Ability is a spectrum, yet a spectrum still has two ends. So, in order to create a universal design inclusive for all, we should first understand the needs of everyone in the “all.”   

How should I communicate with a person with a disability? Is that even how I should refer to them, “person with a disability” or is that not inclusive? How about viewing disability as a spectrum instead of a binary, would that help or trouble a person with a disability in accessing accommodations? Who can even access accommodations, I mean I don’t have an official paper proving that I need it, can I still get support? If you previously asked one of these questions or if you cannot find answers as you read through them, then this episode is for you. 

In this episode, our host Susu B. had the pleasure of having Ray Peart, the Autism Program Coordinator at York University as the guest on an episode that aims to digest different aspects of ability. Ray’s expertise in conversations around UDL, also known as Universal Design Learning, allowed him to propose social, lingual and academic perspectives on approaching ability.

Resources

York University's CHREI Inclusion Week 2025

University Services

• Assistive Technology Lab 
• Bursary for Students with Disabilities (BSWD) 
• Student Accessibility Services (SAS) 
• Accessibility, Well-Bring and Counselling (AWC) Centre at Glendon 
• Disability Services App 
• Employee Well-being Office (for staff and faculty)  
• Library Accessibility Services 
• Interpreting and Notetaking (SAS) 
• Strengthening Transitions for Students with Autism Spectrum Disorders Program 
• Campus Services and Business Operations (CSBO) – CSBO is responsible overall for planning, development, expansion, alteration, maintenance, and operation of all physical facilities (buildings, grounds and plant equipment) for the University. 

Student Groups & Clubs providing services 

• Able York 
• Active Minds @ York University 
• YFS AccessCentre  
• Critical Disability Studies Student Association 
• Holland Bloorview (HBY) 
• ASL @ York 
• Creative Arts Therapy Association at York University 
• Devices 4 Disabilities 
• Jack.org at York 
• Reach out at York (RO) 
• Team Unbreakable at York University 
• World Parkinson’s Program (WPP) 

Inclusion Lens: Event Management Tool 

• Inclusion Lens - an Event Management Tool designed to assist York University in engaging all peoples in events! 

Host, Susu B.: Hey YU. Welcome to your future favorite podcast, if it's not already well-being. And you with your host Susu B. Many of you might have heard of the student accessibility services, whether that was as you directly interact with it, heard about it from a friend, or simply glanced at the last page of your course's syllabus. But as we approach March marking York's university's inclusivity week, we thought an episode that discovers the different services, potential challenges, and ways to do better with student accessibility would be a great fit for our topic this month. In this episode, I had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Ray Peart, the autism program coordinator at York University and PhD candidate in the Faculty of Education. Ray's work also expands to understanding universal design and inclusion. In this interview, Ray taught me that inclusion, accommodation and spectrums are all words we use when we refer to accessibility. However, truly understanding the definition of each word is what could shift our community to applying inclusivity. I really hope you can join us on this journey. A few mindful minutes can really make a difference. So, let's dive into our conversation with Ray.

Susu B.: All right, Ray, how are you doing today?

Ray: I'm doing well. How are you?

Susu B.: I'm great. I'm literally shaking. I'm just so excited about the episode today. reframing ability. So, before we jump right into our topic today, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and your role in the student accessibility services?

And so I get to look good, but, um, it's all about them. And, you know, I'm here to talk about this. In no way am I going to speak for them. I been given a mantle to speak alongside.

Susu B.: Right.

Ray: So, I'm going to be mindful in terms of how I approach it, but I'm very privileged and I'm very honored to be here.

Susu B.: Yeah. And we're very privileged to have you. I really want to de familiarize the typical understanding of ability. So, I want to know, how would an expert's opinion like yours describe the differences or maybe the connections between ability and disability?

