic guidelines that you could give us?

I know that in your book notes from south mountain, you, you, I

believe you speak about this a bit.

It's all about granules and isn't there a section in the, um, the new

formulas and strategies on this.

Yeah, both of those exist.

And those are based on, on how these herbs, how I observed

these herbs, uh, you know, the granules being dispensed in Taiwan.

Now, Taiwan has the longest use of these herbs.

Aside from Japan, this whole process of, uh, granulation of

the herbs was invented in Japan.

Uh, their experience is a little different than that in Taiwan, because

in Japan, they only did the formulas.

They didn't do single herbs, so that, uh, simplified things for them.

And what they would do is for a formula, they would gives

me around six grams a day.

So they were saying six grams.

Uh, but they weren't claiming five to one.

As far as I know, they were just saying, here it is, we concentrated

this thing down and you should take about six grams of this a day in Taiwan.

And I, I'm not sure the dates of this, but at some point they were

into the granules were introduced into Taiwan, I believe in the fifties.

And then.

At some time after that.

And I, again, I forgotten the dates.

It was accepted as being reimbursable, uh, through the

insurance, on a program in Taiwan.

Taiwan has a single pair, health insurance.

Yeah.

They have an amazing health insurance, health, health insurance

system there it's oh my God.

It's really good.

It's really good.

It covers so much.

And it's incredibly affordable.

Yeah.

And, um, and they, but they don't cover the re-orgs.

They only cover the granules.

So granules really took off in, uh, in Taiwan at that

time and became very popular.

So very few doctors did not use avoided using granules.

They almost all used grain.

Right.

Because it's reimbursed.

So yeah, because of, because the patient would like it, cause they would, they

would be free if they got roars or bulk herbs, they would have to pay for it.

Yeah.

So I studied with a number of different doctors and I assume

you did as well in Taiwan.

And I sort of, no one ever came out and said, this is what we do,

but I looked at what they did.

And I tried to figure out how they were making the calculations.

And I came up with a system, uh, where, uh, usually they would use their

total amount of herbs is somewhere between 10 and 15 grams a day.

And then they would divide that up between the herbs and the formulas.

And what I also noticed is that in general, they would use one gram a

day as a standard dose for most herbs.

Now, as you're saying, you're saying single herbs or formula singular, so yeah.

Yeah.

So say for example, they wanted to give somebody a Grapey tongue.

You know, this person had insomnia, they wanted to add a couple of single

herbs, uh, give you two examples.

So they wanted to add to gauge outcome, which is the vine of the Hershel

and, or, and they wanted to add also maybe you injure, it's probably gala.

And, um, and so they would first say, well, how much of the

single herbs am I going to add?

And they say, they're going to give it for 10 days.

Uh, like I said, normally they would give a one gram per day.

So if it was a normal blurb, they would have given 10 grams of that single

herbs for a 10 day, for a 10 day dose.

So let's, let's pick another, what's another good sleeper.

Oh, um, I don't know.

I'm, I'm a fan.

I'm a fan of the edge out tongue once out swans.

I run.

Yeah.

Okay.

So let's say they wanted to add extra swans out or any of them

it's already in the Grapey time.

Right?

So they're going to add extra ones out, right?

So swans orange, they would just dose it as one gram a day.

So they add 10 grams, this one's hour.

And that's the beginning of their, that's the beginning of their formulation

process because that's a normal herb.

And so we're just going to add 10 grant for 10 days, one

grand per gram gram a day.

Yes, the first we're doing the singles and then what they usually do is they then

calculate, okay, how much I got left with my formula, then I'll put that in there.

And so the calculation would be okay, so we'll get 10 grams.

This one's out right now.

is an Irv.

I usually use around 30 grants.

So I can't just give one gram a day.

I'm going to give a one or one and a half or two grams a day.

So let's say they decide they're going to give one and a half

grams a day for the age outcome.

And what they're really saying when they say that is, gosh, the age out, the

tongue is the kind of earth that you cook it in the water and not much comes out.

So I'd better use more of the concentrate here.

And so they're figuring that it's slightly weaker and they want to use

a larger dose because they normally would use up to 30 grams a gauge out.

So they would use 1.5 grams of farm per day.

So that's another 15 grams.

If we multiply that times a 10 day dose.

So, so far we've got 10 grams of this one's hour and we have

15 grams of the age outcome.

Now.

They want to use yen jury.

Now you injure in general, it's used in small amounts.

And so for that, they didn't want to use a gram a day though.