Ray: I'm just going to look at it from my perspective. It starts with attitude. It really is subjective. We live in a society in which we have certain boundaries and parameters which help us define what is considered normal or neurotypical. And it's attitudinal. And those structures that we exist in, that we learn in, that we live in, are all based on those attitudes and perspectives. And so I think where I'm going with this is that the threshold between able and disabled, it's a spectrum, right. When does it become an impairment? When does an impairment become a disability? When it can no longer function within a structure that purports to be inclusive. It's when these structures and when these attitudes push back and say, you're not welcome because you're different. So, my framing is that it largely is attitudinal and structural. There really is no official difference. Right. For me, like, I mean, I could quote the DSM and say, you know what? Well, the DSM says this, but it's a medical model, and a medical model is a very contained perspective that is, in some ways. In some ways, largely outdated. But I think it really starts with attitudes. And I think if we had an attitude shift, we wouldn't be having these conversations around disability and ability. And I remember using the phrase, we need to get to a point where disability becomes a dirty word. And I don't think that was received in the way I wanted it to be received, only because when we say disabled, we say it with such acrimony. We say it in a way that, is infested with bias, is infested with all of these prejudices, and it doesn't become a word that serves the individual, and largely, it's imposed on the individual, and then individuals tend to internalize that. I can't tell you how many students I tutored who would always talk about how, unsmart they are. And, you know, when I talked to people and they said, you know, what do you do as a part time job at York? I go, well, I tutor students with disabilities. And the response was, oh, that's so kind. And so, it's those attitudes, that prejudice, really? Yeah, those prejudices that I can relate to from a racial context. And so, it's largely attitudinal. Like, nothing is fixed.

Susu B.: Yeah, I really like how you mentioned the DSM, because, like, personally, like, I have a background in psychology. That's my major. I'm thinking about how the purpose of having, like, a DSM, like, I took in one of my courses, is, like, the fact that you want to, like, put policies that can actually help those individuals, not in a, typological approach. That's like, you are this. You are that. That's why I'm talking about, like, defamiliarizing the definitions, because you really think about it. It's this general understanding that everyone is just supposed to have access to everything equity wise, not in a way that, like, oh, this person is this. This person is that. That's why, like, defamiliarization is the perfect word for this. So, I really like your answer to that. Some people may think that the idea of reframing ability and abolishing, the binary of able versus disabled, and I really like emphasize the word versus, is rather a way to dismiss the struggles of a person with a disability. What can you say to challenge that perspective? Or perhaps you agree with it to a certain extent.

Ray: I think language is important in the sense that we still use the word disability. We still use the word, and I know this is a bad word, handicapped. We use these words that are not acceptable, but I think they're necessary. And they hold utility because they still highlight the fact that society still needs to change. And the fact that they exist means that there's a problem. If we are dismissing these words and kind of issuing their existence and saying, no, you know what? This person's not disabled, which I agree with. But the fact of the matter is, let's not remove the word from a vocabulary and start to use it in a different context. Let's use it in a different context where we can learn from it and we can learn about our history and our attitudes and shift those attitudes, right? And when we talk about a spectrum of ability, we're still working in spaces that are very dyadic. And it's this either-or context that you said the binaries. Right And versus. Right. And we're not a society that accepts fluidity. Look at the reaction to pronouns. Look at the reaction to people being queer. Look to all of these identities.

And it's like, my point is, is that the spectrum isn't a spectrum. Instead of looking at it as a linear spectrum, we need to look at it as plural and I and non-dyadic, and basically all of these intersections that don't have a linear path. And we need to begin to visualize it. And that's why even when we talk about language and we talk about the autism spectrum, I'm hesitant to talk about the autism as a spectrum. Yes, it is. There's not one confined understanding of what autism is. But again, when we talk about a spectrum, it's like a beginning and an end. And identity isn't that there's no end to identity. And as we evolve in our discourse, in academia, and we can challenge discourses like the DSM, right. We'll begin to see that, yeah, it's endless. And that we won't be using this idea. This spectrum might take on a different meaning where it's nonlinear.

Susu B.: No, I'm actually surprised because I had this view that, like, the word spectrum makes everything inclusive. Like, I thought, like, when you talk about someone, like, being just autistic, you just think this is offensive. You should say, like, that person has autism spectrum disorder. Thinking spectrum, like, sounds better, which is really not the case. So, I'm glad that I'm talking to you about this since you're the autism program coordinator. So, like, you have an expertise in this.