We use a half a gram a day because it's an Erbitux used in small amounts.

And so they would only use a half a gram a day.

So pretend days that would be five grams.

So we got 30 grams of single herbs.

So that leaves them with another 70 grams for the 10 consider.

They wanted to give 10 grams a day.

So they wanted to give a hundred altogether.

They've already used 30.

So now they have 70 grams left for the, uh, for the formula.

And that's, that was the way I saw people doing it.

Now, sometimes they've been used to formulas and, uh, and there's some

other distinctions that we should make, which we'll do in a second.

So that's the general, is that, uh, was that clear enough

that people could follow?

I think so.

Well, I mean, I followed it, but then again, I spent a

fair amount of time with Dr.

John there and watched him do the same thing, but I, I, I, I think our

re I think our listeners can follow.

Well, they'll let us know.

Uh, anyway, so that's the, that's the general process

that I saw happening in Taiwan.

And people would use sometimes 10 grams a day and sometimes 15 grams a day,

or sometimes somewhere in between, depending on what was going on.

There's a few other factors that have to be considered.

And that is one of them is the a, is that not all herbs or concentrates?

Some herbs are only made as a, uh, a ground up powder.

So for example, yeah, for example, sure.

Gal, uh, Longo movie yeah.

Died, uh, died.

Your shirt is probably that in that category too, isn't it?

Yeah.

So almost all the minerals, most of the SAPs and also the, the animal

products often are not, uh, are not.

Uh, concentrates.

So there's two reasons that things won't be concentrated.

One is that they're not very water-soluble so that it does

no good to make a concentrate.

If something is not water soluble, because in effect what you would be

doing is cooking it and water, taking out the water and you'd be left

exactly with what you started with.

So there'd be little point in making a concentrate of them.

The second reason has to do with price.

There's some herbs that are so expensive that you can't afford to concentrate them.

And I would think that things like Tron bay move, which is for Alaria

fall into that fall into that Kerry TN, she is another that generally not

concentrated because it's so expensive.

What about the issue of heavy metals with those then?

Cause that's a good question.

Yeah, they should be, but all the, all the calls, the straits

for all tested for heavy metals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

It should be something that, uh, that you can get the CFA from your

supplier and they should have, uh, they can show you that heavy metal cap.

Okay.

I should point out that when dosing, these are.

Obviously, if it's something like 10 cheaper than just dose it, the way

you would, if you look in, uh, in the material medical, they'll tell you

how to dose the powder of T and G, so that you'll have no problem with that.

You just do what they say.

You know, it's usually like one gram a day, or up to two or three grams

a day in some cases, but that's so you would just figure that out.

That would be easy, but if it's something like sure.

Gal, which is not usually taken as a powder, then you have to make a, you

have to make a calculation yourself.

So normally we take about 30 grams of sure.

Gal.

And if you cook that in a decoction, you have to kind of guess, well,

how much of that actually goes into the solution is probably not

very much, maybe one 30th of it.

So maybe if you're going to get 30 grams a day, then maybe you just

give one gram a day of a I'm sure.

Gallup.

So it's kind of the opposite of what you would think as you would think.

Well, this isn't concentrated.

I have to use more of it, but the truth is that's not concentrated and you better

not use too much because it's pretty hard to digest this stone or a shell.

And when you think about the stones and shells, I mean, how

much is actually being clicked out?

Well, that's what I was saying.

Yeah.

You're probably about one 30th or one 50 at the board you actually put in there.

Actually it shows up in the, in the, you know, there's all this

into the solution could be less.

Okay.

Are there any resources that you would point our listeners toward if they

wanted to find out more about how to think about dosing, these gradients?

So like you said, at the beginning of the notes from south mountain,

there's a, uh, there's a discussion.

And then also in formulas and strategies in the introduction, there's

another, another discussion of that.

Now this is an evolving discussion because as I mentioned, I think this is

something that we're still discovering, you know, In your practice, you may

discover that a certain herbs need larger doses in granules and certain herbs,

maybe don't are going work as granules.

I've had, I have doubts about certain herbs in granules, and this is again,

just a personal thing that I, that I haven't tested out thoroughly.

It would be nice if, if a lot of people did take these things into consideration.

For example, using towel is an herb.

That's not supposed to be cooked for very long because it, its

components will break down.

So there's, it's very difficult to make a concentrated extract

without cooking for quite a while.

Those herbs are cooked a lot longer than we cook them on the stove.

Yeah.

I mean, you Xing Sal you could just about put it in hot water and drink

it as a tea and that's pretty good.