Ray: Well, I think even autism spectrum is a step up from ASD. Right. and this idea of disorder. But I think autism spectrum still limits us because, it's still a carry off of the ASD moniker. Slowly but surely, we're stripping away. Right. And we're making movement. Right. And yeah, I get frustrated when I still hear ASD.

Some of us are ahead of that conversation than others, and that's fine. We're always going to be like that. But if we can take the time. Like, I struggle with pronouns still, but, yeah, like, I try. And as long as the intent is to try and. And to really make an effort to understand the other so that the other no longer becomes the other and does truly become inclusive in your space, then it's okay. But I also think that when we talk about inclusion and equity, we have to ask ourselves on whose terms, who are the people defining equity, defining inclusion, and what that looks like. And I think we all have to have a part in that conversation. And I think some of my colleagues would agree, and I, like a lot of people would agree that historically, people who we've intended to serve in terms of that conversation around equity, they haven't been included in that conversation. So, we've spoken for them. And that's the part, you know, in my role. It's contentious for me, internally contentious, because I'm always holding myself accountable. I'm always trying to ensure that I am doing my best to represent. I'm not going to call myself an ally because I think to self-proclaim myself an ally is a bit arrogant. I will work for the rest of my life to earn someone calling me an ally. Yeah.

Susu B.: Yeah. I really like this idea of, like, practical allyship. Like, instead of just like you did something like, oh, I'm an ally. Yeah, my job is done here, but it will never be.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think because, you know, being neurotypical, I have family members who are on the spectrum, but it doesn't make me autistic. And so, I think we just need to be careful about how we use that word, allyship and support and really humble ourselves. You know, looking at this as a privilege to support and work with populations who I'm not. Like, who I'm not a part of.

Susu B: Right. And so, yeah, that's wonderful.

Susu B.: That's a wonderful way of thinking. I think language becomes a sensitive topic when referring to or communicating with a person with a disability. Many people wonder if they're, quote unquote, saying the right thing. How would you advise those people to navigate communication with a person with disability?

Ray: I think just ask. You know, it's, I think one of the things that we make a mistake of. And, you know, when I write reports and I write papers, and I say, and I've changed this, when I say the autistic community, it's not a monolithic community, right. And, just like any racialized or community that's disabled, it's not just one. They're complex, they're beautiful. So, I think, the best approach is to ask the person, how would you like me to refer to you in this context? And you can be honest with me, you say, because I've struggled with it and I'm mindful that I don't want to offend. I think it's okay to have that conversation, to say that, because it shows you where the person's grounding is. It shows you where the person's framing is right, as opposed to making assumptions.

Susu B.: Yeah, I think I can relate it to what you mentioned. That was a great example about pronouns. When you go and ask someone, what are your pronouns? They're just like you, showing I care about that in a way. Have the other side of the coin, really, in the next question, which is insensitivity with language. I think sometimes on social media specifically, there might be a little insensitivity with language, such as comments that use the autism spectrum disorder as a praise, for someone who has a particular interest or skill. So, like, for example, someone was, like, really good at something, they would just go like, you probably you're autistic, is like, you train a lot, you do this a lot. What is your opinion about such a topic?

Ray: It just reminds me of pathologizing and how when we, someone is autistic and does something well, it's like, oh, my God. Like, we're all so stunned and surprised. Autism again, going back to binders, we put it in this dichotomy of, you know, the visual autistic person who can't speak and can't function for themselves versus the brilliant savant. And that's a practice of language. I think what we do with our language is that we create these dichotomies of what it means to be autistic. It's either you do, or you don't. That's why we had these, terms, high and low functioning. We think the high functioning is the super smart person who's going to become the next president, or the low functioning who struggles to find shelter or ends up in a police cell because they couldn't communicate, and we perceive that they didn't understand the world around.

Susu B.: Do you think, like, this type of humor, if I'm going to classify as humor, and it doesn't have to be like, on social media, like, some people do it, like, in their interactions in day-to-day life. Like, a typical person would be called, like, oh, you probably have autism because I see they're good at something. Do you think, like, this type of humor is rather inclusive in a way? Because, like, I'm using it as a praise. Like, I'm using, like, autism as, like, something that's good. Like, when you're good at something, do you think we could view it in this sense?

Ray: I see what you're saying. Okay, that makes sense. No, I don't. so it's like saying it's the kin one, you know, when we get distracted a little bit and it's like I'm having an adhd moment. And I think when we talk about, you know, I am having an autistic moment or I'm having, , an ADHD moment.

Susu B.: Right.

Ray: I think what we do is we undermine the, reality of experiences that individuals with an official diagnosis. And maybe this is where the DSM is.

Susu B.: Right.

Ray: we underestimate what their lives are like within a society that is not prepared to receive them or not prepared to receive them fully and that fully, that unpreparedness a lot of the times is intentional. I think, you know, kind of a shout out to the university is that they have given, especially, like, with accessibility services, they have been so supportive, they have been so mindful of our space and how unique the space is and consulted and talked to us. They supported our evolution and our path to raise awareness and to critique existing structures and benchmarks and things like that. And not a lot of people see that. So, I just wanted to put that out there. But kind of return to your question. Yeah, I think it in some way is offensive. What do you think?

Susu B.: I think it is. I'm a Gen Z, so I understand. Like, sometimes humor could be like, I'm trying to make someone feel included. Like, if my friend group has a person with ADHD, for example, and we say, like, ADHD moments. Personally, especially, like, with my psychology background, I really hate, like, especially with OCD. Like, oh, I let the intrusive thoughts win. Stuff like that. Like, I really, like, I don't like that at all. When I saw, like, these things on social media, I thought, this is clearly not inclusive. But at the same time, I was thinking, is that maybe the modern way of trying to, like, accept everyone? I feel like it could add a pressure on, like, the person who's on the lower end, like, quote unquote. Like, if a person who's actually autistic and. And not really good at something, they would think, like, I don't fall into that category. People are laughing about that. I'm, good at something. So, I think, again, it's a really complex topic, but when it comes to making people feel included, I don't think that's the approach that should be taken.

Ray: Yeah. And I'm obviously not Gen Z, but it's like the equivalent to me saying I was selfish and blind at a moment, and I had a Gen Z moment.

Susu B: Right.

Ray: It's the exact same thing.

Susu B: Right.

Ray: And it's mapping my pathologies into that humor, which is going to trickle and infest. So humor is actually a conduit to transmit ideologies. and I know I'm probably looking at humor in a serious way, but it's true. Right.

And I think we need to be careful. Just like, any form of communication, I think we need to be careful. Right. And it's the whole idea, like, when people say, you know what you should learn just to take it a joke and learn how to look at life humorously.

I'm often wondering, you know, what those people's lives are like, because oftentimes I find when people say that they're coming from a place of privilege and they're coming with critical blind spots that allow them to say things like that. I think if we're going to make, you know, use different types of language that we construe as humorous and in whatever context, I think it has to come from the community going back to language, right. And it's, you know, using the b word, for women. Women have taken ownership of that word.

Susu B.: Right, right.

Ray: And, you know, re appropriated it and taken it away from patriarchy.And so I think it's, um. I remember I was. I was dating someone. She was Lebanese, and we were talking about this in terms of her culture and this idea of the b word, right. And it, and she said it humorally, but she was. I know she wasn't joking. She goes, I can say that word, you can't, right? And it's like, she was absolutely right. And it's, just this whole idea of ownership and, you know how I can now stand on my own feet and say to you that it's okay for me to use this word, but it's not okay for you and not feel like that's a dangerous space to be in. Humor can be a very powerful tool.

Susu B.: Right.

Ray: And it's also dangerous.

Susu B.: Right. Yeah. I feel like we use like, multiple perspectives and I think that's, that's the thing with humor, that like, everyone has like, an opinion on it. So, I feel like we really covered like, a lot of those. I really want to connect more to the student accessibility at York University in particular. So, what are some of the services offered that can help students who identify as disabled or are in need of accommodation?