That's true.

Yeah.

That's the way I used to do it.

So, um, so I, I don't tend to use using towel as a granule for that.

And then the same thing is with go tongue, you know, go tongue for it's

a blood pressure, a usefulness, or its ability to lower blood pressure.

Uh, it's not supposed to be cooked more than 15 to 20 minutes.

And so again, I think that maybe a granule is not the best use of that.

Or so sometimes I'll have people, if I'm giving granules, I'll have them take

those herbs and just cook them up as a decoction and wash down their granules

with, uh, with that, I think it's a good solution for a problem like that

herbs that should be cooked very well.

Was I answering your question beginning of the way?

Oh, you know, I mean, this is the kind of thing.

When you answer one question, you open up a can of worms and you know, there's a ton

of other questions, but I think given that we're already an hour into the show here,

that's probably enough for the moment.

And we've got some resources that people can go look at.

Oh good.

We got through about half of the questions we thought we would.

Yep.

Well that, you know, and then we get to do a part two later.

That's always fun before I let you go though.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, you've been at this acupuncture and Chinese medicine,

herb thing for a long time.

Uh, this is just a slight little switch of topic and then we'll wind it down, but

I'm just curious to know if there's any trends that you see in the development of

Chinese medicine or east Asian medicine.

However, we're supposed to say it these days.

Um, any trends that you see here in the west that you think we should be paying

attention to, uh, do you mean paying attention to, in terms of we'd better

watch out for these or that these are a good thing, you know, either or both.

Okay.

All right.

Now I've really opened up a can of worms here, but yeah, so I'll, I'll

do it fairly, fairly quick, but I think that, um, there's some, what

we see is a tendency now for, uh, alternative medicines to, uh, to kind

of sneak into Western medical models.

Um, and I think that this has both an advantage and a disadvantage.

And so, uh, for example, the Cleveland clinic does quite a bit with Chinese

medicine, as far as I know, and I'm not intimately connected with it or

not, but I think that, that that's a model that, that probably will expand.

Yes.

A lot of people are talking about that one.

Yeah.

So it's great because it brings a lot of attention to Chinese medicine.

It provides us with a place where we can get data about Chinese, about the

effectiveness of Chinese medicine.

So these are all really good things.

One area that I would, I would caution us as we go forward is that we don't

want to drift too far away from Chinese medicine, you know, in, uh, somewhere in,

in a walk along the river, a doctor Dr.

talks about this a little bit.

And he talks about that.

A lot of people in China when they talk about this , which means that

the kind of the melding of Chinese and Western medicine together,

that, uh, what they really end up doing is doing Western medicine.

But using Chinese herbs.

And I think that if we do that, we're going to be losing a lot of, a lot

of the advantage of Chinese medicine.

I mean, the strength of Chinese medicine in my mind is that

it has such a long tradition.

And this has to do with the fact that the Chinese culture and a written

language has existed for over 2000 years.

And we can go back and see the, uh, the experience of thousands

and thousands of practitioners over all this period of time.

Yeah.

Talk, talk about evidence-based medicine.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So if we, if we throw away all that experience and just start using the herbs,

because it's a diuretic or because it, uh, it lowers blood pressure, it does this,

or does that, then I think that we're going to, we're certainly not going to

see the kind of results that, uh, that practitioners of Chinese medicine have

seen in the past and that we could get.

In the future.

So that's that that's, uh, that's where we have to be careful as we combine ourselves

into the, into the, into the model of medicine that we have in awareness.

. And what about on the other side of it, some positives that you see?

Well, I think the attention that we're getting is certainly a positive thing.

Okay.

Well, Andy, I'm going to let you go.

I so appreciate you taking the time to sit down with us and we'll get you back

on again, and we can go even further, especially into this granule thing.

Are there any other resources?

Um, I mean, I already asked you about some, is there anything

else that you might have on your website about this stuff?

I don't think anything.

I don't think anything yet.

No, not yet.

Not yet.

Okay.

At some point I'm going to be doing a thorough article on dosing, trying

to bring it more up to date with more research that I've been doing already.

But, um, I'm not there yet.

So I would say hopefully within six months I'll have an article and I'll

try not to limit it to our website.

I try to make it available for people on a larger, a larger, yeah, that'd be great.

Maybe as you get closer to publishing that we can post it on your, on your, do you

have a site where we can qiological we could put it on qiological and maybe get

you back on here to talk about it too.

There we go.

That'd be fun.

All right, Andy, thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, great to talk to you.

It's a privilege.