Ray: We have accessibility counselors, who help students navigate academic accommodations within the classroom. We also have programming, we have a wonderful person, who does that, does a whole fleet of programming for students who might see the world in different ways or who might have disabilities to help them navigate information in a way that mirrors their strengths. We have myself who specifically, exclusively works with family students, faculty, prospective students and other institutions and, you know, maybe building their own, autism program or just wanting to find out more information or, you know, putting them on a path to put that transition plan into place. We have an academic skills coach who does some wonderful, work with our, autistic students. She does phenomenal work. We have an assistive technologist, who does great work, who supports, all of our students, in terms of, you know, accessing the right technology for them. And we have, um, work study positions. We have students from faculty of Ed and other departments.

We have social work students who also work in support of students. And we have, note takers. Yeah, right.

Susu B.: Yeah. I'm actually like, part of this service because I think it's pretty simple. Like, it's just like, you go to class, I go to class anyway. And then I just like, take my notes, upload them. That's simple. And I think it's pretty cool.

Ray: And you see, you see, that's where you just nailed it on the head. It's your attitude. Your attitude is, um, fantastic. And when we have attitudes like that, things become more simple. Back to your question about our fleet of services. So, we have a range of programs. I would say off the top of my head, we probably have eight programs, and we have a wonderful transition program that supports first year students coming into how to transition into the university. We have connection meetings um, that are exclusively set up for autistic students and we do work with other departments. you know, there's the autism mentorship program run by Jim Bepco and we're going to hopefully our collaborative efforts with them.

Susu B: Right.

Ray: They're a fantastic group and um. Yeah. And I really need to draw attention to our accessibility counselors, because there are people like the students see, but not in terms of the whole university. People a lot of people don't see, but they are the conduits between a student and faculty when needed.

Susu B.: It's a whole system like the beehive. Like it's just like, just like a whole system. It's wonderful. So, like these services are great. Who can access them though? Because there is like this view that a person who is medically and legally considered in need of accessibility services is the only person who can access these services. Like if you have like the paper basically, right.

Ray: If you feel a student might be in need of support from our department, please refer them, even if that student doesn't have documentation, whatever, we want to talk to them.

We want to support them.

Susu B.: That's wonderful.

Ray: we might further, the process along and recommend that the student might get documentation just for other reasons because documentation in some capacity, and I'm speaking outside of the university like in terms of OSAP is important. But we take students where, you know, they have no documentation. But we'll put in something called temporary accommodations. Until we can further look and understand what's going on with the student. At no point are we ever going to say to a student, no, you have no documentation, you can't come here. It doesn't make sense to turn someone away. It doesn't.

Susu B.: Yeah, no, that's wonderful. And I know we have been talking. About the students for a while now, but I know that your expertise lies in conversations around the universal design. So, I would like if you could also cover how the professors and course instructors can get involved with UDL or the universal design and learning.

Ray: Teaching and learning Commons is a very good resource for understanding UDL. You can contact us as well. I hesitant about using the word expert, but I have strong familiarity with it. But I think UDL is a mindset and it's an attitude. It's not just about having one space for accessibility on your syllabus and then you jump off there. It's about how do I create an accessible environment and how does these syllabi reflect that? And how does my attitude reflect a universal design and for learning?

I think with the unique, perspective for our department is that universal design and learning does not replace academic accommodations. Right.

Susu B.: They work together.

Ray: They work together. and so, I kind of want to. Yeah, just put that out to your listeners that um, if you're unsure of how they work together, please reach out to us because the academic accommodations are a legal right for the student. But yeah, I think UdL, it's beautiful and it's emergent. And you know, I feel for the professors because the thing is, you're caught in a rut between a rock and a hard place, right? And it's like, like I want to open up my course. I want my students to succeed, right? But how does this sort of, go up against academic policy or academic integrity and things like that, right? So, these are the conversations that departments need to be having with faculty and faculty and departments can always, like I said, teaching commons and, our department. And there's a plethora of literature out there that shows how the two can work together. But yeah, it's just asked, you know?

Susu B.: one of my professors would always tell us that he will give everyone extra time, like double the time for like a test, and would say, oh, I'm doing this. So, like, if you are a person who is in need of accommodation, but you're not sure if you qualify for like this accommodation this way, it's gonna be like fair. So I think like that's like a really simple thing that you could do as like changing like an exam time just to make sure like everyone is like having like this extra time just for anxiety or anything.

Ray: Right? So let me ask you a question. Uh, that's a good example. So, say the professor says, okay, a blanket rule. It's like, you know, you can have, a full 2 hours. So, say it was, say it's only 15 minutes and professors can have up to 2 hours for everybody.

Susu B.: Right?

Speaker C: Now, what about the student who has, an academic accommodation for double time, does the student get 4 hours?

Susu B.: The view of that particular professor was that the person who is in need of accommodation would have like, double time. So, like, let's say that's the 2 hours, and then a person who's like, does not qualify for accommodation would still also have this extra time just in case. Perhaps they do need accommodation. Like, oh, some people just have an anxiety that's like, like, it's just like episodic. Like, it's just like sometimes you have an anxiety, but they don't have it in a way that they would get like, actually like, diagnosed. What do you think of that?

Speaker C: Say you're the student with the accommodation, right? Okay. And you have double time. Then the professor says, well, everyone's going to get double time. How do you feel? Like, do you feel seen?

Susu B.: I will probably have my own anxiety that, like, if everyone is getting double time, then maybe I will, like, particularly need extra time.

Ray: And there's the anxiety that comes up and there's the idea of being seen. So, we look at it philosophically and holistically. Are you completely seen as a unique student with academic accommodations if everyone is getting what you're getting? Right. and I'm just asking the question. I'm not kind of drawing a conclusion. Yeah, I understand, but it's the idea of being seen. When you sort of conflate the UDL and use it to mask the need for academic accommodations, what you're doing is you're potentially, and maybe unintentionally rendering someone's disability invisible. And so, it's, again, people are living with disabilities. It's part of their identity. And so, are you saying that this aspect of your identity is going to be erased? because then I'm going to bring everyone up to everything, and now I expect you to perform the same as your colleagues because you're all on the same. That's not what academic accommodations are.

Susu B.: I think it really connects to the question we asked earlier about, like, this idea of like, abolishing, the binary of, like, able and disable. Because I think that was it. That's a great example of that. Like, you just like, oh, everyone might be on the spectrum of, like, ability, so let's just give, like, this extra time to everyone. So, then you're just like, you're thinking in a very not like, good way. Like, um, like, I think just like you're trying, but at the same time, you might be a little bit dismissive of like, the actual person who needs an accommodation.

Ray: Right.

Susu B.: Right. So, yeah, that's. That's perfect. I think that's it. That this concludes our conversation. Is there anything else you would like to add as a final, message to our listeners?

Ray: Just back to the subject of pronouns. I forgot to introduce my pronouns. So, pronouns are he and him.

Susu B.: Mine are a she and her, just in case.

Ray: I apologize for that., I just want to say thank you for this opportunity. Um, student accessibility is here. We've been here for a while and we are, as our name suggests, accessible. I'm hoping that people do want to, um, reach out if they have any questions, or if you're a student and you're listening to this and you think you might be in need of some support, you can talk to people. yeah, and, I'm around. And so That's all I have to say. Thank you for this.

Susu B.: Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Ray. It was great interviewing you today.

Ray: Thank you.

Susu B.: You bring a lot of expertise, and we'll see you guys in another episode.

Susu B.: I really want to thank our special guest today, Ray Peart, Autism program coordinator and PhD candidate, in the faculty of education. I really enjoyed our enlightening conversation. Thank you, Ray, for being such a valuable resource. If you are a student at York University, you can connect with student accessibility services by visiting the website at students.yorku.ca/accessibility. On the website, they offer expertise in disability related supports and highlights appropriate, necessary, and reasonable academic accommodations. You can also find links to all the services Ray mentioned in the show notes for this episode, along with more valuable information, tips and resources. Visit our website at students go.yorku.ca/wbpodcast. Click on the episode link and look for the episode reframing ability. This episode was co-produced by the Well-being and YU podcast team. Our podcast coordinator is Prabhleen Luthra. Our technical editor is Ethan Muir and I'm your host, Susu B.

And as usual, I'll leave you with the code of the day. When we talk about a spectrum, it's a beginning and an end. Identity isn't that. There is no end to identity. Thank you for listening.